96 1 min 7 yrs

The head of the Paris march today –

paris-march-politi_3161209c

As well as Cameron, Holland and Merkel, each of whom are quite intolerant of free speech, the caravan includes prime ministers, presidents and ministers from NATO(!), the EU, Turkey, Egypt, Ukraine (Puppet Poroshenko, whose forces continue to murder oppress and civilians), the USA, Russia, Israel, Mali, Gabon, Niger, Benin, Algeria, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Qatar, the UAE and Bahrain.

Really, this lot are marching in defence of free speech and press freedoms. I’d march them off to The Hague. This bunch will tolerate murder, as long as it’s state-funded, and the suppression of free speech all day long.

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96 thoughts on “IS THIS A JOKE?

  1. All or nearly all of the named countries have suffered from muslim terror.

    If this most recent muslim atrocity leads to a much more muscular response on the part of some countries then that is a good thing.

    This is an existential threat, which will quickly get much worse unless there is an exceptionally decisive, coordinated, counter terrorism effort worldwide.

  2. Pete,

    This is all a part of the latest global pantomime, as visualised and produced by our bunch of ‘sad sack’ leaders. Being the bunch of kids that we know them to be, they expect, that as usual, this current panto will have a happy ending, how surprised they will be when this time the final act will one of mayhem and disaster and the Wicked Witch emerges triumphant!…

  3. From various news items it seems that this pantomime’s ‘Prince Charming’ has already made his exit. It appears that Obama was unable to make this once in a lifetime chorus line, due apparently to a prior appointment.

    Apparently a screen test for his next starring role in a production nominally titled ‘To golf or not to golf!’, and nothing to do with his support for the villains in this panto!

  4. http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/01/08/wikileaks-jewish-pro-censorship-lobby-legitimized-attacks-on-charlie-hebdo/

    France’s notorious Hate Speech Laws, however, are not designed to just protect Jews.

    – France’s principal piece of hate speech legislation is the Press Law of 1881, in which Section 24 criminalizes incitement to racial discrimination, hatred, or violence on the basis of one’s origin or membership (or non-membership) in an ethic, national, racial, or religious group. A criminal code provision likewise makes it an offense to engage in similar conduct via private communication. –

    There are numerous instances of French citizens, including actress Brigitte Bardot and even legitimate presidential contenders, finding themselves hauled before French courts and convicted of speech crimes against Muslims.

    I like that term ‘speech crime’. It seems to happen in the France of the free very often, especially if your name is Faurisson. Private communication isn’t private, and can get you jailed in France if the authorities don’t like what’s in it – that’s the reality.

  5. Whoops, I see the Saudi Ambassador was there too. You really cannot make it up.

    Phantom, this isn’t a block against islamic terror. Strewth, a fair number of the countries represented fund it and provide ideological backing!

    This bunch are there to pretend that they’re now Charlie. (Best not mention then that it recently sacked a staffer for anti-semitism.)

    From Cameron’s government, which smashed up The Guardian’s computers, through Turkey and Egypt, which jail more journalists than anywhere else, to the Saudis, which is Terror Central, none of these clowns have the slightest moral business associating themselves with liberty.

  6. It gets worse:

    http://www.thelocal.fr/20150108/charlie-hebdo-le-pen-french-far-right-barred-from-national-unity-march

    Despite the French president calling for “unity” in the light of the Charlie Hebdo massacre, an almighty row broke out on Thursday after the National Front were not invited to Sunday’s Republican rally.

    For her part Marine Le Pen was furious that the party, who came out on top in the European elections last May, was “excluded” from the march.

  7. Disgraceful that Russia is included, given the frequent murders of journalist under the Putin regime.

  8. Still, at least Putin had the grace not to attend in person. That would have been a needless provocation.

  9. Some of the Kremlin’s street enforcers have been protesting outside the French embassy in Moscow in support of the massacre so it would have been appalling if he had appeared.

  10. The Saudi Arabians have recently started enforcing a sentence of 1000 lashes against a liberal blogger and Egypt has jailed someone for admitting he was an atheist of Facebook. If the Hebdo staff had been in any of those countries they’d have already been imprisoned or dead before any terrorists could touch them.

