104 3 mins 7 yrs

………………….until it has been denied; officially.

That quotation, care of an Irish journalist named Claud Cockburn, says a great deal about the person, and the television station she worked for over five years which I write about today. The t.v. station is Russia Today, and the reporter’s name was Sara Firth. She resigned from her work as a tv reporter because she states she was disgusted at having to push ‘slanted’ reports over the massacre of innocents who flew, unknowing of their fate, on Malaysian Airways MH17.

She stated she resigned in disgust because said reports being run by the station gave her a ‘kick in the stomach” and ‘disrespected the facts’, prompting her to hand in her notice. She  said it was the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ after growing increasingly frustrated during her five years as an employee.

Now apart from the fact that Russia Today is, and always has been, a totally-paid-up  member of the President Putin fan club, bought by the Kremlin; we must examine this female reporter’s beliefs and statements, both from the present and from the past. If, as she states, just about all news stories and commentary was slanted to place a Kremlin- and Putin-friendly viewpoint across the news-screens of the world, how is it that it took her five long years before she ‘saw the light’, and resigned?

Did this articulate and well-educated woman just have a sudden ‘Damascene Conversion’ over one lie too much, after speaking the Kremlin’s propaganda and slush for five years? She states that she was ‘increasingly frustrated’ and Firth also claimed the news organization has promoted Russian propaganda for years. The network uses young, obedient reporters for big, controversial stories — the less-experienced journalists are more likely to stay on message, she said, “The second you start to question or report honestly then you’re a problem.” Still, she respects many of her co-workers. She said many of them tell the truth, and have tried to fight the system while keeping their jobs on the inside.

Or did she finally decide that she should never have commenced working for a Putin- and Kremlin-backed t.v. station which has been routinely laughed at for the ludicrous manner in which it shamelessly followed the Russian-line, no matter what the actual facts might dictate?

 

That last query, of course, might well be aimed at another broadcaster which we are all, unfortunately, well-acquainted with? Answers on a used postcard, please.

 

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104 thoughts on “Never believe anything………..

  1. I would think that those who work for RT, which is basically a parody of what a news channel should be, come from two categories

    a) those who were never capable of getting a job anywhere else
    or
    b) those who are well past their sell by date ( Hi, Larry King )

    That’s it.

  2. Virtually the entire Russian media is in Putin’s pocket and has been spouting the party line since the plane crashed. Which is that as this benefits the fascist Ukranian junta, they must have done it, and the sober, peace-loving Russian separatists have been framed.

  3. Of course a significant number of journalists have been murdered in Putin’s Russia.

    Putin is still a KGB criminal at heart

  4. Virtually the entire Russian media is in Putin’s pocket and has been spouting the party line since the plane crashed.

    As opposed to the fearless, independentm free-thinking Western media, which knew immediately that the “TERRORIST PUTIN” supplied “PUTIN’S MISSILE”, and so PUTIN MURDERED THE PASSENGERS”, leading to the AUSCHWITZ DEATH TRAIN”.

    They’ve acted hand-in-glove with the war party in London and Washington, desperate to print any blatant propaganda as long as it makes conflict with Russia more palatable. They’ve printed a catalogue of lies and photos and videos put out by the gangster Kiev junta which the Western war parties installed, even after they’ve been debunked by the million miles-per-hour internet.

    But today, it was disclosed that US Intelligence has “NO EVIDENCE” linking Moscow to the crash. No evidence whatsoever, which is what we’ve been waiting to see. While Cameron and Obama and Kerry and McCain and the rest of the warlords made the most stupid and dangerous accusations, they did so without any evidence to do so.

    Oh, but RT is biased. Big deal!

    And let’s be clear on something else. In lieu of actual “FACTS”, the spooks have made up the line that “Russia ‘created conditions’ for the plane disaster”.

    This is absolute drivel. The conditions were created by the aggressors in London and Washington and Brussels, who sought to bring about Cameron’s ambition to push the EU to the Urals.

    Peter Hitchens, a genuinely independent journalist, that rare thing now, had it exactly right when he laid the blame on the real aggressors for a war which is killing hundreds and hundreds of civilians, most at the hands of the Kiev gangsters without the Western press taking any notice:

    … those who began the current war in Ukraine – the direct cause of the frightful murder of so many innocents on Flight MH17 on Thursday – really have no excuse. There is no doubt about who they were. In any war, the aggressor is the one who makes the first move into neutral or disputed territory.

    And that aggressor was the European Union, which rivals China as the world’s most expansionist power, swallowing countries the way performing seals swallow fish (16 gulped down since 1995).

    Ignoring repeated and increasingly urgent warnings from Moscow, the EU – backed by the USA – sought to bring Ukraine into its orbit. It did so through violence and illegality, an armed mob and the overthrow of an elected president.

