73 1 min 7 yrs

I read this story in horror;

The Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary has told Bon Secours nuns that they have a moral obligation to engage with an examination of how 796 children died and were buried in a mass grave.

The remains of the youngsters were interred in a concrete septic tank in the grounds of a home in Tuam, run by the Sisters of the Bon Secours, between 1925 and 1961. A “scoping exercise” to determine the facts behind the case will begin shortly, with a number of government departments involved.

I am wondering WHY the Nuns needed to reminded that they have a “moral obligation” to explain why these 796 children under their care ended up in a mass grave in a septic tank?

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73 thoughts on “SUFFER LITTLE CHILDREN..

  1. The absolute evils of religion knows no bounds.

    Harri,
    You want to prove a point because you don’t believe.
    That’s okay, that’s your right as a Klingon.

    But you ignore all the Christians who have done all manner of good things for society and their neighbours because of their faith in Christ.

  2. If this happened at one such home, one should ask whether it happened at any others.
    But will anyone in a position of power actually ask?
    Somehow I doubt if they will.

  3. Does the good that religion does out-weigh the evil? It’s getting harder and harder to believe it does.

  4. Harri,
    You want to prove a point because you don’t believe.
    That’s okay, that’s your right as a Klingon.

    I think you will find that Klingons believe in multiple gods, so therefore I can not possibly be a Klingon because I am an Atheist 😉

  5. simeongrimes, on June 5th, 2014 at 11:04 AM Said:

    Does the good that religion does out-weigh the evil? It’s getting harder and harder to believe it does.

    Maybe that is why it is called ‘blind faith’

  6. simeongrimes,
    Human beings created in the image of God i.e. with free will and the ability to choose and procreate, are also hierarchical.
    We want leaders.
    That’s how Saul came to be King of Israel.
    “But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees;[a] for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”
    1 Samuel 16:7

    If God wanted to provide irrefutable proof that He exists, what would be the point of free will?
    If God the Uncreated is Unique, how could He devise a test that would prove to created beings that He exists?
    It has to be done on revelation and faith. That the creature has enough intellectual evidence to take a step of faith in believing that the evidence before him justifies his believing that this so far unknowable God is worth trusting?
    So for example,
    God is not anti science, He created science.
    He is not anti logic, He is logic.
    He is morally trustworthy because He has revealed Himself through the Bible to be morally trustworthy.
    Personally I can see no other explanation.
    I look at the physical universe and I see wonder and design.
    I look at myself and I see imperfections and deliberate bad choices in my life because I want to exercise freedom!

    To try and explain what we see around us through our eyes and microscopes as a developmental cosmological accident requires even more faith.

  7. You want to prove a point because you don’t believe

    Actually I’d suspect that the point he wants to prove is how people use an unprovable belief to justify anything they wish but I’m sure Harri can speak for himself.

  8. Because IMO:

    he wants to prove is how people use an unprovable belief to justify anything they wish

    That’a why.

  9. Agit8ed, on June 5th, 2014 at 11:29 AM Said:

    So why comment?

    Because I can.

    Science, truth and beauty: Hawking’s answers

    What is the value in knowing “Why are we here?”

    The universe is governed by science. But science tells us that we can’t solve the equations, directly in the abstract. We need to use the effective theory of Darwinian natural selection of those societies most likely to survive. We assign them higher value.

    You’ve said there is no reason to invoke God to light the blue touchpaper. Is our existence all down to luck?

    Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in.

    So here we are. What should we do?

    We should seek the greatest value of our action.

    You had a health scare and spent time in hospital in 2009. What, if anything, do you fear about death?

    I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I’m not afraid of death, but I’m in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

    What are the things you find most beautiful in science?

    Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics.”

  10. Agit8ed, on June 5th, 2014 at 11:28 AM Said:

    simeongrimes,
    Human beings created in the image of God i.e. with free will and the ability to choose and procreate, are also hierarchical.
    We want leaders.

    Who is this ‘we’ ?

    We only have one life – make the most of it.

  11. Recent history and stories of all sorts of child abuse, by both males and females who have taken vows of chastity, must surely raise serious doubts as to the value of such a vow in this more liberal day and age.

    Was the original intention of taking the vow to demonstrate the value of morality? – or perhaps as a sign of the sacrifice that servants of the Church were prepared to make in the service of their community? either way it seems to have ben a catastrophic failure on all counts.

