163 1 min 8 yrs

The other day in New Mexico, there were protests against multiple incidents of brutality, some fatal, by a poorly disciplined Albuquerque police force.

Two bums held the American flag upside down as they rode around in a scooter.

A US Marine and a soldier didn’t care too much to see the flag disrespected in the name of politics. Proper citizen’s action was taken.

The American flag is not a prop. It is a unifying symbol. It is never be disrespected by whoring it to make any political point by anyone.

Semper fi, boys.

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163 thoughts on “The American Flag is not a Prop for Anyone

  1. FREEDUHM!

    The flag is not a prop? Are you joking? Lapel badges and ranks of flags behind politicians and flag-draped coffins and all the rest of it are props, all part of the theatre.

    These bozos are proclaiming that the flag is the symbol of the Land of the Free – “but don’t you go doing anything we don’t like!”

    In fact the scooter boys were making a point eloquently. The Albuquerque gang of maniacal thugs police have killed regularly in the last few years and some locals have had enough, hence the protests. Flying the flag upside down is a distress signal. If multiple killings by badged psychopaths isn’t a place in distress, then what is?

    Bottom line, the flag isn’t the property of the pretendy Marines and soldiers (come on, they’re just not). They’re guilty of theft with menaces.

    Maybe they’re coppers?

  2. Washington Post: What is going on in Albuquerque? Your guide to the police shooting protest

    A large protest in downtown Albuquerque on Sunday meant to call attention to recent police-involved shootings ended with a chaotic confrontation between protesters and police. What sparked the protests? And what role did the hacking collective known as Anonymous (possibly) play? Here’s what you need to know.

    The protest, which began at noon and stretched into the evening, followed two recent fatal shootings by Albuqerque police. The Albuquerque police have shot and killed 23 people since the beginning of 2010 (there have also been more than a dozen non-fatal shootings over the same span).

    Two of the people shot by Albuquerque police were killed just this month, with the most recent shooting coming hours after a protest sparked by the previous one. While the police-involved shootings stretch back more than four years, it was these latest shootings — and the video footage released from one of them — that appeared to ignite these public demonstrations.

    James M. Boyd was shot and killed by an Albuquerque police officer on March 16. Boyd, a 38-year-old homeless man, was shot because he was holding knives, according to Albuquerque Police Chief Gordon Eden. But police released helmet camera footage (warning: the footage is graphic) from the shooting last week that showed Boyd turning away from officers just before they opened fire.

    In response to the Boyd shooting and the helmet camera footage, a video posted by a group claiming to be Anonymous called on people in Albuquerque to demonstrate on Sunday.

    And people are worried about a bloody flag?!

    Notice that it’s when the (very unimportant) flag business happened that the video went around and was reported up. While the police are murdering anyone they don’t like, it’s “where’s Albuhkerky?”

  3. It is a unifying symbol, equally owned by those of any political persuasion. The lunatic liberal latte sippers in San Francisco own it just as much as the potbellied Tea Party does.

    It is never acceptable to drag it around upside down to make a point.

    This is not an unusual reaction by citizens, not at all. People have intervened to save the flag from desecration before.

    In 1976, a couple of creeps jumped onto the field at Dodger Stadium during a game, seeking to burn an American flag. Fortunately, an alert ballplayer prevented this from happening.

    On April 25, 1976, during a game at Dodger Stadium, two protesters, William Thomas and his 11-year-old son, ran into the outfield and tried to set fire to an American flag. Monday, playing with the Cubs, dashed over and grabbed the flag to thunderous cheers. He handed the flag to Los Angeles pitcher Doug Rau, and the ballpark police officers arrested the two intruders. When he came to bat in the next half-inning, he got a standing ovation from the crowd and the big message board behind the left-field bleachers in the stadium flashed the message, “RICK MONDAY… YOU MADE A GREAT PLAY…” He later said, “If you’re going to burn the flag, don’t do it around me. I’ve been to too many veterans’ hospitals and seen too many broken bodies of guys who tried to protect it.”[2] Monday was a U.S. military member himself, having served a commitment with the Marine Corps Reserve as part of his ROTC obligation after leaving Arizona State. On August 25, 2008, Monday was presented with an American flag flown over Valley Forge National Historical Park in honor of his 1976 rescue.[3] Monday still has the flag he rescued from the protesters; he has been offered up to $1 million to sell it, but has declined all offers.

    Don’t desecrate the flag by burning it, ripping it, writing on it, or by overtly using it in any way in any partisan political beef. That’s pretty much all we ask.

  4. But it can be displayed upside down, as a distress signal. The US National Flag Code says so.

    And what’s this official, legal, “flag code” nonsense? Nothing fascistic there, oh no.

    Whoops!

  5. Partisan political debate is constant.

    It is not to be compared with a boat marooned at sea, which is a time for inverting the flag.

  6. Phantom summed up the flag issue perfectly.

    As for the other issue… The two of you know nothing of what you speak. There is a thin blue line that stands between the animals and the civil.

    If you get shot by a cop 999 times out of 1000 you deserved it.

  7. Lads, you’re believing in fictions. It’s religious nonsense. It’s just a bit of cloth.

    The Enlightenment’s happened. Get over worshippng pretendy religious relics.

  8. Pete, I don’t recommend that you disrespect the flag in any part of the United States, especially not in any area where there may be military or military vets around, which is everywhere.

    Semper fi baby.

  9. That’s your argument, that the country is full of zombies who can’t think for themselves?

  10. The problem for guys like you is that people do think for themselves.

    It’s OK.

  11. Flying the flag upside down does not disrespect it, it is a sign of distress then again it is always a matter of context.

    All parties in this video were in the wrong. I understand the passion on both sides.

    If you are going to fly the flag upside down there are consequences, if you feel that the situation warrants the flag being displayed in that matter you best be prepared to defend your reasoning, because there are those that it will offend.

  12. Phantom –

    If those two are Marines or soldiers you should be worried. Disciplined men don’t fly off the handle like that, they don’t use language like that in public and they don’t shout expletives like that across the street. Ladies and children might be present.

    If I were their CO they’d be in jankers.

  13. Pete

    This is a topic that you can’t relate to one way or another. It is beyond your grasp. You have no loyalty to anything and very little honor if any at all.

    You are man filled with bile and hate that processes his thoughts through a filter of lunacy.

    You hate cops, the military, the government, the law, you see the boogyman behind every event. Your not rational. Every comment you make adds weight to just how unbalanced you are. Most things are out of your grasp, this is just another.

  14. Troll –

    That’s your standard, boilerplate insult for someone who disagrees with you.

    Are you done with it now? Can we discuss the actual event and the issues around it?

  15. I’d like to shake the hands of those two gentlemen.

    This country ( and yours, thank you very much ) could use a few just like them.

  16. I don’t have the same attitude to government the police and the law as Pete does but I agree with him about this flag protest. These 2 men were perfectly entitled to fly around with this flag upside down (if it was their legitimate property) as they see fit. It is ludicrous to demand that everyone must show loyalty or respect to an image no matter how revered it may be. Respecting and honouring the flag is only worthwhile if it is voluntary, not compulsory.

  17. Colm –

    This is beyond you’re grasp. You don’t understand code, honor, duty, semper fi. Your a hate filled bag of bile.

    And all that.

  18. no Pete it’s not. I disagree with Phantom on numerous issues (not this one) and insult him on a regular basis.

    I don’t believe he or anyone else except Alan and you on here are crazy. The two of you are not just wrong your unbalanced.

    To discuss an issue reasonably there has to be at the very least a starting point. I could debate David or Phantom about the merits of flying the flag upside down with them.

    They both have an understanding and respect for the symbols. You don’t.

  19. no once again Pete Colm demonstrates rational thought. You demonstrate that you have none.

    Colm they do have that right, I don’t believe the cause they were doing it for justified the flag flying upside down, even if the police were wrong in any of these cases it is a local issue not a national one. They should have flown the New Mexico flag upside down.

