200 4 mins 7 yrs

This is the text of an article which appeared in The Newsletter today.

“They say that truth is the first casualty of war and nowhere has this more apparent than in events in Gaza over the past number of weeks. The international media has largely rushed to condemn Israel, with grotesque accusations of war crimes and massacres of innocent Palestinians. But much of this condemnation has been based on that spewed out by the slick propaganda machine of Hamas and we should pause for a moment and remember that we really have seen it all before.

Remember the Jenin massacre of 2002? The world’s media was awash back then with claims of Israel savagely killing thousands of Palestinians in the West Bank. Moral outrage was everywhere. Politicians queued up to castigate Israel. There was just one problem – it never happened. A Kofi Annan authored UN report subsequently made it clear that around 25 Palestinian civilians had died along with 23 Israeli soldiers. It was pure unadulterated Palestinian propaganda aimed at generating sympathetic headlines and burying truth in the heat of the moment. In 2002, the media swallowed the lie and in 2014 the same tendency remains.

Hamas know they cannot defeat the superior military power of Israel but they have more deadly weapons than anything the IDF possess.

They can use the civilians of Gaza as their alternative to the Iron Dome and in doing so generate sympathy from a media that seems almost eager to believe the worst of Israel whilst accepting the best of Hamas.

Hamas have used the basement of Gaza City’s Shifa hospital as their military command and control structure – cynically calculating that when Israel hits back they will win the sympathy of the “International Community”. The same logic drives Hamas to utilise UN schools in Gaza as missile storage locations. When Israel takes these out it then becomes charged as being the aggressor. In this way, Mosques, private houses, schoolyards, they all become perfect locations to launch for the terror war against Israel.

In this age of social media, an electronic intifada has also been used to paint Israel as the bad guys. Hundreds of terrible images of women and children have been posted on-line. Many of these have turned out to be from nearby Syria, where Muslims kill Muslims with much less moral outrage from the great and the good. The deliberate misattribution of these images can be described as a Pallywood production for the gullible.

When one reads the cant trotted out by many Governments across the world on this issue, it seems that Israel has a theoretical right to defend itself from Hamas just so long as this does not happen in practice. Israel vacated Gaza in 2005 with not so much as one Jewish person remaining in it. Over the past 10 years, Hamas have systematically turned this area into one vast base for conducting terror against their Israeli neighbour. With a charter that explicitly seeks the utter destruction of Israel, Hamas can only preen as victims if the world’s media remain with their eyes wide shut.”

 

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200 thoughts on “PALLYWOOD FOR THE GULLIBLE

  1. I believe it is worse than the article states. It has reached the point of complicity of both the Press and the other Governments of the world.

    The use of Hamass of Hospitals and Schools as Primary Military Facilities is a war crime.

    Where have the condemnations of this been? I have not read any in the press, heard a single government leader, or the U.N. whose main purpose was to create an organization for disputes like this to be resolved speak one word against the use of these facilities.

  2. I believe it is worse than the article states. It has reached the point of complicity of both the Press and the other Governments of the world.

    Thats is exactly what Allan has been trying to tell you.

  3. // with grotesque accusations of war crimes and massacres of innocent Palestinians.
    Remember the Jenin massacre of 2002? …There was just one problem – it never happened.//

    Whatever about that, the massacres of innocents in this case definitely did happen. Even the Israelis admit that half (Israeli figure) of the people killed in Gaza were civilians, i.e. Israel itself admits to killing 900 civilians, and only David and other ostriches like to pretend it didn’t.

    The true figure of civilians killed is of course much higher.

    Re. the war crimes, we’ll see what international courts think of that. As far as I can see, Israel definitely is guilty of war crimes as understood until now.
    But maybe the US will be able to bribe and buy a way out for its naughty baby.

    //it seems that Israel has a theoretical right to defend itself from Hamas just so long as this does not happen in practice.//

    Palestinians have of course no right to defend themselves at all, either in theory or in practice.

    On reflection, I am coming around to Pete Moore’s view here, that the Israeli attack on Hamas was planned well in advance. They merely then had to wait for some excuse for a major move, in this case the kidnapping and murder of the teenagers, which Israel then rushed to claim (Bibi “knows for a fact”) was carried out by Hamas, when all indicators show it wasn’t.

    //Israel vacated Gaza in 2005 with not so much as one Jewish person remaining in it. //

    Israel continued to control and seal off Gaza’s territorial waters, its airspace and land borders. It prevented an airport and a port being built, simply by bombing the construction works.
    Any one of these measures would be considered an act of war if done by anyone else or against anyone else.

  4. Israel continued to control and seal off Gaza’s territorial waters, its airspace and land borders. It prevented an airport and a port being built, simply by bombing the construction works.
    Any one of these measures would be considered an act of war if done by anyone else or against anyone else.

    I have made it crystal clear I am not on one side or the other, I do not know or understand enough about the never ending conflict to do so, but one thing is also crystal clear, Israel appears to do as it bloody well pleases, and no-one can do or say anything to change her mind.

  5. If Gaza had not been blockaded, how much more of a military base would it have evolved into?

    There is a path to lifting the blockade- no more rockets , no more tunnels is part of that path.

    The enormous resources used to build these military tools might have been used to construct an economy of some kind.

  6. //There is a path to lifting the blockade- no more rockets //

    The Hamas govt are as unable to stop people firing rockets in Gaza as the British govt to stop people firing rockets in NI.

    Besides, the purpose of the blockade is not to stop rockets, which in normal times have killed on average one person a year, even before Iron Dome. The purpose of the blockade is to strangle Hamas. And it ain’t working.

  7. One argument repeated over and over again is that Hamas sites their rockets in built-up areas.
    Well, seeing as Gaza is the most built-upon enclave on the planet, it would be tactical suicide to position them in the middle of a football pitch or waste ground for everyone to see.

    On another technical point, Hamas seems to have an enormous stockpile of rockets, which could hardly be stored in “tunnels”.
    I would suggest they have dug huge underground caverns, probably away from buildings, and connected via those tunnels.

    This is nothing new, which is why the saturation bombing of North Vietnam was such a singular failure — they’d re-located almost their entire military arsenal into hundreds of miles of underground depots & tunnels.
    (Big tourist attraction now btw)

  8. It seems that this article in the Newsletter is another small part of the propaganda war. It uses a UN report to discredit allegations about Jenin, I wonder will it be so quick to use UN figures and articles regarding numbers of civilians being killed and civilians and civilian infrastructure being deliberately targetted?

    Anyhow, Netanyathu seems to be rattled about it:

    http://nypost.com/2014/08/06/netanyahu-asks-us-to-help-israel-avoid-war-crime-charges/

  9. The Hamas govt are as unable to stop people firing rockets in Gaza as the British govt to stop people firing rockets in NI.</blockquote

    >

    Yeah, sure.

    (Big tourist attraction now btw)

    I’ve been in those Cu Chi Tunnels. They had to widen them to accommodate us well fed westerners.

  10. Thats is exactly what Allan has been trying to tell you.

    No Harri, he hasn’t. He has been trying to tell us that the Jews are responsible for a conspiracy that is out to destroy western civilisation.
    That’s very different, not to mention illogical.
    Why would the Jewish Clandenista come up with a plot to destroy the west wherein live many many other Jews and from whence comes a certain support for Israel?

  11. Harri,

    Israel appears to do as it bloody well pleases, and no-one can do or say anything to change her mind.

    But that is not true.
    There are political organisations within Israel who work to change opinion and policy.
    There are political organisations outside of Israel who work to change opinion and policy.
    There Jewish and non Jewish pressure groups and charities which do the same thing. You can read about them and contact them if you wish.
    Is that not so?

  12. If the Hamas government has no power to stop the missiles or tunnel construction, then there’s no point in anyone talking to them.

    If they have no control over the territory, then Israel should be asked to talk to whoever does have control and or influence.

  13. //If the Hamas government has no power to stop the missiles or tunnel construction, then there’s no point in anyone talking to them.
    If they have no control over the territory, then Israel should be asked to talk to whoever does have control and or influence.//

    You mean Sinn Fein should never have negotiated with the British governemnt because they “have no control” over Northern Ireland, what with all those mortars being fired?

    Or what do you mean?

    First of all, you don’t talk to a government just so that it can fulfill Israel’s wish list. Only Americans do that.

    Hamas is the elected government, it is involved in Gaza society in 100 different ways. It is now even more embedded in the population because of the Israeli slaughter. There can obviously be no settlement involving Gaza unless Hamas is part of it. This is much more obvious than there could be no settlement in NI without SF/IRA, which it took the Br govt over 20 years to realise.

    Second, nobody except you suggested they have “no control over the territory”.
    One reason that they don’t complete control is, well, that they and the place have been bombarded with rockets, shells and bombs for a month.
    That tends to disrupt public administration.

  14. The situation in troubles era within Northern Ireland was not the same, or even similar to that of Hamas / Israel.

    The UK was the agent for the British military and police, who were parties to the conflict. Of course they should needed to be part of the negotiation.

    The primary issue here is the offensive firing of rockets by Hamas. If Hamas has can’t stop the rocket firing from its territory, or at least do the best it can to stop it, then they’re irrelevant.

    Find out who controls things and consider negotiate with them.

  15. //The primary issue here is the offensive firing of rockets by Hamas//

    What offensive are you talking about?

    Hamas fires rockets when Israel targets Hamas and kills Palestinians.

    I find nothing offensive about that.

    Besides, Hamas rockets against Israel are “the primary issue” only for Israelis and Americans. The free works knows that rockets are just a symptom of a wider problem.

    As I said: blocking off a territory by land, sea and the air, and preventing its people from establishing any contact with the outside world, is an act of war.
    If only a fraction of that was done against US borders, airports and seaports, they’d be screaming “genocide”.

    //The situation in troubles era within Northern Ireland was not the same, or even similar to that of Hamas / Israel.//

    I agree with that at least.
    Hamas has the support of the majority of the people and was elected into government, whereas SF had the support of about 16 pc of the people of NI.

    The Israelis and probably the Americans would like to work out some cozy deal without Hamas but with some Arabs of their choosing. Well, forget it. You made your bed , go lie on it.

  16. //The UK was the agent for the British military and police,//

    But still couldn’t stop rockets being fired in NI.

    They obviously had “no control over their territory”.

  17. The IRA did not fire thousands of long distance rockets over time and AFAIK never launched any type of rockets indiscriminately in to any civilian areas the way the Arabs have done.

    The IRA had an anti British government segment of the population that it could swim in.

    Are you saying that the Gaza Rockets guys have an anti or at least non-cooperating with the Palestinian government sea in which it is operating?

  18. //Are you saying that the Gaza Rockets guys have an anti or at least non-cooperating with the Palestinian government //

    Well, I wasn’t saying that, but now that you mention it, yes, of course.

    But either way, you are running away from your own arguments. You said that people were firing rockets from Gaza, and if the Gaza govt couldn’t stop them it means (error 1) that it “has no control over” Gaza and then (error 2) if it has no control in Gaza peacemakers should not be expected to talk to it.

    My reference to NI was to show that, even if some group were firing rockets somewhere contrary to the govt’s wishes, it certainly does not mean the govt has no control over the place. Otherwise you’d have to say the British govt had “no control over” NI, and from that, via error 2, that there was no point in Sinn Fein or the Irish govt talking to the British govt.

    That is very strange reasoning.

    Maybe Agit8ed can explain it.

    //The IRA did not fire thousands of long distance rockets over time//

    You think Israel would be ok with Hamas if Hamas fired rockets only occasionally?
    Hell, the Israelis attacked Hamas even when it was firing no rockets at all!

    //never launched any type of rockets indiscriminately in to any civilian areas the way the Arabs have done. //

    You think Israel would be ok with Hamas if Hamas fired rockets only at Israeli troops?
    That’s daft, Mark Regev was shouting about “terrorists” this and “terrorists” that even when he was referring only to Hamas killing invading troops in Gaza.

  19. The proper number of rockets fired at civilians is zero.

    The proper number of military oriented tunnels is zero.

    Devote the energy that goes into rocket-based war crimes and endless tunnel building into building a peaceful economy. The blockade will end before you know it, and solutions may begin to be found.