  11. And Gabon whose president recently closed some satirical newspapers for mocking the president.

    I suppose it’s good that all these people feel the need to pretend to object to the attack on Charlie Hebdo.

  12. Some of the Kremlin’s street enforcers have been protesting outside the French embassy in Moscow in support of the massacre so it would have been appalling if he had appeared.

    That doesn’t pass the smell test. Ross, do you have a link?

  13. Certainly. The leader of the protests Dmitri Enteo has previous led violent attacks on opponents of Putin such as Pussy Riot and Tweeted in rsponse to the Parisian murders:

    On Xmas, God justly punished #CharlieHebdo for having blasphemed against Xmas.

  14. Erm, a single tweet, reported in a CIA front mag, doesn’t constitute a protest. Sounds like you’re overplaying things somewhat.

    24 year-old Dmitriy Enteo’s (real name Tsorionov) path to salvation has not been straightforward. The son of a university professor, he was previously a Hindu, a Buddhist, and a devotee of trance music. The pseudonym Enteo was derived from entheogen, a member of a group of psychodelic plants, such as peyote, used by shamans.

    And clearly this “leader” of “the Kremlin’s street enforcers” is just a sad nutcase.

  15. Russian reaction will of course be mixed. They will condemn the violence, having their own issues with Islip fundamentalirts. But of course Russia’s lack of press freedom aligns them more with the fundamentalists.

  16. Pete- the link I gave you and that you asked for shows the protest, why ask for a link if you won’t read it?

    And clearly this “leader” of “the Kremlin’s street enforcers” is just a sad nutcase.

    So why has he never faced legal consequences for attacking liberal protesters if he isn’t backed by the Kremlin?

  17. the EU, Turkey, Egypt, Ukraine, the USA, Russia, Israel, Mali, Gabon, Niger, Benin, Algeria, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Qatar, the UAE and Bahrain.

    Of all these, there are perhaps two governments which put the interests of its people first, though in different ways. The rest, including the gulag government of the US, are most decidely opposed to the interests of their people. In France, ‘speech crime’ is rampant and the biggest political party was excluded from the ‘march of national unity’ – absurdity follows absurdity.

  18. //the link I gave you and that you asked for shows the protest, //

    Eh, no, it doesn’t.

    You said that some of “the Kremlin’s street enforcers have been protesting outside the French embassy in Moscow in support of the massacre”. According to your link, nobody protested in support of the massacre. One religious nutter protested against blasphemy of Christ in the magazine; he also condemned “Islamism”.

    That’s all a world away from your claim.

  19. Noel- the condemnation of Islamism was in the same sentence with which he cheered on the massacre, saying the real terrorists were the blasphemers of Charlie Hebdo. As for being “one nutter” then he must be a shapeshifter because he does a remarkable job of looking like multiple individuals as the photos show.

  20. Colm – that’s correct because it’s correct. As we know, jews will put jews first in everything and I agree with that to a great extent. Russia now does the same.

  21. //was in the same sentence with which he cheered on the massacre, saying the real terrorists were the blasphemers of Charlie Hebdo.//

    Ross, that’s nonsense. Just because he believes blasphemy of Christ is a worse crime does NOT mean he approves of the massacre, as you claimed.

    He is a Christian religious nutter. For people like him, it’s natural to hate blasphemy of Christ and hate Islam. He probably hates Jews too.
    There’s no contradiction there, and in fact it’s part of a long holy tradition, especially in Russia.

  22. Yea, Putin has done such a great job in developing the Russian economy. Its firing on all cylinders.

    He runs such a clean government, too. No corruption that the people have to be concerned about, and an unfettered free press that lets people speak openly without fear of government retribution.

    And on the diplomatic front, Russia now has excellent relations worldwide with all nations.

    This is putting Russian people first at all times. He is a chess grandmaster.