    They flew the flag upside down to get a reaction out of people. Well they did get one, not the one I think they were hoping for. As I said if your going to provoke you best be prepared for the reaction. I would bet that there were many others that were disgusted by the display. There just happened to be two that by their very nature were willing to step up and act on their disgust.

    If those that were flying the flag had the same level of conviction as those two soldiers they would have stopped and explained their position.

  20. The thing is Colm Never Flinch.

    You stand by your convictions, you don’t back down, you don’t acquiesce. If you believe in something you stand your ground and damn the consequences.

  21. Troll –

    So explain your reverence, which I’m sure you cultivated entirely by your own mind. Explain this march in superstitious lockstep with so many others.

    Come on, debate.

    And let’s have no meaningless statements about it being ‘our symbol’ and all that. Let’s have some meaningful meat on those bones.

    And do also explain why a free people “best be prepared for the reaction” when they do as they like with a piece of cloth, whether a flag or a flannel, please.

  22. How can someone debate a symbol without discussing it as a symbol. That is exactly what I mean about you having no concept on the topic.

    You don’t grasp national pride because you have none.

    Set the parameters for me. Tell me how does someone debate the reverence of a symbol with someone that says you can’t discuss the fact that it’s a symbol?

  23. Pete, please name all the countries of this world where people are fine with the misuse of their national symbols.

    Since you think that your thoughts are self evident, there must be a really long list.

  24. These bozos are proclaiming that the flag is the symbol of the Land of the Free – “but don’t you go doing anything we don’t like!”

    That’s your argument, that the country is full of zombies who can’t think for themselves?

    Pete,
    I think I have finally figured something out about you.
    (Oh – ohhh!)

    You’re obviously a nice bloke, apparently successful in your field of work, often helpful and you don’t bear a grudge.
    No, what I think I have figured out is that you are so wedded to your libertarian philosophy that you sometimes end up saying things which seem illogical or at odds with common values.
    So in the comments above your emphasis is not on the fact that the ex military took offence at the perceived insult to the US flag, it is that they are (by implication, obedient, brainwashed ‘zombies.’)
    You do not direct your concern at the possible corruption of the police force, you direct it at
    “the flag is the symbol of the Land of the Free – “but don’t you go doing anything we don’t like!”
    In other words you constantly interpret events as evidences that we who believe in the need for government and laws etc. are not truly free, we are dupes; and only people who believe like you really know what is going on, and the things that concern us are really secondary, because if we believed like you believe these things just wouldn’t happen..

  25. Troll, Phantom –

    I want you to explain the symbolism and it’s reverence. I have no problem with symbols, but this idolatrous worship has become a nationalistic hook. Again, I’m a nationalist so have no problem with that, just the self-delusion (as I see it) behind it.

    If that is the symbol of “the Land of the Free”, you must declare the two assailants thieves and defend the right of the scooter boys to do absolutely what they like with the flag, yes? Otherwise you’re not “the Land of the Free”.

    It seems contradictory to hold up the flag as symbolic of certain things for which it supposedly stands, but then laud the closing down of an opinion when two tough guys don’t like that opinion.

    In fact what’s symbolic is the behaviour of the two assailants. It’s symbolic of macho, neo-con foreign policy, where DC now always flies off the handle at anything it doesn’t like, sending in the military muscle to put the locals right.

    You lot need to calm down over there. You’re always jumpy and ready to be offended.

  26. The principle goes well beyond one’s own symbols.

    The Orange burning of Irish tricolors says a whole lot more about the dregs of society that do such things than it does about anyone else.

    I absolutely would not condone any misuse of say Russian Chinese or Iranian flags, etc.

    You simply don’t do these things. If you can’t understand why, then I can’t help you understand. Sorry.

  27. Agit8ed –

    Well I think I’m being fairly consistent, just being led by my principles.

    You say:

    So in the comments above your emphasis is not on the fact that the ex military took offence at the perceived insult to the US flag, it is that they are (by implication, obedient, brainwashed ‘zombies.’)

    If most of a country thinks the same way about a piece of cloth, and most of them (in my opinion) have been soaked from birth in myths and historical untruths, they might be zombies.

    Except the two Marines or soldiers, who should have been thanked for defending everyone’s FREEDUM! Did you know that Americans would be speaking German and living under Taliban occupiers if it wasn’t for them?

    You do not direct your concern at the possible corruption of the police force …

    Well clearly I do. In fact the poster said nothing about manical psychopaths until he had to, and even then it was only in passing. Look, I’ve been aware for a little while about what’s been going on there, because I look at sites which document the growing American police state and what it does. Seriously, every day I could post you brand new videos of American coppers killing innocents.

    But I suppose that would mean I hate the police. You have stand by idly to show how much you love the police – and FREEDUM!

    In other words you constantly interpret events as evidences that we who believe in the need for government and laws etc. are not truly free …

    Well in a way you’re not. What do you think voting is but asking for a new master? Great, you get a new plantation owner – whoopee. Bottom line, if you vote you have no right to complain. You ask for a master, you get a master.

  28. Libertarianism, to the extent that it is a coherent philosophy at all, is a movement tacking toward a permanent mastery by the very rich, who would be unchecked by any counterveiling institutions.

  29. If you can’t understand why, then I can’t help you understand. Sorry.

    There’s no need to apologise for not knowing a subject.

    Look, for well over a decade I’ve read American conservatives moaning and whining and bitching about others being easily offended.

    They hate that ‘liberals’ are easily offended.

    They hate that blacks and hispanics (whatever they are) are easily offended.

    They hate that muslims are easily offended (and that non-muslims gaolers have to handle korans with gloves) – because it’s just a book man!

    They love to point out how others are so easily offended and that “these whiny bitches need to get a backbone and suck it up!” Yep, they talk like this sometimes.

    Well these two whiny, fouled mouthed bitches in Albuquerque need to quit their bitching, mind their own business and suck it up. And if they’re told to put gloves on before handling a koran, they can quit their bitching about that too.

  30. Pete,

    Well in a way you’re not. What do you think voting is but asking for a new master? Great, you get a new plantation owner – whoopee. Bottom line, if you vote you have no right to complain. You ask for a master, you get a master.

    and therein Pete, lies what I consider to be your (unintentional slightly smug :)) ) hypocrisy.
    You see, you are in all this as much as the rest of us. The difference is that you think you are freer than the rest of us! I accept the need for order and my responsibility to try and make that order as fair and as just as it can be in an imperfect world.
    You try to kid yourself that because you interpret events through the lens of libertarianism you are somehow freer than the rest of us. This Pete, is a delusion.
    btw I am not attacking you personally. It’s just that I have often puzzled over what I viewed as an inconsistency in your viewpoints.

    Oh yes. I also don’t think it’s right to ever desecrate a flag. Our argument/protest should always be against the individual or group who besmirch the values our flag represents.

  31. Yes Agit8ed, I accept the need for order too, which is one reason why I reject politicis and government as a solution to anything. Politics and government are corrupt, violent and chaotic. They are antithetical to good order.

    Christians shouldn’t talk of flags being ‘desecrated’. Only holy, sacred objects can be desecrated. A flag is an earthly object.

  32. Pete your insanity and hate is more and more evident with every comment you make.

    You expect people to try and be civil towards you when you show no civility towards others. I temper my words as I write. Fore you are man of such low esteem and value in my view that if I didn’t temper my words I would be rightfully bludgeoned in return by everyone for saying bluntly what comes to mind.

    A8 addressed you in a manner that was reasonable and sound yet none of it penetrated the wall of your dysfunctional view.

    When you refer to people like my family as maniacal psychopaths you don’t even grasp the offense that you give.

    When you make proclamations like What do you think voting is but asking for a new master? Great, you get a new plantation owner – whoopee. Bottom line, if you vote you have no right to complain. You ask for a master, you get a master. it demonstrates your inability to think.

    Voting is not just picking a new master, voting and being politically active is how a civilized man acts. There are only two other things that a person can do, invoke violence to change things, or do nothing and be nothing.