    If something doesn’t work, stop doing it. That’s my strategy.

  20. But that is not true.
    There are political organisations within Israel who work to change opinion and policy.
    There are political organisations outside of Israel who work to change opinion and policy.
    There Jewish and non Jewish pressure groups and charities which do the same thing. You can read about them and contact them if you wish.
    Is that not so?

    It’s not working 😉

  21. //If something doesn’t work, stop doing it. That’s my strategy.//

    I wish you’d tell that to the Israelis, as they’ve alredy invaded Gaza several times and killed many thousands of people, and they seem to be back where they were a month ago, except that Hamas is stronger now than it was then and Israel is now more condemned in world opinion than ever before.

    The colonisation of Palestine isn’t working. Israelis continue to rob Palestine land, but the Palestinians aren’t going away.

    //The proper number of rockets fired at civilians is zero.//

    That didn’t help Hamas; they had stopped firing rockets, yet their members were interned and their people killed.

  22. //The IDF says that 41 rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013. Which is a lot less than the years before but which is 41 more than there should be. True or false?//

    I’ve no idea; I certainly wouldn’t believe what the IDF says on face value, as they’ve told innumerable lies about much more important things – like people being killed – over the past month.

  23. If you have no idea whether this IDF number for 2013 is true or not, how can you be sure that Hamas had stopped firing rockets in 2013?

  24. Phantom,
    the real issue is this:
    Israel left Gaza in 2005 with greenhouses for cut flowers, other bits and pieces and an intact infrastructure.
    The Gazans voted in Hamas 2006
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

    Hamas set about strengthening links with Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood government and smuggling in materials for armaments etc
    http://www.idfblog.com/hamas/2013/01/25/seven-years-later-gazas-reality-under-hamas/

    They have used the people who voted them in as part of their war effort against Israel, and they and their supporters have only themselves to blame for what has happened.

    I totally accept that it must have been like being in a prison, and that the loss of access to Egypt increased that feeling.
    BUT
    they didn’t have to resort to a rocket and tunnel campaign against Israel. The West Bank is at least commercially viable without resorting to continued terror, and do have access to work in Israel or Jordan.
    There was another possibility open to them which was to show through peaceful means that would not have involved sacrificing their women and children for horror photos to shock a voyeuristic world.
    They could have entered into peace talks with Israel without laying down preconditions. They could have kept at it and refused to abandon peace talks until an agreement was reached.
    Instead they stayed true to their Charter commitment of wiping Israel out, and they have done this using the unwelcome deaths of their civilian population as publicity.

    Israel could have refused to fire back, but anyone want to say hand on heart that Hamas would have called for a ceasefire and talks?

  25. Gaza chose war and war they were given.

    Considering the realities, that is about the most self destructive decision any people has ever made.

    They could have chosen a more peaceful path, one that led to a better short and long term economy.

    The points about the greenhouses is completely true. It was a bought and paid for infrastructure for a job and revenue creating export industry. The Gazans tore the houses down. How completely stupid is that?

  26. //If you have no idea whether this IDF number for 2013 is true or not, how can you be sure that Hamas had stopped firing rockets in 2013?//

    The same way that, while I am aware there were thousands of murders committed in 2013, I am sure that, say, my son committed none of them.

    It’s called “good authority”.

    //Israel left Gaza in 2005 with greenhouses for cut flowers,//

    //The points about the greenhouses is completely true. It was a bought and paid for infrastructure for a job and revenue creating export industry. The Gazans tore the houses down//

    Most of the greenhouses were destroyed by ISRAELIS, you goons.
    Yet ANOTHER own goal!

    Another thing that has become even clearer than before through this latest violence is how thoroughly ignorant most Americans are about Israel-Palestine.

    I think it’s honest to say – Phantom correct me if I am wrong – that a large majority of Americans – if they think about it at all – will believe most or all of the lazy ideas that also regularly surface here, e.g. that Israel occupied the Palestinian land in a defensive war, that Palestinians were offered the West Bank in the Oslo talks, that Hamas started the latest round of violence, and, now, that the famous “greenhouses” were destroyed by the Palestinians etc etc.

    I also think it can be reliably said that the more people are inclined to support Israel, the more they will be ignorant of these and other key facts.

    That wouldn’t be bad if their influence stayed in America, but they are electing politicians who probably also believe this garbage and who are accordingly keeping the robbery and killing going by giving Israel the money and weapons it needs to commit these crimes.

  27. Phantom, more of those greenhouses were destroyed by Israelis than by Palestinians.

    I know you’d like to blame Arabs for all ills in the Middle East, but it won’t work as long as I’m around 🙂

    USD 14 million was raised for the settlers, but it apparently wasn’t enough for them and most of the greenhouses destroyed fell victim to their anger.

    BTW, who told you it was “American Jewish donors” who paid the 14 m to the settlers?

    Lemmie guess: Was it the same people who told you that the Arabs destroyed them and that Hamas fired all those rockets and that them bad Arabs attacked Israel in 1967 ?

  28. No, $14 million was raised for the Palestinians, to give the Palestinians the greenhouses.

    The soon to be evicted settlers were otherwise entitled to demolish every one the structures that the settlers had paid for.

    If settlers destroyed a certain amount of assets, that makes it a good idea for the Palestinians to destroy another set of job and revenue generating assets that were given to them free of charge?

    You are not making a whole lot of sense here.

  29. The soon to be evicted settlers were otherwise entitled to demolish

    What are you smoking? They weren’t entitled to even be there in the first place.

  30. The settlements’ greenhouses, which were supposed to be left intact by Israel, but half of which were demolished by their owners before leaving,[29] were also looted by Palestinian mobs. Palestinian Authority security forces attempted to stop them, but did not have enough manpower to be effective. In some places, there was no security, while some police officers joined the looters.[38] Some damage was done to the greenhouses as a result of the looting, but they came through essentially intact.[39] Subsequently the harvest, intended for export via Israel for Europe, was essentially lost due to the Israeli restrictions on the Karni crossing which “was closed more than not”, leading to losses in excess of $120,000 per day.[39] Economic consultants estimated that the closures cost the whole agricultural sector in Gaza $450,000 a day in lost revenue.[40]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza#Greenhouses

    So that bit appears true. I didn’t know that I must admit.

  31. If someone stole your home would you keep their grubby possessions when they go running or would you burn them in a big fire in the yard?


  32. “Under international pressure to save what is left for Palestinian economic development, Israeli and international officials are working on a plan to pay settlers to hand over the remaining greenhouses and a dairy to Palestinians, to preserve jobs and production. These businesses provide thousands of jobs to Gazans.”

    Not that it makes a lot of difference Phantom, but evidently wealthy American Jews raised 10 or 14million dollars to pay off the settlers who installed the greenhouses so that they could then be handed over to the Palestinians.

  33. If someone stole your home would you keep their grubby possessions when they go running or would you burn them in a big fire in the yard?

    Bad choice of words mon frer petit,
    They didn’t run away, they were ordered to withdraw.
    I imagine burning glass and aluminium would be quite difficult.

  34. Those greenhouses were jobs and revenue machines for the Israelis when they lived there

    They were given to the Palestinians so that they could have the same jobs and revenues. Not the most evil plan I’ve heard of.

    If you think that it’s OK to burn down a source of jobs, in a clean and steady export business, then fine, knock yourself out. Burn down but don’t come crying to me about poverty then.

    This is what happens when rage and emotion override logic and self interest – they destroyed a small jobs factory. That is not intelligent.

  35. //, $14 million was raised for the Palestinians, to give the Palestinians the greenhouses. //

    Palestinians giving Palestinians the greenhouses?

    The $ 14 million was raised to pay the Israelis as compensation for their loss of the greenhouses and for clearing out of Gaza, if they handed the greenhouses over to the Palestinians.

    As I said, most of the greenhouses that were destroyed were destroyed by Israelis. They had wanted more compensation, even though the 14 m alredy included additional compensation for leaving Gaza, i.e. the 14 m was in excess of the value of the deal.

    The Israeli settlers wanted more cash, the World Bank was unable to deliver so they destroyed the greenhouses.
    It seems they wanted to loot the World Bank as much as the West Bank.

    But what a climbdown. You thought you had a good clincher by claiming the Palestinians destroyed the glasshouses!

    New York Times, July 15, 2005

    ISRAELI SETTLERS DEMOLISH GREENHOUSES AND GAZA JOBS

    About half the greenhouses in the Israeli settlements in Gaza have already been dismantled by their owners, who have given up waiting to see if the government was going to come up with extra payment as an inducement to leave them behind, say senior officials working on the coordination of this summer’s Israeli pullout from Gaza.

    Of the roughly 1,000 acres of agricultural land that were under greenhouses in the 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, only 500 acres remain – creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as “a living business,” the goal cited by the Israeli coordinator of the pullout, Eival Giladi.

    You must admit, you really learn a lot from these debates, Phantom!

    Now: how do you know the USD 14 m was paid by Jews, as you claimed?

    Or were you just making that bit up too?

  36. If the IDF all put down their arms, all of Israel would suffer the same fate as the greenhouses.

    And then where would you be?

    Tear down the buildings. What an excellent strategy.

  37. Noel

    I followed the story as it happened.

    The donation is mentioned in the NBC article I linked to.

    Would you like copies of the cancelled checks or wire transfers?

    You have lost the plot on this one.

  38. Phantom, there was a post in this weblink which I thought was pretty observant and links to Petr’s comment the other day about going to help in under developed poor nations, and asking but WHY are they under developed and poor?

    http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/gaza-greenhouse-effect.html

    Anonymous said…

    Does it ever occur to anyone that the corruption and poverty in the Gaza Srip and the West Bank (especially before the intifadah and even before Israel’s existence) have an organic, cultural foundation? The tribalism, religious dogmatism, and misogyny that have long characterized Arab and Islamic culture have produced low quality of life in many Arab countries that are not under Israeli occupation. In fact, I believe quality of life in the West Bank is better than in Egypt. So can’t we look at this looting of greenhouses with just a bit more nuance? Sure, they did it because they were impoverished. But were they impoverished simply because Israel was occupying them? Would the Gaza Strip have been Singapore were it not for Israel? Can we see an example of this in any Arab country whose wealth is not inflated by oil revenues?

    For the record, I find the Israeli occupation sickening, but I’ve traveled through Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq (though quite some time ago), and what I saw led me to believe that, simply put, culture matters.”

  39. I’ve had enough of the Palestinians.

    This fixation on “Palestinian land” proves they’re just a bunch of grubby, social-climbing, bourgeois nationalists. Bloody UKIPers with a tan.

  40. $14 million was raised for the Palestinians, to give the Palestinians the greenhouses.

    ????

    evidently wealthy American Jews raised 10 or 14million dollars to pay off the settlers who installed the greenhouses so that they could then be handed over to the Palestinians.

  41. If you think that it’s OK to burn down a source of jobs, in a clean and steady export business, then fine, knock yourself out. Burn down but don’t come crying to me about poverty then.

    Israel doesn’t allow Gaza to export. As Noel said, you DO learn a lot from these exchanges Phantom!

  42. Petr

    The blockade is -now-

    The intent -then- was to try to have a relationship that included Gazan exports, and part of those exports was those of flowers. Which was why the evil Jews ( American ones here ) funded the purchase of these greenhouses to be given without conditions to help begin a real economy there.

    I remember this when it happened. There were discussions of the donation before it happened and after on a radio show that I listen to. ( no one else here cares to listen toi it )

    There were a number of liberal Jews, Americans and others who really wanted some positives to come out of the.Gaza withdrawal. They gave generously, only to have the greenhouses wrecked right away instead of using them as job and export generators.

    You teach people how they should treat you. What lessons did the Palestinians give to those who gave the geeenhouses to them? That the hatred is so great that even condition free asset domations will be destroyed upon receipt? That the hatred is so great that no gesture of friendship or reconciliation will be even considered?

  43. //I remember this when it happened. //

    //The Gazans tore the houses down.//

    //They were then destroyed by Palestinians//

    If you remembered this from when it happened, you’d have known that it was the Israeli settlers that “tore the houses down”, and that it’s a lie to claim it was the Palestinians who did.