  23. Yes, and let’s not forget that one of Putin’s most high profile victims was murdered in London.

    “On 1 November 2006, Litvinenko set off from his home in Muswell Hill, taking the bus and then the Northern line into central London to meet two visitors from Moscow – Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, both former KGB agents. Litvineko was keen to swap insider information on Russian business. The venue was the Millennium Hotel in Grosvenor Square, close to the US embassy. The three men sat in a corner of the hotel’s pokey ground-floor bar. When Litvinenko got there, a pot of green tea was waiting for him. He took just a small sip. The encounter lasted 20 minutes; they talked of a possible deal with a private security firm.

    That evening, back home with Anatoly and Marina, Litvinenko began to throw up. He couldn’t stop vomiting. He felt certain he had been poisoned, though he didn’t know who was responsible, and it was some time before he suspected his Russian contacts. He also thought he would survive. He lasted 22 days, an agonising death played out under the glare of the international media, as the baffled British authorities scrambled to identify the murder weapon. Radiation experts discovered the cause of Litvinenko’s illness hours before he died: poisoning by polonium-210, a virtually undetectable radioactive isotope produced at closed government facilities inside Russia. Soviet intelligence had used polonium before, in domestic operations against dissidents. But this was something new: a brazen assassination, carried out in central London, deploying a kind of mini-nuclear bomb.

    Once Litvinenko realised his situation was grave, he came to the conclusion that Putin had personally ordered his murder….”

    Link here

  24. Phantom – let’s substitute Russia for America in your post of 11.34pm:

    Yea, Obama has done such a great job in developing the American economy. Its firing on all cylinders.

    He runs such a clean government, too. No corruption that the people have to be concerned about, and an unfettered free press that lets people speak openly without fear of government retribution.

    And on the diplomatic front, the US now has excellent relations worldwide with all nations.

    This is putting the American people first at all times.

    He is a chess grandmaster.

    There’s only so far that I can take this. Obama reads the teleprompter most professionally – he should read the news.

    The fact is that the US is a corporate prison-state:

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40575.htm

    Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the largest owner of for-profit prisons and immigration detention facilities in the country, had revenues of $1.7 billion in 2013 and profits of $300 million. CCA holds an average of 81,384 inmates in its facilities on any one day. Aramark Holdings Corp., a Philadelphia-based company that contracts through Aramark Correctional Services to provide food to 600 correctional institutions across the United States, was acquired in 2007 for $8.3 billion by investors that included Goldman Sachs.

    But corporate profit is not limited to building and administering prisons. Whole industries now rely almost exclusively on prison labor. Federal prisoners, who are among the highest paid in the U.S. system, making as much as $1.25 an hour, produce the military’s helmets, uniforms, pants, shirts, ammunition belts, ID tags and tents. Prisoners work, often through subcontractors, for major corporations such as Chevron, Bank of America, IBM, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Starbucks, Nintendo, Victoria’s Secret, J.C. Penney, Sears, Wal-Mart, Kmart, Eddie Bauer, Wendy’s, Procter & Gamble, Johnson & Johnson, Fruit of the Loom, Motorola, Caterpillar, Sara Lee, Quaker Oats, Mary Kay, Microsoft, Texas Instruments, Dell, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Nordstrom’s, Revlon, Macy’s, Pierre Cardin and Target. Prisoners in some states run dairy farms, staff call centers, take hotel reservations or work in slaughterhouses. And prisoners are used to carry out public services such as collecting highway trash in states such as Ohio.

    Chris Hedges spent nearly two decades as a foreign correspondent in Central America, the Middle East, Africa and the Balkans. He has reported from more than 50 countries and has worked for The Christian Science Monitor, National Public Radio, The Dallas Morning News and The New York Times, for which he was a foreign correspondent for 15 years.

    Is this true?

  25. Why does Russia have bad relations with so many of its neighbors?

    What have Ukraine, Georgia, or the Baltics done to harm Russia?

  26. But this was something new: a brazen assassination, carried out in central London, deploying a kind of mini-nuclear bomb.

    Once Litvinenko realised his situation was grave, he came to the conclusion that Putin had personally ordered his murder.