    It would appear that deprivation of the physical act of ‘love’, can have the side effect of distorting emotional feelings of compassion and love for their fellow humans, and especially the younger ones…

  12. So for example,
    God is not anti science, He created science.
    He is not anti logic, He is logic.

    And that is purely based on a guess.

    How do you know God created science?

    You could not possibly know that.

  13. Harri,
    Thank you for sharing your situation.
    So I too face an earlier death through asthma leading to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, which means that the airways in my lungs have reached the point where through scarring have lost their elasticity and ability to inflate to maximum capacity.
    Do I deserve such a fate?
    No.
    Does my understanding of God mean that I deserve a fate similar to drowning?
    No.
    Am I angry with God that such a fate I don’t deserve?
    No.
    Do I believe that the God I believe in could heal my lungs?
    Yes, I do.
    Am I angry that it hasn’t happened?
    No, because I remain convinced that there is far more to life than this present experience.
    I remain convinced that Jesus Christ allowing Himself to die on the cross is the best proof that God values me and loves me as an individual.

  14. this story horrified me when I read it both as a father and a catholic. There is a definite lack of information though.

    OK there are 800 children’s bodies in this septic tank, the place was where families dumped there daughters who got pregnant out of wedlock. From what I read the place was packed with a lot of girls whose families tossed them to the curb.

    That is a part of the equation that most are ignoring. Also ok there are 800 babies there that died during a period where vaccinations weren’t a regular treatment against common childhood diseases that killed millions of children. How many babies were born there?

    If the number was 900 than that many deaths raises eyebrows. If the number was 8000 it doesn’t.

    I do condemn the nuns for not giving the children proper burials, because the girls were unwed and thrown out by their families the children weren’t baptized and couldn’t be put in hollowed ground. I find that practice to be bullshit. Each and every death however was recorded by the nuns.

    When this grave was found a couple of years ago it was believed to be deaths from the potato famine. A researcher discovered the truth in the records the nuns kept of each death, which is also how we know how many bodies are in septic tank.

    There is a lot of blame to be spread around here, I think the majority of it belongs to the parents of the girls who threw their daughters out for getting pregnant.

  15. Harri,

    How do you know God created science?

    You could not possibly know that.

    True, of course true.
    But my personal sense of logic tells me that if I am able to observe and draw conclusions from what I observe, then what I logically deduce is that something bigger and unintelligible is at the back of it.
    The only alternative is that it is a cosmic accident that somehow produced order and incredible complexity.
    Which is illogical.

  16. The only alternative is that it is a cosmic accident that somehow produced order and incredible complexity.
    Which is illogical.

    A great deal of all modern day, and in fact age old engineering feats, chemistry and medical science and science in general is founded on ‘accidents’ of other complex equations being sought after.

    My position is quite simple, You have all the right in the world to believe in a superior being, you have every right to need a ‘Leader’, you have every right to have faith and to believe in an acient book. And I have the exact same rights to believe the opposite and oppose them all.

    To me, to believe in something or someone that you have never seen, never heard and based on a guess and faith in a book of God written by man is about as illogical as one could possibly be.

  17. Harri on the matter of faith, science, and proof.

    You are a married man I believe, and if not you had a mother. Did you love your mother?

    I will take the belief that you loved your mother. Now my question to you is can you prove it?

  18. Harri,
    But as a scientist you believe in cause and effect, yet you are content to accept that there is logic in accepting that all you research, and the tools you use to conduct that research has no logical explanation to verify its value.

    I am not asking anyone to throw away their intellect, but rather to accept that there may exist an unexplainable Cause who is rational and intelligent beyond our comprehension,and who is able to create or undo all that we currently observe in the Cosmos.

  19. No, because I remain convinced that there is far more to life than this present experience.

    I sincerely hope that you are right but all empirical evidence suggests that when we shuffle off our mortal coil we return to inky black unconsciousness, akin to Hawking’s broken computer anaology.

    To paraphrase Samuel Clemens:

    I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born

    I think the majority of it belongs to the parents of the girls who threw their daughters out for getting pregnant

    It was seldom that simple Troll. The Magadeline laundry workhouses were the shame of Ireland in terms of both Church & state.

  20. I will take the belief that you loved your mother. Now my question to you is can you prove it?

    I don’t have to prove it?

    And it does not affect my life in any possible way to think that anyone else does not believe it.