    We are being governed by wicked, war-loving liars, who are reported on by loyal, lying, stenographers. Who cares if some anonymous autocutie walks out of RT? There are more important things going on.

  5. It is beyond doubt that the Russian government controls RT and much of the Russian media whilst in the US the owners of the media control the government. But on the matter of MH370, Putin’s position becomes reasonable as soon as one reads the headlines from the linked story. Here they are:

    1. Journalist quits Putin-backed English language TV channel in protest at ‘disrespect of facts’ after it blames Ukrainian government for MH17 crash. Sara Firth handed in her resignation hours after the plane was shot down.

    2. Said she felt a ‘kick in the stomach’ when she watched the coverage

    3. Claims Russia Today’s style guide is to ‘always blame the Ukraine’

    4. Majority of news outlets have said pro-Russian separatists were responsible

    Reading no. 1 carefully, it says that Sara Firth handed in her notice hours after the plane was shot down in protest at disrespect of the facts. But when were these ‘facts’ established? The facts are yet to be established – that’s what flight data recorders and examination of wreckage do.

    On no.2 I have no idea how she felt. Perhaps when she saw that two bottles of Scotch whisky had survived unbroken and unlooted (yes – UNLOOTED when there were ‘Putin’s drunken looters all over the plane’) and label face-up, she may have felt a bit queasy.

    No.3 – blame the Ukraine. If Russia is being blamed and facts are not established, then of course Russia would use its media to blame the other party.

    And now no.4. The majority of news outlets are a herd whose reports follow the same single source. As we have seen from the front pages of British newspapers, the narrative is the same – ‘Putin murdered my son/daughter/goldfish/song’, ‘Putin’s terrorists’ etc. The majority of media outlets are staffed by airheads every bit as stupid as those who present the news on RT. They know nothing, and the facts are not established – but the facts are being established right now by people who don’t work for mass media.

  6. There is a large western press that is often extremely critical of western governments. This blog is actually a small part of that press. We are all pretty much among the critics.

    The freedom of the press such as it exists in all of our countries does not exist in Russia. A free press had started to emerge, but it has been crushed by the current government.

  7. “Putin is still a KGB criminal at heart”

    And our lot are different? – What our lot lack in cupidity they make up for it with stupidity!

    Everything that has been said re RT, applies to our media, both written and broadcast. Our ‘leaders’ no longer speak for a unified nation, hence their inability to provide any sort of leadership.

  8. Phantom,

    The problem is that the so-called ‘freedom of the press’ allows our potential enemies to establish a strong and viable ‘fifth column’. They mistake our tolerance as a weakness, – which it is, – and they are very quick to use it to their advantage.

  9. Ernest

    I ain’t buying that.

    You would know the British press a lot better than I, but I have repeatedly seen major US papers make the lives of US presidents and other powerful people here miserable with fact based reporting.

    That doesn’t happen in Russia.

  10. They will not report that the missile that apparently shot down the plane was from a sophisticated surface-to-air missile system that requires a good deal of training that the separatists do not have.

    Ron Paul is apparently in the know as per the nature of technical training Russia gives to the seps in Ukraine

    Boy he knows everything

  11. Phantom,

    ” I have repeatedly seen major US papers make the lives of US presidents and other powerful people here miserable “

    In the past maybe, nowadays criticism, such as it is, is reduced to nit-picking squabbling with nothing but party politics in mind.

    Certainly not since Nixon has the press had much influence on ‘governance’, and possibly even longer since even a modest degree of leadership been shown.

    That the current POTUS has demonstrated a new, and previously unacceptable low in intellect, integrity and a poor general representation of a truly ‘United States’, seems to have escaped your notice. His demonstration of loyalty seems to lay elsewhere.

  12. That only makes sense in a right wing talk radio / ATW world.

    The press made Clinton’s life miserable and they savaged GW Bush.

    Obama has not been similarly abused, and maybe he should have been, but to say that the press hasn’t been hard on presidents since the days of Tricky Dick is manifestly untrue.

  13. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-present-intelligence-data-plane-crash-0

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for “creating the conditions” that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

    Given that the US terrorist supply network funds ISIS, al-qaeda, Mexican drug gangs, Israel etc. can we take the above as a principle i.e. culpable by ‘creation of conditions’?

    Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios — such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane — are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.

    That is a bare-faced lie. Russia has released satellite images of Ukrainian AA systems in the vicinity and has asked the US to release its images as corroboration.

    Phantom writes:

    …but I have repeatedly seen major US papers make the lives of US presidents and other powerful people here miserable with fact based reporting

    Go on then – provide some back-up.

  14. But today, it was disclosed that US Intelligence has “NO EVIDENCE” linking Moscow to the crash.

    That’s not what they said, once again you are taking Russian spin and presenting it as the neutral truth. A mistake you will keep making if you rely on propaganda outlets for an interpretation of the facts.

    What the USA said is summed up here.

