62 2 mins 9 yrs

fireworks thrown at police lines in north belfast

Thanks to Mahons for covering the rioting in Belfast that has disfigured the place for THREE nights in a row, with dozens and dozens of police officers injured.  He is right that the UVF are behind the violence – well, some of the violence. But even the unionist loathing BBC report that “hardline” Republicans are also playing a role in the street violence.

The IRA were taken into Government because many nationalists CHOSE to vote for their political alter egos, Sinn Fein. This has allowed them to wield power, direct cash into certain “community organiations” and look after their former front line “volunteers” (aka terrorists) The UVF and UDA did NOT win the votes of unionists, thank god. Instead they have been marginalised through the ballot box and their ability to share the financial largesse that Sinn Fein can is much reduced.

BUT they have learned a key lesson of the “peace process”….VIOLENCE PAYS.  Sinn Fein sit in Government on the bodies of 1700 killed by the IRA. UVF “commanders” and those ever so well placed (AND well paid) ….ahem…community workers in “interface” areas may reckon that all they need to do is keep on rioting in the well placed anticipation that they WILL be bought off. This is all about gangster rule and in Northern Ireland the biggest gangsters of all sit in Stormont. When the PSNI cry out for politicians “to do something” do they not realise the sheer naivity of such requests?

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62 thoughts on “THEY HAVEN’T GONE AWAY – PART TWO

  1. So the UVF orchestrate rioting over a stupid bloody parade…but it’s all Sinn Fein’s fault?

  2. The proper comment on this is to outright condemn this violence and urge a full and robust PSNI response, not to engage in whataboutism. The PSNI should throw large nets over all engaged and drag the animals off and charge them.

    All efforts to increase tourism and attract investment are worthless when this tribal violence makes worldwide headlines. ‘They haven’t changed, go someplace else’ is the reaction of any reasonable person.

    Vigorous condemnation is called for and severe police response should be demanded. If this can not be dealt with quickly and decisively the UK government should ban all parades and protests including the one-hundred year commerations this month and in coming years. If the population cannot have a parade without rioting, there should be no parades. The UK government has a responsibility to protect its citizens from those who cannot control their violent impulses. Stormont is useless in dealing with this as the two major parties have history and links with terrorism.

  3. Of course, MourneReg. Didn’t you know?

    David, that was an outstanding piece of Whataboutery, equalled only by Nigel Dodds’ cringeworthy effort on the news last night…

  4. Hard to disagree with you, New Yorker. Perhaps a blanket ban on all parades for say, one year, might be the solution. Unfortunately, that would probably only result in even more violence from both sides.

  5. So even when unionists riot and hurt police officers its still all the fault of the IRA, who knew they were so powerful they even ran the unionist death gangs?

  6. Yes, EP. So, the British government had infiltrated the IRA so deeply that they ran it; the IRA ran the Loyalists; and the Loyalists ran riot.

    But it’s Sinn Féin’s fault.

  7. “BUT they have learned a key lesson of the “peace process”….VIOLENCE PAYS. Sinn Fein sit in Government on the bodies of 1700 killed by the IRA.”

    Surely the UVF don’t need to be taught that. Who has a big statue outside Stormont? Who is Craigavon named after? And what organisation did those two individuals found? The UVF. If you want to see violence or the threat of violence paying you have to cast your eye back a bit further than the Provisional IRA.

  8. The UVF is just doing what they were taught was a legitimate form of political discourse.

    Instead of persecuting, and executing the IRA/SF you gave them a seat at the table. YOU PEOPLE LEGITIMIZED ACTS OF TERROR as an acceptable form of political interaction.

    You reap what you sow.

  9. “The UVF is just doing what they were taught was a legitimate form of political discourse.”

    Troll, indeed. And who taught them this? Er, the original UVF!