  21. Agit8ed, on June 5th, 2014 at 12:54 PM Said:

    Harri,
    But as a scientist you believe in cause and effect, yet you are content to accept that there is logic in accepting that all you research, and the tools you use to conduct that research has no logical explanation to verify its value.

    I am not asking anyone to throw away their intellect, but rather to accept that there may exist an unexplainable Cause who is rational and intelligent beyond our comprehension,and who is able to create or undo all that we currently observe in the Cosmos.

    Fair point Agit, I believe in science, and explainable research, I do not believe in magic.

  22. Harri the question is an explanation of faith.

    Of course you loved your mother, you also can never provide proof of the feeling inside you about her. There is no scientific way to do so. Yet the feelings exist of that you have faith in and know to be true, such is the same with the existence of God.

  23. Troll

    The difference possibly could be, is, I thank my Mother for being born, not God.

  24. Yet the feelings exist of that you have faith in and know to be true, such is the same with the existence of God.

    But Troll, as your above quote ‘existence of God’ that is in the mind, heart and soul I assume, that is your faith, but as for scientific concrete evidence for the existence of God, (any God) there is none.

  25. Paul,
    Despite all the horrors that we humans have done, I remain convinced that God Himself values and loves us as individuals made in His image. He gave us free will. We used that free will to listen to a destructive force, aka Satan, the evil one, and we now have a bias towards selfishness and human omnipotence.
    I think God wanted and wants us to prayerfully commit each new discovery and potential benefit to Him and ask His guidance whether it be to the benefit or detriment of the human race.
    Ultimately though,I believe that there is a realm or dimension beyond this one which God wishes us to enjoy and explore this universe with His blessing.
    That does not negate science or philosophy or logic, but ultimately accepts the overiding supremacy of a loving holy and compassionate God whom we will never fully understand, but enjoy for ever.

  26. as for scientific concrete evidence for the existence of God, (any God) there is none.

    Just as there is no scientific proof of the existence of love. Yet you have it for your mother. Present the scientific proof that you do.

  27. Fair point Agit, I believe in science, and explainable research, I do not believe in magic.

    But you ARE content to accept that all your science (ultimately based on your five physical senses interpreted through your intelligence – a product of a cosmological unintelligible unexplainable accident – is impartially valid?
    You believe in aliens and you base that belief on some mixture of empirical evidence and logical deduction.
    What if your evaluations are only valid as far as their physical/ dimensional limitations allow?
    What if your alien friends told you that your understanding of existence is limited by your space-time physical limitations?

  28. If anything is an example of pure evil this is ; the disposal of unwanted children went on in many ” Christian institutions ” in the UK and the Dominions . In nearly all cases the Church and State colluded in murder , human slavery and the most savage abuse … all in their perverted view of serving God .
    I will bet that , in the UK , many people will tell irregularities which took place in convents and Christian Brothers schools ; I personally know of a convent in St. Helens that has a small lake in the grounds , if it was to be dredged how many small bones would be found .
    Jesus said “Suffer little children to come unto me .” , however He has not done such a good job of looking after these small souls since .

  29. Jesus said “Suffer little children to come unto me .” , however He has not done such a good job of looking after these small souls since .

    I think the whole purpose of the Church was to spread Christ’s message of salvation and His love for humanity on earth until He returns.
    That some of us Christians have done such a bad job of it is for Him to judge and us to try and explain..

  30. I remain convinced that God Himself values and loves us as individuals made in His image

    That’s fair enough Agi, that’s your belief but not mine. While I would like to think about an afterlife in paradise my critical faculties regarding the existance of such things has never been satiated.

    We used that free will to listen to a destructive force, aka Satan, the evil one, and we now have a bias towards selfishness and human omnipotence

    That’s another thing of the many things that I find confusing about the Christian doctrine; it’s my understanding that originally Satan was one of God’s right hand men and rebelled against the authority of God? That would make Satan othing more than a dissenter, albeit it against the hypothetical ultimate power. When did he become the ultimate source of evil? Likewise in Christianity people are supposedly taught to pray for / love the sinner and hate the sin.

    Is reviling the ultimate sinner not contrary to this central Christian doctrine?

    I also can’t understand the logic of an all superior being creating us as an experiment to worship and show our everlasting love and obedience to him. Surely such an omnipotent all knowing powerful being is above such petty egotism?

    This conversation is largely a waste of time as these type of questions were asked long before we arrived on this planet and will still be asked long after we have departed for my part I’d like to say that I actually respect people’s spiritual beliefs and whils I may not nessecerily subscribe to then if it makes their lives more comfortable be my guest.