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for “creating the conditions” that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

    The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

    The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week’s air disaster, which killed 298 people.

    The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.

    But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

    In terms of who fired the missile, “we don’t know a name, we don’t know a rank and we’re not even 100 percent sure of a nationality,” one official said, adding at another point, “There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here.”

    White House deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said the U.S. was still working to determine whether the missile launch had a “direct link” to Russia, including whether there were Russians on the ground during the attack and the degree to which Russians may have trained the separatists to launch such a strike.

    In other words the Americans have claimed that there is a great deal of evidence linking the attack to Russian separatists and evidence that Russia is backing them but that does not extend to identifying the actual people who fired the rocket. Which is pretty much what was believed anyway.

    To interpret that as saying “The Americans have admitted there’s no evidence” is just nonsense.

  15. Allan

    If you have no idea where the US press gave Clinton and GW Bush a hard time, I can’t help you.

  16. Ross –

    You’re talking nonsense.

    Since the hour of the crash, Western politicians and media have directly linked Putin to it. They have blamed him personally. Now let me quote back to you your link:

    … the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

    […]

    But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia […]

    In terms of who fired the missile, “we don’t know a name, we don’t know a rank and we’re not even 100 percent sure of a nationality,” one official said, adding at another point, “There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here.”

    They have nothing, not a thing to pin on Putin. The mega-billion US Intelligence strutcure hasn’t come up with one piece of tangible evidence. It’s so bare the State Department had cite twitter and youtube videos, most of which have long been debunked.

    The neocons were asked to put up and they came up with nothing.

    This is Syria all over again, which was a pack of lies. This is Iraq again, which was a pack of lies. Time and time again the power elites are desperate to drag us into ruinous wars and you always fall for it.

    How many times will you believe their lies? How ioften will you believe obvious liars?

  17. Phantom –

    When did any Washington court stenographer describe GWB for what he is – a terroristic warlord who should have been put down?

    Opposing policies isn’t “opposition”. They are all loyal to Washington in the end.

  18. ” neo cons ” – The same curse words. Like a few years ago when the Code Pinks used Halliburton as a curse word.

    You have nothing linking Putin to the seps? They’re not allied? Is Putin aware that these groups exist?

  19. GWB was a twice eleced president who was severely criticized.

    As was Clinton. As was Reagan. As was Carter. Etc.

    As Putin has not been.

  20. //To interpret that as saying “The Americans have admitted there’s no evidence” is just nonsense.//

    The report says: “The intelligence officials [noted that] the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.,,
    the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch.”

    That’s not far from Allan’s interpretation at all.

    For what it’s worth, those people quoted in the report sound to my ears more like voicing US reluctance to point the finger out of fear of having to act on it, or being called out for not acting on it. If the US declared it was the Russians and still did nothing about it, it would set a precedent and restrict US options – in both directions – in similar cases in the future.

    I think the important thing here is that – like we hear about Israel every day now – they were not trying to kill the civilians. Shooting down the plane was almost certainly an accident, in contrast to cases in the past when civilian airliners were deliberately shot down by Russia and Israel etc.

  21. hey have nothing, not a thing to pin on Putin.

    No, they’ve provided evidence that it was shot down by the rebels and that Russia has been arming them.

    This is Syria all over again

    What you mean that there was a dispute over what happened with Russia claiming one version and the West claiming another? And Russia being found out to be completely wrong? You’ve mentioned Syria before but you have obviously not looked at the evidence if you think it vindicates your position.

    Have a look at the report into the investigation here and you will see confirmation that Sarin gas was fired using Syrian regime controlled weapons, from regime controlled territory.

    Being wrong at the time is one thing, but the fact that you are now claiming this as vindication months after you were shown to be wrong suggests that you haven’t looked at the facts at all.

    Time and time again the power elites are desperate to drag us into ruinous wars and you always fall for it.

    The “power elites” can’t even bring themselves to impose meaningful sanctions on Russia, the idea that they are angling for war is risible. The one man who has actually started a war is the one person who seems to be immune from accusations of being a war monger.

  22. I’ve just watched a video about the shooting down of KAL 007 (not on a spy mission, the number is pure coincidence) near Sakhalin in 1983. It shows how the US took recordings of the telecoms between the pilot who fired the missile and Russian fighter control. It then explains how the American Ambassador to the UN revealed that the Russian pilot had given no warning to KAL 007 and massacred the passengers – then it explained how the Americans falsified the recordings through careful omission of the Russian pilot’s warning shots, efforts to communicate, efforts to warn the KAL pilot etc. – at 12.13.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo6ixsikDM4

    This doesn’t show the Russians for humanitarians – it shows the US government as composed of liars.

  23. Noel- would anyone have expected “direct evidence” of Russian soldiers firing the missile? Could they recognise individual Russian troops firing it from satellite imagery, or without identifying the actual troops or intercepting a direct order that would seem impossible.

