106 2 mins 9 yrs

Orangemen  march to Stormont estate  during  Saturday's Ulster Covenant centenary parade

My congratulations to all those TENS OF THOUSANDS of proud Ulster people who commemorated the signing of the Covenant 100 years ago. As one would expect, the event was peaceful and a demonstration that we remain BRITISH, to the chagrin of the usual whingeing suspects. I didn’t go myself as I have no interest in parades. I also see little reason to remember the past if one does not learn from it. I see plenty to celebrate in 100 years of British Northern Ireland but given that it now contains the IRA’s delegates in its government and continually appeases rabid Irish Nationalism, I figure I will skip celebrating that bit. I suppoons there are many lessons one can learn but from my perspective those parading have failed to understand that the one thing the British Government respects most is violence and civil unrest. Republicans get this and have excelled at rebelling, as is their wont. The steadfast loyalty of Ulster’s British people has been treated too often with cynical contempt by the goons at Westminster

Still, 100 and not out is worth a celebration….CHEERS. Our day has come…

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106 thoughts on “100 not out

  1. Perhaps you should contact the Guinness book of records. Looks like a record number of sectarian bigots in the one place.

  2. I see plenty to celebrate in 100 years of British Northern Ireland

    Except the fact that the sectarian state did not exist 100 years agor

  3. I see plenty to celebrate in 100 years of British Northern Ireland but given that it now contains the IRA’s delegates in its government and continually appeases rabid Irish Nationalism,

    Interesting that capitulation and appeasement to a threat of mass violence unless the express democratic will of the electorate was overturned is to be celebrated yet the express democratic will of the electorate which voted in referenda in the state that unionism wanted is not.

    Bizarre logic to come from a ‘democrat’

  4. David,wondering what you make of Nick Griffin being in attendance and The Sash being played passing a catholic chapel

  5. a better photo

    here

    it was huge, reports of crowd in stormont while the end of it still hadn’t left city centre, so theres no doubt about it the numbers were huge.

  6. I doubt he’ll answer Martin incereasingly David seems to put belligirent threads up on politics in the Northern Irish state and then refuses to comment on them. It’s eitheran admission of defeat in poltical debate regarding the issue or else a mechanism to wind up Irish Nats. I suspect it’s probably a bit of both.

    How’s that self – determination thing coming on Pete?

  7. Yes Paul,methinks the same,would also be interested in David’s opinion on all the UVF flags and banners

  8. //the one thing the British Government respects most is violence and civil unrest. Republicans get this and have excelled at rebelling, as is their wont.//

    Republicans? Home Rule was defied and Northern Ireland created by breaking the law, rebellion and civil unrest – by Unionists.

  9. ‘ As one would expect, the event was peaceful…’

    As one would expect, David resisted writing this until after the parades had passed.

    As one would expect, David resisted the urge to comment on complaints that the bands passing St. Patrick’s did not comply to the ruling set down by the Parades Commission, and have been criticised for their lack of respect.

    AND, as one is coming more and more to expect, David left it to an American to actually write about this first (nice piece Mahons), in case there was any controversy (Michaela McAreavey murder, Loyalist rioters etc)

    One now expects the usual ‘spare me your Republican cant’ comment from David. One wouldn’t expect much more. Hope you enjoyed your night out David. How do your compatriots feel, I wonder, that you come out when the sun sets, to ‘celebrate’ what they did?

  10. Nick Griffin has said “fenian bastards” on Twitter,the Orange Order for its own sake should distance itself from this buffoon

  11. Peter – It didn’t happen.

    Martin – Maybe Nick Griffin should apologise to fenian bastards for that.

  12. Martin

    The Orange Order and Nick Griffin are two cheeks of the same arse. They didn’t apologise for bringing Johnny (Mad Dog) Adair or Billy (King Rat) Wright to Drumcree so they would hardly apologise for a mere buffoon.