    The Guardian’s ‘reporter’ Luke Harding studied English at Oxford – which means that he studied neither science nor law. For somebody to write “deploying a kind of mini-nuclear bomb” relating to Polonium-210 is ridiculous. To then state that “he came to the conclusion that Putin had personally ordered his murder” with no supporting evidence whatsoever is possibly even worse.

    This is what happens when arts graduates report on things of which they know nothing. ‘Artsy’ people can only know nothing.

  27. Phantom – Russia has good relations with most of its neighbours. US/NATO expansionism into eastern Europe contrary to the understandings of 1990 explains the problems in the other countries, including Georgia:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8281990.stm

    The war in Georgia last year was started by a Georgian attack that was not justified by international law, an EU-sponsored report has concluded.

    Who could possibly have incited tiny Georgia to attack Russia?

    Now, on gulag-USA, are the items reported in my link at 12.08am correct?

  28. I have said that NATO expansion so far east was an error and a violation of understandings between the US and Russia.

    And Ukraine is not without blame.

    But Russia is responsible for its own aggressive actions against Ukraine, which you guys are most unwise to support acts if war against a weak neighbor, who will likely now be an enemy of Russia for a long time.

  29. Strangely i don’t seem to recall any of this lot walking hand in hand down Royal Avenue in Belfast to protest against terrorism? I am surprised that McGuinness or one of his lot of ‘nice’ terrorists wasn’t there though.

    Perhaps the way forward for France is to start secret talks with the terrorists, tell the people of France to ‘move on’, then allow some of them to be elected to a new French Government?

    Hypocrisy at it’s very worst.

  30. The two countries which our resident polymath Allan believes look after the interests of their people are both ones that will be majority Muslim eventually. Russia because of it’s mass immigration from central Asia and the caucuses and Israel because it won’t let the rapidly growing Palestinian territories go.

    So demographic replacement is the key to looking after your people it seems.

  31. I have said that NATO expansion so far east was an error and a violation of understandings between the US and Russia

    An error? It’s deliberate policy. I can just imagine the scene in the State Department or the CFR when somebody says “we’ve just made an error (over these past two decades). Let’s not expand into eastern Europe”. That won’t happen because it’s policy to expand against Russia, and the latest anti-Russian legislation going through Congress simply makes it all the clearer.

    As for:

    (Russia and Israel) are both ones that will be majority Muslim eventually.

    the rate at which French jews are leaving to go to Israel and the rate at which Israel is stealing palestinian territories means that will be no viable palestine and no palestinians. Russians have reveresed their demographic decline with Putin’s ‘child bonus’ payments, plus a general anti-FEMENist stance is orienting Russian women towards having children.

  32. Why does Russia have bad relations with so many of its neighbors?
    What have Ukraine, Georgia, or the Baltics done to harm Russia?

    Because its eastern neighbours represent a buffer between it and its natural enemies (of centuries). The same adversaries are still trying to reduce those buffers, which Russia has no option but to prevent.

  33. Then allow some of them to be elected to a new French Government

    The only people who ‘allow’ anyone to be elected into government are the electorate.

    Unionist hegemony is dead with a stake through its heart and it’s not coming back JM.

    Get used to it.

  34. Russia is not trusted by Poland, the Baltics and others who were colonized by Russia / USSR

    It has over history been predator, not prey, to those lands.

    Eastern Europeans do not forget this history, even if some Scotsmen do.

  35. //It has over history been predator, not prey, to those lands.//

    Russia has probably been attacked by Polish forces, usually as allies of some other western power, more often than vice versa.
    It’s foolhardy to apply western rules to eastern Europe. Nation states didn’t emerge there the way they emerged in the west, and linguistic and ethnic boundaries are vague and erratic etc.

  36. Allan Russian birth rates are increasing because of all the non ethnic Russians who’ve been brought in. It’s nice to see that your love of authoritarianism overwhelms your usual intense hatred of other races though.

  37. “which Russia has no option but to prevent.”

    I can think of several options beyond killing lots of their neighbours.

  38. One of the most pathetic claims that Russia and it’s amen chorus often make are that basic human rights are Western values, as if their people are somehow less deserving of free speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of and from religion. It was a specious argument during the Cold War and utterly without merit today.