  24. Allan

    If you have no idea where the US press gave Clinton and GW Bush a hard time, I can’t help you.

    I know that Clinton had a bit of a hard time over the Lewinsky matter, but he was getting out of line and needed a warning shot – administered by a nice jewish girl who has since kept her mouth shut about it all.

    The rest was pure theatre for the masses – there were no real worries for Clinton or GWB otherwise you would have provided evidence.

    Here is a tabloid headline – Putin’s missile – by The Sun, one of the UK’s high-brow newspapers, and of the level which informs and motivates Ross as we see on this thread:

    http://zik.ua/ua/news/2014/07/18/brytanska_gazeta_the_sun_vyyshla_z_zagolovkom_pro_tragediyu_boingu__putins_missile_506925

  25. //would anyone have expected “direct evidence” of Russian soldiers firing the missile?//

    What they said was that they had no direct evidence that the missile came from Russia, not no direct evidence that Russian soldiers fired it.

    Direct evidence could be, for example, pictures of Russian missiles with such capability in the separatists’ hands near the site, reports from their agents among the separatists, tell-tale signs on parts of the plane wreckage that show the missile was of Russian manufacture etc.

  26. The great thing for Allan insisting that the Western press is no difference between the Western press and the Russian press, and that all information is controlled by the government/corporations/Jews is that it means he doesn’t have to hurt his head by reading stuff about the subjects he wants to have strong opinions on.

    I’m willing to bet that he hasn’t read a single book about Russia within the last 20 years and probably tells himself that not reading the Moscow correspondents of Western newspapers makes him better informed.

    But reading serious material doubtless takes a long time and makes his head hurt.

  27. It’s very significant that in the last few hours the two black boxes have arrived at Farnborough for inspection.
    Why have they not gone to Kiev, or Moscow, or the USA?

    What this suggests to me is that someone is acting as ‘honest broker’ here, and as Russia is the BIG player in the region it looks like a Putin initiative.

  28. Noel- the rebels have admitted that have the BUK missile system and the experts seem to all agree now that the plane shows signs of missile damage.

  29. Well, there was an American satellite directly overhead and the Russians have requested that the satellite photos be released for collaborative investigation and esatblishment of facts and culpability. For some reason, neither these satellite images nor the images from Schiphol of passengers boarding MH17 are being released.

    Guilt By Insinuation — Paul Craig Roberts

    The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center.

    The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area. The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data captured by the satellite.

    Yesterday (July 20) the US Secretary of State, John Kerry confirmed that pro-Russian separatists were involved in the downing of the Malaysian airliner and said that it was “pretty clear” that Russia was involved. Here are Kerry’s words: “It’s pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point and time, so it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.”

    Why doesn’t Washington release its photos from its satellite?

    Meanwhile, the plane-spotters are analysing images of the wreckage of MH17. They are claiming that it is MH370 based on details of the porthole arrangements. Details matter and plane-spotters are obsessives about detail.

  30. Their case is in tatters but the war party need not despair.

    The crony Ukrainian firm which put Joe Biden’s son on the board is now paying more lobbyists in Washington.

    The loot will flow into more pockets, the lies will continue from the DC regime, from Congress and from lying journalists as they try to achieve direct conflict with Russia.

  31. Can we expect the remains of the aircraft to be reconstructed for an examination in the way of Pan Am 103 and TWA 800 (but not flight 93, which was swallowed by a Pennsylvanian field and disappeared forever – the majority here consider that to be conclusive)? After all, that’s what air crash investigation requires.

  32. //the lies will continue from the DC regime, from Congress and from lying journalists as they try to achieve direct conflict with Russia.//

    The US govt doesn’t want conflict with Russia; it would like to keep Russia contained, of course, but certainly doesnt want a war.

  33. Ross and Phantom

    Good points, but you are wasting your time. Putin has truth and justice on his side and the wicked alliance of the EU and the Great Satan has set out to start WW3 and has killed 300 air passengers to do so. If Allan, Pete Moore and Bernard and Peter Hitchens say so then it must be true. Why waste time arguing?

  34. Can you believe that Cameron has just said yes I know we’ve got an arms & equipment deal with Russia, but it’s not for military use!!
    I swear the guy is the biggest fool & hypocrite we’ve ever had to run this country.

  35. And watching more on KAL 007, it is revealed that 15 days after the Soviets shot down KAL 007 the Americans destroyed all radar records relating to USAF tracking of that mission – at 9.52 – in order to stymie any subsequent inquiry. This is how the US government agencies behave when they are up to no good:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rvrY-rPwbY

    One must wonder about why the US makes such effort to initiate conflict between its newly-installed puppet regime in Ukraine and the country to which Ukraine has the closest economic and ethnic links, especially as it really is outside the US’s geographical proximity.