    When historians write about our time it will be notable that one major organisation in the north made zero contribution to the peace process and that was the Orange Order.

  13. Just curious, are N.I. Protestants true descendants of actual English immigrants or simply Irishmen who abandoned the Pope and embraced Great Britain way back in the day?

  14. The are (in great part) the descendants of English (and Scottish) colonists. But one must recall that many of the most famous Irish patriots were Protestants (Parnell, Wolfe Tone for example).

    The British system in Ireland (and later NI) was rigged to support them over Catholics for control purposes.

  15. Thank you, Mahons.

    Although Noel did a wonderful job of explaining why NI is still British, it still seems odd that its Protestant residents can’t accept that they’re living in Ireland – a distinctly separate land mass that was brutally colonized once upon a time.

    Why are they so opposed to living under unified Irish rule? Are protestants persecuted or discriminated against as minorities in Ireland? Does NI receive special benefits as a British colony? Why the provocative marches rather than community building endeavors?

    No offense to David, I love him dear, but his voice still sings Irish when he speaks and if I sat him down in the middle of any Texas soiree , he’d be hard-pressed to convince anyone he was actually British.

  16. You’re mixing religion with nationality, Daphne, a simple mistake that many people make when talking about this place.

    However, there are several different versions of what might be the truth.

    1. Irish people, born on the island of Ireland, were, and are, automatically Catholic. No argument, no doubt, no know-how. Then, some Irish people were enlightened by the shining beacon of Protestantism, and these people all lived in the north-eastern counties of Ireland. These newly enlightened Protestant Irish were, by peaceful, democratic process, granted those 6 north eastern counties as their homeland. It was only the aggressive, warlike Irish Catholics who disagreed, but they were the minority, so who cared, eh?

    2. Scottish Planters were given land in Ireland, without the permission, desire or power to object of the people already living there. These Scottish Planters were mainly Protestant, and, over several centuries, they, with the assistance of the English monarch(s) and British parliament(s) were able to form a majority which controlled the state and kept the minority, indigenous population, in a position where it could do nothing except try to survive. Unfortunately, this ended in violence, perpetrated by both sides, which led us to the modern ‘Troubles’ and subsequent peace talks and current power-sharing situation.

    3. Jolly Scottish Planters (different from the ones above) arrived, bringing with them such a wealth of culture, language and arts, that they completely overwhelmed the indigenous population, supplanting the native, indigenous language, culture and arts with their own, which has survived intact to this day, in the form of Scottish dancing, poor attempts at Scottish music, and a sub-dialect of a Scottish dialect of Anglish (from the Angles).

    4. It’s all a load of crap, stirred up and maintained by successive British governments to keep us all at each others throats, in order that they keep control of a relatively tiny piece of land from their global land-grab.

    5. Any other mixture of the above reasons.

    The pretty poor attempts so far, specifically by David, to boast about being British, on this thread, all ignore one, simple fact. Yes, David Vance is British. That is his choice, and it is his right to identify himself as such. Exactly the same as Andy Murray, Ryan Giggs, Prince Harry and Rory McIlroy.

    The difference is in nationality, ie – in what country they were born. Murray is British, but first of all, he is Scottish. Giggs is British but first of all Welsh. Harry, English, and McIlroy Irish.

    David Vance is Irish, because he was born on the island of Ireland. He can argue and complain as much as he wants, but that doesn’t change. He can’t be English, because he wasn’t born in England. Part of Ireland may be under British rule, but that doesn’t stop it being part of the island of Ireland. You can try to dress it up as being Northern Irish, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are Irish, never mind what compass-point denotes your place of birth.

    I have no problem at all with people identifying themselves as British, but I just have to laugh when people deny their obvious nationality. Especially when the same people so often give off about ‘self-hating Jews’ when a Jew criticises Israel.

    Anyway, most Protestants in the north eastern 6 counties of British occupied Ireland are descended from Scottish people, not English.

