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FLAG DAY

By David Vance On October 9th, 2012

It must REALLY sicken the Irish authorities when NI golfer Rory McIlroy wraps himself in the flag of Northern Ireland. So they try this pathetic stunt…

Golfer Rory McIlroy will be offered the chance to carry the Irish flag at the opening ceremony of the 2016 Rio Olympics in return for pledging his sporting allegiance to Team Ireland. Pat Hickey, the president of the Olympic Council of Ireland, has attempted to sway the world number one after years of speculation about who McIlroy will declare for. “I will say to Rory that if he declares for Ireland, then he will automatically put himself in pole position to carry the Tricolour into the stadium in Rio,” said Mr Hickey, who is also a board member on the International Olympic Committee. “What he has done on the world stage for Irish golf is absolutely astonishing. Personally, I would dearly love for him to represent Ireland.”

WHY would British born McIlroy want to carry the Irish tricolor? It’s the flag of a foreign country. Can’t the Irish find someone born in the 26 counties worth carrying their flag? Isn’t this just overt politicising on the par of the Irish Olympic Authority, likely to embarrass young Rory? Can’t they just accept that he is…and will remain…British?

117 Responses to “FLAG DAY”

  1. No more nor less than a pathetic attempt at petty corruption, – so very typical of most so-cslled ‘sports administrations’ in this shoddy modern age…

  2. Ernest

    Very true, they are ALL bad

  3. What about Brian O’Driscoll?
    He’s a fantastic Captain and sporting hero to many. And he captained the British Lions!

    http://www.brianodriscoll.ie

  4. Agit8ed –

    They’re the British and Irish Lions. Paul O’Connell captained the 2009 tour to Seff Efrica.

    BOD’s captaincy of the 2005 squad to tour New Zealand lasted all of two minutes. That’s how old the first test was when Umaga and Mealamu tipped him upside down and drove his head into the turf. His tour was over, but he was fortunate to avoid being crippled. This being the All Blacks in New Zealand, they got away with it.

  5. “when Umaga and Mealamu tipped him upside down and drove his head into the turf.”
    I remember that. It was disgusting, and as you say they got away with it.
    Still I think O’Driscoll is a great man and he could represent Team Ireland carrying the flag.
    They must have other guys, but I only know the Rugby team..

  6. Rugby 7s will be an Olympic event at Rio so BOD could carry the flag if he’s in the squad. That’s highly unlikely because he’ll be 37 then and 7s is a young man’s game.

  7. Rugby 7s mountain biking will be an Olympic event at Rio so BOD Pete could carry the flag if he’s in the squad. That’s highly unlikely because he’ll be 3757 then and 7smountain biking is a young man’s game.

    So true Pete, so true.. 😉

  8. Hilarious but a typically DV styled post, aiming to inflame but sure it’s great for debate.

    Poor Rory, he’s damned whichever way he turns. His best golfing friend is G Mac who might have less of a “cultural” decision to make but both of them were supported as they progressed throught the junior ranks by the all-Ireland Irish Golfing Union.

    Such a shame when all-Ireland sports are Olympified. Imagine breaking up the Irish rugby team forcing team-mates to make that choice.

    As a golfer and a very young one at that Rory hasn’t had to face up to the stuff his parents might have seen, he had an integrated education and has gone out of his way to avoid this issue. Bigots on both sides are lining up to lambast him. He’s just a sportsman, he has no truck with tribalism.

    Sadly it’s an issue because people like you make it one. Personally I would be delighted if he is successful, no matter what flag he competes under. He is a credit to his parents and the community he came from. Whoever he represents he will be a credit to NI and Eire.

    Time to move into the 21st century DV.

  9. A silly intervention from Hickey. The honour of carrying the national flag should not be used as a bribe and it is inappropriate to add to the silly public pressure on McIlroy to declare one way or the other. The choice is his alone.

  10. Also if Rory McIlroy considers himself to be British why would carrying the Ireland flag be so much of an honour for him to constitute a bribe?

  11. Daithio,
    Surely if Rory wanted to be Irish he would have moved to Ireland? He hasn’t. He has stayed where he was brought up-unlike Lewis Hamilton and Sean Connery for example.
    If he stays put in Northern Ireland which still chooses to be a part of the United Kingdom, what’s the problem? WHY should it become an issue? Surely ANYBODY lucky enough to be living on the Emerald Isle is thrice blessed?

  12. Firstly Rory McIlroy is in fact leaving the UK (and Ireland for that matter as I’ll discuss below) to move to the United States.

    As for the moving to Ireland part. I think there are those (myself included) who would contend that Rory McIlroy grew up and has lived his entire life in Ireland.

  13. Seamus,
    Northern Ireland remains a part of the United Kingdom.
    Only an unforced, change of heart based on reason not coercion, should change that.
    The physical land is a part of Ireland, but there are enough people who don’t want it to be part of the Republic to oppose any change.
    I would rather people see the benefits of change.