    I do not promote violence, and I could never be apathetic. You are a fool and worse your a belligerent fool who doesn’t even understand the damage that fools like you allow and promote.

  33. Yes Agit8ed, I accept the need for order too, which is one reason why I reject politics and government as a solution to anything. Politics and government are corrupt, violent and chaotic. They are antithetical to good order.

    I think you’re wrong Pete. The problem is not necessarily the philosophy or system, it is US. We are the problem because imo we are flawed. Following your logic we will run into exactly the same problems.

  34. no if we were to follow his logic it would be worse. There would be anarchy.

    Anarchy truly is a world where the strong prey on the weak. That is where his beliefs would take us. He believes we already live in a world where the strong prey on the weak. He knows nothing of the nature of man.

  35. Agit8ed –

    Yes, man is flawed. Best not then put the awesome powers of a State into the hands of a select few, eh? Let’s spread those powers wide and thin, make them diffuse and unable to create much havoc wide across society, yes?

    But I’m afraid the problem is also the institution of the State. Thousands of years of violence, looting and wars says so.

    Only politicians and government make war. Private individuals do not. Only the powers of the State allow for it. Hoping otherwise is to hope against reality.

    “Anarchists did not try to carry out genocide against the Armenians in Turkey; they did not deliberately starve millions of Ukrainians; they did not create a system of death camps to kill Jews, gypsies, and Slavs in Europe; they did not fire-bomb scores of large German and Japanese cities and drop nuclear bombs on two of them; they did not carry out a ‘Great Leap Forward’ that killed scores of millions of Chinese; they did not attempt to kill everybody with any appreciable education in Cambodia; they did not launch one aggressive war after another; they did not implement trade sanctions that killed perhaps 500,000 Iraqi children.

    In debates between anarchists and statists, the burden of proof clearly should rest on those who place their trust in the state. Anarchy’s mayhem is wholly conjectural; the state’s mayhem is undeniably, factually horrendous.”

  36. Only politicians and government make war. Private individuals do not. Only the powers of the State allow for it.

    bullshit

    You ever seen a neighborhood torn apart by two factions of drug dealers? I have. You ever seen a neighborhood torn apart by two factions of organized crime? I have.

    People are violent, not just governments. You think without those maniacal psychopaths with a badge that the streets would be safe?

    You live in a fantasy.

  37. Lions form prides, ants form colonies, and humans form governments. Of whatever simple complex type.

    If you don’t like this fact then la dee dah for you, but it has always been so,

  38. Yes, man is flawed. Best not then put the awesome powers of a State into the hands of a select few, eh? Let’s spread those powers wide and thin, make them diffuse and unable to create much havoc wide across society, yes?

    No Pete, because even if you did spread the powers, eventually a few would end up dominating the many. That is what the history of man tells us. All societies have had a hierarchy and in a sense the societies which have achieved the most have been the most structured..

    Apart from that what (I think ) undermines your case is that because you hold a different view, you think this allows you to disobey the laws (that darned tv licence again).
    But what your actions prove is that you are no more to be trusted than anyone else. You are no more a standard of virtue than those you profess to despise.

    Remember what Jesus said when asked whether the Jews should pay the poll tax or not, and Jesus said ‘render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.
    He didn’t say that because Caesar is a false god that we could disregard his laws.

  39. A8 he will twist that to try and say Jesus said pay no taxes….

    Or that had there been Moishe’s Kosher TV, Jesus wouldn’t have had a licence for His portable..

  40. Agit8ed –

    (Why do people always jump about from topic to random topic when I debate with them?)

    Jesus certainly did not advocate paying taxes. Remember what comes next, after Jesus told the Pharisees to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and to God that which is God’s:

    “When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.”

    Why would they be amazed if he was simply saying, “yeah, pay your taxes”? They tried to entrap him with words but were amazed by this reply, then they went on their way. Clearly their dastardly plot had been foiled. Would you like to know why?

  41. (Why do people always jump about from topic to random topic when I debate with them?)

    How have I done that Pete?
    I enjoy a debate on things I think I understand. My last point was by way of an illustration.

    Clearly their dastardly plot had been foiled. Would you like to know why?
    Go on then, I’ll buy it. As long as it isn’t from the Gospel according to Mahons that is.

  42. Agit8ed –

    Really, you can learn why Jesus was not advocating that taxes should be paid, but it requires a few minutes reading.

    If you’re willng to do that I’ll post the link.

  43. Pete,
    Tortuous logic old son.
    Your man uses a lot of words to say not a lot..

    Look, first off Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. His mission (and yes, He chose to accept it) was to live a life in full conformity to the Law so that when the time came (Passover)for Him to willingly offer His life as a sacrifice for our sins, no sin would be found in Him.
    The Jews on the other hand were looking for a Deliverer, the conquering Messiah who would free them from the yoke of the Romans and establish their kingdom for ever.
    Secondly, the leaders of the Jews themselves acknowledged the authority of the Romans.
    They couldn’t put Jesus to death without the consent of Pontius Pilate the Roman Governor.
    Thirdly, Jesus said “My Kingdom is not of this world,Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
    Jesus recognised that His followers lived in the world as such they should obey the laws of society where they did not conflict with God’s law.
    Jesus DID pay taxes as demonstrated in Matthew 17:24-27…

    “After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”

    “Yes, he does,” he replied.

    When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?”

    “From others,” Peter answered.

    “Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him. “But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”

    So nice try Pete, but wro-oooooongg!

  44. ahh a link to the Alex Jones alternative cite Lewrockwell a loony mans daily manifesto.

    2 things Pete one I never said that Jesus advocated paying taxes, I said you would go off on a rant that he did.

    The second is the fact that where I would willingly discuss the Gospel with A8 or just about anyone on this site I will never discuss religion with you. Religion is a subject of deep thought and subtle nuance. 2 things that you are incapable of.

    I do have a question regarding a section from your loon site.

    II. THE HISTORICAL SETTING: THE UNDERCURRENT OF TAX REVOLT

    In 6 A.D., Roman occupiers of Palestine imposed a census tax on the Jewish people. The tribute was not well-received, and by 17 A.D., Tacitus reports in Book II.42 of the Annals, “The provinces, too, of Syria and Judaea, exhausted by their burdens, implored a reduction of tribute.” A tax-revolt, led by Judas the Galilean, soon ensued. Judas the Galilean taught that “taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery,” and he and his followers had “an inviolable attachment to liberty,” recognizing God, alone, as king and ruler of Israel. The Romans brutally combated the uprising for decades. Two of Judas’ sons were crucified in 46 A.D., and a third was an early leader of the 66 A.D. Jewish revolt. Thus, payment of the tribute conveniently encapsulated the deeper philosophical, political, and theological issue: Either God and His divine laws were supreme, or the Roman emperor and his pagan laws were supreme.

    This undercurrent of tax-revolt flowed throughout Judaea during Jesus’ ministry. All three synoptic Gospels place the episode immediately after Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem in which throngs of people proclaimed Him king, as St. Matthew states, “And when he entered Jerusalem the whole city was shaken and asked, u2018Who is this?’ And the crowds replied, u2018This is Jesus the prophet, from Nazareth in Galilee.” All three agree that this scene takes place near the celebration of the Passover, one of the holiest of Jewish feast days. Passover commemorates God’s deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian slavery and also celebrates the divine restoration of the Israelites to the land of Israel, land then-occupied by the Romans. Jewish pilgrims from throughout Judaea would have been streaming into Jerusalem to fulfill their periodic religious duties at the temple.