  10. Semi

    An indefinite ban until people behave properly at such events. I don’t see what good these parades are. All they seem to do is whatever side has one is stir up the other side. At the end of the month some people want to commentate a bunch of insurrectionists; that only glorifys illegal actions.

    There are ways to deal with those who might act violently to a ban. But the government has to have the will to take appropriate measures. As I said above, I don’t think Stormont would be capable, so it is up to the UK.

    This must be stomped out. The UK has become a riot friendly country.

  11. it doesn’t matter who taught them, what matters is you the average citizen of NI who accepted it and reenforced it as acceptable behavior.

    You live in the environment that you have allowed, accepted, and in some cases endorsed.

  12. It isn’t new. The citizens of Northern Ireland have done it before hand and for a long time. Voting for the political wing of paramilitaries in Northern Ireland predates the Good Friday Agreement, Troll. In 1918 the majority of people in what would become Northern Ireland voted for the political wing of the UVF.

  13. SO?

    Just because you have a history of supporting criminals rather than prosicuting doesn’t change what I’m saying it reenforces it.

  14. Except that you focused all your attention on Republicans. Instead of persecuting, and executing Republicans, we gave them a seat at the table. And that we legitimised violence. The fact is that it was done a long time ago and crying about Republicans now will not fix this. The UVF don’t need lessons from Republicans on it. They just need to look at their own historical brethren.

    We are trying to figure out how to fix the problem and if you think it started with Republicans in the 1970s and culminated in the Good Friday Agreement then it shows a lack of grasp of Irish history.

  15. ‘perfectly legitimate forms of civil disobedience that demonstrated unionist abhorrence’ at the rulings of the Parades commission. – Rev Mervyn Gibson of the Orange Order on BBC radio on Tuesday.

    Huh?

  16. “Just because you have a history of supporting criminals rather than prosicuting doesn’t change what I’m saying it reenforces it.”

    Fair play, Troll. So you agree the original UVF were terrorists who should have been locked up. The 20th century history of Ireland would have been a lot different if the British Govt of the day had the cojones to do that!

  17. The Troll

    Instead of persecuting, and executing the IRA/SF you gave them a seat at the table

    Only after the policy of excluding them and refusing to negotiate led to 30 years of bloody stalemate. Your solution was more violence. That’s the same position the anti-peace republicans offer.

    The lesson of the long saga of the north’s troubles is not that violence works but that it does not. It was only when the British government and Irish republicans were able to look beyond violence that any progress was made.

    What is happening in Belfast is outrageous and wrong sectarian hooliganism that always goes along with the Orange Order’s annual orgy of bigotry. It will stop when the minority of unionists who are still motivated by hatred stop their nonsense.

  18. Hang on.

    DV has always condemned all violence, loyalist as well as republican. He condemns loyalist violence again in this post.

    It’s in contrast to a couple of familiar names on ATW this morning who have tried to justify republican mass murder.

  19. the British should have dealt strongly with them in the past.

    Look most of you as usual are missing my point. You have a history and a culture that has embraced terrorism. Your bemoaning the consequences of it.

  20. “Look most of you as usual are missing my point. You have a history and a culture that has embraced terrorism.”

    Well done, Troll. Two in a row! You are absolutely correct – the very existence of Northern Ireland is due to terrorism and paramilitarism (ironically, the original UVF). This set the precedent and we are reaping the consequences now.

  21. Let us assume that time constraints caused this Loyalist violence to be mentioned by others with less alacrity than if it were Republicans. Certainly it is rightly condemned.

    The point is that violence doesn’t work. There is no united Ireland, despite the IRA campaign. And the people voted for SF in greater numbers once they entered the peace process. The majority of people are against violence, which is more than I can say for the advocates of worldwide war who visit this site often.

  22. and who advocates world wide war?

    Violence is the result of what happens when you don’t persecute terrorists whether on an individual or a national level.

  23. The history of terrorism and of sectarian violence goes back a long way in Belfast. It goes back much further than a century before the recent incarnation of the IRA and UDA etc.