  39. Agreed, Mahons.

    A derivation of the old “freedom of speech won’t feed my children” argument.

    The statement is true up to a point. But if your children are starving and you speak out…in a democratic country, there will be an outcry and the Govt embarrassed into doing something; in a non-democratic country, your children will probably end up as orphans as well.

  40. I don’t know nor care how this thread evolved from this joke “Unity Day” to a post about poor tortured Russia. You people make fun of my logic, I can’t help but laugh at some of yours.

    Russia is in a very dangerous volatile position right now that wouldn’t take much to push it open hostilities with everyone.

    This Khumbiah Unity Day crap is a sad wast of time. What did the day accomplish? Nothing. Did the jihadists in the no go areas come out and repent how wrong and misguided they are? Did the Wahhabi Imams issue a fatwa to hug a jew?

    All this day did was create a security nightmare for all the SS units. Looking at that picture all I could think of is there is someone viewing it wishing they had an RPG.

  41. It has over history been predator, not prey, to those lands.

    Like every other powerful nation, in its own back yard. Including Britian, USA, Germany….

    Also, they were no more ‘colonised’ by Russia than France and Germany were in the post war period (by the west), but if we want to go down that route then tell me, which (WW2) allied nations still post troops in Europe?

  42. Russia is in a very dangerous volatile position right now that wouldn’t take much to push it open hostilities with everyone.

    Maybe because it will have been provoked. i agree with you that conflict is a possibility, but lets not pretend its occurred in a vacuum. Russia hasn’t simply just decided one day to go feral from the ‘international order’. It has been under various kinds of assault (from the west) since the end of the cold war.

  43. A spectacular lie to equate the iron curtain to the West. People were not limbic over the Berlin Wall to get into East Germany.

  44. Straw man Mahons. That’s not what I claimed. Both were occupations (in the west and east), I made no value judgements.

    A colonisation is vastly different to destroying the biggest (man-made) existential threat that has arguably ever existed on planet earth. unless you want to suggest that Russia should just have wandered back 1000 miles and hoped the same thing wouldn’t happen in another 6 months.

  45. And if we really want to look at actual colonisations of neighbours lets talk about the Munroe Doctrine and Central/Latin America.

  46. Let’s talk about Central or Latin America. US policy even at its lowest moment did not result in anything as bad as what places experienced under the hand of the Soviets. Russia today is under no serious threat from its neighbors.

  47. //Let’s talk about Central or Latin America. US policy even at its lowest moment did not result in anything as bad as what places experienced under the hand of the Soviets.//

    That’s very questionable. In terms of oppression and sheer political dominance, the Soviets in E Europe were much worse. In terms of people killed, the US was much worse.

  48. Noel – I think you’ll have a hard time providing statistics to back that up. I suppose it may depend on the period you may be focusing on, whether your numbers include regimes supported by the US and discount regimes and or movements supported by the Soviets.

  49. //I suppose it may depend on the period you may be focusing on,//

    I’m focussing on the period and place you and DT were talking about: the SU’s dominance of eastern Europe and the US presence in Latin America.

    There’s little point in comparing them, of course, because the situations were so completely different. It is nevertheless a very dubious claim that what the people of Latin America suffered as a result of US policies wasn’t nearly as bad as what people in E. European countries experienced under the SU. The US subverted democracies there and aided, armed and created regimes that killed hundreds of thousands of people.

    The SU’s political and military dominance over E Europe was, as I said, infinitely more smothering than the US efforts in LA. A few thousand people were killed in the Hungarian uprising. Maybe the SU would have killed more people than the US puppets did if more of their subject people had risen.