    Because of the mass of pilgrims, the Roman procurator of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, had also temporarily taken up residence in Jerusalem along with a multitude of troops so as to suppress any religious violence. In her work, Pontius Pilate: The Biography of an Invented Man, Ann Wroe described Pilate as the emperor’s chief soldier, chief magistrate, head of the judicial system, and above all, the chief tax collector. In Book XXXVIII of On the Embassy to Gaius, Philo has depicted Pilate as “cruel,” “exceedingly angry,” and “a man of most ferocious passions,” who had a “habit of insulting people” and murdering them “untried and uncondemned” with the “most grievous inhumanity.” Just a few years prior to Jesus’ ministry, the image of Caesar nearly precipitated an insurrection in Jerusalem when Pilate, by cover of night, surreptitiously erected effigies of the emperor on the fortress Antonia, adjoining the Jewish Temple; Jewish law forbade both the creation of graven images and their introduction into holy city of Jerusalem. Pilate averted a bloodbath only by removing the images.

    In short, Jerusalem would have been a hot-bed of political and religious fervor, and it is against this background that the Tribute Episode unfolded.

    Look at the names of the locations, look at the names and race of the people in those locations. These events took place 2000 years ago. How is that possible?

    That’s not Jewish territory…. it’s Palestinian. Where are the opinions and stories of the true residents of those lands the Islamic Pallies? Wasn’t it their homeland and not the Jews?

  45. Trollio,
    I rather like Pete. He is an idealistic, good natured, tax avoiding elitist with a tendency to look down on plebs like you and I.
    And Phantom
    And Harri
    Also Colm
    Oh yes, and McMahons..

  46. What happened to Patty?

    The recent shooting at Fort Hood made me think of Charles from Texas, formerly of this parish, who was stationed there at the time of the first shooting. I hope that life is treating him OK.

  47. I was thinking about her last week Phantom. I think perhaps she got a bit too much stick from some here. Mentioning no names of course, but I think she just got tired of it all. Perhaps like Aileen.

  48. I regretfully can’t say the same.

    I do like you.
    And Phantom
    And Harri
    Also Colm
    Oh yes, and McMahons..

    but I really don’t like Pete. It’s not very christian of me, but I am called evil and barbaric by many that frequent here, and that is fine. I as stated on this post that one must stand for their principals and pay the consequences. I willingly accept mine.

    I respect that he stands for his principals, it’s just that his principals go against every fiber of my existence and where I insult most people like Phantom and Mahons I do it with no hate in my heart.

    I honestly believe his insults are genuine and most of the time unrealized. I don’t think he understands what he says will strike some they way that it does. I enjoy a calculated insult. They drive a point home or make a point, I do mine intentionally for effect. He insults without knowing that he does so.

    or it could just by my failing to live and let live where he is concerned. It bothers me that he bothers me.

  49. she is missing… where has she been? Did we loose another?

    She also is on my like list, as are many that I didn’t include. I like you all (most days) even Allan. Charles is another whose conversation is missed.

    I regret a true feeling of animosity for Pete.

  50. there are many I would enjoy seeing return.

    I miss Mad…. hell I miss Felix 🙂

  51. Despite her saying otherwise, I suspect that the constant and personal abuse she received in here played a part in her throwing in the towel. She’s busy with family and work, but that makes your free time all the more precious and no-one needs it ruined by dickheads.

  52. Agit8ed –

    Are you sure you read any of that? For someone who wears his Christianity heavily, you seem incurious about Biblical scholarship.

  53. Troll,

    Or it could just by my failing to live and let live where he is concerned. It bothers me that he bothers me.

    It’s good that it bothers you. It always bothered me that I tended to irritate Aileen. I didn’t want to irritate, but I know I can. I really react to smugness, pomposity and a patronising attitude.

    Having said that I am at my happiest when I achieve a level of peace or toleration or reconciliation with another person. I am not used to not being liked. Most people I interact with like me, even though I am a loud and opinionated person. 😉

    As I get older I realise that we are all at various stages on the same journey, so I want to do good to my fellow travellers rather than evil.
    Pete has often shown a kindness of heart here,and he does actually engage in debate which I appreciate.

  54. ” – she is missing… where has she been? Did we loose another?”?

    Says he with a sly smug smirk! – we might add Daphne as well, also ‘gone missing in action’.

    What the fool doesn’t realise is that when he insults anyone on ATW he effectively, if indirectly, insults us all. If things continue ‘as is’, we will soon be down to four ‘poster’s and half a dozen who comment.

    Tell me! – is this Plan A or B?

  55. Troll –

    At least you read it, or skimmed a bit of it maybe.

    Alas, you seem to have me down as some kind of Tarasov. I’m not at all opposed to Israel’s existence. In fact I wish Israel and Israelis a peaceful future, but unlike you I can view the actions of its government with a critical eye.

    I know you have a feeling of animosity towards me, but then I make you fell unmanly.

    I’m smarter then you (but then who isn’t?), witty, handsome, charming, insightful, well travelled, open minded, popular with the chicks and a man of liberty. In short, I’m everything you’re not.

    And I can spell.

  56. Pete,
    I read the gist of it, not all of it. But I’ve been a Christian for 46 years now and you can be sure that as an Evangelical I’ve heard most variations, mutations and contortions on traditional Christian beliefs or abiogenesis, or evolution.
    Had some right ‘ding dongs’ too, especially in Israel!
    Did you take on board what I wrote about Jesus paying taxes?
    Have a good weekend Pete.

  57. so Ernest everyone that has gone is do to me? even Patty….

    and when have we ever had more than 3-4 posters? That has always been a very small group.

    I’ll take the blame for some, but do you honestly believe I am responsible for all those that have gone? Was I responsible for Mad, Felix, Charles, etc etc please list those I have driven away and how. Was I responsible for the fact that one of our posters had to turn the comments off on all his threads because of the bile spewed at him?

    You cast accusations that you can not back up.

  58. Pete oh boo hoo you can’t view anything with a critical eye, a jaundiced one would be a more apt description.

    I’m glad you feel as positive about yourself as you do, most psychopaths believe the same.

    As for making me feel “unmanly”…. LOL I don’t even know how to respond to that.

    I’m curious how YOU measure manliness? Please explain. C’mon provide us with a good laugh.

  59. I kind of like ATW because I bug people…and sometimes I like to bug people on ATW. But I’m not a masochist or mean-spirited or vindicative. At the end of the day, this place always makes me laugh (and not in a sarcastic or cynical way…well, maybe sometimes). It’s a fascinating mix of people who you wouldn’t meet in one place at one time anywhere else but on ATW.

  60. Troll –

    The simple fact that I try to be honest with myself and others makes me more manly than you.

    Would you like to debate something? Every thread – every thread without fail – on which you appear descends into insults. You have a great ability to drag everything down to insults.

    Try simply debating a topic, please.

  61. I kind of like ATW because I bug people…and sometimes I like to bug people on ATW.

    Hmm.
    you’ll have to tip me the wink next time, so’s I can brace myself..

  62. Hmmmm…that doesn’t look right now that you’ve block quoted it…I meant that I like that people are bothered by me on ATW…and sometimes I like to bother people on ATW.

    A8, I will wink at you provided the missus knows no harm meant…gotta have respect…;-)

  63. It’s a fascinating mix of people who you wouldn’t meet in one place at one time anywhere else but on ATW.

    Yeah, but I’m still grateful for the distances..
    As Woody Allan once said quoting Isaiah,
    “And the lion and the lamb shall lie down together
    … but the lamb won’t get much sleep..”

  64. not true Pete. When am I not honest? When over the past ten years have my positions on any topic varied? Mahons tried to go down that path many times, the best he was able to do was find one misquote. Show me my dishonesty.

    As I said you insult people unconsciously. You are honest in what you believe as am I.

    You claim that I don’t debate I just insult. That is your opinion I may throw an insult in with my debate, but you insult with your debate.

    I will call you crazy, a git, or something else as a punctuation to a point. My insults are always finite to an individual. You on the other hand blanket whole swaths of people with your bile. You speak of individualism but you cast aspersions on whole groups. The only other one who does that is Allan, and he only does it to one group where you do it to many.

    If you want to debate something put it up, try not to insult whole groups of people for a change as you do it. I have stated my feelings regarding you personally if it bothers you that I hit you directly don’t engage with me. It really is that simple.