    Blaming recent events on the Peace Process might make sense, but only if you had a complete lack of knowledge of the history of the 19th and 20th centuries, and before, too.

    For 12 July 1829, Orange Institution parades in Belfast were banned, leading to demonstrations and serious rioting in the city. This spread to County Armagh and County Tyrone, lasting several days and resulting in at least 20 deaths. On 12 July 1857, confrontations between crowds of Catholics and Protestants turned into ten days of rioting, with many of the police force joining the Protestant side. There were also riots in Derry, Portadown and Lurgan. In the summer of 1872, about 30,000 Nationalists held a demonstration at Hannahstown in Belfast, campaigning for the release of Fenian prisoners, but leading to another series of riots between Catholics and Protestants in the city. In June 1886, Protestants celebrated the defeat of the Home Rule Bill, leading to rioting again on the streets of Belfast and the deaths of seven people, with many more injured. In the same year, following the Twelfth Orange Institution parades, clashes took place between Catholics and Protestants, and also between Loyalists and police. Thirteen people were killed in a weekend of serious rioting which continued sporadically until mid-September and an official death toll of 31 people.[8] For more information see: 1886 Belfast riots.

    ( From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Belfast#Merchant_and_industrial_town )

    The rioters and their enablers will always have an excuse. The causes of riots are rioters. ( apologies to the late, great Jack Maple )

    These so called ” loyalists ” are the most anti British people on the face of the earth.

    They weren’t protesting, they were trying to murder policemen, and nearly did in some cases.

    You would like to see a cross community consensus in support of zero tolerance of any rioting. What are the odds of that happening?

  24. I think the only solution is to dismantle Northern Ireland entirely as it is a monument to terrorism. The Six Counties could be a “stateless” area – this should please everyone on ATW as:

    a) it will no longer be subject to British subjugation;
    b) there will be no united Ireland/papist rule of Ulster;
    c) the bloated civil service will all have to go out and get real jobs
    c) as the State is the enemy of freedom and progress, it will become the most prosperous region in the whole world.

    You can thank me in advance.

  25. A huge percent of the population of troublemakers is on the benefits, right?

    How about removing all benefits from the family of anyone caught in a riot?

    I doubt this is an original idea, but it would focus the mind excellently.

  26. Troll – The UK did prosecute terrorists (and they persecuted others, including nonterrorists). Then some courage, sense and decency all came together among many factions and the Peace Process was born and works.

  27. I’m not punishing anyone. No one has the ” right ” to any benefit. I propose a surgical withdrawal of benefit that might sort out the bullshit right quick.

    At least for the rioter himself – how about a lifetime ban on any benefit? Does that sound ” harsh “?

  28. The family thing is a non starter. Should you be criminally punished (which the removal of benefits is) due to the actions of member of your family?

    In terms of the removal of benefits to the rioter himself (or herself for that matter) I have only one issue with it. If he or she has no access to benefits (and due to criminal conviction probably limited access to work) and thus no access to income it will cause him or her to become even more of a criminal and turn to harder crime.

  29. If he or she has no access to benefits (and due to criminal conviction probably limited access to work) and thus no access to income it will cause him or her to become even more of a criminal and turn to harder crime.

    It’s largely a male thing, the rioting. It’s fun for these wankers.

    And those who commit crime are welcome to live in the jail.

    Or you can keep doing it your way.

  30. “It’s largely a male thing, the rioting”

    Not necessarily. You get the occasional wee Millie who thinks its fun as well.

    “And those who commit crime are welcome to live in the jail.
    Or you can keep doing it your way.”

    Instead we should turn to the solution that increases crime. Most of these wasters don’t care that they may be punished. People have been sent to prison yet it still has no deterrent on it. It isn’t going to be solved purely by policing and judicial efforts.