  36. The campaign is having the desired effects on the dupe majority, and not just at ATW:

    CNN poll: Favorable views of Russia drop following Malaysian airliner crash

    Washington (CNN) – Most Americans say Russia is directly or indirectly responsible for the downing of a Malaysia Airlines jetliner over eastern Ukraine, and unfavorable opinions of Russia have surged, according to a new national poll.

    According to the poll, just 19% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Russia, down from 41% in February. Fifty-seven percent of the public saw Russia in a positive way in a 2011 CNN/ORC survey.

    Seventy-eight percent of those questioned say they have an unfavorable opinion of Russia, a surge of 23 percentage points since February. Only 40% of Americans in the 2011 CNN poll had a negative view of Russia.

    Now, in order to persuade a general public that another country is an enemy in need of some punishment, that other country must be shown to be bad. Most drug-addled Americans get their opinions from the controlled MSM so there is no reason why the lies can’t work. There is no way that the US satellite data will ever be released.

  37. It was a controlled demolition, just like 7 WTC, the other WTC buildings, and the terminal at Paris airport.

    You need 3D glasses and a fifth of Scotch straight up to see the patterns.

  38. The press has gone lighter on Obama than Bush, but there is still plenty of criticism of Obama in the press. As a whole the Press is free in the states. The fact is that it runs about 70-30 that the members of the press just happen to agree with the current Presidents view leading to a less critical view in the majority.

    If they didn’t agree with him he would be pillared just as hard as Bush or Reagan. The press in the US is still free. The way it reports or doesn’t report however is still their free choice.

    Here is more good stuff Ole Vlad is up to but this of course has nothing to do with the trouble in Ukraine

    http://news.yahoo.com/russia-starts-reinforcing-naval-fleet-crimea-141108574.html

  39. It’s not difficult to see why Merkel is not towing the Washington line:
    Earlier this month a German intelligence officer was arrested for spying for Moscow, but under “questioning” he admitted to being in the pay of the US. Other ‘moles’ are now being unearthed, and the most senior CIA station chief has been told to leave the country. (All names have been withheld)

    Someone, or some group in the US administration is playing a very high-stakes game right now, with Russia being the latest target.

    Noel says that the US doesn’t want a war, and that is undoubtedly true, but there are elements working in the State Department who are real keen for it.

  40. No one at any level in the US or NATO wants any military confrontation with Russia.

    No one.

    The ” cure ” would be a billion times worse than the disease.

    For us, for Russia, for Ukraine, and everyone else.

  41. We spy to protect ourselves, just as every nation on earth does. We just have better tech to do it with at the moment.

    As for wanting War the US wants war with no one, the state department has never wanted war if anything it has over it’s history done anything to the point of betraying the US to prevent us from having an advantage in war. It was started by a communist for that purpose.

    You mistake our reaction to aggression for aggression.

  42. Good points, but you are wasting your time.

    It’s good practice. If Russia thinks that it’s worth their time and money organising disinformation then it might be worth countering the obviously false assertions.

    If you read the comment sections of major newspapers and popular web forums it is very obvious that the Kremlin has a crude spamming campaign. You’ll see dozens of separate commentators with stilted English all making whatever the propaganda point of the day is.

    For example Pete’s claim that the Americans “admitted they have no evidence” was the meme of the day yesterday and the Putinbots duly spammed the comment threads of the Telegraph, Guardian, Mail etc even after it had been debunked 1000 times. This happens daily. I’m already familiar with all of Allan’s claims about MH17- for example his assertion that the flight was put on an unusual course at the last minute by Ukrainian authorities- before he makes them because they are part of an organised campaign to muddy the waters.

    Obviously Pete & Allan aren’t in the pay of the Kremlin, but they get their information from groups that have unhealthy links to the Kremlin- Russia has long supported the paranoid far right that Allan enjoys as well as the isolationist quasi-libertarian movement from whom I believe Pete gets his information.

    So spending a few minutes countering the claims seems reasonable enough.

  43. I’m already familiar with all of Allan’s claims about MH17- for example his assertion that the flight was put on an unusual course at the last minute by Ukrainian authorities- before he makes them because they are part of an organised campaign to muddy the waters.

    Ross – It was no mere assertion. I put up the links to the route-tracing site which showed the routes taken by MH 17 and the preceding planes from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. If you had bothered to look, you would have seen. Noel looked: Noel saw: Noel can confirm. Once again, for clarification – the flight path of MH17 was about 150 miles further north of those of the same flight, and this took MH17 directly over the conflict zone.

  44. So what?

    Very many flights went over what was an approved air corridor in past weeks.

    Are you trying to blame the air traffic controller in some way? What is your point? Os there ever any point other than dark insinuation?

  45. Flight MH17 was following right route, says Malaysian minister

    The Malaysians must be in on it too:

    “European airlines also use the same route and traverse the same airspace. In the hours before the incident, a number of other passenger aircraft from different carriers used the same route,” Liow told a press conference. He said there had been “no last-minute instructions” given to the pilots to change the route.