    I love the fact that you believe you can say things and not expect to be called to task on it. You are the most insulting person on here.

  65. Mairin you are always a welcome addition whether we are throwing stones at each other or in agreement.

  66. “so Ernest everyone that has gone is do to me? even Patty….”

    That isn’t what I said, – but if you are laying claim to the title, who am I to deny you?

    I say -“bring back Grizzly Mama!”.

  67. Off air for the next hour
    ICE ROAD TRUCKERS is on!
    Boy, you can tell I’m getting old…

  68. We haven’t agreed much over the years, Troll…if we were on a seesaw my leftyness would balance out your rightyness. And if it wasn’t balanced, I’d probably cheat and put rocks in my pockets because that’s what us lefties do. 😛 But I think we’ve been able to take the good with the bad. Happy Birthday to Monica BTW. I hope she had a lovely day!

  69. she will never come back, she is one that is on the list of those that have been driven away. Since she has been my wife for 27yrs I don’t think I can be blamed for it.

    You did “infer” that I was responsible Ernest. With your whole comment.

    Ernest Young, on April 4th, 2014 at 6:54 PM Said:

    ” – she is missing… where has she been? Did we loose another?”?

    Says he with a sly smug smirk! – we might add Daphne as well, also ‘gone missing in action’.

    What the fool doesn’t realise is that when he insults anyone on ATW he effectively, if indirectly, insults us all. If things continue ‘as is’, we will soon be down to four ‘poster’s and half a dozen who comment.

    Tell me! – is this Plan A or B?

    I will make an observation with a question. Why is it Ernest that the only comments you make are to pop up and throw an insult at me?

    Other than attacking me what was the last thing you commented on? I can’t remember can you?

  70. oh and how’s this for leftyness…my daughter is spending spring break in Cuba…studying, of course…as long as she’s not ‘bird watching’ like some of those Belfastians (or is it Belfasters?) are known to do…I’m thrilled.

  71. good god Cuba….

    can you actually legally go there as a normal american citizen, or does she have dual citizenship? and what is she going to study?

    None of my business and don’t answer about her citizenship if you don’t feel comfortable. I’m confused (I know, don’t go there) but I thought you were NYr

  72. Of course she’s with a legitimate program! From the photos she’s sending, I think she’s studying something to do with cigars. 🙁 She goes to a Jesuit uni…you know their links with communism… 😉
    It’s a short program…spring break study…having to do with art and museums; she’s there with professors. She’s an ‘international’ but she’s there on her US passport. It’s all legit.

  73. Troll,

    I comment frequently, not every day, as there are days when I am busy, or the posts are of little interest.

    I had several comments yesterday and three or four today, and have been fairly cocnsistent for more years than I care to remember, that I try to put some thought into my commenes rather than just submitting one liners or cut and paste items.

    Thank you for making it obvious that you are only interested in your pitiful attempts to interest but a few.

    Quite apart from that, you may have noticed that there are days when you are often the biggest commenter of your own postings – surely a sign that you are failing to commnicate in any meaningful way with your readers, and that your reason for posting is soley egocentric.

  74. , I think she’s studying something to do with cigars. 🙁 She goes to a Jesuit uni…you know their links with communism…

    Ice Roads is over for another week. Boy I enjoy that programme. Like ATW on wheels..
    mairin2 I wish your daughter every happiness and that she keeps safe.
    You think she’ll be freaked out when she discovers those cigars are sealed with Cuban ear wax?
    Keeps ’em moist…

    🙂

  75. She is safe, A8. She’s very smart and has traveled quite a bit on several continents and is fluent in Spanish. BUT THANK YOU for the air wax info…that ought to scare her!!!! And if it doesn’t, I’ll tell her they add snotters for luck!

  76. Agit.

    I always liked the thought of cigars being rolled on maidens thighs, – it added a certain piquancy to the thought of enjoying a smoke.

  77. Ernest you’re quite welcome.

    Quite apart from that, you may have noticed that there are days when you are often the biggest commenter of your own postings – surely a sign that you are failing to commnicate in any meaningful way with your readers, and that your reason for posting is soley egocentric.

    Of course they are egocentric they are my posts on what interest me. and I engage with all who post on them. It would be rude not to, so of course my comments would be the majority.

    If you paid attention over the years the majority of the time you would know I only comment on three types of posts mine, terrorism, and American politics. I don’t comment on most issues. It is a rare occasion that I stray from those 3.

    Tell me why should I care if I interest anyone? It’s nice if I do, but I write for me. I write to put out a view that is not represented by anyone on your side of the pond.

    My views may not be held by the majority of Americans, and certainly not by anyone outside of America. What is important though is that when things get out of hand it is the segment of my country that share my views that the rest of you will have to deal with.

    Country, Guns, and God this is my job. To always be that little voice in the background. The one that will never let any of you forget who the real fighters are. There are those that believe we should be kept behind a glass that says break in case of war. We keep the nation safe, we deliver the pain when it needs to be delivered.

    You don’t have to like me or people like me, just don’t forget when push comes to shove and the talking comes to an end. It is the people like me that will be coming.

    G Gordan Liddy was once asked what he would do. He put his hand over the flame of a candle and held it there while his skin cooked. After he removed it he was asked what was the trick. His answer was the trick is not minding.

    So I write. I just put down my thoughts as I was raised to believe. If I offend you oh well. Contrary to what you may believe the numbers of people that share my beliefs and convictions are much larger than you think, and we really don’t care what you think. We are who we are and we are better than the rest of you 🙂

    I have tried to apolagize to you for insulting you, you being a man of no honor refuse to let it go. That is your choice.

    Understand I am never going away. I am never going to change. We are the cops, the soldiers, the firemen, the ambulance drivers. We are the face in the darkness that if you are doing wrong you don’t want to see, but if you need help will always be there.

    We hold the line. It is an Honor to do so.

  78. Ernest,
    of course, but I was being the gentleman and not mentioning that in front of mairin2.
    Plus I figured the ear wax coating porkie might put her daughter off smoking…

  79. Dominican Cigars have surpassed the cuban ones. Glad to here she didn’t sneak in in some care turned into a boat Mairin 🙂

  80. When over the past ten years have my positions on any topic varied?

    Troll

    Out of interest, have any of your views on the big issues changed to any degree as a result of ATW?

  81. I think that’s the Irish ones. They do quality control on Guinness. You’re thinking of the Benedictines.. and the Carthusian order makes Chartreuse.
    A bit weird really, but better than plotting Inquistions I suppose…

  82. We are the face in the darkness that if you are doing wrong you don’t want to see, but if you need help will always be there.

    lol

  83. “I just love the opportunity to let the beast show.” – of course you do, and giving us the perfect example of autistic behaviour usually found in adolescents.

    That you seem to exist in a fantasy world where your under achievement serves merely to fuel your envy rather than your ambition, as your comment at 9.39 p.m. amply demonstrates.

    May God help us if we really had to rely on the likes of you in an emergency!

  84. The are coming along, Agie. I don’t have a particularly big garden but it’s sufficient.

    Is that rooster still walking up and down the path outside your house?

  85. //My insults are always finite to an individual. You on the other hand blanket whole swaths of people with your bile. //

    The Irish?
    US Democrats?
    Arabs?
    The French?
    Liberals?
    Muslims?

    //We are the cops, the soldiers, the firemen, the ambulance drivers.//

    But, Troll, you aren’t any of these? If you are so obsessed with these professions, why didn’t you make a career of one?

  86. I was I was in the Dominican Republic in September-October…Cuban cigars are actually made in DR to get past the trade sanctions…it’s a huge operation! I went past the factory in La Romano on the way to Santo Domingo…lots of jobs created.

  87. oh so now I’m autistic. Did you ever work with autistic children Ernest, or were you one?

    What underachievement? If your going to judge my life put yours up. You don’t have the nerve do you Ernest?