  50. Interesting development at the BBC:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2906539/Calls-BBC-reporter-resign-told-daughter-Holocaust-survivors-Paris-Palestinians-suffer-hugely-Jewish-hands-well.html#ixzz3Oc47hXUu

    Calls for BBC reporter to resign after he told daughter of Holocaust survivors in Paris: ‘Palestinians suffer hugely at Jewish hands as well’Tim Willcox was covering yesterday’s Paris rally for the BBC News channel

    He spoke to participants during a live broadcast from the streets of Paris

    One woman he spoke to expressed fears Jews were being persecuted

    She told him ‘the situation is going back to the days of the 1930s’

    Willcox replied: ‘Many critics though of Israel’s policy would suggest that the Palestinians suffer hugely at Jewish hands as well’

    Comments sparked anger and calls for him to resign

    Willcox has apologised for offence caused by ‘poorly phrased question’

    The jews are now organising a hunt for Tim Willcox. As one of the commentators wrote:

    Je suis Tim Willcox

    To learn who rules you, find out whom you cannot criticise. That is attributed to a Frenchman.

  51. //‘Many critics though of Israel’s policy would suggest that the Palestinians suffer hugely at Jewish hands as well’//

    Half a dozen Jews were killed in Paris. Qualifying that by referring in the context of the commemorations to Palestinians suffering “at Jewish hands” is tasteless and irrelevant.

  52. One woman he spoke to expressed fears Jews were being persecuted

    She told him ‘the situation is going back to the days of the 1930s’

    Half a dozen Jews were killed in Paris. Qualifying that by referring to ‘the Holocaust’ is tasteless and irrelevant.

    It’s the same card being played time and again:

  53. “To learn who rules you, find out whom you cannot criticise.”

    As lazy and glib a phrase as “cui bono?” in the context of apportioning blame.

    If only the world could be defined by lazy sound-bites. Thankfully/unfortunately it is lot more complex and unpredictable than that.

  54. I see that jews are getting their own special police force because they are special people, more special than everybody else. For the likes of whites to set up their own patrols to protect their young girls from the predations of allah’s followers, that would be ‘vigilantism’ and would be attacked by jew-know-who but, as stated, they are special:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2905047/Jewish-patrol-cars-force-London-amid-fears-copycat-attack.html

    Extra Jewish security patrol cars and police were out in force in North-West London yesterday following the kosher store siege in Paris.

    The cars look very similar to police vehicles and bear the security group’s name ‘Shomrim’ – Hebrew for ‘guards’ – along the sides and back

    Check the cars – they ARE police cars. Any chance of some of them in Rotherham?

  55. MourneReg, on January 12th, 2015 at 5:26 PM Said:

    If only the world could be defined by lazy sound-bites.

    In the case of Tim Willcox who may soon lose his job because of ‘speech crime’, the sound-bite is true. He critiscised those who cannot be criticised.

  56. Jews are being singled out for protection because people with similar peasant mindsets as yourself, Allan, are targeting them for murder because of their ethnicity.

  57. Jews are being singled out for protection because people with similar peasant mindsets as yourself, Allan, are targeting them for murder because of their ethnicity.

    What, in Stamford Hill? maybe someone should … err tell the police? Isn’t that why we have to pay them?

    Now look, I have no problem with private security agencies. This is a tacit admission that the rozzers can’t keep you safe. But thousands of young British girls have been targetted by Islamic enrichers, and Britons came up with the same solution you can be sure the police would stamp on them good and hard.

  58. Ross – what do you think the ethnicity being targetted for rape in Rotherham should do given the refusal of the police to protect them? As an extra, where do I advocate or support the murder of jews? Certainly they should be ‘aliyahed’ to Israel and I advocate that openly.

  59. Paul – not you. It’s a faked fake and you saw through it immediately. As an aside, that policeman did seem rather untouched by any bullet, though it doesn’t really mean anything at all.

    As an example of jewish chutzpah, here is David Aaronovitch standing up for freedom of speech, except when it’s ‘speech crime’ mentioning jew-know-who:

  60. Pete Moore, on January 12th, 2015 at 6:34 PM Said:
    Jews are being singled out for protection because people with similar peasant mindsets as yourself, Allan, are targeting them for murder because of their ethnicity.

    What, in Stamford Hill?