    There has always been a very strong connection between Scotland and Ireland. We share the same indigenous language, the same music and stories, the same traditions. It’s no surprise that there would be connections and descendants from Scotland living in Ireland, but the Plantations were a different kettle of fish, where the local, indigenous people were forced off their land, and it in turn given to Scotsmen as reward for their services to the king/queen.

  17. Daphne –

    Northern Ireland is not a British colony. It’s fully a constituent part of the United Kingdom by demand of the people who live there and universally recognised and accepted as such except by some ultra-violent republicans.

    Why are they so opposed to living under unified Irish rule? Because they’re British and a part of the UK and there has never been unified Irish rule. Would Texans be opposed to living under unified Mexican rule?

    Are protestants persecuted or discriminated against as minorities in Ireland? Yes, there has been persecution, both religious and political in the Republic of Ireland and it continues until the present day. The protestant population has declined by over 70% since the RoI was founded 90 years ago.

  18. Daphne

    You live on a landmass with Canada. Does that men you have to be part of a unified island state?

    N. Ireland is not a colony, it sends MPs to our UK parliament.

    The main reason most unionists don’t want to be united with the south is that it would mean leaving the United Kingdom. That is our country and our identity.

    When I was looking for a job after university, going to live in the ROI, just never occurred to me. I ended up in London, which is the capital city of my country. I just travelled to the mainland. Even Donegal in the next county is part of a foreign country – a foreign country my mum came from but foreign nonetheless. I am British – not English British, not Scotish British (apart from ancestry) and not Welsh British but Northern Irish British.

    Being Irish is just geography and history for me. It is no part of my identity. It has much less emotional identity than my blood type, which I don’t even know. Although at least my blood type has no negative associations.

    Martin

    Why would you let Griffin have such control over you and what you support?

    As to the OO distancing from him, I would advise it to ignore him. I would imagine he would love to start a controversy and ignoring would be hs least favourite option.

  19. //Yes, there has been persecution, both religious and political in the Republic of Ireland and it continues until the present day. The protestant population has declined by over 70% since the RoI was founded 90 years ago.//

    Rubbish. Show us where there was “religious and political persecution” in the RoI or admit you don’t know what you’re talking about. Protestants in RoI were always over-represented in terms of numbers in the country’s polics and business, and don’t get me talking about Irish media and literature. Their great contribution to our country has been recognised by all.
    The figures you quote also don’t tell what you’d obviously like them to. There was also a significnat decline in the Protestant population in the west of Northern Ireland. Was that also due “religious and political persecution” of Protestants?
    The decline, in both places, is due primarily to different birth rates, intermarrying and the ne-temere tradition.

    Daphne is of course perfectly correct that Ireland was colonised – there was a deliberate campaign of diluting the Gaelic population by planting English and Scot settlers over about 2 centuries – and that Northern Ireland today is a direct result of that colonisation.

    //Even Donegal in the next county is part of a foreign country – a foreign country my mum came from//

    Not very convincing, Aileen. There was no border between Donegal and Fermanagh when you mum was born; it was one country under the British monarch. There’s no way the same area could have become such a completely foreign place within a generation, especially when most people on both sides of the border consider it one country.

    //That is our country and our identity. //

    Everybody’s got a right to pick their national identity, or to switch from one to another at a whim, but they don’t have a right to be taken seriously by the rest of the world.
    For what have they not been, these loyal Ulster subject? – British monarchists, English republicans, British monarchists again, then Irish republicans, then Ulster nationalists, and now…. well, whatever promises to give them most money and political power. Yes, Peter Robinson is part of a nobel Ulster tradition.

  20. Noel Cunningham –

    You deny religious persecution and then cite the Ne Tenere decree as a reason for the decline in protestant numbers? Jeez!

    Daphne did not say that Ireland was colonised (which it was), but that Northern Ireland is a colony, which it isn’t.