    What do you do for a living, do you have a wife, how many kids, what did you do in the military? You ever run for office? You ever been arrested?

    Come on regal us with your achievements. You got the balls to put yourself up for inspection old man?

    Ernest your a grump, but if you collapsed in front of me I would still try to revive you. Would you do the same?

    Who would you like to save you in an emergency the likes of Pete, or on a national level the French?

  88. //what did you do in the military?//

    Troll, Ernest is one of the very few here, if not the only one, who ever saw combat.

  89. Noel I served my country in the Air Force, when I got out I was waiting to get into the police academy when I was in a construction accident and broke my back. It took me 3 years to learn to walk again. I have pins throughout my body and therefore could not qualify.

    I am the first male in four generations of my family that is not a cop. How about you?

  90. Good for him Noel was it against the Kaiser?

    I don’t disparage his service, I thank him for it. Unlike him I will gladly give him his honor and respect for it. He earned it.

    He is the one calling me an underachiever.

  91. We are the face in the darkness that if you are doing wrong you don’t want to see, but if you need help will always be there.

    We hold the line. It is an Honor to do so.

    Good grief, he still thinks he’s Jack Nicholson’s Colonel, holding fort, standing post and all that in the dark night. I don’t blame him; there are millions of like-minded GOP fantasists. Go look at any GOP blog. There must be a billion US Marine veterans out there, all typing ‘semper fi’ to each other, all of them fantasists who’d wet themselves in a fight.

  92. Peter, on April 4th, 2014 at 9:43 PM Said:

    When over the past ten years have my positions on any topic varied?

    Troll

    Out of interest, have any of your views on the big issues changed to any degree as a result of ATW?

    Sadly no. It if anything has entrenched them. I have seen arguments made on here in the defense of terrorists. I find some of the views on here appalling.

    I have respect for our differences on the climate, even though you haven’t convinced me of why you believe what you believe. In spite of all the evidence of the failure in the predictions and the evidence of fraud in how they got their numbers you are steadfast in your belief.

    Have you had any opinions changed by the discourse on here?

    What we both have gained at least I have, is a glimpse of how things are viewed by two groups of people with similar histories and common roots. Somethings are shared others are not. It is always educational on that front.

  93. Who would you like to save you in an emergency the likes of Pete, or on a national level the French?

    Good Lord, this from the man who just upbraided someone for apparently “blanketing whole swaths of people with bile.”

    Well I wouldn’t do a catastrophic job of tending to someone, since Ive had some medical training and have put it to use a couple of times. I even once saved a man who’d ate American food.

    But the French? Cleary this Yank has never heard of Yorktown or Lafayette, the ungrateful wretch. He’s also never heard of Verdun either, or he wouldn’t so glibly insult them.

  94. Thank you Pete.

    You just confirmed that I am not the only american that believes as I do 🙂

    Now as for your opinion of us wetting ourselves. Ask anyone that has faced us on the field.

    here just for you. Now understand that this is a movie and what the character did in the movie was a crime, but these words represent a real mindset. One that a lot of people are proud to hold. No matter how grotesque you find it.

  95. Pete yes I can be hypocritical at times….

    as for the French their part in our revolution was very over rated, as for Verdun what happened between then and WWII? the Germans marched through their country in 3 days…. they are duplicitous and smelly 🙂

  96. Look all of you Lighten up.

    My country is in a mess, as is all of your countries. Economically we have all been screwed by the people we put in control.

    Each of us has our priorities and our beliefs in how the problems we face should be fixed, even for that matter what the problems are.

    I am a purposeful caricature, 10% of what I write is designed to piss you off. You would think that after 12 years you would know when I am in theater mode…. then again some of you aren’t really that bright.

    Being bombastic and larger than life is a tool. Everything I write I believe, but I do enjoy laying it on thick… 😉

    remember some of us are sicker than others.

  97. Why does anyone of sound mind respond to this morally bankrupt, intellectually defective individual?

    There’s no enlightened reasoning to be found or insightful argument to be hashed. Troll’s dwarfed point of view is a wasteland of toxicity, the sharp rump of ignorance, a fetid field where all sound rationality withers into vapid dust.

    To enter this man’s darkened boxing ring is to cede all scope of intelligent human sentience.

    If you men exercised a modicum of restraint by declining to engage this stupid sack of shit or if David had an ounce of manly balls, maybe this site would have more than half dozen commenters.

    Once upon a time, the place was vibrant.

    Now you have Troll.

  98. The nation can certainly stand someone disrespecting the flag. In fact the right to disrespect it demonstrates why the nation it stands for is strong at its core. It is only when dissent is forbidden that we grow weak.

  99. Why does anyone of sound mind respond to this morally bankrupt, intellectually defective individual?

    Ask yourself that question. You felt compelled to comment. You always do. Why? In spite of your insistence that I drove you away, you still can’t help yourself but to comment regarding me whenever you show up.

    Tsk Tsk You belittle others for a lack of restraint that you prove over and over that you don’t have.

    Once upon a time a phoney who tried to pass herself off as a conservative was a regular on ATW then her falsehood and bile was exposed now she only shows up to give us her bile. As for your intelligence you’ve never demonstrated any here honey.

    Daphne your a fraud and your bitter, as for ATW not being vibrant our stats show otherwise, and me I’ve always been here.

  100. The nation can certainly stand someone disrespecting the flag. In fact the right to disrespect it demonstrates why the nation it stands for is strong at its core. It is only when dissent is forbidden that we grow weak.

    The flag is a symbol of a nation or a people. It can represent oppression or freedom. In our/your case it is not thefore the flag that should be attacked, but those ruthless or cynical men who corrupt what it stands for.

    Petr,
    I didn’t really have you down as a man of the soil, but then again considering your roots
    …geddit?
    The pheasant we think has now got a mate. He’s still around and flies into the garden, but he’s lost his strut and looks like a man who really enjoys being married, but still needs a break now and then.. 🙂
    Our red legged partridge couple whom we nicknamed Claud and Renata, have disappeared. Pity. We liked them pecking around the garden.
    Next week I shall be showing you how to instal a wild life pond, a wild life pond..

  101. Agie — A wild life pond sounds great!

    Troll — Serious questions:

    1. Do you carry a gun with you at all times?

    2. What happened on the occasions you had to draw it?

  102. Mahons 1.36am comment represents the most genuinely patriotic attitude to the ideals of the American people,nation and flag.

  103. Ponds are fantastic I installed two at my Moms house one with fountain and one with a waterfall. They’re really not hard to do either.

    Petr yes about 90% of the time, the two occasions both took place in Philly. The first me, my wife and my first daughter was about a month old. We were coming out of a downtown Hospital going into a parking Garage when two guys came around the corner and and told us to give them our money. One of them had his hand in his coat making it look like he had a gun. I reached around and instead of pulling my wallet I pulled a 45. When they saw the gun they ran. They weren’t caught.

    The second I had picked my daughter up at a dance and a guy walked over to the car and smashed my window out with a bat he reached into the car and grabbed me. I pulled my revolver and stuck it in his face. He let go and I held him there at gun point while someone else called 911. After he was arrested we found out the guy thought I was someone who had attacked his girlfriend. Same type of car etc etc he got charged and had previous arrests for assault He got 1-3 served 1.

    In both cases thank god I didn’t have to shoot.

  104. Thanks for sharing, Troll. Both occasions, particularly the second, sound frightening.

  105. they were both very frightening, the second one really shook me up.

    no Mai, kate is a no show

  106. Mahons 1.36am comment represents the most genuinely patriotic attitude to the ideals of the American people,nation and flag

    Nonsense!
    Trampling on or burning or spitting or ripping a flag is something I associate with this kind of thing..
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pictures+of+the+American+flAG+BEING+BURNT&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=He0_U-vPCc2AhQf2yIG4BA&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=598#q=pictures+of+the+American+flag+being+burnt&tbm=isch

    And burning or defecating on a flag is very easy to do.