    //That the hatred is so great that no gesture of friendship or reconciliation //

    Like the settlers’ gesture of destroying the homes they had lived in for years on stolen Palestinian land rather than see Palestinians live in them?

  44. Oh dear – an Australian journalist who criticised Israel’s destruction of Gaza has been sacked

    FORMER Fairfax columnist Mike Carlton has responded to his resignation on independent media website Crikey, claiming he’s received endless abuse from offended readers after he wrote a column criticising Israel’s actions in Gaza.
    In the latest controversy, Carlton was caught out sending abusive responses and tweets to readers who questioned his position on the conflict, calling one critic a “Jewish bigot” and telling several others to “f**k off”.

    “I’ve been called a bag of Nazi slime, a Jew-hating racist … endlessly,” he told Crikey this morning.

    “Much of it has been obscene. I suppose, half-a-dozen times, I hit back and told people to get f***ed”.

    Here’s the accompanying accurate cartoon and the man in the seat evokes Agit to me given his willingness to serve in Israel’s front-line armchair:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715083/Fairfax-apologises-anti-Semitic-cartoon-Attorney-General-brands-deplorable.html

    And the reality is shown below in the same link – a very accurate cartoon indeed, so accurate that it is obviously ‘anti-semitic’. Thanks Jews!!

  45. Well, the cartoon is antisemetic albeit of a vintage that Der Fuhrer would have recognised, mein spinmeister.
    Look at the next picture of the young people watching. In Israel they don’t have the Hitler Youth Movement, but they do have to serve in the military from 18-21.
    Young people tend to be very principled, see things in black and weiss, and have a strong sense of justice. These Israeli young people (some of whom will probably be involved in or support the LGBT movement) will be exactly the same, because unlike your Hitler Youth Movement Allan, they will have been educated to question everything and test everything.
    They will have been taught that only Israelis can save Israel, and that they cannot trust others to (like me) to come to their aid, but that doesn’t mean that they will accept that the ends justify the means.
    Many Western intellectuals accepted this idea when they were wetting themselves with excitement over the supposed achievements of Soviet Russia or China or Nazi Germany, but we have moved on from there I hope.. 😉

  46. ISIS: We Are Operating in Gaza
    The extremist terror organization is establishing a toehold inside Gaza, despite Hamas’ claims to the contrary

    Just looking at the ‘reporters’ credited with that story. They wouldn’t be Israeli would they?

    Breaking news indeed.

  47. Well, the cartoon is antisemetic….

    Agit – how can the cartoon be anti-Semitic when the facts on what the cartoon is based are shown directly below the cartoon – see link at 10.00am? The only alternative is that fact-based criticism of Israel is considered ‘anti-semitic’ by those of a jewish-supremacist persuasion.

    The old geezer sitting on the settee – that could easily be based on you given that you are prepared to sit on Israel’s ‘front-line’, with appropriate crisps and beverages.

  48. Here’s a take from Gatestone on ISIS in Gaza. I fcan’t guarantee it’s a Jew free report, and as the IRA have yet to issue their own bulletein (after consultation with their Palestinian Branch) you will have to make do with this one.
    “Hamas seems to be losing control of the dozens of terror cells in the Gaza Strip.

    Hamas prevented local journalists from covering the ISIS rally in the Gaza Strip last month as part of its effort to deny the existence of ISIS in the Gaza Strip. But Hamas seems to be trying to cover the sun with one finger.”

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4392/isis-gaza

  49. Look at the Matterhorn sized nose on that cartoon character. Right out of the thirties.

    Gotta love it Allan.

  50. Well, the cartoon is antisemetic….

    You spelt ‘antisemitic’ wrong…
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I already explained above that Israeli young people are taught to think for themselves Allan.
    That’s why they have demos and protest parties in Israel. It’s called democracy. Shalom Achshav springs to mind, but there are others.
    But as I recall I provided bigots and antisemites like you with Israeli blogs -but you and Paul aren’t interested are you.
    Bigots are like that. Give them the opportunity to talk to the people they dislike and they can’t bring themselves to do it.

  51. Young people tend to be very principled, see things in black and weiss, and have a strong sense of justice. These Israeli young people (some of whom will probably be involved in or support the LGBT movement) will be exactly the same, because unlike your Hitler Youth Movement Allan, they will have been educated to question everything and test everything.

    Young principled Israelis:

  52. … and as the IRA have yet to issue their own bulletein…

    For the love of god, Agi, can you please try not to drag the IRA into every thread!? Please! It’s boring and getting to be very predictable. Thank you.

  53. Well now Seimi,
    there is a very good reason for that to do with the relationship between the IRA and SinnFein and how the two didn’t communicate or collude but fortunately somehow they were able to work towards the same goal, and none of the supporters of that armed campaign publicly demonstrated against any excesses committed -and I don’t mean the SDLP, I mean the real SF IRA supporters.
    But you may have been on holiday when that was all going on, and out of respect for you personally I will stop.

  54. Agi, you don’t half talk some bollocks most of the time. Are you the new Logical Unionist?

    Who ever said that there was no communication between SF and the IRA? I’ve told you umpteen times that in some cases there was duel membership.

    What do you think about young principled Israelis being imprisoned by Israel because of their principles?

  55. Agit8ed, on August 8th, 2014 at 3:50 PM Said:

    Well, the cartoon is antisemetic….

    You spelt ‘antisemitic’ wrong…

    Agit – who’s the recipient of that? A note to yourself, I hope.

    The cartoon at 10.00am has the factual basis of the cartoon right below it on the link. How therefore can the cartoon be ‘anti-semitic’ – unless facts are anti-semitic?

  56. there is a very good reason for that…

    Really? On a thread about Palestine? In fact, on just about every thread you comment on these days? Like I said, it’s very boring.

  57. //Well, the cartoon is antisemetic….

    You spelt ‘antisemitic’ wrong…//

    Agit8ed, is talking to himself again. 🙁

    // the relationship between the IRA and SinnFein and how the two didn’t communicate or collude //

    …or maybe to the voices in his head again.

  58. On a thread about Palestine?
    Of course Seimi. Didn’t you know that the IRA worked closely and trained with the PLO? The IRA were very pally with the Pallies. They continue to support Hamas who want to wipe Israel off the map, full stop.
    Where do you think all this anti Israel bile from one or two comes from? If you want (but I know you don’t) I can give you the websites that show the historic IRA PLO connections.

    You spelt ‘antisemitic’ wrong…

    Allan: “Agit – who’s the recipient of that? A note to yourself, I hope.”

    Noel the Cur Maker: “You spelt ‘antisemitic’ wrong…// Agit8ed, is talking to himself again. 🙁 ”

    What is it about people like you two that you have no sense of humour? You think I didn’t do that deliberately to see what someone would make of it?
    And you didn’t disappoint, either of you.. 🙂

  59. Agi

    Were the thread about the relationship between the PLO and the IRA, I would understand perfectly why you would mention the IRA. However, the thread is about neither the PLO or the IRA, so why do you feel the need to bring the IRA into it? You wrote

    Here’s a take from Gatestone on ISIS in Gaza. I fcan’t guarantee it’s a Jew free report, and as the IRA have yet to issue their own bulletein (after consultation with their Palestinian Branch) you will have to make do with this one.

    So, you cite a report of some kind about ISIS in Gaza, and then, for no apparent reason, you bring the IRA into it. Why do you feel the need to do this? It is boring and it is repetitive. It’s also becoming the norm for you. Reading back over some of the threads I missed while I was away, you seem to throw the IRA and SF completely randomly into threads. It’s as if you’re trying to deflect the conversation. It’s akin to placing a brick on the tracks in an attempt to de-rail the train.

    What is your obsession with them?

  60. Okay Seimi I am going to try and explain to you it.
    But I am going to have to go back and try and find the thread that brought it to a head..
    Watch this space..

  61. There’s a thread that explains why you indiscriminately mention the IRA in random posts? This I’ve got to see…

  62. Agit8ed

    Don’t try and explain it, just stop becoming a counter version of Allan. We know he has an obsession with bringing Jews into every topic, you don’t have to gain the same reputation for bringing IRA/Sinn Fein into every discussion.

  63. GOTCHA…

    I think this thread started it..

    GOTCHA…


    Here’s a key bit;

    “Please re-read…

    “Because there are in that fair country of Ireland people so zealous, so fanatical, that they’d side with anybody – even the Nazis if it helped them achieve their goal.
    They did it with the PLO they did it with other terror groups, even drug cartels.

    The idea that realising “The Cause” was worth consorting with anyone, training with anyone, killing anyone regarded as an enemy of “The Cause” is imo quite similar to the values held by Hamas.”

    Look at photos again that show Israelis being compared to Nazis etc. The people I am referring to above would accuse Israel of anything such is the manifest hate displayed by people who supported the PLO and other terrorist groups, plus drug cartels..
    That was my point re-extermination camps.
    It’s not voices in the head Noel, it’s you not reading the links which demonstrate my opinions..”

    Somewhere here Paul brought out the fact that he supported the IRA campaign.

    GAS THE JEWS…


    (We’re getting there..
    No, I haven’t found it, But I do seem to remember that you were present when Paul McMahon admitted he supported the IRA armed campaign?
    It went from there to attacks on the Royal Marine Bandsmen at Deal and elsewhere, and my incomprehension that a man who supported the IRA campaign which killed innocent people could make moral judgements on what Israel was doing in Gaza.
    That’s probably the crux of it and why I have challenged him ever since.

  64. Yes Agit but that’s all waffle. You do have a tendency on any thread where Noel Seimi or Paul are present to bang on about the IRA or the Troubles in general. Even if the topic is about bike rides or favourite fruit or favourite sexual positions or anything completely unrelated to the great Irish struggle. You need to get counselling or help to wean you off your obsession. 😉

  65. Agit8ed

    Don’t try and explain it, just stop becoming a counter version of Allan. We know he has an obsession with bringing Jews into every topic, you don’t have to gain the same reputation for bringing IRA/Sinn Fein into every discussion.

    Colm
    I hold you in high esteem, but on this you are mistaken.
    The only reason I do this is because Paul McMahon said categorically that he approved of the IRA armed campaign.
    He regards the Deal Barracks massacre (shurely an atrociteh!!) as a legitimate military despite the fact they were having a band practice.

    He accepts the murder of the widow woman June McConville, mother of ten children, ripped away from them crying and weeping to be shot in the back of the head and buried in some lonely spot God bless her.

    Sorry Seimi, but these and the murder of innocent civilians were evil acts, and to accept that not only were they ‘necessary’ but that IRA Sinn Fein supporters and voters were not able to publicly express their disapproval of these acts of murder makes a mockery of the Sinn Fein’s assertion that they were representing the people..

  66. Agi

    I had quite a long response written, but I re-read it and deleted it, because I realised it was written in anger and frustration at your response above, and I would have regretted writing it later.

    Basically what you are saying is that, because of your ‘incomprehension’ at Paul’s stance, and because, by your own admission, you don’t want to know why he held that stance, you have taken it upon yourself to insert IRA into any and all conversations, to challenge him?

    He was right. you are the new Logical Unionist.

  67. I am not mistaken. The views of Paul, Seimi and Noel on the IRA ( even if they were to be fanatical supporters of everything the provos did) are irrelevent to the issue of you bringing that up on every topic even if the discussion is nothing to do with Northern Ireland.

    Its a bit like someone here expressing say a strong anti-abortion view and you deciding to mention it on every post regardless of it was to do with music, history, hobbies whatever. Do you get my point ?

  68. Basically what you are saying is that, because of your ‘incomprehension’ at Paul’s stance, and because, by your own admission, you don’t want to know why he held that stance, you have taken it upon yourself to insert IRA into any and all conversations, to challenge him?

    No Seimi,
    I said I don’t understand how a man can support an IRA armed campaign with all that happened in terms of civilian casualties and innocent lives lost through IRA bombings, and mothers being torn away from their children; WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF ACCOUNTABILITY TO ANYONE – NOT EVEN SINN FEIN.
    BECAUSE ACCORDING TO PAUL, THE IRA KEPT THEIR ACTIVITIES HIDDEN FROM EVERYBODY, INCLUDING SINN FEIN. Their objectives ‘just happened’ to overlap sometimes.