    Pete – belittling jewish sufferink is anti-semitic and racist, as you know. Somebody really is targetting jews in Stamford Hill. It’s like the 1930’s:

    http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/125613/man-arrested-after-car-tyres-slashed-stamford-hill

    By Rosa Doherty, November 17, 2014
    Follow Rosa on Twitter
    Police have arrested a man in connection with a racially motivated attack in a Jewish area of London.

    Tyres on over 40 cars parked in streets in Stamford Hill were slashed in the early hours of Monday morning.

    According to a spokesman for Shomrim, the volunteer community security group, the damaged cars were makes known to be favoured by local Jews.

    He said: “Tens of vehicles were targeted, with the trend being Volvos and people-carriers of various makes, which are very popular vehicles amongst the Jewish community.”

    Moishe Friedlander, who liaises between the Jews and police in the area, said: “I have no doubt it was a hate crime.

    Oh vey – Volvos are being targetted for extermination. It’s the holocaust all over again.

  61. There’s little point in comparing them

    Noel, I wasnt attempting to compare. I was trying to point out that russia did not colonise eastern europe. Russia shed almost all the blood in destroying the third reich yet lazy, ignorant americans choose to believe they were in it for their own ‘colonial’ gain. The world owes russia a great debt of gratitude, and all it ever gets is a stick in the eye. Its a shame that may yet haunt europe and beyond, as russia looks finally fed up with the constant needling and may infact slip into the mould others have in no small part made for them.

  62. ahhh I forgot how truly comical you are trip.

    Between you on this thread and Petes last post I thank you both for adding humor to my day.

  63. dt

    The USSR had a cozy arrangement with Nazi Germany. They agreed to carve Poland in two despite the fact that a weak Poland had committed no real offense against either of horrific regime.

    The USSR only fought Nazi Germany when Hitler double crossed them and broke the alliance. Churchill and Roosevelt saw the danger in Hitler early on, Stalin only did when attacked.

    The USSR shed more blood because the Red Army was incompetently lead in the beginning. They were unprepared. Their army was weakened by communist purges, officers selected by party loyalty not military prowess.

    The US and Britain had exceptionally competent commanders like Ike, Patton, Montgomery, Marshall. Their goal was to kill Nazis, not to shed unnecessary blood of their own men. They were successful in doing so.

    The likes of you will get no apologies for this.

    If the Russians had not allied themselves with Hitler, all the allied forces would have had fewer deaths.

    The Russians attacked Poland twice – once when they split the country in two, in league with Hitler, and again when Poland was forced against its will to be a communist nation. This is why Poles don’t trust the Russian bear. The other nations of east Europe don’t either.

  64. Day tripper – as an apologist for Stalin you’ve now gone well past what even the most ignorant American could hope to achieve in terms of moral stupidity.

  65. DT is probably a good guy, but his knowledge of history is shockingly weak.

    He actually appears to believe that the effectiveness of an army is measured by how many of its own soldiers are killed.

    He doesn’t know realize that the USSR not only had a colonial empire in Eastern Europe but that it had two different types of empires there – forced incorporation in the USSR ( Baltics etc ) and forced communist regime / membership in Warsaw Pact ( Poland, Czechs etc ) . I recommend that he ask an East European , esp a Pole, if Russia colonized east Europe.

    ( The USSR also seized lands from Finland, which it still holds )

  66. allan that would be difficult… the settings are “private” you have to be on the posters friend list….

    something tells me I’m glad Im not….

    now back to Gotham two more episodes and I’m caught up

  67. Communism was very much an imperial movement for a long time, with Moscow at the center.

    I don’t know,whether its better if he knows this or not. Maybe he is one of those guys with a Che t shirt as his library.

    Cheers.

  68. I have a che t-shirt… it has the classic image, but then it says He was a Murderous Communist Bastard

    We were down by the Liberty Bell about two years ago, and this dredlocked White Girl was Driving one of the tourist trap horse and buggies yelled hey love the shirt… I said did you read it?….