  107. Agit8ed –

    Blowing your top at the drop of a hat is something I associate with this kind of thing.

    The pair of heroes who grabbed the flag saved the holy cloth from desecration have much in common with Islamic Rage Boy. They’re a mirror image.

  108. Surely men who have put their lives on the line in the military for what they believe that flag represents have the right as citizens to rescue it from abuse?

    Making a cheap statement by abusing the flag of a free and democratic nation may be permissible but it says more about you as a person than it does the society that flag represents.
    Those same morons and I mean morons, will be screaming for their rights were they to be arrested. And where do those rights come from and who ensures their survival?

  109. Surely men who have put their lives on the line in the military for what they believe that flag represents have the right as citizens to rescue it from abuse?

    No they don’t, it’s not their property. What’s so difficult to understand about this? I stil don’t believe they’re military anyway. Alot of young American men are fantasists and military wannabes.

    You’re saying “put their lives on the line in the military” – for what? To act like neighbourhood bullies and grab whatever they like? Hey, they’re suited for a government job!

    Those same morons and I mean morons, will be screaming for their rights were they to be arrested.

    So? They’re entitled to their rights. The way the US is going, flipping the flag over probably gets you on a no-fly list already. FREEDUM!

    And where do those rights come from and who ensures their survival?

    Oh come on Agit8ed, wake wakey.

    Their rights don’t come from government, they don’t come from anywhere. Their rights exist simply because they exist. No-one can grant or remove them.

    You think the military ensures the survival of these rights (which are being dwindled by government)? Don’t tell me you think Ameicans would be speaking German without the military. You’re supposed to grow out of believing fairy tales at some point.

    Listen, if the military was into protecting liberties they’d march on DC.

  110. The Troll, on April 5th, 2014 at 12:40 AM Said:

    Look all of you Lighten up.

    My country is in a mess, as is all of your countries. Economically we have all been screwed by the people we put in control.

    Bizarrely, when at least two of us point out who these people are, we are told that we are ‘kooks’.

  111. Agit8ed –

    Half the people here have no idea what I go on about, I suspect.

    You think the US military defends American freedoms? Who from? When was the US last in danger from invasion? Clear those empty slogans from your mind and think about it.

  112. Allan,
    Yes the problems are caused by political leadership. In the US they have a choice between the Democrats and the Republicans, here between Labour and Conservatives. These two parties have control of the state officially on our behalf, but actually for their own purposes. The people have no power really because they lack the leadership and organisation to overthrow the system.
    This is not exactly a plot, it’s more a series of events and omissions that has brought us to this point.

  113. We were attacked in a significant way 13 years ago.

    And you didn’t understand any part of that..

  114. Clear those empty slogans from your mind and think about it.

    Can you not see the patronising arrogance in that comment?
    Do you not think that a person who has remained a person of faith despite all the things I have read, all the debates and arguments I have enjoyed doesn’t think about things?
    Someone who has been around the world, lived and worked on kibbutzim and in Christian communities wouldn’t think about the world he lives in? I don’t think in the same terms or depth that a scientist or a philosopher might, but I have talked to people who are far more educated than I am.
    I don’t think you mean it but it is patronising of you to suggest I should clear those empty slogans from my mind….

  115. //Surely men who have put their lives on the line in the military for what they believe that flag represents //

    I’d say it’s very doubtful that most men who put their lives on the line do so for something a “flag represents”.
    Men put their lives on the line because they find themselves in a particular situation and their training and esprit de corps lead them to that response since they are part of a fighting unit, and they join the army for 1000 different reasons.

    As for flag burning, most people get all pious about flags when they are symbols of things they respect. How many here would get so annoyed at seeing, say, a Hamas flag burned? Most would be overjoyed.

    I propose at the next ATW summit we burn an Irish, an American, a British and a Hamas flag 🙂

  116. Agit8ed –

    You implied that the US military “ensures the survival” of American liberties. This is nonsense. It’s the kind of propagandistic drivel which keeps the voter drones voting, the tax-victims on the plantation and the most people thinking that just one more election will make everything right – if only we elect the right people.

    It’s a fairytale, a fable, a myth, and it’s quite pernicious for it. It justifies cruel wars of aggression and the always increasing looting of the productive at home. Who can question or disagree when the military defends freedum?!

    The American military, in various ways, has killed many poor civilians in its last few wars thousands of miles from the US, and at all times we’re supposed to believe the absurd idea that it’s in defnece of freedom. Yet American children have their lemonade stands closed down by the police, the TSA sexually assaults travellers, the NSA has launched into the blanket surveillance of Americans and none of them can still smoke a Cuban cigar.

    Some defence of liberty!

    I asked some straight questions: Who does the military defend these freedoms from? When was the US last under threat of invasion?

    What, Americans would be speaking German now? Were the Taliban about to invade? Of course not.

  117. Agit8ed, on April 5th, 2014 at 1:53 PM Said:

    Allan,
    Yes the problems are caused by political leadership

    But who owns the ‘political leadership’?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-gop-candidates-kiss-up-to-billionaire-sheldon-adelson/2014/04/01/5ba335dc-b9dc-11e3-9a05-c739f29ccb08_story.html

    When Sheldon Adelson, the world’s eighth-richest person, according to Forbes, let it be known that he was looking for a Republican candidate to back in the 2016 presidential race, these four men rushed to Las Vegas over the weekend to see if they could arrange a quickie marriage in Sin City between their political ambitions and Adelson’s $39.9 billion fortune.

    Adelson was hosting the Republican Jewish Coalition at his Venetian hotel and gambling complex, and the would-be candidates paraded themselves before the group, hoping to catch the 80-year-old casino mogul’s eye. Everybody knows that, behind closed doors, politicians often sell themselves to the highest bidder; this time, they were doing it in public, as if vending their wares at a live auction.

    In addition to Adelson, two of the world’s other top-10 billionaires, David and Charles Koch (combined net worth: $81 billion) are pouring tens of millions into the 2014 midterm elections in an effort to swing the Senate to Republican control. These and other wealthy people, their political contributions unleashed by the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision, are buying the U.S. political system in much the same way Russian oligarchs have acquired theirs. (Super-rich liberals such as Tom Steyer are spending some of their fortunes to help Democrats, but they are pikers by comparison.) Spending by super PACs, a preferred vehicle of billionaires, will surpass spending by all candidates combined this year, predicts Kantar Media, which tracks political advertising.

  118. You implied that the US military “ensures the survival” of American liberties.

    No the law does that. I meant that the military defends the country and many people who go in the forces do so because they believe in their country. It isn’t wrong Pete, to stick up for something you believe in especially if you have put your life on the line. Do you think those guys don’t know the difference between abusing the flag and a corrupt police department?
    You think they’re so brainwashed that “It’s my country right or wrong”?)

  119. I propose at the next ATW summit we burn an Irish, an American, a British and a Hamas flag 🙂

    Not forgetting a pretty rainbow flag. But leave out the red flags -we might need those.

  120. A8, I tend to lean toward Mahon’s view on this issue. I just don’t get all het up about the flag being held upside down during a protest. I haven’t researched it lately but I believe taking such action (upside down flag) falls under freedom of speech…not a method I would choose or recommend because I think it fails as an effective measure…but relatively harmless. As for the guys who snatched it away…I think as men with training (assuming they were actually in the military) should show more restraint. There are other ways they could have counter-demonstrated the ‘insult’ to the flag by e.g., flying an right-held one or arguing with the demonstrator. It’s a bit ironic here because the protest was against police who are perceived (I don’t know anything about this case) to have overreacted resulting in a homeless (harmless?) man’s death…and then in my mind, the alleged military men overreacted. Around and around we go.

  121. Agit8ed –

    I meant that the military defends the country …

    Who from?! I’m asking for the third time, who is the US military defending the place from? WHO?!

    And what’s the point of “defending the country” while the government rapes it and wraps everyone tightly in millions of laws? Why defend the country from thousands of miles away while millions of illegal immigrants are swanning around?