  21. Pete, the Ne Temere decree (for you heathens: it orders a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic to obtain the agreement of the spouse that any children born will be raised as Catholics) was a diktat from Rome and applied to the whole world. It was as applicable to Catholics in Daphne’s Texas and Aileen’s Fermanagh as to those in Kerry. There’s no way that this amounts to “religious and political persecution”.
    You may think Protestants in the Bible Belt and in Northern Ireland were discriminated against, but that puts your comment about the RoI in a certain perspective.

    A tradition that can be ignored is a long way from persecution, in my view.

  22. Yes, there has been persecution, both religious and political in the Republic of Ireland and it continues until the present day

    Shame on you Pete for saying that. I’d have expected aome knowledge of the subject.

    Protestants have been full poliitical actors in R Of I since early days. There have been two Protestant presidents of the state.

    And persecution? Persecution? What the hell do you think you’re talking about?

  23. The decline in the Republic’s Protestant population was a flight of those who no longer were allowed to dominate politically and economically based on a shared religious status with the British crown. In other words, they would not benefit from discrimination as they would in NI for decades.

  24. Borders are drawn and created for all sorts of reasons, – strategic, cultural, military and often have little to do with geographical logic. There are 2 sovereign states within the British isles and it is not wrong that the border is where it is between the UK and the RoI. That is how history has determined it. There is very little difference between how people can live their lives in Dublin or Belfast, Protestants and Catholics,Unionists and nationalists can live and work in each part of the Island without difficulty or discrimination nowadays . Everyone can feel comfortable with their own identity and the issue of sovereignty and the border should be increasingly irrelevent.

  25. Sagacious words, Colm.

    There is finally parity of esteem in NI – now each side gets to annoy the other.

  26. There’s a number of reasons why the Protestant population declined in the then Irish Free State. The two main ones are correctly identified by Noel & Mahons above, the Ne Tenere decree, (which applied to the entire world and not just Ireland), and the Protestant flight from the newly established Republic to Craig’s “Protestant parliament and Protestant state’ where the Orange Order de facto ran government where civic opportunity was based more on religious denomination rather than merit.

    It is not wrong that the border is where it is between the UK and the RoI

    No Colm? Even when that border is a result of ignoring the express democratic will of the electorate and capitulation to a threat of armed violence? (I think today it’s called terrorism).

  27. Mahons

    Also

    Catholic families tended to have more children

    Some Protestant go getters went to pursue better opportunities elsewhere – the R of I economy was dead for ages. These guys went to America, Canada Australia or GB more than they went to NI I might think. They pursued opportunity and not marches in the Troublemaker Republic.

    I

  28. Phantom –

    Most of them, an exodus of a few hundred thousand, went north because they were burned out of their homes and intimidated into fleeing. That there were no international observers and TV crews to record it doesn’t alter the fact of it.

  29. A few hundred thousand?

    That would be one of the major population exchanges in modern Europeqn history.

    Some more detail, please.

  30. Of course the fact that there is no historical record or evidence of it Pete does alter the fact of it.

  31. All

    Do click on Paul’s link

    Because that’s what we’re speaking about

    NI, before the Peace Process, was a shabby state, like Alabama in the thirties. That’s what some want to return.

  32. Some more detail:

    There has been much debate on the treatment of Protestants in the south post-1921. The stark

    fact is that their numbers fell every decade until the 1990s. In 2002, Protestant numbers stood at 146,226 compared to 327,179 in 1911. By way of contrast, the Catholic community in Northern Ireland in 2001 numbered 737,412 compared to 430,161 in the same six counties in 1911.

    Various factors lay behind the decline in southern Protestant numbers. In the first decade there were special reasons such as losses during the first World War and intimidation, especially during the Civil War. Subsequently, however, numbers continued to fall, in considerable part because many felt excluded by the new ethos of the State.