  14. Yes but just because the majority in Northern Ireland see it as British does not mean that the minority in it have to go along with it. I have lived (outside of the times at uni) my entire life in Ireland. The fact that it is the part of Ireland that is also part of the UK does not take away from the fact that it is part of Ireland. So the Irish people in Northern Ireland don’t have to move to Ireland. They are already there.

  15. “McIlroy hasn’t confirmed where he’s moving from here, but some have speculated that he’s moving to the U.S. to be closer to girlfriend Caroline Wozniacki. Plus, with McIlroy playing the PGA Tour on a full-time basis, the decision would certainly make a lot of sense.”
    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/golf-devil-ball-golf/rory-mcilroy-puts-home-northern-ireland-market-cool-005407489–golf.html

    Does anyone know if his parents are going too?

  16. “So the Irish people in Northern Ireland don’t have to move to Ireland. They are already there.”
    So there ain’t a problem then.

  17. One reason for moving to the US may be to escape this sort of thing

  18. I couldn’t give two fiddlers who he declares for I wish him success.

    Surely if Rory wanted to be Irish he would have moved to Ireland?

    Truly Jesuitical thinking. There’s a clue in the name of the state i.e. it’s the northern part.

    Northern Ireland remains a part of the United Kingdom

    Officially yes but it’s not quite ‘as British as Finchley’ is it? And that’s the precise reason why young McIlroy can declare for whoever he likes.

    BTW David, as were speaking officially that flag that young McIlroy is wrapped in above is the flag of the N.I. Government 1922 – 1972 and lost it’s official (and legal) status when that government was porouged in 1972.

  19. I agree with Phantom’s 5:56 comment, but on one hand a person says they all live in Ireland, which is geographically true, with the northern part politically aligned to being part of the UK, not the RofI.
    I suggested some time ago that those who are unhappy with this arrangement could relocate “Sarf,” but that doesn’t suit.
    Yet you have many many Irish people North and South, who have emigrated willingly/unwillingly to the New World or even to the land of the Oppressor..
    I myself have relocated five times in England for work or housing.
    Of course I could have turned round and said,

    “WaaaaaaAAAAAhh! Why should I have to move??” I’m going to stay right here and rot my life away on principle.
    Frankly I can’t see there are any guarantees if the North decided to join the Republic,life would be any better economically or socially either. I have always found nice and nasty people are all over the place.
    http://www.freewebs.com/asb-ireland/enter.htm

  20. or this
    https://www.housing.ie/Our-Publications/Archive/Housing-Management/Tackling-Anti-Social-Behaviour_International-Probl.aspx

  21. McIlroy is moving to the US for one reason only, and that’s because he plays on the US tour.

  22. Pete,
    So nothing to do with his girlfriend?

  23. I suggested some time ago that those who are unhappy with this arrangement could relocate “Sarf,” but that doesn’t suit

    Why not just repatriate all the ‘British’ back to Britain?

    Because it’s not quite as wasy as that Agi. International law, that same international law which says the state of N.I. is part of the U.K., says that citizens of that state can have Brit nationality, Irish nationality or both. That’s why it will never be ‘as British as Finchley’

    The U.K. is a political construct and neither it noe the state of N.I. have an automatic right to exist in perpituity.

  24. I’d bet he moves to Florida if he comes here.

    Land of lush fairways, and of a zero percent state income tax. Rich people, esp athletes, really like Florida.

  25. “International law, that same international law which says the state of N.I. is part of the U.K., says that citizens of that state can have Brit nationality, Irish nationality or both. That’s why it will never be ‘as British as Finchley’”

    Pauly,
    There you go then, THRICE blessed! You can be whatever shade of Irish you choose.
    Listen my boy,
    You’re in Pamplona, right?
    You got sunshine.
    You got oranges.
    You got a lovely wife
    and fifteen ugly daughters
    and a Spanish cat.
    What MORE could you WANT??

  26. A pastie bap and some decent beer.

    Ain’t no oranges in Pamplona and my daughters are absolutely stunning

  27. There you go then Paul!
    Things are looking up..
    When I come to annoy you I will bring you some decent beer and a pastie bap
    (once I find out what that is..)
    You’re a likeable bloke Paul -at least your cyber version seems likeable.

    I know you’ve got bees in your bonnet about things, but my happiness comes from inside. I/we intended to retire to France, but it didn’t happen. I would have loved to have had kids. Didn’t happen. Made more of myself educationally, I didn’t. I wish my lungs worked better, they don’t.
    But I’ve got people around who like and love me, and as for the majority well, they’ll have to put up with me.
    I have found that people love to talk about themselves, so I listen.
    In fact when I listen to you moaning, I think to myself
    “Life ain’t so bad after all. I could be living next to that grumpy sod McMahons in Pamplona….” 🙂

  28. Agit8ed –

    What good’s living in the US when the missus is at Wimbledon, Paris, Melbourne, Dubai and everywhere else for much of the year?