    This is from last Friday, so the information has been in the public domain for at least 6 days, yet still all over the internet the Putinbots and their friends continue to assert otherwise.

  46. The Allans of this world are sure that Dick Cheney did it, and will continue to manufacture Truther theory to prove the tale.

  47. Let me clarify what Allan said.
    Allan at the time linked to a flight-tracker site. It’s an excellent site that allows the user to track any commercial flight in the air at the time or the recent past, based on data on position and course sent automatically by the plane.

    The link was to two specific flights – one was MH17 and the other was another flight of the same intended route from a day or two previously.

    One conspicuous difference was:
    while the earlier flight that reached its destination flew, after moving a bit around A’dam, in a straight course of around 120 degrees in a south-easterly direction more or less all the way to Kuala Lumpur.

    The MH17 flight at first followed the same path as the former, but then, over central Poland, it changed course from around 120 to about 80 degrees, i.e. it turned towards the north east and continued on this new course for a short time before turning back to the initial SE course. This short change meant the new flight path was running parallel and some distance to the north of what it would have been had the plane not made the adjustment. Whereas the initial course, and that of the plane from the previous day, would have brought MH17, in the critical area, over the NE tip of the Sea of Azov, well away from the conflict zone, the new course made it cross Ukr/Russian frontier further to the north, which is where the firing was going on.

    I am not saying there was some sinister reason for the change of course over Poland or that it was very unusual; I don’t know enough about air traffic to judge the various reasons planes change course (although I believe weather was stable in that part of Europe at the time). I am only saying the sudden change of course was in noticeable contrast to the consistent SE courses of previous planes and that without this change the plane would almost certainly not have been shot down.

    Allan put up another link a few days later, which again showed the same flight path, with the same course change, of MH17, but this time the other reference course of a similar flight was at UKR/Russ at the same point as MH17 was when it was shot down, and the route was then corrected northward somewhere over New Delhi (although it didn’t land at Delhi, they were all direct flights)

    I’m sure the links are still there and can be checked.

  48. Phantom, on July 24th, 2014 at 11:21 AM Said:

    The Allans of this world are sure that Dick Cheney did it

    Allan, on this site has never stated Dick Cheney did anything, but was involved in 9/11.

    Even Dick Cheney is not that much of a bastard to get involved in the deaths of yet more innocents.

  49. Phantom

    I did reply to your request for routes, etc: on the journey, spent ages typing it all out, with recommendations on hotels and things to look out for, and wot-not.

    I then pressed the wrong key, lost the lot .. and thought, bugger it 😉

  50. //I am not saying there was some sinister reason//

    I am also not saying the flight paths shown on the site had not been tampered with; the site itself, however, is very much a respectable technical site for flight buffs.

  51. Apparently the separatists have just confirmed that they shot down the airliner. Probably knew there was no point denying it further after the black box was handed over yesterday.

  52. If that is true, then it is recommended that the Putin groupies and Truthers here go into private session in order to get their stories straight.

  53. Phantom, apparently one of the separatists spilt the beans in an interview in the Italian daily Corriere della Sera yesterday. It’s only an interview but it sounds credible enough.

  54. Harri so how was Dick Cheney involved in 9/11?

    come on take a big hit on that pipe and spin us your tale of drug induced delusion.

  55. Phantom you know if the interview that Noel links to is verified the Putin groupies will come up with some tale that the CIA or the Mossad hijacked the separatists command structure and gave them false orders so the US can move in and hijack the pipeline.

  56. Troll

    It is totaly pointless trying to discuss or debate any subject with you.

    My time on ATW, has like many others, learned that lesson

    Troll, not a hard task that is for sure, but you are a dupe of the highest order I have ever come across, .. and you have been duped.

  57. It must be that time of day.

    When Trolls medication is at it’s optimum performance scale.

  58. Harri so how was Dick Cheney involved in 9/11?

    Here it is, as of 39.55

    Now Troll – you asked the question and I’m providing the answer. Will you confirm that you have looked at the answer given that you asked the question presumably to get the answer?

  59. Now Troll – you asked the question and I’m providing the answer. Will you confirm that you have looked at the answer given that you asked the question presumably to get the answer?

    Not possible.

    He is a dupe.

  60. Yes I am unreasonable when it comes to faery tales relayed by kooks.

    In your time on ATW you have shown yourself to be a kook Harri. Yes I am obnoxious and rude, but I’m not the one who has been duped. I don’t believe you’ve been duped either. I just think that you have no connection with reality. Which

  61. Hey Allan did you see the disclaimer on the very first frame of the film you link to?

    “This film represents solely the views of the author”

    in other words it’s a Faery Tale pieced together for the insane. A category that both you and Harri fall into.