    Sinn Fein says it represents the people who vote for it; but neither IRA supporters nor SinnFein voters publicly condemned the outrages of bomb victims or the murder of mothers torn from their children.

    Yet here he is on all Gaza threads condemning the Israelis for the deaths of civilian mothers and children that he accepted as necessary on behalf of ‘The Cause.’

    As far as I am concerned you can’t condemn what you condoned, and although he says that he himself did condemn, where was the public condemnation and demands for moderation from IRA /Sinn Fein supporter sympathisers?

  69. First of all, you are right – you don’t understand. And one of the many things you don’t seem to understand is that Paul McMahon does not represent the IRA or Sinn Féin, so why the hell are you hounding him across numerous threads regarding the actions of either organisation??

    You constantly tell us here about your many letters to MPs and councillors etc. – why not send one to the following:

    Gerry Adams
    Sinn Féin
    c/o Connolly House
    Andersonstown
    Belfast
    BT11

    Ask him your questions. Hound him.

    Perhaps as well as doing that, you could also check the significance of today’s (Saturday) date for Nationalists and Republicans. That might help you understand a bit better too. I’ll give you a clue – internment without trial.

  70. don’t pick on A8.

    Let Paul fight his own battles. If you have an axe to grind, find your own stone.

  71. Excuse me – are you telling me what I can and can’t comment on?

    I could just as easily ask you to butt out of a private conversation between myself and Agit8ed, but I would be just as wrong as you are now. This is a public forum, and I’ll talk with whoever I damn well please. However, as you have intruded on our private parlait, I’ll try and explain what’s happening to you, although it should be obvious.

    My initial comment was about Agit8ed’s obsession with the letters I,R,A, S & F, and his compulsion to insert them into every conversation. He then provided links to older threads which he said would explain the reasoning behind this compulsion. When he produced it, it turns out that it’s all based around something Paul stated, and around A8’s ‘incomprehension’ of said statement, coupled with his lack of desire to actually find out why Paul had those beliefs, opinions he had formed apparently by speaking to people who don’t live here, and a media that was never particularly incined to report anything positive about our side of the community.

    I know Paul can fight his own battles. I wasn’t fighting this one for him. I was responding to Agit8ed’s comments to me. I initiated the conversation by asking the first question, and A8 responded.

    Is that ok with you?

  72. no it’s not ok with me.

    Nobody minds their own business why should it start now? As you said it is a public forum… funny I’ve heard that from a couple of people.

    What you have to understand is, that yes you are welcome here, Paul is welcome here, so is everybody else, but what you boys have yet to understand is your views are welcome on any subject that you want to talk about, or comment on. I or anyone else wouldn’t say otherwise. It doesn’t mean you’ll like what you hear.

    What I will say is that obsession as you put it on the letters IRA and SF is something YOU choose to get rubbed the wrong way on by the way people comment about them.

    This is not now, nor has ever been a site that looks kindly on the IRA/SF.

    This is a site founded by a NI man that views himself as a Citizen of Great Britain, and supports NI being part of it. If you expect the IRA/SF to be viewed kindly, sympathetically, or in any kind of manner other than one of contempt well too damn bad.

    There are tons of sites where they are, but this has never been one of them.

    A8 is an elderly nice guy. I consider him a friend. You want to go toe to toe with someone? Bring it at me.

    Operation Demetrius was wrong, but it sure is hell gives you no right to be hostile now over 40yrs later with people who had nothing to do with it.

    Like I said this is a British/American blog that has welcomed all of you.

    you might want to remember that.

  73. Nobody is picking on A8 or anyone else. Everyone is entitled to express their opinions here and to engage with whoever they like. As I said before if any individual does not wish to engage with another person they can simply ignore them. All this nonsense about telling others to ‘stay off my threads’ or closing comments (yes Troll who have damaged ATW by your stance) is wrong.

    On this issue A8 is perfectly entitled if he wishes, to mention the IRA as obsessively as Allan mentions the Jews, and in return Seimi Paul myself and anyone else is also entitled to criticise him for it. Nobody should ever be censoring comments, closing threads, telling anyone else to ‘butt out’ or telling people what they can and cannot say. The only thing anyone on ATW should ever be doing is either partcicpating or choosing not to participate in a thread as an individual choice.

  74. //I don’t understand how a man can support an IRA armed campaign with all that happened in terms of civilian casualties and innocent lives lost through IRA bombings//

    Then you don’t understand so many things.

    For example, you don’t understand how someone can support the IDF campaign in Gaza but still strongly object to the bombing of refugee camps and UN shelters, how someone can support the US invasion of Afghanistan but still be disgusted by Guatanamo Bay etc. etc.

  75. I’ve damaged the site ? It takes more than one person to dance Colm.

    A8 is a friend, just as you are. It was my opinion that Seimi needed to be reminded as do a lot of the group. This is not a pro IRA/SF Site. I was not rude. I called no one any names. I did not attack anyone’s beliefs. I defended a friend.

    My threads are shut down because I grew tired of fighting with one person. I would like them to be open, but until someone else is held to the same standards as me it will be sometime before they are.

    My words above if you read them did not tell Seimi or anyone else nothing more than the truth.

    I may be trying not to be hostile, but others are not…. which of course is their choice.

  76. Troll

    As far as I am concerned you are perfectly entitled to say (legally) whatever you want, as is everyone else here – that is what I like about ATW. The bitter verbal fights that have occurred between people are annoying and they infuriate our host but in the end the spirit behind this blog is that it is a place where editors place opinion posts and browsers and regulars are welcome to then discuss them. When parts of the site are shut off to discussion that does harm the original intentions and ethos of this blog. I would say the same whoever is doing it but at the moment it is only you that has done that to your posts.

  77. Colm my shutting down of my threads was to avoid fighting with one individual. It was done for the harmony. I don’t like it, but it was the choice I made to keep the peace.

    It takes two to dance. I walked off the dance floor, but I’m still picking the music.

    I can ignore him on others threads, but not on mine. This is my failing and he plays on it. So for the good of the body I cut of the diseased hand.

    I’ll be back, have to work

  78. OK Troll, you have your reasons and I may not agree with them but I can accept the good intentions behind them.

    Have a nice day !

  79. Troll

    Not only have you grasped the wrong end of the stick, you have a hold of the wrong stick!

    My criticism of Agit8ed has nothing to do with his personal stance on the IRA. It has to do with what is becoming boring, repetitive trolling of threads, constant references to a subject which has nothing to do with the thread itself.

    I am well aware of the stance of the owner of this site regarding Republicanism in general and the IRA in particular. Nowhere did I say that the IRA should not be criticized here. Far from it. They deserve criticism. However, Paul, myself and others here have a different view of the conflict here, and as David has given us permission to speak (i.e. register on the site), we are as entitled as you to put forward our beliefs too, in the full knowledge that they may, and probably will be criticized.

    You don’t need to remind me of anything, by the way. I won’t take lessons in blogging etiquette from someone whose first line of defense is to attack others. I try to debate civilly here, something you have tried on a couple of occasions, with the result that people have complimented you on the ‘new Troll’, which just goes to show how bad the ‘old Troll’ is.

    I have a lot of time and respect for Agit8ed, and I think he, unlike you, will at least read what I wrote and think upon it. I’m not picking on him. This isn’t a bloody playground.

    To paraphrase yourself:

    don’t pick on me.
    Let Agit8ed fight his own battles. If you have an axe to grind, find your own stone.

  80. I’m going to reiterate something here:

    The IRA’s armed campaign was the correct and necessary thing to do at the time. In that armed campaign the IRA carried out a number of horrific atrocities which absolutely must be condemned in the strongest possible terms but, again, the principle of armed struggle was the correct response at the time.

    Clear enough?

    He regards the Deal Barracks massacre (shurely an atrociteh!!) as a legitimate military despite the fact they were having a band practice.

    Except of course they wern’t ‘having a band practice’ Deal Barracks was a British military instalation in Kent, the IRA bombed it and killed ten British soldiers. Not nice but that is the stark brutality of armed conflict.

    You once told me that your former brother in law was a RM bandsman in a German POW camp, what did he do? attack the Germans with his flute?

    Answer that question and you’ll have the answer as to why Deal barracks was bombed

    He accepts the murder of the widow woman June McConville, mother of ten children, ripped away from them crying and weeping to be shot in the back of the head and buried in some lonely spot God bless her

    And yet again you’re using that poor woman’s murder in the most cynical fashion as a whipping boy. I accept Jean McConville was murdered by the IRA for whatever reason. Acceptance of that fact doesn’t mean I endorse what happened but here’s another fact for you Agit; the next time you want to get all emotional about Jean McConville may I also suggest that you remember Joan Connolly, mother of eight children who had half her face shot off by several high velocity snipers bullets? But what monsters could murder a fifty year old mother of eight in cold blood? – The British Army Parachute Regiment could.

    http://www.ballymurphymassacre.com/cms/joan-brigid-ohara/

    Look, I couldn’t care less if the IRA is introduced in every comment in every thread on ATW, I actually find it amusing as all it does is highlight the vacousness of your ‘arguments’ and it won’t change my opinion on the Irish conflict one iota but I’ll take fuck all lectures about the morality of violence from some hypocrite who cries crocodile tears and mumbles meaningless moral platitudes about IRA violence yet can’t even bring himself to condemn soldiers when they kill four little kids and dismisses civilian deaths caused by the military as ‘these things happen in such times’

    Maybe you need to have another look at Matthew 7:5 in that book you supposedly love so much.

  81. // In that armed campaign the IRA carried out a number of horrific atrocities which absolutely must be condemned in the strongest possible terms //

    Do you mean, for example, the La Mon, Enniskillen and the Shankill Road bombings?

    If so, surely it would suffice to say that those incidents were “regrettable”, as that’s all the reaction infinitely bloodier killings by Agit8ed favourite army get that were carried out with equal or even more gross negligence of risks to innocent life.

  82. Oh dear – it appears that Joan Rivers has been ‘quoted out of context’. Unfortunately for her, there is video footage of her making the objectionable phrase :

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/joan-rivers-palestinians-deserve-to-be-dead-9656554.html

    When told by a TMZ reporter than almost 2,000 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict, she raised her hands in mock shock (scroll down to watch the film).

    “Oh my God! Tell that to the people in Hiroshima,” she says on film.

    “Good. Good. When you declare war, you declare war. They started it. We now don’t count who’s dead. You’re dead, you deserve to be dead. Don’t you dare make me feel bad about that.”

    “They were told to get out. They didn’t get out. You don’t get out, you are an idiot. At least the ones that were killed were the ones with low IQs.”

  83. This hag’s last two interviews appear to have been in the same airport. Is she homeless now, living in a terminal?

  84. Maybe she was flying somewhere? I hope that she didn’t leave her cell/mobile phone on – one sees ‘No Network Coverage’ after a few thousand feet meaning that calls cannot be made from an aircraft. It’s an experiment which I re-visited this week over Germany.

  85. Here’s the difference between what the IRA did and what the IDF has done in Gaza.
    The IRA Sinn Fein Republicans (NOT the SDLP) deliberately embarked on an armed campaign.

    Mr McMahon by his own admission supported this, He says there’s no way he would condemn that campaign, yet he also condemns innocent deaths. He also said that the IRA is answerable to no one, and that Sinn Fein didn’t know what the IRA were up to either.
    So whilst he as an individual condemned the deaths of innocent bystanders, but not collaborators, why didn’t Sinn Fein as a separate organisation also CONDEMN these outrages like Paul and demand that the IRA tone it down?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27238602

    “This month’s (2005) bombings come at an inauspicious time for Sinn Fein. The party’s political fortunes have been capsized since its IRA alter ego robbed the Northern Bank and members of both Sinn Fein and the IRA hacked to death Sinn Fein voter Robert McCartney in a gruesome orgy of psychopathic violence not authorised by the Sinn Fein leadership. The pressure is on Gerry Adams like never before to call a definitive halt to the IRA’s activities.haven’t found one yet, but quite a few like this one..

    http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu:81/am1508058g.html

    Whatever the level of collusion between the IRA and SF (denied by Mr McMahon), the issue is that SF never condemned the IRA’s campaign, and most of the evidence is that SF was the political face of the IRA and there was no room for dissent or protest. So that gives the lie to Sinn Fein representing the people.