    The pair of them are so loaded that a private jet can be whistled up from anywhere at anytime when they want to get together. Probably McIlroy will be in NI during down time anyway, at least if his mother can cook, but he’s plumped for the US tour so that’s where he’ll live.

    I see that he’s gone for Jupiter, Florida. It’s full of quality courses and somewhere that many professionals live. Plus the weather might just be more conducive to golf compared to NI for half the year.

  29. Pete,
    “What good’s living in the US when the missus is at Wimbledon, Paris, Melbourne, Dubai and everywhere else for much of the year?”

    Hmmmn.
    Well, what would YOU do?
    You know, if YOU had a talent? 😉

  30. I’ve got talent, old son, and I’d do what I’ve always done – whatever suits myself.

    A chicks loves a man in control.

  31. “I’ve got talent, old son,”

    Self recommendation is NO recommendation..

    ” and I’d do what I’ve always done – whatever suits myself.”
    Ah. So that’s the required attitude for your new liberal society.

    “A chicks loves a man in control.”

    As long as she still gets time to be with the handsome young stud she really likes, I’m sure she’d say anything to please you Pete….

  32. Isn’t this thread about McIlroy & nationality? That’s what I’m discussing.

    Fact of the matter is that I couldn’t care less who young McIlroy declares for and I suspect most people feel the same until people like David, (who I’ll be surprised if he comments further), throw it into the mix and (deliberately?) stir things up.

  33. “Isn’t this thread about McIlroy & nationality? That’s what I’m discussing.”

    It is Paul. It is.
    We’ve been discussing nationality and Rory’s talent.

  34. “Isn’t this thread about McIlroy & nationality? That’s what I’m discussing.”

    It was discussed at the Ryder Cup, and the scoreboard decided that most of the very best golfers in the world are British.

  35. Until people like David, (who I’ll be surprised if he comments further), throw it into the mix and (deliberately?) stir things up.

    And Pete Moore.

  36. Pete,
    A hat tip to you.

  37. Is David having one of his insecure moments again regarding national identity? It must be at least a fortnight since the last Rory McIlroy thread.

    Why not just copy and paste everything from the last few times he’s flogged this particular horse?

  38. Slow news day!

  39. Pretty shoddy effort from Hickey.
    Time he left Rory alone to get on with his game

  40. David will you be sporting an Irish jersey when you head down to Dublin to cheer on Ireland in the 6 Nations in the New Year?

    Anyway the solution is plain to be seen. If Rory doesn’t want the gig we should give it to G-Mac. Btw that’s the other golfist in the photo.

  41. I see McIlroy is referred to on CNN always as “the Ulster player”.

  42. Maybe CNN should be even more specific and refer to him as “the Co Down player”

  43. The flag wavers will lead us to a Derry / Londonderry situation for this guy. ( To some of our US friends – the conflict over the name of this city leads many to avoid mentioning the place at all, or to keep it off some maps you would expect it to be shown on )

    Why deal with the issue at all if anything you say or do will provoke someone?

    In most places, the flag is a sign of unity. Northern Ireland is not one of those places.

  44. Why deal with the issue at all if anything you say or do will provoke someone?

    I suspect in the case of ATW that’s what it’s specifically meant to do Phantom

  45. Rory has seemed pretty reasonable and non-confrontational on the whole issue, far more than the Hickeys and Vances.

  46. I see that Seamus spent all his time in ‘Ireland’ apart from time at Uni. Firstly, there is no such country as ‘Ireland’, except the geographical ‘island of Ireland’. There are two jurisdictions, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Seamus, I presume lived all his life in Northern Ireland and then moved to another part of the United Kingdom to attend University. Is this correct? Good, educated through British taxpayers money….just like so many of those Oirish….including the former Presidential candidate Gay Mitchell, educated by the British at Queen’s University, Belfast…just like thousands of his countrymen/women.

  47. Firstly, there is a country of Ireland. There is no unified state in Ireland. No unified jurisdiction in Ireland. But there is a country.

    Secondly, Irish people in the UK also pay taxes. So while I may have been educated through money gathered by the UK Exchequer the taxpayers who payed that were not all British. So I was also educated through Irish taxpayers money (and also the money gathered from taxpayers with a huge number of other nationalities).

    Thirdly, I pay for University.

    Fourthly, stop being bigoted.

  48. Seamus,

    “stop being bigoted.”

    Damn – there goes another keyboard!

    reminder: ‘Do not drink coffeee while eading a Seamus comment!’

  49. What is the problem with that statement Ernest when it is directed at someone who uses xenophobic attacks in a comment?

  50. Seamus,
    Surely if you live in Northern Ireland any taxes that get paid go to the province and the mainland?
    Those living in that there Republic of Ireland,. do NOT pay taxes so that Northern Irish students can attend English universities.
    Anyway the United Kingdom indirectly subsidises the RofI, by the monies it pays into the EU.
    Personally if I was crossing the water to study in England, I would prefer anywhere to Hell Hull..