  31. The Peace Process did not work, and it was appeasement not a settling of anything.

    I don’t care if your Pro Ireland, Pro Britain, Pro Cheeseburgers on Friday. If you use violence as a form of political discussion you should be hunted down and executed.

    When a riot or a bomb in a pub is your methodology you are a threat to the general public, and need to be removed. Period.

  32. “I don’t care if your Pro Ireland, Pro Britain, Pro Cheeseburgers on Friday. If you use violence as a form of political discussion you should be hunted down and executed.”

    Unless you are Pro Israeli.

  33. It is wrong to give credence that the root cause is ” the Peace Process “. That may be the stated reason, but these weasels always have a reason, including that someone looked at them the wrong way.

    This has been going on for well over a century, on and off, with various permutations. It’s not new at all.

  34. Why is it that refugees from Northern Ireland are always able to settle down and become normal, productive and community minded citizens in their new lands of residence?
    Could it be that Northern Ireland is cursed?

  35. The Troll

    Henry you call terrorists holding public office progress?

    I don’t call elected representatives terrorists. Their mandate qualifies them to hold office under the agreement endorsed by the people of Ireland by an overwhelming majority.

    If somebody you considered a terrorist was elected legitimately President of the USA he would be entitled to take office. In fact many people in the world do regard some US Presidents as war-criminals which is just as bad. We all have our opinions but a mandate is the basis of democracy.

  36. Oh many people in the world regard some US Presidents as war-criminals, many people believe Hitler was right, many people believe you should come to Allah or die. Many people in NI believe voting for people that supported blowing up innocent women and children is right.

    They are all wrong.

  37. YOU….

    Did they blow up women and children? YES. Do you support them ? YES.

    You have blood on your hands.

    Phantom when the Brits march 5 million Irish into ovens and have themselves an Irish weenie roast you can compare them to the Jews until then they have no justification.

  38. I am not an IRA nor did I support doing it. You state that we vote for people who support blowing up innocent women and children. Can you name an IRA volunteer or member of Sinn Féin who supported blowing up and actively targeting innocent women and children? Yes or No.

    Also:

    Did the US Army commit the My Lai Massacre? Yes. Do you support the US Army? Yes.

    Do you support the My Lai Massacre? By your logic yes.

    You inhumane monster.

  39. 5 million?

    Thought it was 6?

    Do only oven deaths count, or does a monster state get any ” credit ” for famine, plague, bullets or nuclear bombs?

    There have been many near exterminations in history, some of them far more effective than that inflicted on the Jews. Do the Armenians get a free ride to kill the first Turk they see? Do American Indians have the right to whack the first bullshitting Pennsylvanian blogger they encounter? I can go all day with this.

    You have warped values, son. You gave a pass to terrorism, and no one else here really did.

  40. “Phantom when the Brits march 5 million Irish into ovens and have themselves an Irish weenie roast you can compare them to the Jews until then they have no justification.”

    What happened to “if you use violence as a form of political discussion you should be hunted down and executed”?

    Also when did the British, Palestinians and the Arabs march millions of Jews into the ovens. Israeli terrorism was almost exclusively not against the Germans.

  41. Yes, and some of it was directed against British troops.

    Those guys who played a huge role in crushing the Nazis.

    He’s a clown on this. End of.

  42. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The Jews get a pass at the founding of Israel because 5-6-8 million were gassed. and they don’t still do it today like my Irish brethren do.

    Only an idiot compares Irish suffering to what the jews suffered.

    Every time any one condemns Irish terrorism sooner or later sooner or later someone tries to justify their behavior by bringing in the jews.

    Look I get it, your all for planting bombs on school buses and in pubs. It’s the right thing to do in your mind.

    That is what your words state that your in favor of, and accept.

    Come near my house, my kids, and place them in danger for any of your causes and you’ll learn why such behavior doesn’t take place in the US.

  43. Th troll

    They are all wrong.