    In a speech in 2010, Martin Mansergh observed how “post independence . . . notwithstanding vestiges of a more idealistic and inclusive republicanism, there was a concerted effort to create a homogeneous 26-county society, in which there would be no challenge to the hegemony of the church”.

  33. Credible source Pete

    Trinity College was not accepted as a source of education, so applicants who had attended Trinity were automatically rejected.

  34. The sources given have what look to be good detail. But they so not refer to any few hundreds of thousands moving across any border

    There are a lot of references to intermarriage

  35. As per Pete’s own source “For southern Protestants, by the middle of the 20th century, the main cause of the decline in their numbers was the Ne Temere decree of the Catholic Church, which required children of a mixed marriage to be brought up as Catholics”.

  36. Who did Martin McGuinness (or Bill Clinton) kill Pete?

    Additionally when did the IRA ever, simply for sport, abduct people because of their religion and torture them for hours before killing them.

  37. Paul McMahon –

    But what about nothing. Just pointing out the common nationalist hypocrisy.

    Seamus –

    Between the two, Clinton and McGuinness killed very many. I’ll give it to you though that with Iraq, Somalia, Sudan and Serbs, Clinton had more killed, certainly.

    Back at you – who did McIlwaine kill?

  38. He hasn’t been convicted of the killing of anyone Pete (mostly because the person he abducted and tried to murder happened to survive his ordeal).

    There is a huge difference between waging a war primarily against the security forces (which is what the IRA did) and being part of a brutal sectarian gang who almost always targeted civilians (what the Shankill Butchers did).

  39. Just pointing out the common nationalist hypocrisy

    Ah okay. That ‘hyprocriscy’ makes it alright then.

  40. I didn’t say that, Paul.

    Many, including some nationalists, would have had McIlwaine released and free to roam the gathering yesterday. People like me would keep him imprisoned for life.

  41. You didn’t say that? That’s sure what is sounded like to me. An uncomfortable fact which doesn’t fit into the neat narrative of yesterday and the response is, “yes, but what about this”

    People like me would keep him imprisoned for life

    Then people like you should have voted to reject the referendum in ’98

  42. Now now Seimi. Don’t you know that liguistic and religious conversion of the Irish was done with love and flowers.

  43. Riiight, Phantom, which is why, as quoted in the link, Edmund Burke wrote,

    “a machine of wise and elaborate contrivance, as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a people, and the debasement in them of human nature itself, as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man.”

  44. So besides the KKK guy in his robes a-flowing and the English Nazi wannabee, y’all had a hell of a march yesterday!

    That must have been some fine show, like the bar scene in Star Wars.

  45. Some local journalists were reporting that UVF & UDA CD’s were being openly sold at the event at Stormont Phantom with the CD which featured the infamous famine song the Beach Boys Sloop John B being a particular favourite.

    Sute it’s all ‘culture’ doncha know?

  46. ‘Well that’s always been the Irish failing – they can’t accept multiculturalism.’

    Sorry if mi speling is bad here, as i’m still wiping coffee off the screen after this gem from Pete ‘Send ’em all home’ Moore 🙂

  47. Seimi –

    These discussions always remind me of a good friend of mine: a Left Wing, feminist, atheist, republican from Newry who told me when we first met (at Newcastle University) that multiculturalism was good for Britain.

    Yeah, I had a grim chuckle too before telling her that the Irish weren’t so hot on it either, and that (the truth is) there’s alot in common between British and Irish nationalists, apart from the ultra-violence of course.

  48. There’s alot in common between British and Irish nationalists, apart from the ultra-violence of course

    There’s quite a few British nationalists in the Northern Irish state that would prove the exception to that rule Pete.

  49. 30,000 marchers, and not one man or one British man to be precise, among them.

    Because if there had been even one red blooded man there, you might think that he’d have got in the face of KKK Boy or the Nazi Light guy.

    I don’t know what values some of you think you have, but they are not core British values, which are completely incompatible with those of the KKK or old Nazis or new scrubbed Nazis pretending to be something else.