  51. Where did I say that those living in the Republic paid taxes to the British Exchequer?

  52. You didn’t.
    I (ME) said that
    “Anyway the United Kingdom indirectly subsidises the RofI, by the monies it pays into the EU.”
    I didn’t say the Rof I pays taxes into the British Exchequer.
    Apropos of your
    “There is a country of Ireland”
    I said they don’t pay taxes so that Northern Irish students can attend an English university.

    definition of country:
    coun·try/ˈkəntrē/
    Noun:
    A nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.
    The people of a nation.
    So there is no country of Ireland. There is Northern Ireland currently preferring to throw in their lot with those dreaded English, and the Republic of Ireland.

  53. Definitions are contested and not necessarily agreed on.

    Northern Ireland is a state. The Republic of Ireland is a state. There are those who view both as two individual countries. There are also those who view them as being the same country.

  54. Seamus,
    Give it up.
    The people who are paying for your university education are BRITISH, not citizens of the Republic of Ireland.

  55. I’m paying for my university education and the last time I checked I am a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.

  56. For Goodness sake Seamus,
    I thought you lived in Northern Ireland.
    In which case I apologise.
    So the taxpayers of the Republic of Ireland aren’t/haven’t been asked to/wouldn’t if they were paying for your education?

  57. I do live in Northern Ireland.

    And the taxpayers in the Republic of Ireland haven’t contributed to my education. But Irish taxpayers in the North have.

  58. Kid,
    No wonder you ended up in Hull…

  59. Seamus,
    In reviewing your last four comments the logic displayed therein reminded me of this…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPJO99bFGQ8

  60. Seamus,

    While I can appreciate your patriotism – misplaced though it is, – your comments are some of the most xenophobic and bigoted, – even while being well written, – to be read here on ATW.

    Nothing wrong with that, of course, – just be honest about it! and admit that you are in good company, albeit, on the opposite side of the fence…

  61. In what way?

    Being positive about your own country and defending it and also being opposed to the actions of another country is different to using xenophobic slurs.

    Where have I exhibited xenophobia and bigotry?

  62. Agreed Ernest,
    I admire any patriotic man or woman.
    But when you analyse it what does it really mean? Many a patriot has either been denied true justice or recognition by their country, or else ended up living next door to the neighbour from Hell..
    There is a place for patriotism. I love my country (or at least the country I knew).
    Seamus is in love with patriotism whilst poking all those Northern Irish residents helping pay his uni fees who are happy to be regarded as British.
    Apart from the fact he said HE is paying his fees…. 😉

  63. Seamus,

    “Where have I exhibited xenophobia and bigotry?”

    What’s in a name? Would you rather be labelled a ‘jingoistic nationalist, – with aspirations!’ – if it makes you feel better…

  64. No I would prefer you to show me where I have exhibited xenophobia and bigotry?

  65. You haven’t, Seamus. As Mahons mentioned recently, Ernest has been crawling on here and insulting people for no reason for years.

  66. Petr,

    Would that be the same Mahons who consistently treats Patty with kindness and respect?
    Ernest can sometimes be crabby with everybody, including me. He is I think our oldest regular contributor. I don’t recall how old Mike C is.
    We all deserve respect. Ernest doesn’t crawl anymore than you do.

  67. I object! I never insult anyone for no good reason, even if it is only that I may consider someone, such as yourself as a total prat…

  68. ” I object! I never insult anyone for no good reason, even if it is only that I may consider someone, such as yourself as a total prat…”

    Gee!
    Thanks Dad! 😉

  69. Not you Agi, – At least you offer content, something worth reading.

    Petr seldom offers little more than a childish splutter! Seamus I have time for, an intelligent lad, but as with us all, he has his faults. I don’t think I insulted him on this thread…

  70. I hear ya Ernest. I only insult people if I think they are senile old bigots!

  71. What a pathetically petty, (not to mention incorrect), comment from LondonderryUnionist above.

    I once had girlfriend from Galway who studied at UUJ outside Belfast. She explained to me that students from the twenty six counties that studied in the north either had to pay their tuition fees themselves or their tuition fees were paid for by grants from the Irish Government.

    So, completely wrong when you speak about those ‘Oirish’ having their education paid for by the “British” taxpayer PaddyBrit LondonderryUnionist but I wouldn’t expect anything else.

    Those living in that there Republic of Ireland,. do NOT pay taxes so that Northern Irish students can attend English universities

    And vice – versa.

    Anyway the United Kingdom indirectly subsidises the RofI, by the monies it pays into the EU

    Rubbish, the U.K. owes more to the R.O.I. than the R.O.I. owes to the U.K.