  62. Ross –

    For example Pete’s claim that the Americans “admitted they have no evidence” was the meme of the day yesterday and the Putinbots duly spammed the comment threads of the Telegraph, Guardian, Mail etc even after it had been debunked 1000 times.

    It was the news of the day yesterday, after a week of explicit accusations against Putin, on the back of which Putin and Russia were demonised. What would the Putinbots comment on if it wasn’t in the news?

    Yes, the Russian spammers obviously exist (though some are probably just Russians who read the Western news sites). Their English often gives them away, but at least they come out only when the news concerns Moscow.

    More insidious and ever-present are home-grown government shills. We usually can’t fish them out because (as with Phantom) their English is native. They work for government departments, media outfits and intelligence agencies and they’re always there.

    If you’re going to accuse Russians of spamming comment sections then you have to be honest and concede that State trolls do the same, always.

  63. Is one a ” state troll ” if they don’t believe that Dick Cheney in his flying saucer is personally responsible for every bad thing that has happened in the past 15 years, including Harri’s parking ticket from last Tuesday?

  64. Noel Cunningham –

    Phantom, apparently one of the separatists spilt the beans in an interview in the Italian daily Corriere della Sera yesterday. It’s only an interview but it sounds credible enough.

    Which he later denied, saying that he has a recording of the interview with AP and that he’ll put it out if they don’t retract. It doesn’t matter, we know that the seperatists took a coup-government facility in June and captured some BUK batteries then.

  65. Phantom –

    You’re an adult. Let’s debate honestly and on that level, shall we?

  66. Phantom, on July 24th, 2014 at 7:08 PM Said:

    Is one a ” state troll ” if they don’t believe that Dick Cheney in his flying saucer is personally responsible for every bad thing that has happened in the past 15 years, including Harri’s parking ticket from last Tuesday?

    No strawman argument there then 🙂

  67. Raw nerve .. direct hit 😉

    More insidious and ever-present are home-grown government shills. We usually can’t fish them out because (as with Phantom) their English is native. They work for government departments, media outfits and intelligence agencies and they’re always there.

    Cheney’s ongoing Forget Everything I Ever Told You Tour is historical revisionism at its most despicable.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/when-will-dick-cheneys-to_b_210627.html

  68. Cheney and his perhaps junior partner GW Bush made many errors – and GWB should never have been considered for any executive position – but neither are the boogey men that the Truthers among us think they are.

  69. Phantom, on July 24th, 2014 at 8:10 PM Said:

    Cheney and his perhaps junior partner GW Bush made many errors – and GWB should never have been considered for any executive position – but neither are the boogey men that the Truthers among us think they are.

    Don’t forget the other partner in crime, Rumsfeld.

  70. Phantom, on July 24th, 2014 at 8:19 PM Said:

    Harri

    Have you arrived at the destination?

    Only the first one 😉

    I did reply to your ‘what route did you take’

    I spent some considerable amount of time, giving routes, roads, EU toll roads prices ;-(

    Hotels, and my favourite German town ‘Wurzburg’

    Then hit the wrong button, deleted the lot and thought .. oh bugger it.

  71. Phantom, on July 24th, 2014 at 8:18 PM Said:

    Rumsfeld is a good man who made some errors.

    He also made a fortune spreading the fear about ‘Bird-flu’

    I wonder why.

    I think most already know.

  72. Phantom, on July 24th, 2014 at 8:38 PM Said:

    Have some good German beer and wurst for me

    Cheers.

  73. //my favourite German town ‘Wurzburg’//

    It’s a fine town; I’ve only been there in summer and I remember the wonderful beer and, as it’s a university town, the thousands of young nubile women in their pretty dresses. They seem to come out with the sun.

  74. Noel

    You must have walked over the bridge of saints then.

    Did you visit the castle, or the Chinese moored just down from the bridge? wonderful service and food.

  75. The Troll, on July 24th, 2014 at 4:50 PM Said:

    Hey Allan did you see the disclaimer on the very first frame of the film you link to?

    Troll – you opened the first frame which is a nice baby-step but did you look at the evidence which I presented in response to your question? I assumed that your question was put with the intention of getting an answer. You asked:

    how was Dick Cheney involved in 9/11?

    and there is the answer, at 39.55 onwards

    As for the Russian seperatists possibly shooting down the airline, if Putin takes the rap for it on the basis that (if) Russia provided the weapons (these weapons have serial numbers and are traceable to the owner) then can that be confirmed as a principle in international law?

  76. First off the question this time was not put to you. Second you believe in a faery tale world where the US Government is the Great Satan you hate Jews. You are an Islamic Terrorist in your head.

    I see you as no different than any Nazi or Islamist, and those on this site that agree with you are the same.

    You support Terror, you hate the US, and you hate Jews. Anyone in the world that is against the British Government, The American Government, and the Israeli Government you root for, and defend.