    I’m not talking about the punks’ legal right to assemble. I’m speaking about the general response to it, or the gutless lack of a response.

    30,000 spineless jellyfish.

  50. Pete has a point. Many Irish nationalists see multi-culturalism in the UK as a kind of revenge on Britain for past colonialism; they welcome this because they feel it will weaken Britain and undermine its sense of nationalism – which are precisely the arguments put forward by British nationalism, although of course with the opposite motivation.

    Also: the attitudes expressed here, incl. among Irish separatists, to Tinkers etc in Ireland and elsewhere could come straight from some BNP handout. Many of the commenters are really just a flag away from British nationalism.

  51. That’s true Noel. I’ve also had a few run ins with one or two of the Irish here over xenophobic comments.

  52. “Here’s a piece of reading for Agi et al.”
    And very interesting too Seimi.
    The fact remains that in England there was an ongoing struggle between the Catholics loyal to that remnant of the Roman Empire known as the Holy Roman Church presided over by the Pope, and the breakaway Church of England, and the Puritans led by Oliver Cromwell.
    It should therefore be no surprise if that suspicion and mistrust manifested in the parts of Ireland controlled by the English/British…

  53. It should therefore be no surprise if that suspicion and mistrust manifested in the parts of Ireland controlled by the English/British…

    That sounds suspiciously like tacit approval. Perhaps you’re closer to the thinking of Torquemada / Hernando Cortes than you think?

  54. “That sounds suspiciously like tacit approval. Perhaps you’re closer to the thinking of Torquemada / Hernando Cortes than you think?”

    Lol Paul! Only you could read tacit approval into my comment.

  55. ‘I hope David reports back. I am gutted to have missed it.’

    Do you not have TV, radio or…ummm…internet?

    Why is David’s reporting of it so important?

    ‘…there’s alot in common between British and Irish nationalists, apart from the ultra-violence of course.’

    I know, Pete, but it’s not our fault British nationalists are so violent. Unless, of course, you meant violence carried out by people from the Nationalist community in Norn Iron. In which case they are usually (ie by David Vance etc.) referred to as Republicans, in much the same way that people from the ‘other side’, when they commit acts of violence, are no longer part of the ‘Unionist community’, but instead become ‘Loyalists’.

    It’s a flag of convenience, flown by people on both sides, which makes the so-called ‘moderates’ feel easier when they talk about the subject.

    It’s classic ‘smoke and mirrors’, except the smoke is choking and the mirrors are cracked.

  56. Seimi

    I want to hear David’s response to it. That ok?

    TV or radio won’t give me that and the Internet is what I hope to use to read any comment David makes about his experience.

  57. ‘I want to hear David’s response to it. That ok?’

    That’s absolutely fine, Aileen, if you want your reportage of some event to be coloured – in fact, exclusively dictated by one person (who wasn’t even there, by the way) – you go right ahead.

    I, on the other hand, prefer to watch and listen to multiple sources, audio, visual and online. I find that gives me a much broader view of the subject in hand.

    ‘I hope David reports back. I am gutted to have missed it.’

    Are you seriously saying that you missed the deluge of media attention accorded to this, and are now relying on David Vance to let you know how it went? He wasn’t there! He can’t report back on it! He can only give you his opinion on it! Do you realise that? David Vance is not a news outlet – he’s not a decision-maker or a policy-setter. He is a commenter. He makes, or passes comments on issues. He is not here, at least in this context, to report on the news – any news. All he can do is express his opinion on a given subject, but if he wasn’t there at the time, then all his writings will be, are speculation and personal opinion.

  58. Seimi

    FGS I am not looking for a bloody news report. I can get that off the news. David said he was “off to celebrate ….. “. As I took that t mean off to see the parade, I wanted his account. As I will want the account of other people who were there and experienced it. That is far more than merely “knowing how it went”

    I missed it as in I wasn’t able to be in NI and go myself! I could watch footage from here to Kingdom Come and would still have “missed it”.