    The people who are paying for your university education are BRITISH, not citizens of the Republic of Ireland

    Yes but a sizeable portion are also IRISH who are not citizens of Britain and those citizens get to have their taxes spent on really important things like this:

    http://www.u.tv/News/%C2%A3600k-cost-of-bonfire-cleanup/80a47d10-a70c-4eb9-bde6-97312015c1f2

    definition of country:
    coun·try/ˈkəntrē/
    Noun:
    A nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.
    The people of a nation.
    So there is no country of Ireland. There is Northern Ireland currently preferring to throw in their lot with those dreaded English, and the Republic of Ireland

    You also realise that if you use that definition then there is no England as well don’t you?

  72. ” You also realise that if you use that definition then there is no England as well don’t you?

    No Pauly I don’t.
    But a sense of terror and despair warns me that no amount of positive thoughts about oranges will spare me from a McMahonian pronouncement..

    So,
    there is no England because………?

  73. A nation with its own government. Is there an English government?

  74. “I hear ya Ernest. I only insult people if I think they are senile old bigots!”

    Hey Heyyyyy!
    This from a boy who would champion the people, extol the virtues of the Proletariat??
    Petr
    Over the months your persona has been shot so full of holes you might as well model for string underwear…

  75. Pauly that is such a desperate question!
    Oliver Cromwell was known as?
    The parliament of the United Kingdom is… where?
    In 1536 the English and Welsh made peace and worked together.
    In 1706 the English and Scots made a treaty whereby the two countries would work together.

    Today Wales and Scotland are now considering self determination. Are the English stopping them?
    The fact is we are all stronger together, and they will still need to suckle at England’s tit in the future.
    If the Irish hadn’t been so pig headed they would have realised that peace with England, the dominant power of the British Isles,was in their own best interests -and ours.

  76. Stop digging Agi. It’s your definition and you were hoisted by your own petard.

  77. Paul,
    ‘I’ don’t need to dig.
    ‘I’ have no axe to grind.
    ‘I’ can still live reasonably safely in MY own country
    along with hundreds of thousands of ex Paddies who have been happily settled here for generations.

  78. So you then admit your definition holds no water?

  79. I love this picture. I think it is great that young RC unionists have a positive reflection of that aspect of them on their screens. Even better that he doesn’t seem to be trying to do that.

    This is a totally appropriate story for David to start a thread on.

  80. What I admit Paul,is that I find your particular brand of logic impossible to follow.
    England is THE driving force of the United Kingdom. The dominant culture.
    We don’t, and will never need to rub the noses of our immediate neighbours in the miserable puddles of their own inferiority. We honour them and respect them. It is their own sense of injustice and frustration that insists they keep seeking to give the English a bloody nose.
    Btw Paul,
    What country is it you are now living in?

  81. What I admit Paul,is that I find your particular brand of logic impossible to follow

    Very easy, you used a definition in order to attempt to define Ireland’s non – status as a country. A definition thats criteria also applies to England.

    We don’t, and will never need to rub the noses of our immediate neighbours in the miserable puddles of their own inferiority

    Spoken with the sublime arrogance of the supremicist.

    What country is it you are now living in?

    Irrelevant question.

  82. Paul,
    Ireland is NOT a country according to the definition.
    There is the land of Eire or Erin.
    Then there are the two states on the same land mass.
    Logically it makes sense they would be better off, but on the other land mass there is England, Scotland and Wales. THREE separate countries bound together by treaties and common interests. Plenty of Scots Welsh and Irish living and working in bloody hateful England.
    It IS the Irish who want to keep the old grievances going(genuine in many casesI don’t deny).
    Who can’t accept that there is still a majority of people in Northern Ireland who want to remain part of the UK.
    I find that both tragic and stupid in this day and age. The rest of the world moves on, except in some parts of Ireland….

  83. Ireland is NOT a country according to the definition

    Then, according to the definition, neither is England.

  84. ” Then, according to the definition, neither is England.”

    Sob Sob Sob!!

    So tell me again Paul, WHICH darn country is it you and your ancestors blame for ALL your troubles??

  85. Another irrelevant question.

  86. Agi

    England is not a country according to that definition. I have never considered it a country either. There are two real countries in the British Isles (geographical entity), the UK and the ROI. In the UK there are constituent parts that are often called countries but I don’t think they are.

  87. Ah Ha!
    Because actually, England doesn’t exist!
    And neither does “Ireland”…

  88. Aunt Aileen,
    “In the UK there are constituent parts that are often called countries but I don’t think they are.”

    Try telling that to the Scots and the Welsh..
    They’ll cut your ba**** off..
    Ooops!
    You haven’t got any, have you.

  89. I don’t Necessarily agree but what’s sauce for the goose and all that.

  90. Agi

    Quit with the Aunt stuff!

    Why would England not being a country mean it doesn’t exist?

    Re your last comment go back to your response to Mahons quip about the saints being alive to day, substitute his name for yours, his comment for yours and take it as my response to you.