    As far as I am concerned you are the enemy.

    This site over the past 4 years has become infested with those that that hate the West love Communists and terrorists. You’ll can rail against me all you want. I will not subscribe to your evil thinking and the blackness that fills your hearts and minds.

    None of you are crazy, or stupid you are willingly complicit and eagerly support the enemies of humanity.

  77. First off the question this time was not put to you

    OK – why not put the question to me? I’ll answer it.

  78. Allan

    You are trying to get cutesy pie, but no cigar.

    Russia has first seized the territory of a neighbor that had done it no harm, and it has fomented trouble in that other country, and has given exceptionally dangerous weapons to untrained or barely trained Ukrainian saboteurs and traitors, with disastrous results.

  79. I am not interested in asking you Allan, I am not interested in ANYTHING you have to say.

    You support Terror, you hate the US, and you hate Jews. Anyone in the world that is against the British Government, The American Government, and the Israeli Government you root for, and defend. You live in a fantasy world that accepts no version but your own, and you are a person filled with hate.

    so no I wouldn’t ask you the time of day.

  80. The people of a territory which had formerly been part of Russia seceded and re-joined Russia by their own expression – and I await the return of Texas to Mexico.

    As for the AA-missile systems, this report in Deutsche Wirtschafts Nachrichten states that the US is refusing to release its satellite data because the images show a Ukrainian battery as responsible for the shoot-down:

    http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2014/07/22/abschuss-mh17-usa-zoegern-mit-veroeffentlichung-von-satelliten-bildern/

    The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

    So why are the satellite images not being released the Russians request? The US-military is not denying that its satellite was overhead but my posts on KAL 007 give little cause that a mendacious entity will allow any damning information to be released.

  81. Harri – if you’re around, why don’t you review the response and evidence which I gave to troll and, if you find it persuasive, you give it to him as your answer?

  82. Revealing satellite images also reveals how capable the satellite imaging technology is.

    That’s why countries are very reluctant to share such things with those who are not their friends. And Putin is not our friend. He does not need to find out how good our satellites are.

  83. Harri

    You support anyone in the world that is against the British Government, The American Government, and the Israeli Government you root for, and defend them. You live in a fantasy world that accepts no version but your own. In your version everything I support is evil.

    So my disgust applies to you also if that wasn’t clear from my earlier responses, and even though you are not as sick as Allan you too have the mindset of the enemy. Your opinions are treated from that perspective, as far as I am concerned.

  84. Allan@Aberdeen, on July 25th, 2014 at 2:14 AM Said:

    Harri – if you’re around, why don’t you review the response and evidence which I gave to troll and, if you find it persuasive, you give it to him as your answer?

    Pointless Allan

    His mind is totaly FUBAR.

  85. Phantom, on July 25th, 2014 at 2:22 AM Said:

    Revealing satellite images also reveals how capable the satellite imaging technology is.

    Phantom – very weak response. US military Inc is quite prepared to release pictures when it suits as we see below:

    http://graphics.wsj.com/russian-forces-near-ukraine/

    NATO took the rare step of releasing commercial satellite images of what it says are evidence of Russian troop concentrations in five of more than 100 makeshift bases near the border with Ukraine

    Now why not release the images of the Ukrainian AA-battery which non-corporate researchers believe was responsible for the shoot-down?

  86. yeah my mind is screwed up because I don’t believe nut cases who think Dick Cheney was involved in arranging the deaths of 3000 Americans on 9/11.

    Do yourselves a favor and check into Bethlem Royal

  87. The Troll, on July 25th, 2014 at 9:39 AM Said:

    yeah my mind is screwed up because I don’t believe nut cases who think Dick Cheney was involved in arranging the deaths of 3000 Americans on 9/11.

    That pretty much nails it.

  88. Harri

    To you the American Government is the enemy, you live in a fantasy world. There is not an iota of difference between you and Allan. Your both delusional.

    ATW is a Pro British, Pro American, and Pro Israeli site. It is not a sanctuary for the Lunacy of trutherism, or the support of terrorists in Gaza and the IRA/SF. You can accuse me of anything you want those facts will not change, and will out last all of you.

  89. The Troll, on July 25th, 2014 at 9:39 AM Said:

    yeah my mind is screwed up because I don’t believe nut cases who think Dick Cheney was involved in arranging the deaths of 3000 Americans on 9/11.

    The evidence which I posted at 1.03am confirms that Cheney was involved in 9/11 so why don’t you look at it? After all, you keep asking the questions and mocking those who know of Cheney’s involvement so there is the evidence presented on a plate for you.

  90. No little youtubes. They may pass as evidence in the Truther community, but not in real life.

    Please say, concisely, in your own words, why you think he was involved in it.

  91. Phantom – the evidence isn’t mine: it’s Norman Mineta’s testimony. You watch the part as requested, and then we can discuss it.

Comments are closed.