    You think they’re so brainwashed that “It’s my country right or wrong”?)

    Many people are so brainwashed, yes. They’re so brainwashed they believe the acts of politicians constitute “my country”. They’re so brainwashed they cannot tell the difference between state and society.

  122. mairin2.
    Fair enough that’s your opinion, but I still don’t agree. I don’t agree with making fun of religious symbols either, neither Catholic nor Protestant nor even any other religion. I think symbols including flags are potent and emotive. We may argue face to face about hypocrisy and exploitation or the abuse of power, but simply abusing a flag achieves nothing and to my mind insults a lot of people who served or died defending what they believe it stood for.
    I wouldn’t be dogmatic about it, but that’s how I feel.

  123. Who from?! I’m asking for the third time, who is the US military defending the place from? WHO?!

    From its enemies, both internal and external.

    Every nation that ever existed had a military Pete. You must know that.

  124. I don’t think holding the upside down flag was intended to be ‘making fun of it’. I think it was a (misguided perhaps) nonverbal statement objecting to the state (the police) overstepping its boundaries/taking things too far/overreacting and killing an innocent man. Again, I don’t know anything about this case but it is not a crime to hold the flag upside down. I don’t think the guys who snatched it away showed patriotism or intelligence. I can forgive them for overreacting and I think it would be a good debate if they are brave enough to come forward and defend themselves. We’ll have to see about that…according to this link, they haven’t owned up to their actions.

  125. Agit8ed

    The US Flag is the symbol of the American Nation. Therefore it is both commonly and individually owned by all American citizens. If a US citizen wishes to demonstrate hi view that he is proud of his country and its achievements he can freely do so by flying the flag on his property on his car or just waving it on a parade. If another US citizen feels differently and is ashamed of the way his country is operating or what it is doing he can also display his opinion by hoisting his country’s national symbol in a negative manner to show his viewpoint. That is what free speech is. That is something for a nation to be proud of.

  126. But just to clarify, I disagree with Colm’s statement that Mahon’s post is the most patriotic…I don’t think what I say or what Mahon’s says or what Troll says or anyone else is anything but an interpretation of our laws and our country…and long after we’re all gone these issues will be dabated and should be. I’ve said before that I don’t look at the world as cyclical…it’s more of a pendulum and will swing according to what’s happening.

  127. mairin

    The term ‘most patriotic’ is not and cannot be a objective one.It is not scientifically measurable like something being the biggest shortest fastest etc. There will always be different interpretations of what constitutes the best display of patriotism and those differences are not ‘wrong’ or ‘right’. I just think that statement by Mahons was for me the closest example here of the best reason for an American to be proud of the United States.

  128. I don’t think the guys who snatched it away showed patriotism or intelligence. I can forgive them for overreacting and I think it would be a good debate if they are brave enough to come forward and defend themselves.

    mairin2
    Good idea – or we could debate it here on ATW.
    As most know I do not espouse the idea of “My country right or wrong.”
    I believe in truth, justice, fairness and compassion, and I try to ensure that the base or homeland in which I learnt those ideals remains intact and continues to uphold them.
    Someone once said,
    ‘Freedom is a precious flower,’
    not something you can assume as a given but a privilege that needs to be nurtured and protected.

  129. Agit8ed

    ‘Freedom is a precious flower’

    Exactly – and it is best protected and nourished by defending it exactly when controversial uncomfortable and even offensive demonstrations like this are challenged.

  130. Colm,
    As Phantom said in the beginning the flag is a unifying symbol of a great country. Surely the better thing to do (and more illustrative of a great country) would be to have organise a protest rally outside the governor’s house or whatever, complete with flags held high? That’s civilised, that’s dignified. That’s making a point.

  131. Agit8ed

    So freedom means only expressing yourself in approved ways ?

    Flying the flag held high makes a point yes,and so does flying the flag upside down if that’s what an individual wants to do. Both are equally valid ways of making a political point. Unfree countries without respect for individual liberty have rules and traditions forbidding insulting the national religion/flag/head of state/ government or other symbols and entities. Free countries don’t and don’t need to .

  132. So freedom means only expressing yourself in approved ways ?

    Nope, in ways more representative of the values of the nation.
    Does the nation conduct its business by self expression or by a recognised code of behaviour? When people complain about MP’s expenses abuses or their conduct in the Houses of Parliament, they are saying this is not the way we do things. This is not what we expect from those who represent us.

  133. I’m one of those people who don’t attach much to symbols. But I also don’t go out of my way to disrespect them. Personally, I think all invovled in this incident could have made better choices. I’d like to see these guys (who held the flag upside down and who snatched it away) come forward and explain themselves. I want to hear their words. I’ve no problem debating should’ve, would’ve, could’ve on ATW. That’s what we do 🙂 That’s why we’re here. I hope we hear from one side or other…until then…pretty much a non-issue from here on end for me.

  134. mairin2
    the voice of reason strikes again!
    (I like arguing 😉 )
    You and Colm should form an online club.

  135. What has this got to do with MPs fiddling their expenses. This is about individual freedom of speech and expression. If an individual believes his nation is not behaving in a way that deserves respect then why should he be forced to respect the flag or other national symbol ?.An individual who is ashamed of his nation is just as entitled to express that as visually as the proud flag waver is.

    No matter how you try and frame it you are still demanding respect and in fact by doing so that view actually undermines the values of freedom and justified pride. A healthy and free nation can comfortably cope with and indeed will happily accommodate its misfits, detractors and refuseniks and not seek to instil a forced unifying respect code relating to flags symbols or political offices.

  136. A healthy and free nation can comfortably cope with and indeed will happily accommodate its misfits, detractors and refuseniks and not seek to instil a forced unifying respect code relating to flags symbols or political offices.

    But sometimes these things get out of balance and freedom of expression can start putting freedom before order, and we then start to go into chaos.
    Look, when an issue arises that really provokes a response from me I will join a demonstration. I think I would go to prison if I felt strongly enough about it.
    And in that prison I might be allowed to practice all sorts of protesting with a flag.
    If they’d let me… 🙂

  137. A8…to paraphrase Groucho Marx…I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member! I like to argue too but the sun is shining on NYC…our daffodils and crocuses are blooming and the outdoors is a calling!

  138. Go for it girl!
    Skipping through the park unashamed and unembarrassed..
    just like me when I do the ironing….. 😉

  139. Pete Moore, on April 5th, 2014 at 1:48 PM Said:

    Agit8ed –

    Half the people here have no idea what I go on about, I suspect.

    You think the US military defends American freedoms? Who from? When was the US last in danger from invasion? Clear those empty slogans from your mind and think about it.

    We are invaded daily on our southern border.

    You like to pretend that we are not at risk. Even though 3000 people died in attack on us on Sept 11th.

    Clear the idiocy from your mind and look at the history of mankind. You think you are safe. You are not. You have no real army, navy, or air force. The only real defense you have are nukes and you’ll never use them.

    The history of the world is one of invasions and war. Tell me the time in history even current when there wasn’t war. You want to paint a picture that the only threat in the world are the people from their own governments. The facts of 4000yrs prove you wrong.

    But that’s ok you just keep living in your fantasy.

  140. The US spends more on its military than most other countries combined, and on 9/11 it was completely useless. The US military ‘defends America’, but on 9/11 it was completely useless.

  141. So it was, Pete….new tactics were used. Avoidable…probably. So we work to find a balance. It’s rather late to be riding a high horse…have a good night.

  142. Pete

    Those observations were made in 2001.

    When the US and other nations seek to learn from these incidents, you guys scoff at them, when you’re not denying that they happened at all, via mad Trutherism theories.

  143. Agit8ed, on April 5th, 2014 at 5:55 PM Said:

    Go for it girl!
    Skipping through the park unashamed and unembarrassed..
    just like me when I do the ironing…..

    Only with far less wrinkles, and slightly more happier 😉

  144. …and with more clothes on!

    slightly more happier

    …and with better grammar!

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