  91. I goota go and watch This is Ireland India on BBC2
    They used tobe a part of someones Empire I seem to remember…
    Then I want to catch the Honourable Vance on the Steve Nolan prog..
    Then bed.

    That’s enough mischief making for one day…. 🙂

  92. They used tobe a part of someones Empire I seem to remember

    Whe the aforementioned Empire use to exist many. many. many years ago?

  93. Aunty Aileen,
    Rollocks.

  94. ‘ I think it is great that young RC unionists have a positive reflection of that aspect of them on their screens.’

    I must have missed the news that McIlroy considers himself a unionist. Could you provide evidence, Aileen? Oh wait, I forgot. You don’t have to produce evidence for your claims. They should just be accepted.

    Also, if you base the assumption on one photo of him posing with a flag, then former F1 driver and native of Newtownards, Eddie Irvine must be Irish, considering an Irish Tricolour was flown following his 2nd place finish at the Argentine Grand Prix in 1997.

    But – oh wait – what did Irvine himself have to say regarding his nationality? In 1995, he said this:-

    ‘But at the end of the day, I’m Irish. I mean, I’ve got a British passport, but if you’re from Ireland, north or south, you’re Irish. And ‘British’ is. . . such a nondescript thing, isn’t it?’

    ‘This is a totally appropriate story for David to start a thread on.’

    Of course it is. I always feel that it’s totally appropriate to sooth your insecurities regarding national identity by continuously posting photos or reports that mean very little and prove even less.

    ‘Aunty Aileen,
    Rollocks.’

    Agi, surely it’s time for your Horlicks…?

  95. Seimi

    No actually I don’t have to produce evidence, no one here does! You or anyone else can accept or reject anything that anyone else says as they please.

    My “claim” is that I think it is great ….” I think I am an expert in what I consider great!

    As it happens I accept the reports that Rory is happy with his British identity. Can’t quite get my head round the idea of an RC unionists who rejects his Britishness. That is the aspect of themselves I was talking about. (BTW if you are interpreting my comment as me saying he is a member of, supporter of or voter for any Unionist party, that would be your fault not mine)

    I don’t have any insecurities at all about my national identity.

  96. Seimi

    Also I never said anything about him considering himself a unionist. I don’t know and wouldn’t make a guess as to whether he considers himself in those terms.

  97. Aileen

    ‘No actually I don’t have to produce evidence, no one here does!’

    You’re right. But just don’t expect people to automatically believe everything you write, without evidence. Rory McIlroy has said that he supposes he regards himself as British. That’s fine. He is quoted as saying something close to that. I can’t remember him saying anywhere that he regards himself as a unionist, and I was wondering if you had any evidence to back up your claim. I suspect you don’t, but I’m happy to be corrected.

    This is how this type of debate is conducted. People debate over (usually) accepted facts, but when a new claim is made, it is up to the person making that claim to back it up with proof, either a newspaper article, an excerpt from a book, a piece of audio or video, or something like that. On three separate occasions recently, you have introduced new claims or news, and when asked to produce your evidence for it, you have refused, stating that either you don’t need to produce evidence, or by claiming that the onus is on the other person to disprove your new, unverified claim. The result of this is that I, and I’m sure quite a few others, invariably dismiss your claim as untrue. As long as you’re happy for that to happen, that’s fine, but surely you find it frustrating? I would!

    ‘As it happens I accept the reports that Rory is happy with his British identity.’

    That’s good. What happens if he decides to declare for Ireland, without any pressure from outside parties? Will you still accept it?

    ‘Can’t quite get my head round the idea of an RC unionists who rejects his Britishness.’

    Who said he was unionist? Did he say it himself? Or is it wishful thinking on your part?

    ‘ (BTW if you are interpreting my comment as me saying he is a member of, supporter of or voter for any Unionist party, that would be your fault not mine)’

    Of course I didn’t think that. I’m just wondering why you keep stating that Rory McIlroy is a supporter of the Union. As I said, I don’t recall reading, hearing or seeing anything about it, and I was wondering if you had?

    ‘I don’t have any insecurities at all about my national identity.’

    Good for you. Nor do I. However, that was directed at David, not you, and it was more than a bit tongue-in-cheek 🙂

  98. ‘Also I never said anything about him considering himself a unionist. I don’t know and wouldn’t make a guess as to whether he considers himself in those terms.’

    You refer to him as a ‘RC unionist’ in two posts here. So is it then that you consider him a unionist, rather than him? That’s very presumptuous, don’t you think?

  99. There’s something refreshing about him declaring for Britain.
    I always have the illogical feeling that anything that breaks the mould in NI can’t be bad.

  100. I had the same thought, Noel. Good luck to him.

  101. I agree, Noel. Personally I don’t care who he declares for. I’m happy for anyone from this island, north or south, doing well in their chosen sport or profession.

    I just don’t like it when others appear to confer their own identity on others, just to feed their own apparent insecurities.