    When I catch up with people’s personnal account of it I will still have “missed it”, but the feeling will be less.

  59. Anybody see the guy (I assume it was a guy) in the KKK outfit,I think the important question is why he felt so confident that he could do it at all

  60. Fair enough, Aileen. I misunderstood you. When you wrote,

    ‘David said he was “off to celebrate ….. “. As I took that t mean off to see the parade…’

    I didn’t realise you had missed where he had written, just above that,

    ‘I didn’t go myself as I have no interest in parades.’

  61. My Father and Uncle signed the Ulster Covenant and I was proud to do likewise in 1962 and again on Saturday at Stormont. I walked nine miles and was so proud to be part of that great day.

    As to being Irish, like my Father, I am not an Irishman, I am an Ulsterman and British, a very different breed.

    Whilst I won’t be around in 2062 for the 150th Anniversary, or for the 200th Anniversary in 2112, I trust that my grandchildren and great-grandchildren will and they like me and their ancestors will be proud to sign their re-affirmation of the Ulster Covenant. LONG MAY WE REMAIN BRITISH – WE SHOULDN’T HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY

  62. “FGS I am not looking for a bloody news report. I can get that off the news.”
    Aileen, I love it! Made me laugh.

  63. Londonderry Unionist,
    IMV Northern Ireland will only remain British and a part of the UK as long as the majority see that as the best future for the province. And that means accepting ALL those men and women of good will who live there, and treating them with equal respect and dignity.

  64. I can’t wait to hear what DV has to say about the behaviour of the bandsman who decided he needed to urinate and pissed on St. Matthews church which is part of the Short Strand area of East Belfast.

    Given the history of that place of worship there was clearly offense meant, so embarrassing that the head honcho of the Orange Order has personally attended to apologise to the priest and his congregation.

    Can anyone justify such open displays of sectarian hatred?

  65. “Can anyone justify such open displays of sectarian hatred?”

    When you’re busting for a piss, you gotta go.

  66. As to being Irish, like my Father, I am not an Irishman, I am an Ulsterman and British, a very different breed

    What a bizarrely convoluted sense of identity. Someone born on the island of Ireland is not Irish and even though they’re not born in Britain they’re British? Also, if you’re an ‘Ulsterman’ aren’t those people from Monagahan, Cavan & Donegal Ulstermen too? If your father signed the Covenant in 1912 wouldn’t that also suggest that he lived in Ireland before partition and, officially, his nationality was Irish?

    You’re welcome to say / be what you want to be, good luck to you but isn’t the logic you’re using just slightly flawed?

  67. ” You’re welcome to say / be what you want to be, good luck to you but isn’t the logic you’re using just slightly flawed?”

    Surely a case for Inspector Troll of Scotland Yard? 😉

  68. Seimi

    Fair enough.

    And no I didn’t catch that he hadn’t gone.

    Londonderry Unionist

    Thanks for posting. It was my grandparents on both sides in Fermanagh and Donegal. I was fascinated to get copies of the signatures. When I say grandparents, I off course mean grandfathers as my grandmothers signed a mere declaration (and went to different places to do so). Leaving aside the politics of it, the social history bit is facinating, including the number of people who literally “signed” with an “X”. I am most amused by the wording of the women’s declaration. The men knew about the dangers of HR but the women had been convinced, clearly by the men. I mean the sweet things would hardly be able work that sort of thing out by themselves!

    I can’t imagine that my paternal grandmother was very impressed with the dectinction. She was an intelligent woman and by all accounts a force to be reckoned with. Think my maternal grandmother would be less bothered but then the woman had her hands full (and a lot of the time her womb too) producing 13 children.

    Martin

    Your condemnation re the Orange Hall is noted.

    That reads as almost sarcastic but it isn’t 🙂

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