    Elections are the best way we have come up with for deciding who is right and who is wrong. I don’t like the outcome as often as not but I accept the validity of mandates.

    We can’t keep going over and over the issues that the people voted on when they supported the Agreement and confirmed in every election since when they rejected anti-Agreement candidates even when they were impressive people like David Vance. The people of the north are solidly behind the agreement and a few stone throwing boot-boys won’t change that.

  44. You support Terrorism. You just need to accept it. You can try and twist it up in all types of rules and justifications etc but you support Terrorism and the slaughter of women and children.

    So don’t lecture other people on it.

    Also, to go back to my earlier question which you have refused to answer. Can you name one IRA volunteer who supported targeting and killing innocent women and children?

  45. Henry elections are the right way, look were suffering the results of our last election. You vote em out you don’t burn them out.

    My they’re all wrong refers to those that set the fires

  46. The Troll

    Nationalists in the north grew up is a place where you couldn’t vote them out. It was a state state up with a permanent Protestant majority and elections were fought on that basis.

    Whatever you republicans and democrats may think of each other at least your differences have a political basis.

    You vote em out you don’t burn them out.

    And when the people you can’t vote out burn you out?

    http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/video/122685

  47. you follow the rule of law.

    you advocate the Hatfield and the McCoys, I advocate, Time, and Justice. It takes longer but fewer innocents die.

  48. let me give you an american example.

    For 100 years the communists and the conservatives have been battling for control of the US. With the election of Obama the communists won.

    The conservatives now have to fight to regain control of our country. We will do it an inch at a time if we have to.

    What we won’t do is plant bombs in the lefts watering holes, or kill their children.

    Over the past 100 years we have had factions break into violence on both sides. When it has happened, both sides hunted the perpetrators down and either killed them or locked them away forever.

    Violence happens, what you do when it happens is what counts.

  49. Yes because campaigning against the policies of a democratically elected government is exactly the same as campaigning against a brutal 800 year occupation of your country.

  50. “For 100 years the communists and the conservatives have been battling for control of the US. With the election of Obama the communists won.”

    There you have it. The recent history of the USA in two sentences.

  51. The Troll
    For 100 years the communists and the conservatives have been battling for control of the US. With the election of Obama the communists won.

    For 100 years the Unionist and the nationalists were battling for control of Ireland. We won. Ireland to leave the union altogether. So the country was partitioned and thousands of our people were corralled a fake state where they were excluded from government because of their religion. Inspired by the US Civil Rights movement they marched peacefully for justice and the RUC battered them into the ground which Orange mobs burned people from their homes.

    Violence was not the answer to address that historical wrong but neither was it the answer to use violence to re-impose the injustice in the first place. We know it wasn’t the answer because it was tried and failed for 30 years.

  52. We get it David, allow me to paraphrase:

    Nationalists voted violent Republicanism into government and the Unionist population saw that violence paid and that’s why they’ve been instigating riots the last three nights

    Astounding whataboutery which verges on excusing the riots.

    New Yorker, I believe that we have found some common ground. Have an indefinite moritorium on all marches until some learn to act maturely. In the absence of a complete ban at least make the organisers of marches and protests pay a deposit returnable after a violence free month in the marche’s / protest’s wake.

    Hang on.
    DV has always condemned all violence, loyalist as well as republic

    Yes and noPete, true that David condemns loyalist & Republican violence he however doesn’t condemn state violence because it contradicts his political narrative.

    Troll is contradictorily ranting about things he knows nothing of. Best he’s left to his own devices in such times.

  53. Troll

    Henry you call terrorists holding public office progress?

    You call them founding fathers so whats the difference

  54. Paul McMahon

    After an indefinite ban people may see in a clearer light that their parading was for no good purpose and only an excuse to attract rioting which harms innocent people who have more sense than them. That goes for both sides.

    Maybe they will find a better way to get exercise such as a charity run or a walk to raise funds for a hospice.

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