  102. I wish him success whoever he declares for. I wonder how many feel the same?

  103. Seimi

    Why on earth would I “expect everyone to believe everything you write?” That seems a bizarre thing to expect.

    I NEVER CLAIMED HE WAS A UNIONIST or even My “claim” was that I thought it was great….” Again I am an expert in what I think is great so it is more than a claim it is a statement of fact!

    And just in case I did not include him in the term “RC unionists”. In either of my comments. It was Rory’s acceptance of his Britshness that RC unionists can see reflections of themselves.

    What EXACTLY are the three claims you refer to? Particularly interested in the one where I said the onus was on someone else to disprove my “claim” and the context.

    I don’t care if anyone dismisses my “claims”. What I do find frustrating is being told what I “have” to do, as if commenting here was my day job (and paid) and being told I “claimed” something I didn’t.

    I was going to add why you persist in claiming I said he was a unionist given my 10:14, but I suspect that you hadn’t seen it when you replied.

    I see nothing in David’s posting to show insecurity about his nationality. You MUST back your claim up!

    Where is the tongue-in-cheek smilie!

  104. Seimi
    No I didn’t refer to him as an RC unionist. I was not thinking of him providing himself with a reelection of an aspect of himself?

  105. ! not ?

  106. “reflection” not “reelection”

    IPad is the divil for “correcting” my spelling by substituting something else.

  107. Ok, Aileen, I accept that you didn’t include McIlroy in your RC unionist phrase, and that he is someone RC unionists can see reflections of themselves in, although when you wrote, ‘Can’t quite get my head round the idea of an RC unionists who rejects his Britishness.’, you do seem to be referring specifically to him…

    As to the other instances, one was in connection with Mahons, and the other was the whole nonesense of Daley Thompson’s alleged racist remark re the misspelt tattoo. Despite the fact that all media reports failed to mention that it was because of some strange, unheard of pronunciation, which even Thompson didn’t say, you claimed that this was the reason. I posted links to 3 newspapers, and asked you to post just one backing up your claim. You said the onus was on me to prove my claim, not you, despite the fact that yours was the new claim and mine was the reported, documented, and apparently accepted by everyone, Thompson included, version.

    Re David’s national identity – it is of course a joke. I know, as does David, that he is as British as Eddie Irvine 🙂

  108. Seimi

    I am hampered by not being able to quote but that comment was about narrowing down the particular aspect of RC unionists that would find reflected back by Rory (who may or may not be a unionist, Unionist, etc). I was kinda checking if there was a possibility of an RC unionist (not Rory), who rejected their Britshness and therefore would not have this aspect reflected back etc..

    Re Mahons, I mentioned his links with SF/IRA and the Hume Adans talks and that is more than I wish to think of either of them.

    Ah the Daley quote, I remember!

    My initial statements were actually to respond in kind to statements presuming the worst interpretation of his comments.

    When an accusation is made of the worst interpretation of someone’s actions or words, particularly where there is no history of similar behaviour, anyone showing that there is another possibility, has nothing to prove. As the discussion continued, I was not stating that that was the explanation. (although it is what i beleive) I was arguing against the certainty that the humour was in stupidity not accent. You didn’t point to a statement from Daley that he had meant to imply that the Irish are thick. Your links were just to people who took the same line as you which is just proof that others agreed with you not that what you all thought was right. (unless I misread them and there was a wee confession in there).

  109. //if there was a possibility of an RC unionist (not Rory), who rejected their Britshness and therefore would not have this aspect reflected back etc..//

    I’m nor sure if I can guess what that means, but I wonder if there are many Protestant unionists who reject their Britishness, or who even have any Britishness to reject in the first place.

    As we all know, there are many Protestant unionists who reject their Irishness, but are there any “RC” nationalists who reject their Irishness?

    And what about Protestant nationalists who reject their Irishness;
    eh, what about THEM?

  110. Aileen,

    ‘…anyone showing that there is another possibility, has nothing to prove…’

    Rubbish. The complete onus is now on them to give some backing, some credence to their new, alternative theory.

    I don’t think you get this. Just as you accepted the reports that Rory McIlroy is happy to identify himself as being British, so I accepted that what Daley Thompson said was racist, based on an ‘Irish people are stupid’ premise, rather than a ‘Oh, that’s how an Irish person might pronounce that word’ premise, the reason, in both cases being, that there was no conflicting explanation or story, but plenty of media coverage and evidence on both.

    Had the papers been full of shocking headlines of McIlroy’s disgust and anger at having been misquoted as identifying as British, I’m sure you would be looking at this in a different way. Just the same as if, had the papers been full of Thompson’s disgust and anger at having his pronunciation joke being misconstrued as being one about stupid Irish people, I would have looked at that story in a different way.