    On the other hand, however Israel came into being she did so legitimately, and was recognised by the League of Nations and the United Nations, Israel is a bona fide nation.
    Palestine could have been (twice) but refused and no one here can say why,

    We can agree..
    Israel should change its retaliatory tactics.
    Israel should stop and reverse the settlements programme
    Israel should stop pulling down houses because one of the household was /is involved in terrorism.

    But,
    Even if she does that would Hamas change its avowed intention to wipe out the Jewish State and replace it with a fundamentalist Islamic State defined and ruled by Shari’a Law?
    Would the Islamic State cease its butchery of bad Muslims, Christians and ancient religious sects? Would she willingly halt her onwards march towards Crusader Europe and America?

    “BANG!”
    or rather, “HACK and SPLATTER! ” would go all the heads of your Israeli LGBT community.
    Women who had been raped would be stoned as adulteresses,

    CHOP! would go the hands or arms of Muslim thieves and everyone would be happy again.
    Wouldn’t they?

    Israel has to defend herself. It is not Israel’s fault that they provide better protection for their citizens whilst democratically elected terrorists like Hamas deliberately spend money on rockets and tunnels relying on the stupidity of westerners to keep on giving cash to rebuild homes for a drastically reduced civil population..

    Btw, what didja all make of the Israelis pushing Palestinians off the roof? I still say it’s a fake.

  86. That’s not true- and I’ve proven that. Twice. Real strong signals at 5,000 feet.

    And there is corroboration from people in that industry.

    They won’t work reliably at 5,000 or 10,000 feet – they’re not designed for that use. But this is not a debatable point, except among the controlled demolition types.

  87. The IRA’s armed campaign was the correct and necessary thing to do at the time. In that armed campaign the IRA carried out a number of horrific atrocities which absolutely must be condemned in the strongest possible terms

    but, again, the principle of armed struggle was the correct response at the time.

    Clear enough?

    Except that it wasn’t. They were answerable to no one. You said so yourself.
    Sinn Fein didn’t condemn what they did either.
    Most decent Northern Irelanders did, because their parties were in fact democratic and were appalled by what took place.
    Paul, I’m not out to get you nor condemn you, but there are serious inconsistencies in all this.
    I can accept criticism of Israel, but not from organisations or their supporters who accepted the murder of widowed mothers of ten kids, or punishment beatings or knee capping or blowing people and animals to bloody smithereens in the pursuit of a noble and just cause..

  88. first Seimi Thank you for the lecture about not lecturing people. You say your attitude had nothing to do with the IRA and the troubles yet your comment ended with this.

    Perhaps as well as doing that, you could also check the significance of today’s (Saturday) date for Nationalists and Republicans. That might help you understand a bit better too. I’ll give you a clue – internment without trial.

    That pretty much makes everything you had to say about the “troubles”.

    So you can say I have the wrong end of the stick all you want, and I’m not trying to teach you etiquette about anything. I’m just explaining that this is not an IRA/SF Site. We put up with your feelings regarding that subject learn to put up with ours.

    as for Paul

    Paul McMahon, on August 9th, 2014 at 4:05 PM Said:

    I’m going to reiterate something here:

    The IRA’s armed campaign was the correct and necessary thing to do at the time. In that armed campaign the IRA carried out a number of horrific atrocities which absolutely must be condemned in the strongest possible terms but, again, the principle of armed struggle was the correct response at the time.

    Clear enough?

    very clear. You believe and support putting on a Ski Mask and killing Women, Children, and Civilians. That statement is a 100% support of Political Gain through Terrorist Murder by anyone. You regret that it was ugly but you believe that killing woman and children was the right thing to do.

    and you wonder why people express outrage…. lol

    I will say no more on this subject, both of you can rail about me until you turn blue.

    The subject of the IRA/SF is what it is.

    I didn’t care for how you were dealing with A8 and tried to say so in the least offensive way as possible.

  89. Agit8ed –

    You need to clear your head. Maybe the paint fumes are fogging it up.

    I can accept criticism of Israel, but not from organisations or their supporters who accepted the murder of widowed mothers of ten kids …

    Paul McMahon has not only not accepted Jean McConville’s murder, he clearly condemns it. This is unarguable.

    Look, someone can agree with general aims of Sinn Fein/IRA (one united Ireland) while condemning acts done in support of those aims. An Irish republican regards NI as foreign-occupied territory, therefore resistance is justified. It’s quite easy to see things from the other side. You don’t need many brain cells to do so. I’m English and British, a patriot, a unionist and a former soldier, and I’ve always seen the obvious logic of the Irish republican view. It’s dishonest for anyone to say they cannot see it, or that their position defies understanding.

    Agit8ed, you would say that you recognise Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, yet you’d condemn civilian murders done by IDF men. So your point of view with regard to Israel is not that different from Paul McMahon’s with regard to Irish republicanism.

  90. Oh FFS

    Troll –

    You believe and support putting on a Ski Mask and killing Women, Children, and Civilians. That statement is a 100% support of Political Gain through Terrorist Murder by anyone.

    Can we knock this shit off?

    Paul McMahon and Seimi and other republicans in here did not and do not support the killing of civilians. This is just bullshit. Stop it. You’re damaging the blog with this crap because you you go up dead ends and have nothing but lies and insults.

    We’re supposed to debate in here, not make up lies about each other.

  91. My criticism of Agit8ed has nothing to do with his personal stance on the IRA. It has to do with what is becoming boring, repetitive trolling of threads, constant references to a subject which has nothing to do with the thread itself.

    Criticise away.
    You have every right to.
    But just as you and Paul now find yourself bored silly with my bringing the IRA/Sinn Fein into everything, maybe you might realise how pig sick I get of all the attacks and criticisms and one-sidedness and inane rebel sloganeering caricatures of Israel and the Israelis.
    I am capable of independent criticism of Israel and their methods; much more in fact than any other pro Israel supporter on this blog!
    I try to be even handed and see both sides. But when you get some idiot who supported “the armed struggle” in which many innocent people died, or were shot in the back or whatever, condemning Israel out of hand and never, NEVER! has a decent word of recognition to say about them; then I’ll keep on dealing out reminders of what he regarded as “acceptable if regrettable” in the pursuit of “the IRA/ Sinn Fein cause.”

    When he starts being more even handed about the Gaza/Israel situation, instead of spouting stupid “agitprop” slogans, then I’ll gladly quit.

    You’re right. It is boring. I don’t know what trolling means, but if yer man would stop being so one sided and accept that it ain’t all Israel’s fault and that everything that goes wring resulting in civilian casualties ISN’T an “Israeli act of BAR-baristic atrotiteh!” and that Hamas isn’t firing those rockets because they think it’s Guy Fawkes Night, we can resume reasonable pleasantries.

  92. Agit8ed

    You still don’t get it .The objections of Seimi and Paul is not to do with your views on the IRA or Israel, but exactly that practise which you now admit to doing of following them around the site shouting IRA IRA at them. Whatever you think about Paul’s views on Israel he isn’t following you around here shouting anti-Israel slogans on whatever post he sees you on. That would be a reason for you to do so in response, but not to demand that Paul must alter his views on Israel’s actions just because you don’t like them.

  93. Therefore resistance is justified.

    “Resistance” is very different to bombing campaigns in which innocent Irish and British people are “regrettably” killed.
    And let’s get honest about this Pete.
    There are hundreds of thousands of Irish people living here in England, are there not?
    You’re of Irish descent I believe?
    We English don’t go around bombing our Irish citizens, we embrace them, we appreciate their talents, their humour their contributions.
    You want to defend a guy who comes out with all sorts of crap about the English ‘lied to by their government’, the evil British squaddies shooting ‘noble Republicans’ in the back, using civilians as shield etc. you go ahead.
    But the fact remains that the Irish come here because they know they’ll be accepted, they know they’ll make friends here, and they know they have better opportunities for education and employment.

  94. Agit8ed

    The views of people like Paul and Seimi regarding sovereignty in Ireland is absolutely nothing to do with the issue of Irish people living in England. It’s a completely irrelevant comparison.

  95. which you now admit to doing of following them around the site shouting IRA IRA at them.

    Not “IRA IRA,” but the outright condemnation of Israel and accusations of acts of barbarism and atrocities when we know that during the IRA “responsible to nobody!” campaigns many innocent people were murdered.
    Were they murdered or were they not Colm?
    If they died as a result of things ‘going wrong’, then Paul should have enough sense to recognise that neither do the Israelis deliberately kill civilians. He should have enough impartiality to recognise that the PLO then Fatah, then Hamas wanted to wipe Israel off the map – regardless of what concessions they made, and that we are where we are and outright condemnation of Israel doesn’t sit well with his avowed support of an armed campaign in which Irish innocents were killed or murdered.
    And lastly, this whole thing was supposed to be executed in the name of the people for a free Republican Ireland!
    But dissent or criticism of methods employed was not allowed.

  96. It’s a completely irrelevant comparison.

    No it’s not.
    Paul keeps going on about the evils committed by our British army. But those soldiers are also British citizens with brothers and sisters and mums and dads.. They paid their taxes and rates like anybody else, went down the pubs etc.

    Paul was happy for those soldiers to be killed for Irish sovereignty!
    “Drive the bloody British out of Ireland!”

    Then, when we’ve done that we’ll come and live amongst you, drink your beer, get work, get homes, raise families.
    Of course there’s a connection!

  97. Agit8ed –

    You’re rambling now.

    Yes and yes, many Irish live in Britain and my mother is Irish. They’ve always been accepted (and, no hubris I hope, I was always astonished at the lack of retribution to the Irish during the height of violent republicanism; not many other peoples would have been so sanguine).

    By the way, many British people live in Ireland and – gosh – they aren’t bombed either.

    You want to defend a guy who comes out with all sorts of crap about the English ‘lied to by their government’, the evil British squaddies shooting ‘noble Republicans’ in the back, using civilians as shield etc. you go ahead.

    Well, no I don’t.

    Look, I say it again: Paul McMahon and Seimi do not accept or defend civilian casualties or murders at the hands of the IRA. In fact this is in contrast to the “well civilians inevitably die in war” BS from neocons with regard to American and Israeli wars. The killing of civilians id not acceptable, and it’s disappointing I have to remind a Christian of this.

  98. Allan@Aberdeen, on August 9th, 2014 at 9:13 PM Said:

    Maybe she was flying somewhere? I hope that she didn’t leave her cell/mobile phone on – one sees ‘No Network Coverage’ after a few thousand feet meaning that calls cannot be made from an aircraft. It’s an experiment which I re-visited this week over Germany.

    Phantom, on August 9th, 2014 at 9:24 PM Said:

    That’s not true- and I’ve proven that. Twice. Real strong signals at 5,000 feet.

    And there is corroboration from people in that industry.

    They won’t work reliably at 5,000 or 10,000 feet – they’re not designed for that use. But this is not a debatable point, except among the controlled demolition types.

    Indeed – real strong signals at 5,000 feet, and that’s what I got too – but not at 30,000ft! “Let’s roll” – as if….

    As of 1.39.55 those pesky Japanese conducted in 2003 an on-camera test using three cell phones, each from different companies, to see where there’s no signal. No service on any above 10,000ft.

  99. Agit8ed, you would say that you recognise Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, yet you’d condemn civilian murders done by IDF men. So your point of view with regard to Israel is not that different from Paul McMahon’s with regard to Irish republicanism.

    But the IRA and Sinn Fein were not a country were they? Why be willing to kill innocent shoppers, or shoot people in the back? Their own people often.

    I have no problem with Irish Republicanism. I too see the sense of a united Ireland, but the fact remains that the IRA had links to various overseas terrorist groups, trained with them, got weaponry from them. They weren’t a bunch of noble heroes fighting ‘only the bad guys”.
    They were answerable to no one! They continue to support these terror groups.
    Goodness knows I’ve posted enough wall paintings that prove that.
    So if Paul supported the principle of the armed struggle, he has no place to condemn Israel as the only aggressor, the only committer of atrocities and acts of barbarism when they are facing terror groups who want to annihilate them.
    Unless he sees it all as a rerun of the British -IRA /Sinn Fein thing.