    Where problems arise is where people take offense at me questioning their spiritual beliefs or believing that because they have a personal belief it puts them on some kind of higher superior platform.

  31. Just as there is no scientific proof of the existence of love

    There is, it’s a result of oxytocin secretion and other nurochemical reactions in the brain.

  32. Just as there is no scientific proof of the existence of love. Yet you have it for your mother. Present the scientific proof that you do.

    Well, I could introduce you to my mother, can you do the same with your God?

  33. There’s a very simple and logical way to answer Troll’s question but Harri isn’t enough so he obfuscates, making it look like Troll has made a good point. He really hasn’t.

  34. Lads, this is going to descend into a shouting match which will detract from an otherwise potentially good thread.

  35. That would make Satan othing more than a dissenter, albeit it against the hypothetical ultimate power.

    Then that would make him a Republican, rather than a Monarchist….;)
    Satan is not the source of all evil, rather in turning away from God (I think he had ideas above his station) he usurped his role.
    Evil is something else. It’s a deliberate turning away from the light into the darkness.
    According to the Bible he has authority over the earth, that’s why he was able to offer Jesus the kingdoms of this world.
    But he is not a god, not everywhere and not omnipotent. But he is more powerful than us humans.
    (Similar to a turbocharged Klingon…)

  36. Careful, Paul. Your ship is sailing mightily close to the seas of Common Sense with comments like the one above. There be dragons! 😉

  37. ps

    Where problems arise is where people take offense at me questioning their spiritual beliefs or believing that because they have a personal belief it puts them on some kind of higher superior platform.

    I don’t mind people questioning my beliefs one bit Paul.

  38. Just as there is no scientific proof of the existence of love

    There is, it’s a result of oxytocin secretion and other neurochemical reactions in the brain.

    No, you’re just describing the chemical changes that take place in the brain when we emotionally react to someone or something that we love.

  39. Satan is not the source of all evil

    Did he not appear in the form of a snake in the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam & Eve thus creating original sin, the source of all sin?

    If Satan is the greatest sinner according to Christian doctrine should we not love him and pray for him?

    But he is not a god, not everywhere and not omnipotent

    I didn’t suggest he was but I did suggest that God was and as such should be above the petty egotism which seems to be his motivation for the human experiment.

    No, you’re just describing the chemical changes that take place in the brain when we emotionally react to someone or something that we love

    I’m not, I’m explainig the nurological reactions which explain why we like and consequently love people although there are other factors to love such as nurturing and kindness

  40. On a lighter note, why in all depictions of Adam and Eve, do they have belly buttons 😉

  41. m not, I’m explainig the nurological reactions which explain why we like and consequently love people although there are other factors to love such as nurturing and kindness

    Isn’t that determinism?.
    Paul I think our attempts to understand God are doomed to fail or to inadequacy anyway.
    I think we only know what God chooses to reveal about Himself. In one sense I agree with what Einstein is reputed to have said, that God is not interested in the minutiae of our daily lives.
    I don’t think He needs our worship or anything else, but if He truly is the source of all wisdom and power and holiness I don’t think one could help but worship Him.
    There are times of personal reflection when the greatness and love of God overwhelms me. I think many Christians experience that.

  42. As regards the serpent in Eden, (somewhere north of Watford), he wasn’t tempting them to do evil, he was tempting them to disobey. Evil is not a self existent thing (I don’t think) it is what happens when a creature deliberately chooses not to consult God, nor to obey His wishes which are always in our best interests. Again I think that evil is actually a distortion of good and by continuing to disobey because we want to exercise our free will, we go deeper into (moral)darkness.
    I honestly don’t know, and I don’t have all the answers and a good bag of questions and paradoxes I’d like God to go through with me one day… 😉

  43. I don’t think He needs our worship or anything else

    The first four commandments, the laws of God, smack of egotism as do scriptures like John 336.

    Isn’t that determinism?

    No, determinism is philosophical I have explained the nurological medical reasons for love.

  44. Perhaps God and the Devil really do exist, but only in peoples minds, and that’s no bad thing, it would explain a lot.

  45. He wasn’t tempting them to do evil

    Let’s not get drawn into a debate on the semantics of evil and sin as it would be long, protracted and ultimately pointless.

  46. Harri, I think that people have struggled for eons to explain the good/bad dark/light and positives/negatives which exist in every human and are inherent in human DNA.

