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Yesterday I enjoyed one of the great treats of the day after Thanksgiving.  A leftover Turkey sandwich with stuffing, ham and cranberry sause.  I don’t belive in American exceptionalism, but I sure do believe in an exceptional sandwich.

Which leads me to the leftover nation when it comes to Europe, namely Turkey.  Called the sick man of Europe this nation of over 70 million is situated for sucess, but has often not succeded.  A member of NATO, yet with a human rights record that would make a South American dictatorship blush.  It has a tradition of secularism, but seems handicapped by the most obvious thing which can’t seem to be mentioned – namely an Islamic movement.  Note I don’t say radical Islamic movement, because Islam as a political force and worldview is simply bad enough.  I distinguish the practice of religion from the imposition of a religion.

The current leader of Turkey would like to turn the clock back on human rights.  This may not be spoken out loud outside of Turkey, but is patently obvious to Turkey’s secularists who correctly see a danger when it presents itself.  Yet secularists in Turkey have not captured the attention of Western Media who would rather focus on fantasy oppression in Ferguson and elsewhere.

Turkey could be a vital ally against Islamic movements, but until we support the secularists there,  Turkey is going to be of little help abroad.

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36 thoughts on “Leftover Turkey

  1. Yes, Erdogan said just a few days ago that men and women aren’t equal – “You cannot put women and men on an equal footing … it’s against nature”.

    It wasn’t reported whether he had been reading ATW.

    Still, I don’t agree they are little use against the likes of ISIS. The Turkish army is one of the most formidable in the region and has very relevant experience pursuing the PKK across the hills of Anatolia. In fact, they are probably potentially at least the best bet the west has in terms of a regular army fighting the real madmen.
    The West has also not insisted on its allies being angels in the past, and I don’t see why it should start now.
    The Turks are handicapped more by political complexities like the relationship to the Kurds etc., but if they feel directly threatened, they may enter the fray and bring it to a happy conclusion.

  2. The West has often had little choice in the human rights records of allies. That doesn’t mean we can’t support improvement. The attempts of Turkey’s current leader to push Islam is bad for Turkey and bad for the World.

  3. “…Which leads me to the leftover nation when it comes to Europe, namely Turkey. ”

    hahahaha….good one

  4. Erdogan has been very successful in running the economy especially compared to the government he replaced, and it’s a genuine success not a Putin?Chavez style riding of a commodities boom, which has given him a lot of room to maneuver on religious issues and other nuttiness.

    The secular Kemalist governments were preferable to Erdogan but they were still horrendous on human rights and hopeless corrupt with extensive links to organised crime- particularly heroin trafficking- throughout Europe.

  5. Turkey was an essential ally throughout the entire Cold War period.

    Now, I don’t trust them at all.

    They could have been a part of the solution to current Middle East problems.

    They may like a continued state of affairs where Kurds and Isis bleed each other. Turks like it when Kurdish blood is shed.

  6. since you don’t belive in American exceptionalism why would we need to help them?

    Using your view there is nothing we have to offer anyone let alone Turkey. Using your beliefs our help is not necessary. All nation are the same.

    So screw them, they have they same abilities as the US. Let them and all nations grow or suffer by their own choices.

    All are equal, then all should carry their own weight.

  7. ?

    No one was talking about ” helping Turkey ” or of all countries being the same

    I was speaking of Turkey being undependable now

  8. not you Phantom Mahons.

    He said the US was not exceptional and then said Turkey could be a vital ally against Islamic movements, but until we support the secularists there, Turkey is going to be of little help abroad.

    My question is if they are no different than us why do we need to support them?

    All nations are equal according to Mahons, therefore they need no support from any outside nation.

  9. Turkey can’t decide whether it wants to be part of the West or not

    They used to be a pillar of NATO

    Erdogan has stepped away from Turkey’s secular legacy, which is bad for everyone.

  10. If you don’t see any exceptionalism in one Nation over another than all nations are capable of doing everything for themselves.

    My point is that Mahons view is nonsense, you can’t have it both ways.

    If all nations are equal than each nation can solve their own problems, whether they be religious harmony, feeding their populations, defending all members of their population, providing healthcare for their population etc etc.

    If you refuse to recognize the exceptionalism of one nation over another than that is the position you’re taking.

  11. I agree Phantom that Turkey has gone down the wrong path. I also believe that the US has an obligation and a duty to help people in every nation, but I believe in American Exceptionalism, so I believe we have something to offer.