  100. Agit8ed

    When Irish people come to live and work in Britain they accept they are living in Britain, they don’t insist on Irish sovereignty over parts of the UK. Similarly it does not mean that they should then accept British rule in Ireland. You are introducing an irrelevant issue. This is nothing to do with where people are living but to do with views on how different territories sovereignty is accepted. It is not hypocritical to be an Irish Republican and to also be an Irish immigrant to Britain.

  101. Look, I say it again: Paul McMahon and Seimi do not accept or defend civilian casualties or murders at the hands of the IRA.

    For crying out loud!
    I know that. I accept that.
    So why does Paul continue to come out with condemnations of Israeli atrocities as though Israel deliberately targets innocents? Has he ever said anything even handed, or understanding of Israel’s position? Has he ever followed up the Israeli blogsites I provided?

    He even refused to accept Jewish persecution in Europe (remember Venice?) and rants on about mutilation of Jewish boy babies through circumcision, but has nothing to say about Muslim circumcision.
    As far as I am concerned he doesn’t like Jews, he doesn’t like Israel and he attacks both whenever possible.

  102. Agit8ed

    Paul has condemned the practise of circumcision, NOT ‘Jewish’ circumcision. Unlike Allan he does not attack Jews for being Jews but yes he is entitled to have whatever view he wishes on Israel. Don’t get your knickers in a twist just because he differs markedly from you on the topic of the Gaza conflict.

  103. But the IRA and Sinn Fein were not a country were they?

    So what? Neither were Jewish terrorists prior to the founding of Israel, yet they slaughtered innocents on at least as great a scale as the IRA.

    I too see the sense of a united Ireland, but the fact remains that the IRA had links to various overseas terrorist groups, trained with them, got weaponry from them.

    Because they were/are of a certain liberationist brotherhood. Jewish terrorists made constant and desperate overtures to Nazi Germany in the hope of joining the fight Axis fight against the UK, but where is your condemnation of this?

    They were answerable to no one!

    Likewise Israel, and you probably admire their chutzpah for it.

  104. This is nothing to do with where people are living but to do with views on how different territories sovereignty is accepted. It is not hypocritical to be an Irish Republican and to also be an Irish immigrant to Britain.

    I don’t disagree with you.
    But we’re talking about Paul’s frequent criticisms of the British army and the British government and I have tried to point out to HIM -not you, not Seimi or any other Irish blogger here, that if we were as bad as he says we are Irish people wouldn’t come here.
    I resent my people and my army and my government being represented as evil bastards, when Paul supports the IRA bombing campaign on the mainland, accepts the ‘targeted killings as necessary’ and a Royal Marine Bands barracks as a legitimate target..

    The British Army was ordered over to Northern Ireland to try and keep the peace between the various factions. That it didn’t work too well was not the fault of the soldiers trying to do their job. They didn’t go over there with the sole intention of hunting down the brave boys of the IRA..
    Anyway, bedtime.

  105. There’s a few things need to be set right here:

    Here’s the difference between what the IRA did and what the IDF has done in Gaza.
    The IRA Sinn Fein Republicans (NOT the SDLP) deliberately embarked on an armed campaign.
    Mr McMahon by his own admission supported this, He says there’s no way he would condemn that campaign, yet he also condemns innocent deaths. He also said that the IRA is answerable to no one, and that Sinn Fein didn’t know what the IRA were up to either

    I said that the IRA were answerable to no one except themselves. Who were they answerable to? the electorate? The only people that the IRA were answerable to were they IRA Army Council, no one else. I’ve told you countless times in the past that the IRA and SF were two seperate oraganisatins with sometimes overlapping membership so please stop attempting to perpetuate the lie that I said this or that. If you’re going to quote me at least try to be accurate.

    So whilst he as an individual condemned the deaths of innocent bystanders, but not collaborators, why didn’t Sinn Fein as a separate organisation also CONDEMN these outrages like Paul and demand that the IRA tone it down?

    The key phrase their is as an individual, Seimi’s given you the address of Connolly House, SF’s Belfast HQ. Why not contact them and ask them?

    That link that you supply from Dr Anto, (strange that you’d accept the analysis of someone who served a life sentence in prison for killing someone or maybe that’s yat another thing that you were unaware of?), is incorrect. I knew Bert McCartney and he was a decent bloke but he wasn’t ‘hacked to death by the IRA in a grusome orgy of psychopathic violence’ he was stabbed to death after he got into a bar fight with a group of men, some who were IRA members, in McGenniss’ bar after the career criminal he was with sexually assaulted a woman in the bar when he put his hand up her skirt.

    The article is also incorrect when it infers the bombs in London in 2005 were the work of the IRA. The IRA was busy winding itself up in 2005 and wasn’t bombing anywhere. But there’s also a few things in Dr Anto’s article that you seem to have ommitted:

    Unlike the Al Qaeda strike on New York four years ago, and again on London this month, IRA bombings were only occasionally designed to cause civilian casualties. A recent news report in Belfast illustrated a debate that took place within the IRA in the 1970s on the wisdom of bombing the tube network. The proposal from a senior IRA figure in Belfast was rejected out of hand. The public outcry generated after the Birmingham pub bombs, which saw the IRA indiscriminately slaughter 21 civilian pub revellers, led the bulk of republican leaders to exercise caution against their more bloodthirsty colleagues

    And as you love to compare the IRA with Islamic Jihadists:

    The current crop of London bombers are unlikely to prove so amenable. Unlike the IRA they are theologically driven. Ideologically, Sinn Fein came to embrace the devil and all his works. Al Qaeda and its London bombers are of a different mindset. For those intent on destroying rather than supping with the devil, compromise is anathema

    Whatever the level of collusion between the IRA and SF (denied by Mr McMahon), the issue is that SF never condemned the IRA’s campaign, and most of the evidence is that SF was the political face of the IRA and there was no room for dissent or protest. So that gives the lie to Sinn Fein representing the people

    You shoulf maybe tell that to the hundreds of thousnds that vote for SF?

    On the other hand, however Israel came into being she did so legitimately, and was recognised by the League of Nations and the United Nations, Israel is a bona fide nation

    So that makes all the bombing, the killing of civillians and military, the hanging of kidnapped British soldiers etc okay?

    As I said above, I’ll take no lectures on the morality of violence from someone who mouths weasel words about IRA violence yet refuses to condemn the IDF when they kill innocent civillians.

    Btw, what didja all make of the Israelis pushing Palestinians off the roof?

    What are you trying to demonstrate? that Hamas are a bunch of nasty bastards? Tell us something we don’t know.

    And now it’s your turn

    What do you think of Israel jailing young principled Israelis for having principles?

    What do you think of the British Army Parachute Regiment sniper shooting a fifty yesr old mother of eight so badly that her family weren’t able to identify her in the morgue?

    Are you going to be as vocal over these ‘incidents’?

    Very clear. You believe and support putting on a Ski Mask and killing Women, Children, and Civilians. That statement is a 100% support of Political Gain through Terrorist Murder by anyone. You regret that it was ugly but you believe that killing woman and children was the right thing to do

    What was that phrase you used on the other thread? ah yes, something like; if stupid people play in a combat zone they’re going to be killed (incidentally, quite similar to your partner’s these things happen in such times) does that also apply here or are men who wear oxygen masks and bomb women, children and civilians from 20,000 feet in the air exempt from such sentiments?

    Pete, thank you for your honesty. We may disagree on many things but the integrity of your comment above shines above the disingenuousness of some other contributors.

  106. Jewish terrorists made constant and desperate overtures to Nazi Germany in the hope of joining the fight Axis fight against the UK, but where is your condemnation of this?

    Never heard of it, how can I condemn it? You must mean the terrorist groups like Lehi and the Stern Gang?
    They operated outside of the main Jewish Defence Force the Haganah. The Haganah fought on the side of the British.
    Anyway, if it’s true of course I would condemn it.

  107. What do you think of Israel jailing young principled Israelis for having principles?

    Well done lads for sticking up for your principles, and isn’t it great you lived in a country that taught you to have principles, even if that meant you sometimes end up a prisoner of the State,

  108. Paul was happy for those soldiers to be killed for Irish sovereignty!

    That’s an absolute lie and you’re a liar. I have never ‘been happy’ for the death of any person and I’d ask you to show me where I have or retract that disgusting slur.

    For the record, I don’t mind Agit running around threads being the new Logical Unionist. I actually think it’s quite comical 🙂

  109. Agit8ed

    I thought you were going to bed. Surely you need a lot of sleep to give you the energy to chase Paul all over ATW tomorrow 🙂

  110. What do you think of the British Army Parachute Regiment sniper shooting a fifty yesr old mother of eight so badly that her family weren’t able to identify her in the morgue?
    Are you going to be as vocal over these ‘incidents’?

    Never heard of it.

  111. I thought you were going to bed. Surely you need a lot of sleep to give you the energy to chase Paul all over ATW tomorrow 🙂

    My wife’s away in Birmingham with her sister, so I took the opportunity to do the hall. Only trouble is the smell of paint really knocks my breathing for six, so I have to go outside to get some oxygen.
    Really am going to bed now.
    Goodnight.

  112. He even refused to accept Jewish persecution in Europe (remember Venice?) and rants on about mutilation of Jewish boy babies through circumcision, but has nothing to say about Muslim circumcision

    Yet again that’s more lies and you’re a liar.

    I have never denied Jewish persecution in Europe as a rummage around these threads will confirm:

    http://www.google.com.mx/search?newwindow=1&site=&source=hp&q=Paul+McMahon+Jewish+Ghetto+Venice+ATW&oq=Paul+McMahon+Jewish+Ghetto+Venice+ATW&gs_l=hp.3…3287.21809.0.22381.37.36.0.1.1.0.503.3992.27j7j1j5-1.36.0….0…1c.1.51.hp..12.25.2994.13ni6W6CD_U

    And anytime I’ve spoken about circumcision I’ve condemned it in the context of condeming FGM, tribal scarring etc also.

    Your rectitude regarding the etquiette of debate is in tatters.

  113. Two things I note

    First, that some of those who wag the bony finger of moralism ( which is not morality, not by a long shot ) are themselves lovers of violence against civilians.

    Second, the proprietor of the site has not gone after valued contributors Paul and Seimi wagging the bony finger. He is on friendly terms with them. The lesser intellects, who know the least, and those who have chosen to follow the intellectual backbenchers, could do worse than to follow this fine example.

  114. I reckon Agit8ed will now retaliate by closing comments on his posts.

    Well said, Pete Moore at 9:55 PM. If more people on all sides had that attitude, the bloody Troubles would never have started.

  115. I think that Agit is a good guy, but that he here follows an atrocious example.

    If everyone here shouted past one another like that, what would be the point of having a site?

  116. My wife’s away in Birmingham with her sister, so I took the opportunity to do the hall. Only trouble is the smell of paint really knocks my breathing for six

    Agit

    If solvent-based coatings affect you so much, why do you not buy water-based paints, they only have 4% of solvents in the formula, they are literally odourless and safer to use, they cost about the same also.

    Water-bourne based commercial paints come in all types, gloss, primer, undercoat, emulsion.

    Or wear a sprayers mouth mask, they are very cheap and throwaway items.

    Hope this helps.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1327910/Paint-fumes-trigger-asthma-cancer-Hidden-dangers-decorating.html

  117. Harri

    My first thoughts about water based paints is that they just wouldn’t be as firm and literally adhesive as the solvent based ones. Is that the case ?

    Anyway hopefully Agit will wake up this morning with a clearer head. I don’t think it’s the paint that may be causing his breathing difficulties. If he were to drop that IRA/Israel bone he has been chomping on it would probably help clear his airways 🙂

  118. Colm, on August 10th, 2014 at 9:34 AM Said:

    Harri

    My first thoughts about water based paints is that they just wouldn’t be as firm and literally adhesive as the solvent based ones. Is that the case ?

    Not at all Colm, in fact Ronseal still give 10 year warranty on all there water-based exterior gloss paints.

    The only difference will be, on preperation, the weather has to be almost perfect if painting experiot waterbased materials (they will not, and do not tell you that) the temp is optimum at around 20-23 degrees C, and the relative humidity at around 50-55%,yes, it can be that critical, for adhesion, gloss, and cracking.