    The bottom line is – the papers weren’t full of this type of story. The difference is that McIlroy has come out with some kind of statement trying to explain what he meant, and to clarify that he hasn’t made a decision. Thompson didn’t do this. Not once, as far as I can see, and I did look. So, either he doesn’t care that people think he made a racist statement, or he doesn’t care enough to clarify what he meant, OR what the media suggested he did was exactly what he did.

    And by the way, no matter what way you say the arrangement of letters ‘Olympics’, I still can’t think of a single place in Ireland, north or south, big or small, which would pronounce it like ‘Oylmpics’, and I’ve been in every corner of this island, several times over.

  111. Seimi

    Rubbish yourself! *rolls eyes nearly out of head!

    Something does not need to be proved to establish it as a possibility. If it was proved it would be more than a possibility. Do you get the concept of “possibility”? As it happens I said that this was the first thing I thought of when reading it the lettering”. If I read it like that it has to be POSSIBLE that he did. Before you “rubbish” that you might like to prove I am lying. Or am I supposed to prove it? It wasn’t a new theory either. Someone else had made the same comment. (nearly sure it was on the original thread on ATW. If not it was on another thread. )

    It is amazing to me how so many people are so often so quick to presume a meaning behind something said or written and without clarification make accusations. A bit like whatever made you accuse me of claiming Rory was a unionist instead of just asking “are you assuming he is a unionist” or something similar. I don’t presume to know people’s neurological profile but that is a very typical Neurotypical trait.

    You accepted something as a premise doesn’t make it a truth.

    Or he realises that many people think that making jokes about accents is racist and for those so quick to jump to negative conclusions, they would be unlikely to beleive him even if they were capable of comprehending the difference and/or he was advised to let the story die as quickly as possible.

    Your last paragraph it TOTALLY irrelevant as stereotypical accents don’t have to be real.

  112. Oh and Agi

    Grow up!

  113. Petr @ 6.18pm

    “I only insult people if I think they are senile old bigots!”

    Well, I could say ‘that’s my excuse’, – and ask, ‘whats yours?

    However, as a broad-minded, free thinking octagenarian, I can well see how a few honest words might upset a narrow-minded, hypocritical, immature person such as yourself. I use the word ‘hypocrite’ as I note your use of an ‘ageist’ remark, when I feel sure you would be appalled at anyone making a simialrly generic remark to a person of colour.

  114. Aileen
    How did you know I meant Horlicks?
    It’s these new dentures..
    btw,
    we have to hold things in balance, get on with our lives, do our best for our families and realise that it’ll all be over soon enough for each one of us.
    Asthma has blighted my life for the last near 50 years. It has affected what work I can do, caused me to move around the country, even abroad if it meant breathing would be easier. In the last 6 years there has been a marked deterioration in lung function, so that everything has to be done more slowly, and I now have to admit there are things I cannot do.
    So nationality-trashionality!
    It does not define your worth as a person, and anyone who thinks it does is half an idiot. What your nationality does is provide you with a world view, and a set of values. That’s all.

    The important bit is to do your best to justify the little space you occupy on the world’s surface and try to make it a better place.

    All this earnest conversation about who he or she stands for is nonsense. If you’re getting the stuffing knocked out of you by a thug and he’s stealing your money, does it make you feel better that
    “At least he is one of OUR thugs..?”

  115. Agi

    I don’t give a rats ass what you meant, I saw you persist in the “aunt” crap.

    Anyone who thinks the discussion has been about establishing nationality as a measure of worth is a whole idiot. As is someone who asserts that a nationality gives you a world view or a set of values. The latter being a key aspect of any sense of relative worth of a person and one of the most important (if not the most important) thing to define you as a person. Jimmy Saville was British. Is that what gave him his world view and values?

  116. Anyone who thinks the discussion has been about establishing nationality as a measure of worth is a whole idiot. As is someone who asserts that a nationality gives you a world view or a set of values

    I absolutely agree with both points. So what has the point of the discussion been?

  117. ‘Anyone who thinks the discussion has been about establishing nationality as a measure of worth is a whole idiot’

    Couldn’t agree more, but hasn’t that been what the recent Olympics, and the way nationalism was over promoted by the BBC, been all about?

    With Cameron and Johnson boasting about ‘We can do it!’, ad infinitum, not to mention the rebuilding of some vision of a fictious yet ubiquitous national spirit.

    I have read many post Olympic comments bemoaning the total corruption of purpose that reduced the Olympics to little more than a ‘three ring circus’, with little to do with ‘sport’ as an activity, but more to do with ‘celebrity’, nationalism and showbiz.

    It seemed that the collecting of medals was the prime purpose, and it was only of temporary importance who actually won them. Yes a handful will go on to become ‘celebs’, the rest will be forgotten, their only value being the content of a trick question in some future quiz show.

    It isn’t the athletes and sportsfolk who do or cause the damage, it is the media and the politicians, fanning the flamess of nationaism when it suits them, and at other times condemning the very idea as being no more than petty jingoism.