    I thought she was going to run me over with the buggy 😉

    http://che-mart.com/T-Shirts/tshirt_Che_bastard_red.gif

  69. The USSR had a cozy arrangement with Nazi Germany.

    Russia made a pragmatic agreement with the Nazis that they implicitly understood would eventually end in war. Hitler’s ambitions in the east were hardly a secret, nor Nazi hatred of communism or the USSR. And as I said earlier, then like now, the spheres of influence in the pact were about increasing buffer space between the to monolithic powers. It wasn’t a naked colonial move (ie primarily economic).

    The USSR only fought Nazi Germany when Hitler double crossed them and broke the alliance.

    Stalin was in denial for several days after the invasion of June 41. He simply did not want to believe that the pact had been broken so soon. Its all well documented history if you choose to step outside the one dimensional ‘history channel’ narratives. If my memory serves me, even the likes of Anthony Beevor say Stalin expected to have years, where the Western nations will all smash each other skulls in. The logic being that the USSR would be ready to take on the Third Reich with a capable Red Army.

    Any way my initial argument was that 1945 was an occupation, not a colonial expedition. Not that the soviets were incapable of imperial ambition. The conditions of the occupation also, were not part of the argument.

    The USSR shed more blood because the Red Army was incompetently lead in the beginning. They were unprepared. Their army was weakened by communist purges, officers selected by party loyalty not military prowess.

    Wouldnt dispute that for a second. Again, im only stating facts. The USSR did ~95% of all land based fighting in Europe. They engaged and destroyed more divisions and armour. The Wehrmacht was primarily destroyed by the USSR. I didn’t make any claims as to the quality of the fighting or the command. But nobody else could field an army of the size needed to defeat the germans. Remember, the US Army only exceeded the British in size on D-Day. The russians by contrast were engaged on a front that spanned a continent north to south. Belittle that if you must, accuse me of being a stalinist too, but you cannot avoid simple facts.

    If the Russians had not allied themselves with Hitler, all the allied forces would have had fewer deaths.

    And if they had been defeated/surrendered or stayed out of the war altogether what exactly do you think Hitler would have done with his divisions? His ambitions were global.

    This is why Poles don’t trust the Russian bear. The other nations of east Europe don’t either.

    That distrust pre-dates both World Wars and was and still is mutual. History didn’t start when the US got its imperial ambitions into high gear either you know.

  70. Pedantic post of the day –

    Poland is in Central Europe.
    They really don’t like being referred to as Eastern European….at all.

  71. The russian-German pact was also about expansion and colonization as about half a dozen of Russia’s neighbors could attest to who were invaded or annexed by the Soviets.

  72. // The USSR did ~95% of all land based fighting in Europe. They engaged and destroyed more divisions and armour. The Wehrmacht was primarily destroyed by the USSR. I didn’t make any claims as to the quality of the fighting or the command. But nobody else could field an army of the size needed to defeat the germans//

    How the Red Army recovered in 1941, in some cases practically recreated from scratch, and then halt and then beat the Germans is one of the great stories in military history.

  73. Indeed Noel, and its a story deliberately wiped from our collective history education. Lest we remember.

  74. Daytripper,

    I don’t think it is deliberately wiped from our education – it is only natural that Western countries emphasise the role of Western countries in the liberation of Europe. Anyone with an interest in WWII would be aware that the Soviets did most of the heavy lifting in the ultimate defeat of the Nazis and their allies.

    And any sense of gratitude the world feels towards the Soviets (and we SHOULD be grateful) has to be tempered by the knowledge of the blanket of misery they spread over central and eastern Europe afterwards.

  75. mournereg is correct – There has been no collective wiping of the SU role in WW2 – It has not been erased and is widely known how fiercely and massively the Soviets fought and suffered, but that does not and should not excuse the imprisoning of the occupied Eastern European countries behind the communist Iron curtain for the 50 + years after the war.

  76. Paul – your video of 7.32pm has been removed by youtube. Do you have another source?

  77. //that does not and should not excuse the imprisoning of the occupied Eastern European countries //

    Nobody tried to excuse the SU behaviour in eastern Europe.

    DT merely said that the SU didn’t colonise E Europe, and in the normal definition of the word he is right (although it did try to “colonise” Kaliningrad and parts of the Baltic states).

    Besides, who of those arguing with DT is opposed to colonisation?

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