    On interior waterbased materials, the same applies but is easier to gauge, but as the saying goes ‘fail to prepare, prepare to fail’, In between coats, a scuff or light sanding will key the surface, and will ensure a glossy finish.

    Harri’s top DIY tips for the day.

    Hope this helps.

    But saying all that, I much prefer solvent-based paints, easier to paint in most conditions, as long as the temps are between 18-28 degrees C, and it’s either not like the Sahara desert humidity and unlike the British summer time and raining cats and dogs 😉

    It’s just a pain in the butt cleaning the brushes in white spirit afterwards.

  119. Well thanks for that Harri. Methinks you know a fair bit about paint. I hate decorating and if I can get away with it a paintbrush will not be found in my hands from one end of the decade to another 😉

  120. good Latex Paint will hold up well under any conditions. The prep work is always the largest part of any painting job. It can take me two days to prepair a room for painting and only 8hrs to do the actual painting.

    I actually enjoy it Colm, I’ve done quite a few jobs even with different faux style finishes.

  121. Good – so if ever you Harri and even Agit8ed if he’s up to it are ever in London you can come around and paint my place. I will sit back with a nice drink and supervise you all. 🙂

  122. Colm, on August 10th, 2014 at 10:21 AM Said:

    Good – so if ever you Harri and even Agit8ed if he’s up to it are ever in London you can come around and paint my place. I will sit back with a nice drink and supervise you all

    It’s a deal, I have a white coat you can borrow to do the supervising in. 🙂

  123. Colm,
    I’d be more than happy to help you out. Some people enjoy practical stuff some don’t. I can’t plaster walls for the life of me, I’m not too hot on electrics either, just the simple stuff like spurs and rewiring. I understand the theory of lighting and power circuits, but get lost in the wiring!
    Plumbing I’m sound, painting and decorating, patios hole digging etc. I think it helps if your Dad was practical because you can learn from him.
    Troll’s right about the painting. It’s all down to prep, and it gets more boring as you get older..
    Once you get to around 50 though, you do start to lose the energy and enthusiasm for these things. That enthusiasm is replaced by dogged determination and a certain stamina. 😉

  124. btw,
    Although the smell kills me, solvent based paints give better more durable results than water based. imo.
    Top tip for brush cleaning:
    Drill a small hole about an inch from the ferrule, stub the paint out of the brush in a glass jar of white spirit (I use a small wire brush as well); then pass a piece of stiffish wire through the hole and suspend the brush with the bristles still in the white spirit.
    All the sediment falls to the bottom.
    I always have an old towel which I use to dry the brushes on afterwards.
    Cool eh?

  125. Noel Cunningham, on August 10th, 2014 at 10:30 AM Said:

    Has nobody thought of whitewashing pallywood?

    Not possible, Blair, Brown, Milliband, Cameron and all their cronies at Wastemonster have dried up all the past, present and future stocks of the stuff 😉

  126. Once you get to around 50 though, you do start to lose the energy and enthusiasm for these things

    My wife does not appear too .. unfortunately 😉

  127. I’m just coming back (briefly) to this thread, and a couple of things strike me.

    I second (or third or fourth) the comments made regarding Pete Moore’s 9.55 and subsequent comments. They are honest and contain no bullshit or wriggle room. To paraphrase him (and he states he is an ex-soldier) – one can be totally opposed to the actions of the IRA without seeing the logic and indeed honorable intentions behind the Republican movement.

    As Phantom pointed out, David Vance does not wave a ‘bony finger’ at either myself or Paul. He rightly criticises the actions of a political organisation which he fundamentally disagrees with (SF), and condemns outright the actions of a paramilitary organisation which he finds morally repugnant (IRA), yet he gives two Republican/Nationalists permission two write and contribute on his blog. And it is his blog, Troll, not yours, so enough of the ‘We put up with your feelings regarding that subject…’ please. Plenty here have to put up with your constant calls for the mass extermination of civilians in order to push the US agenda. Irish Republicans and Nationalists on this site are not some from of underlife which are tolerated by the ubermensch, nor is there any collective ‘we’ on ATW, certainly not one that you are part of. ATW is made up of individuals, who sometimes agree on some subjects, but usually split into various factions. Funnily enough, many of these factions recently have had people on one side who condemn mass murder, and you and a few others on the other side who excuse it, or actively call for it.

    Agit8ed – I hold no grudge against you, nor do I dislike you in any way. I hope you know that. I also hope that you do not think that I was, as Troll put it, ‘picking on you’. I hope that you can see that I was merely getting tired of the constant references to IRA and SF in threads which had no place for them. I also hope you read back over the many threads in which Paul’s views have been aired, and see for yourself that at no point did he condone the murders of civilians by the IRA – quite the opposite in fact, and that you sort that out with Paul himself, perhaps by way of an apology and retraction? It’s up to you.

    To all – It really cheers me up to see a thread, which had tumbled into the usual in-fighting, be saved by so many sensible voices (Colm, Noel etc). Well done to all.

    Now, back to your paint discussion. Might I add – it’s no surprise Troll is so good at painting, considering the broad brushes he employs 😉

  128. Damned edit function

    ‘one can be totally opposed to the actions of the IRA without seeing and still see the logic and indeed honorable intentions behind the Republican movement.’

  129. Now, back to your paint discussion. Might I add – it’s no surprise Troll is so good at painting

    Yeah, but only painting by numbers 😉

  130. Now, back to your paint discussion. Might I add – it’s no surprise Troll is so good at painting

    Yeah, but only painting by numbers 😉

  131. As long as the numbers only go up to 10, or else he’ll have to take his boots off… 😉

  132. To all – It really cheers me up to see a thread, which had tumbled into the usual in-fighting, be saved by so many sensible voices (Colm, Noel etc). Well done to all.

    I want to repeat that. The sensible level headedness displayed by most on this thread shows ATW at its best.

    Just as well you started the theme about slovent based paints Harri. We can gloss over the cracks until the next time that Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde do exactly the same thing all over again

  133. Just as well you started the theme about slovent based paints Harri. We can gloss over the cracks until the next time that Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde do exactly the same thing all over again

    Well, some maybe more useless information, ‘glossing over cracks’ waterbourne topcoats ‘gloss’ has a chink in it’s armour, it has next to zero ‘filling qualities’, where solvent based material really will ‘gloss over cracks’

    All to do with the resin, pigment and the binder ‘talc or wax’ they do not as some have noticed preferring to use solvent base ‘ cross link’ (harden) in the same manner.

    Note:

    Might come to be usseful on pub quiz night 😉

  134. Seimi/Paul

    Take a chill pill, I never told anyone they can’t comment, and I never said you can’t champion the causes that you feel passionate about.

    I defended a friend with an honest comment that didn’t insult anyone or call anyone any names. I even agreed that the anniversary that was pointed was wrong in the actions that took place.

    I also didn’t here your cry against the term WE when it used against me.

    You’re being very selective in your outrage, and praise.

    If you choose to see it as anything other than a defense of A8 you do so through your own interpretation of what I said, not from the content of it.

  135. Troll, where have I said any of that stuff that you’re talking about above?

    The only comment I made to you was:

    What was that phrase you used on the other thread? ah yes, something like; if stupid people play in a combat zone they’re going to be killed (incidentally, quite similar to your partner’s these things happen in such times) does that also apply here or are men who wear oxygen masks and bomb women, children and civilians from 20,000 feet in the air exempt from such sentiments?

    Nothing else.

    BTW, I thought you’de finished commenting on this thread?

  136. if grouping you with Seimi was wrong I apologize, your Jekyll and Hyde comment I thought was in support of what he was saying right above it.

    I was done, but since my comments were portrayed as a call for people not to comment I wanted it on the public record that the interpretation of my comment in that matter was factually incorrect.

    It would be like if I just now claimed your comment was a call for me not to comment.

    Which of course like mine it wasn’t.

  137. Agit8ed – I hold no grudge against you, nor do I dislike you in any way. I hope you know that. I also hope that you do not think that I was, as Troll put it, ‘picking on you’. I hope that you can see that I was merely getting tired of the constant references to IRA and SF in threads which had no place for them. I also hope you read back over the many threads in which Paul’s views have been aired, and see for yourself that at no point did he condone the murders of civilians by the IRA – quite the opposite in fact, and that you sort that out with Paul himself, perhaps by way of an apology and retraction? It’s up to you.

    I was at church this morning, pub lunch with in laws and a couple of hours akip this afternoon…

    I am so glad you don’t dislike me Seimi.
    It makes ne feel somehow an accepted and worthy member of the ATW knitting circle, sitted near the tumbrils – but not too near that they get splattered with aristocratic blood… 😉
    I don’t feel picked on by anyone. If anything I have been picking up your friend on what I perceive as hypocrisy and bias.
    I am puzzled that no one seems to understand what I have been getting at, except perhaps the Troll. Not even Colm quite sees it, so I have obviously failed to get my point across.

    It’s nothing personal. I don’t dislike Paul.

    I do think that there is a disparity between his support for an IRA armed campaign and even though he rightly condemns the murder of innocent victims he still defends the tactics.
    Anyone looking back over the years would have to admit that he has passionately defended the whole IRA Sinn Fein Republican movement. In fact I can guarantee that any thread to do with the situation in Northern Ireland will see Paul jumping in with his viewpoint defending his support of Sinn Fein IRA. More than you ever have.
    True or not true?
    Now please understand, I don’t have a problem with the aims of the Republican movement. I do have a problem with the cowardly and cruel and vicious methods used by the Sinn Fein IRA tactics used.

    And here is the crux of the matter.
    Paul is entitled to defend the armed campaign ’til the cows come home, but when we are discussing the State of Israel, the existence of Israel, Israel and Gaza I take exception to his blanket condemnation of Israel in every way.
    I don’t see an honourable consistency between his excuses for the IRA armed campaign and Hamas’s rocket campaign against Israel, the tactics of using civlians as shields, storing weapons and rockets near or in schools and the hospital, and their stated determination to wipe Israel off the map.
    He cannot bring himself to accept that Israel has a right to safe borders or that every country returning fire from an enemy ends up hitting/killing innocents. He refers to the unfortunate killing of four boys as an atrocity etc. etc. He has nothing to say about the tunnels under the borders, their intended use being to kill Israelis, not provide safe shelter for their women and children. I could go on but there’s no point.

    That’s all this is about. A man who supports the armed campaign of the IRA, goes on and on about the evil British Army in Northern Ireland and even accepts a bombing campaign in public places that everyone knows has to kill indiscriminately. There is no bravery or honour in that.

    So of course he is entitled to say whatever he likes, but it doesn’t stop me comparing his support for these real atrocities with a blanket condemnation of Israel.
    There is nothing to apologise about from me to him or him to me.
    The best you or anyone else here will get out of me is that I will not bring up IRA Sinn Fein in posts about Israel again.
    I can’t state my position any clearer. I have tried my best to do explain it, and this is the end of the matter.
    No hard feelings.
    No personal vendetta.
    No personal animosity.
    Just the same opinion.

  138. I was at church this morning, pub lunch with in laws and a couple of hours akip this afternoon…

    Heathen 😉

  139. I am puzzled that no one seems to understand what I have been getting at, except perhaps the Troll.

    Sound like you need to reassess what you’re getting at.

  140. Heathen 😉
    lol!

    I am puzzled that no one seems to understand what I have been getting at, except perhaps the Troll.
    Sound like you need to reassess what you’re getting at.

    That’s a bit pompous Pete. Even for you.

  141. //I am puzzled that no one seems to understand what I have been getting at, except perhaps the Troll.//

    That doesnt puzzle me at all 🙂

  142. The Troll, on August 10th, 2014 at 8:42 PM Said:

    Noel tying your shoes is like doing a Rubics Cube to you isn’t it?

    ‘Rubic’ that sounds Jewish?

    It must be dodgy 😉

  143. A Rubics cube has 9 colored squares on each side of the cube ..

    But if it is Jewish .. to you, 8 😉

    The last time I was near Golders Green in London the sign said ‘Golders Green 4 and a half miles, but to you … 4’ 😉

    Okay, again I am am heading for that door and collecting my hat and coat on the way out.