  47. No, determinism is philosophical I have explained the nurological medical reasons for love.

    Doesn’t that imply that chemicals determine our emotional responses, or did you mean this is what happens in our brain when our thought processes lead us to love someone based on their looks and personality?

  48. Both of what you say above are partly true Agi although there are other variables too.

  49. Agit8ed, on June 5th, 2014 at 7:40 PM Said:

    I only query it because there is such a theory as chemical determinism.
    Here’s an interesting article on chemical reactions and free will…

    Agit chemistry and chemicals, are based on atomic structures, isotopes, and compounds, none of those have ‘free will’

  50. Right, so in fact free will is an intangible, like the ghost in the machine?
    There is no evidence to back up the idea that humans are chemically controlled.

  51. Atoms are the basic unit of chemistry. They consist of 3 smaller things:

    Protons – these are positively charged (+)
    Electrons – these are negatively charged (-)
    Neutrons – these have no charge

    The human body is made up of atoms is it not, so I guess they are controlled by chemistry, and so is just about everything else in the universe.

  52. What Harr said. The human body is a carbon based life form comprised of atoms.

    There is no evidence to back up the idea that humans are chemically controlled

    Except of course there is hence nuerological and psychiatric medicine fields.

  53. teleonomy: Information stored within a living thing. Teleonomy involves the concept of something having a design and purpose. Non-teleonomy is “directionlessness,” having no project. The teleonomy of a living thing is somehow stored within its genes. Teleonomy can use energy and matter to produce order and complexity.14

    Where did the teleonomy of living things originate? It is important to note that the teleonomy (the ordering principle, the know-how) does not reside in matter itself. Matter, itself, is not creative. Dr. Wilder-Smith:

    “The pure chemistry of a cell is not enough to explain the working of a cell, although the workings are chemical. The chemical workings of a cell are controlled by information which does not reside in the atoms and molecules.”15

    http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-thermodynamics.html

    Whilst we have varying degrees of understanding none of us has the complete answers. I think whatever the final explanation I see no way that out of chaos comes order, out of matter and energy and time comes complexity..
    I still believe that there has to be a creative mind behind it all…

  54. Agit

    As you might recall, almost 17 years ago, a tragic ‘Suffer little children’ event changed my life forever, and from that I can fully understand as to just why some folk do turn to God, Jesus, and religion for comfort. I must admit to not being one of those, but, there were times of anger, sadness, self-pity even, when the thought of ‘If there really is a God, then why?’

  55. 796 children died and were buried in a mass grave…between 1925 and 1961

    Am I the only one who finds that a high mortality rate? That’s an average of just under two deaths every month for 36 years.

  56. Where did the teleonomy of living things originate?

    Agi, why do things have to originate from God?

    f God ‘just is’ why can’t the universe & life etc just be?

    Why does there have to be a ‘creative mind’ behind it?

  57. If God ‘just is’ why can’t the universe & life etc just be?

    Why does there have to be a ‘creative mind’ behind it?
    I suppose it depends on your sense of wonder. Scientists don’t accept that ‘things just are’ they try to make a comprehensive theory of how it all works, where we all came from and what if any purpose there is to our being.
    If you are happy to just accept life is as it is that of course is fine, but it’s not true is it?
    Like me you make observations and judgements based on what you believe to be right and true, as in your politics, as in your love for your wife and children. You don’t just ‘accept’ those things, you work on them.

  58. Looking at it logically, if religion, the Bible and God give you a purpose in life then it has served it’s purpose, but the part I struggle with is the devout following which leads intelligent human beings to live there lives according to a 2000 year old book written by another human.

    Personaly I do not feel the requirement to follow the rules of a book to tell me what is right and what is wrong. You do not have to be religious to be a good person.

  59. Like me you make observations and judgements based on what you believe to be right and true, as in your politics, as in your love for your wife and children. You don’t just ‘accept’ those things, you work on them

    That’s because those judgements are based on empirical and tangeible experiences they aren’t something based on ‘faith’

  60. Personaly I do not feel the requirement to follow the rules of a book to tell me what is right and what is wrong. You do not have to be religious to be a good person

    I strive to learn by my mistakes and to improve nyself as a human being every day. I think most do.

  61. When you have a religion (or philosophy, dear Marxists) that no one can question without being condemned themselves, supported by the state and lets admit the majority of the community, you get this type of horror.

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