    Mahons said he doesn’t believe we are better than any other nation.

    If we aren’t better we have nothing to offer to improve anyone’s situation anywhere.

  12. Troll

    What are you on about ? Are you claiming that unless you view the USA as the most close to perfect nation on earth then you cannot be allowed to criticise any other country. If that is your opinion then you are the one talking nonsense.

  13. The concept of “American exceptionalism” (not “US”) is attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville, who coined it in praise of isolationaism and distance from European affairs.

    That war-loving neocon drones parrot the phrase without having the slightest idea of its provenance is always amusing.

  14. The attempts of Turkey’s current leader to push Islam is bad for Turkey and bad for the World.

    Totally agree. But Turkey has no interest in seeing a Caliphate emerge in its former empire. And it has a huge army which will be decisive if it is used against the head-choppers.

  15. no Colm that is not what I’m saying.

    I’m saying that there is such a thing as american exceptionalism.

    I’m not saying we are anything near perfect, but we do do a lot of things better than most nations and therefore we have the ability to help.

    To not recognize that is just silly.

  16. Peter –

    I’d have a few glasses of vin rouge tonight if I were Wenger. Top four is still on although Chelsea are over the hills and far away for everyone (in part because he inextricably decided not to buy back the best midfielder in the world).

    The January transfer market must be productive and a positive second half of the season a must. For the first time in 16 years, CL qualification is not enough.

  17. Peter
    Just a question. You said that Turkey has no interest in seeing a Caliphate emerge in its former empire.

    Are you basing that on anything current? When Turkeys millitary insured what type of government the nation had that would be an accurate statement.

    Is that still the case today?

  18. I’m saying that there is such a thing as american exceptionalism.

    I’m not saying we are anything near perfect, but we do do a lot of things better than most nations and therefore we have the ability to help.

    As someone just said on these here parts, the concept of “American exceptionalism” is attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville, who coined it in praise of isolationaism and distance from European affairs.

    That war-loving neocon drones parrot the phrase without having the slightest idea of its provenance is always amusing.

  19. Troll

    Where has either Phantom or Mahons indicated that the USA has nothing positive to offer the rest of the world ?

  20. Pete

    Just because a phrase was first coined by a writer to encapsulate one particular phenomenon does not mean that it cannot be used to describe another.

  21. Is that still the case today?

    Troll

    Turkey is split between conservatives like Erdogan and his followers and secularists who want Turkey to look west. But there is no possibility that Turkey could ever endorse IS. That is an Arab pestilence and the Turks are not Arabs.

  22. The idea of “exceptionalism” is absurd. Every nation is, to a greater or lesser degree, the product of different circumstances and forces that shaped it. All are in that sense exceptions, although some (such as Turkey) are more exceptional than others.
    The US is exceptional in its wealth and certain historic developments, such as that it was never invaded and was one of the last countries in the developed world to get rid of slavery; the religious right, the quality of its popular music and regular race riots.
    But even the factors that make the US exceptional are really not qualitatively different to factors found in many other countries.

  23. Tradition/foody question….the only time I ever had (should say offered because I stopped eating wee piggies at a very young age (not my cuppa) with turkey on a holiday was in Ireland. I’m not talking about bacon mind but a slice of ham with turkey….is that an Irish thing? An American thing? A European thing? Turkey on Thanksgiving and Christmas was the norm when I grew up…ham might be a dinner thing now and again but not a holiday meal. I was told by a host in Belfast that she always cooked her turkey on a slab of ham.

  24. hey Noel according to the British Home Secretary there are 13,000 people in slavery in the UK. you lot are regressing

  25. we would add a Ham to the feast christmas but not thanksgiving.

    you ever been to someone of italion decent house fo diner christmas eve and christmas day mairin? It’s like a food orgy on christmas and xmas eve is the feast of 7 fishes

  26. Christmas Eve Italian dinners are THE BEST….I would befriend strange Italian men on the streets if I didn’t have an invite…:-)

  27. A friend of mine married a girl from Sicily and I went to the wedding in Palermo. The wedding dinner had sixteen courses!!

  28. Peter any response to the information that an attack by IZZY was launched from Turkey and whether or not it effects your belief that they couldn’t be supportive of them?

  29. Peter still no comment about Turkey allowing the IZZY to attack the Kurds from within Turkey?

  30. you see 3 days have gone by with a direct honest nonhostile question to someone on this site with no answer.

    Yet you are all such great debaters…. lol

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