  144. Agit8ed

    Of course, you were in London. The greatest living experience anyone can have 🙂

  145. Golders Green is a North London neighbourhood with a big Jewish community. In fact it’s not so far from Stanmore, which also has a large Jewish community, which is where this fella comes from.

    I have to say I thought that post would have attracted more comments, you lazy swine.

  146. Take a chill pill, I never told anyone they can’t comment, and I never said you can’t champion the causes that you feel passionate about.

    No-one said you said any of that. I was referring to this:

    We put up with your feelings regarding that subject learn to put up with ours.

    Who is this ‘We’ you refer to? You mean everyone else on the site? Are you like some Borg Collective now? Wise up.

    I defended a friend with an honest comment that didn’t insult anyone or call anyone any names.

    Your ‘friend’ didn’t need any defending. I wasn’t attacking his stance. I was complaining about him inserting IRA into every thread, a la Logical Unionist. It is, I repeat, boring and repetitive. This is why I said that not only had you got a hold of the wrong end of the stick, you were holding the wrong stick. Can you see that?

    I even agreed that the anniversary that was pointed was wrong in the actions that took place.

    Good, although that had nothing to do with what I wrote to Agit8ed. However, I can see how I linked the two things when I shouldn’t have, so I apologize to Agit8ed for doing so.

    I also didn’t here your cry against the term WE when it used against me.

    Well that’s because I was part of the group of people who think your scorched earth policy regarding civilians is morally wrong. That said, I have defended you on this site before, most notably when others here brought up the whole TrollAid thing. On several occasions. I don’t just run with the gang when it comes to criticising people, Troll. I pick my fights, based on my own background, knowledge and moral compass.

    You’re being very selective in your outrage, and praise.

    How so? Show me where I’m being selective, other than looking at the facts available to me, and taking a stance for or against. In the case of Gaza, I am against, Israel, for the Gazan civilians, and against those within Hamas who hold their own people’s lives so cheaply. In the case of NI, I am for ordinary Republicans, Nationalists, Unionists and Loyalists who just wish for normality in their lives, against the British establishment which facilitated and encouraged the situation for years upon years, for the ideals for which the IRA and others fought, but totally against the murder of civilians. Is that too selective for you?

    If you choose to see it as anything other than a defense of A8 you do so through your own interpretation of what I said, not from the content of it.

    It is precisely the content of it that I take issue with. It’s good that you defend A8, whether he needs it or not. You were, however, defending him for the wrong thing.

    if grouping you with Seimi was wrong I apologize, your Jekyll and Hyde comment I thought was in support of what he was saying right above it.

    Am I in a group now? What part of what I wrote before that did you not agree with? Was it this?-

    …but since my comments were portrayed as a call for people not to comment I wanted it on the public record that the interpretation of my comment in that matter was factually incorrect.

    Who said that? Me? ‘Fraid not. I didn’t say that at all. I was alluding to the fact that you had created a ‘We’, which seemed to benevolently ‘tolerate’ an Irish Republican viewpoint, and I was merely pointing out that it’s not your blog to make that type of call. I know you treat it like your own personal blog at times, but it isn’t.

    It would be like if I just now claimed your comment was a call for me not to comment.
    Which of course like mine it wasn’t.

    Nor was mine. I hope all of that is clear now.

    Agit8ed

    The best you or anyone else here will get out of me is that I will not bring up IRA Sinn Fein in posts about Israel again.

    Thank you. That was all I asked for!

  147. The Troll, on August 10th, 2014 at 9:16 PM Said:

    don’t let it hit you on the way out

    Oy vey !

  148. Seimi,
    You’re a decent man and I would never deliberately offend you. I like that you think for yourself as do I.

  149. Seimi

    no the “we” thing referred to something else entirely. (did you feel the breeze as it passed over your head?)

    However while you continue to obsess and besmirch others who disagree with your views, or make a reference you don’t like I’m done with it.

    that’s ok though you keep chewing the same bones. Some dogs just can’t let go, me I’ve just pissed on it and am moving on. 🙂

  150. Agit.

    Were Seimi and yourself not intended to meet at some point?

    Or was it mairin?

    I take it, it did not happen.

    It never ends well.

  151. Agit.

    Were Seimi and yourself not intended to meet at some point?

    That’s pretty negative Harri. I think that in spite of differing opinions we would like each other, and I base that on the way some here take pains to try and make themselves understood…. 😉
    I would join a meetup at a neutral venue like a pub, because after getting over the shock of how ugly you all are I would know you’ve all got something to say for yourselves and we’d start talking and getting to know each other as people.

  152. I would join a meetup at a neutral venue like a pub, because after getting over the shock of how ugly you all are

    Well, you could all talk amongst yourselves, and I will entertain the ladies then 😉

  153. no the “we” thing referred to something else entirely. (did you feel the breeze as it passed over your head?)
    However while you continue to obsess and besmirch others who disagree with your views, or make a reference you don’t like I’m done with it.

    Great answer, Troll. Insulting, without actually making a point, much like a lot of your comments. Would you care to ‘enlighten’ me as to what you were talking about then?

    that’s ok though you keep chewing the same bones. Some dogs just can’t let go, me I’ve just pissed on it and am moving on. 🙂

    Somebody had the bolts in his neck tightened…

    Harri

    Were Seimi and yourself not intended to meet at some point?

    I had mentioned at one stage the possibility of holidaying in Agit’s part of the country this summer. Had this happened, I would have tried to make it to where Agit resides, and break him out for the afternoon, had we been able to slip past Nurse Cratchett.

    Unfortunately (for Agit8ed), I went to France instead, and Agit had to content himself with staring out the window at the trees, as he does every afternoon 😉

  154. Agit, are you the really short one in the front?

    Or the one in the middle ? 😉

    I’m the one just out of picture..

  155. Unfortunately (for Agit8ed), I went to France instead, and Agit had to content himself with staring out the window at the trees, as he does every afternoon

    But, you did not go to Paris, or any of it’s suburbs. So it’s hardly surprising you did not not witness any ‘muslim hordes’

    I have worked in Paris and around the surrounding area (Parisian Crepes Claremont) and trust me, there are ‘muslim and African’ hordes.

    Your eyes only see what they want you to see.

  156. A8
    no but one of the other managers that I worked with at US Air did, not that actual one, but it’s almost a duplicate. Except his was next to this huge bar b que pit. He called the barbq his fire hazard….

  157. Seimi.
    I would be pleased to meet you and your good lady and chew the fat. I never shy away from difficult subjects, but sometimes you have to establish a sense of trust and respect before tackling anything controversial. But I would like to hear your own experiences one day and how they affected you.
    As long as you aren’t a noticeable twitcher.
    That would be embarrassing.. 😉

  158. But, you did not go to Paris, or any of it’s suburbs. So it’s hardly surprising you did not not witness any ‘muslim hordes’

    Your eyes only see what they want you to see.

    Not in this case. My eyes aren’t that good, Harri. I wanted to see the hordes in Paris, but I was hundreds of miles away.

  159. I would be pleased to meet you and your good lady and chew the fat.

    Likewise.

    As long as you aren’t a noticeable twitcher.

    Ah. How noticeable is ‘noticeable?…

  160. Not in this case. My eyes aren’t that good, Harri. I wanted to see the hordes in Paris, but I was hundreds of miles away.

    I know, otherwise, unless you spent your entire holiday walking around Paris, or any of it’s suburbs bumping into lamposts, you would have seen them with your own eyes, and realised that those ‘Mulsim hordes’ really do exist.

    Paris is like London by the way, it’s way overpriced, it’s a crap-hole of multi-cultured failure, but it’s somewhere you just have to visit to confirm it.

  161. I really must get some shuteye now, but the ‘Ice cave trail’ it takes over 5 hours to complete point to point, a couple of years ago before i came to my senses (the heart attack helped) I actually managed to drink a whole bottle of Jura whiskey, and still managed to finish the course ahead of my girls and wife.

    And still sober 😉

  162. Is that why you’re back there? To see what all you missed last time? Like the Ice cave itself? 😉

  163. Seimi, on August 10th, 2014 at 10:50 PM Said:

    Is that why you’re back there? To see what all you missed last time? Like the Ice cave itself?

    I have absolutely no idea why they want to go there again, it hasn’t changed in millions of years, it’s hardly likely to be any different from last year.

    They just won’t listen 😉

  164. You probably broke all yours long ago.
    But it’s not your fault. Twitching is an involuntary action often resulting in tea splattered wallpaper..

  165. I really shouldn’t bite, however;

    I am puzzled that no one seems to understand what I have been getting at, except perhaps the Troll

    If there was ever a comment on ATW that spoke volumes beyong its words it’s that one.

    I do think that there is a disparity between his support for an IRA armed campaign and even though he rightly condemns the murder of innocent victims he still defends the tactics

    And the disparity I see is that your lectures on the morality of violence don’t square with your refusal to condemn soldiers when the kill innocents and dismissal of civilian killings as ‘these things happen in such times’

    Anyone looking back over the years would have to admit that he has passionately defended the whole IRA Sinn Fein Republican movement. In fact I can guarantee that any thread to do with the situation in Northern Ireland will see Paul jumping in with his viewpoint defending his support of Sinn Fein IRA

    True to an extent, I have, and will continue to defend the principle of armed struggle as the correct response at the time but my defense of the armed struggle is not unconditional and I will condemn some IRA actions with the samr vigour that I will defend the armed struggle. You don’t seem to have the capacity to do this when it’s IDF military killing innocents.

    I’m also pretty quick at at commenting on Irish threads, with the exception of being second only to yourself.

    Now please understand, I don’t have a problem with the aims of the Republican movement. I do have a problem with the cowardly and cruel and vicious methods used by the Sinn Fein IRA tactics used

    That’s okay, you’re entitled to your opinion. It’s just a pity that you seem to have no problem with ‘cowardly and cruel and vicious methods’ used by others.

    Paul is entitled to defend the armed campaign ’til the cows come home, but when we are discussing the State of Israel, the existence of Israel, Israel and Gaza I take exception to his blanket condemnation of Israel in every way.
    I don’t see an honourable consistency between his excuses for the IRA armed campaign and Hamas’s rocket campaign against Israel, the tactics of using civlians as shields, storing weapons and rockets near or in schools and the hospital, and their stated determination to wipe Israel off the map

    This is yet another lie to add to your ever growing list, look over the various threads and you’ll see I’ve consistently referred to Hamas as a bunch of nasty vicious bastards etc.

    I condemn unjustified and unprovoked violence against Israeli civillians

    I really can’t make it any clearer than that. Now maybe you’ll have some ‘honourable consistency’ and condemn IDF violence against the civillian population of Gaza?

    He cannot bring himself to accept that Israel has a right to safe borders or that every country returning fire from an enemy ends up hitting/killing innocents. He refers to the unfortunate killing of four boys as an atrocity etc. etc. He has nothing to say about the tunnels under the borders, their intended use being to kill Israelis, not provide safe shelter for their women and children. I could go on but there’s no point

    See my paragraph above. The reason I refer to the ‘unfortunate killing’ of four little kids etc is because the fact that more than 1,500 people have been killed in Gaza in the past few weeks – the absolute overwhelming majority of them civillians including women and children. For me that’s a much more pressing issue than the few dozen tunnels that you continuously attempt to shift the focus to.

    That’s all this is about. A man who supports the armed campaign of the IRA, goes on and on about the evil British Army in Northern Ireland

    Anything I’ve said about the British Army on ATW has benn 100% fact. The fact that you refuse to see your poster boys in a different light from the contrived image that you’ve been fed is a problem you have to address yourself.

    And even accepts a bombing campaign in public places that everyone knows has to kill indiscriminately. There is no bravery or honour in that.

    Classic piece of hypocriscy;

    Returning fire from an enemy ends up hitting/killing innocents.

    Who said that? Is there any ‘bravery or honour in that’?

    So of course he is entitled to say whatever he likes, but it doesn’t stop me comparing his support for these real atrocities with a blanket condemnation of Israel

    You compare away sunshine, it just makes that hypocriscy hole that you’re digging for yourself even deeper and the fact that with the exception of the odd psychopath you’ve been castigated by most commentatore on this thread, even those who vehemently disagree with my position, should tell you something.

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