205 6 mins 6 yrs

Oh, the sheer terror of it all! The black headlines flood onto the pages and the screens, all stating one thing only; ‘How cruel, how terrible, how unfeeling; and on, and on, ad infinitum’. A  cross-section of those headlines read: ‘Global anger reaches Minnesota’, ‘Justice for Cecil’, and  ‘The hunter is hunted’; as well as ‘Dentist who killed Cecil regrets his actions!’ The target of all this wrath? Some monstrously-inhuman serial killer who is targeting people named Cecil? No folks, all this ink and false indignation revolves around an American who fired a cross-bow bolt and wounded this particular lion in Zimbabwe, before tracking the animal and finally despatching it with a bullet. The terrible story evolves when it was revealed that the lion had allegedly been lured away from the protection of a game park, and then ambushed by this bloodthirsty dentist, who had paid $50,000 for the privilege of shooting this  lion. Further news shook the world’s population  when it was revealed that the lion actually wore a tracker collar, which had been fitted as part of some spurious scientific survey or other. Real live ‘celebrities’ were quoted as expressing their horror at the mindless slaughter of a proud animal, just to feed the trophy wall of a rich tourist. Worse was to follow, as can be seen from perusing this particular section of what is loosely termed ‘Social Media’. As Joseph Conrad might have put it “he cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath: The horror! The horror!”.

The Zimbabwean game hunter and his tracker have been arrested on charges of poaching, and Vegetarians Worldwide are seeking to have the dentist arraigned on charges of assisting King Herod and the slaughter of the Innocents. (well, yes; I exaggerate, but only by a small amount).

Has anyone stepped back, metaphorically speaking, and gazed at this ludicrous non-story, and checked out the enormous hypocrisy behind this explosion of fake anger and total lunacy. What has actually happened? We, as Homo Sapiens, are literally at the head of the global food chain, and we kill literally millions of animals, birds and fish every single day so that we might eat, and prosper, and survive. We are a predator species, and whilst accepting that an American dentist was not hunting for food, we must accept that he was following in the footsteps of our ancestors going back to the dim mists of time. We hunt, we kill; even at second-, third- or even fourth-hand, because when we visit a supermarket, or a corner store to buy readily available protein in the shape of chicken, or beef, or pork; we automatically must accept that some animal or other species has been killed to provide that protein, so that we might survive. Vegetarians may state that they live perfectly well without the sacrifice of a living thing, and they have as much right to that belief as anyone else; but it is not a majority viewpoint. Hunters kill and claim their trophies every day, all over Africa, excepting of course where the locals are too busy killing each other;  South Africa operates legal trophy hunting as do many other countries, so what is the problem? Why the fury, the snot and the anger? We accept, in silence, the bloody ritual slaughter within British slaughterhouses which is dictated by the Muslim Halal and the Jewish Kosher rituals, so why the vicious headlines about the death of one old lion?

The real hypocrisy, in my own viewpoint, is in the silence on where this non-story emanates from, namely Zimbabwe. Where are the headlines about everyday life in this poverty-stricken nation, which once owned the proud title of the bread-basket of Southern Africa? Where are the headlines about the farms stolen from the owners who are just as much African as the thieves who have legally, and illegally, stolen 90% of the farms in this once-productive country? Where are the stories in the major newspapers the world over about the total theft and hijacking of the richest diamond deposits discovered in the last ten years? Where are the postings on ‘Social Media’ about the everyday misery of those unfortunates not to be either in Government jobs, on the payroll of unscrupulous and murderous politicians, or on the trucks and cars which ferry the bully-boy gangs from Zanu-Patriotic Front who masquerade as the new ‘War Veterans’ when they arrive and terrorise any meeting of which their masters do not approve! I link, without further comment; to a blogsite which I read regularly, which gives an insight into the everyday struggles to survive, in a country which I visited twice; and in doing so drove through that same Hwange Game Park which was the lion’s hunting ground: that country which once was so prosperous it exported millions of tonnes of food.

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205 thoughts on “The lion, and the hypocrisy.

  1. The thing I find the funniest is the newspaper comments columns.

    Post like …I abhor violence of all kinds …they should shoot the lot of them. I’d like to shoot this dentist or behead him with a kitchen knife on youtube…and hang his carcass on the wall… yours (Miss) Disgusted of Tunbridge wells….etc etc


    Does nobody else find this kind of mixed message post just utterly hilarious? Or am I a minority of just one on this?

  2. why is he a coward? Because he has enough money to Hunt exotic Animals?

    I guess he would be heroic if he gave that money to a cause people like Mia Farrow who tweeted out his address do, to Planed Parenthood to kill babies, So they can be chopped up and the parts sold.

    That’s what galls me. The same people who are freaking out about this poor poor Lion gladly with pride donate money for the slaughter of Human Beings… but I’m sure they feel noble for it.

    I’m not saying you do Phantom. Your comment is just what I would expect from you, because the Sport of Hunting is something else just beyond your grasp.

    I ask you Phantom as a city man of culture. Where do you think the Animals in Museums come from? Do you think that the Elephants, Lions, Tigers, Bears etc that we see in these fine institutions are the stuffed carcasses of beasts that what died of heart attacks?

  3. I’m all for hunting.

    In the case of deer in the US, we should have twice as much hunting as we do now.

    I wish the lion had eaten that gutless son of a bitch though. There was no purpose to what he did. He’ll be a marked man for the rest of his days, and I don’t feel all that bad about it.

  4. The Troll, on July 30th, 2015 at 4:22 PM Said:
    what is your complaint about Safari Hunting then?

    If you really have to kill animals, then kill them,. don’t just fucking wing them, and follow it for miles upon end while it dies in total fucking agony.

    They are not the animals, we are.

  5. ok so you state a position that a man is a coward, and it’s not because he hunts. You just consider him a coward but lack the balls to state why.

    That is typical of the quality of your comments. When ever asked your reasoning on a subject you refuse to explain why you hold a position.

    What’s the matter afraid of being laughed at, or is it you just don’t have a rational reason for oh so many of your positions.

    grow a set

  6. Like bullfighting I’d have more respect for hunting and hunters if it the chances were weighed more evenly but they’re not, it’s weighed heavily in the hunter’s / bullfughter’s favour.

    I wonder how many of these ‘outdoor men’ would pay good money to go up against a lion or a grizzly bear armed with nothing but body armour, a bow and arrow and a knife? I also wonder how many would pay the money to hunt humans if it were available and legal?

    You’re correct Phantom, both bullfighters and big game hunters like this ‘man’ are cowards.

  7. “That’s what galls me. The same people who are freaking out about this poor poor Lion gladly with pride donate money for the slaughter of Human Beings… but I’m sure they feel noble for it.”

    There are plenty of people who are horrified about the actions of Planned Parenthood and also opposed to the unnecessary slaughter of this magnificent animal.

  8. Troll,

    I am not against hunting (or bullfighting for that matter). The point is that these lions are magnificent, wild endangered animals. They are specifically protected for these reasons. Yer man then paid someone to break the law to lure it out of its protected zone to shoot it from close range.

    Disgraceful cowardice and a disgraceful disregard for the conservation of wildlife on our planet.

    Again…if you were a true conservative, you should be horrified by this act.

  9. Paul McMahon –

    I wonder how many of these ‘outdoor men’ would pay good money to go up against a lion or a grizzly bear armed with nothing but body armour, a bow and arrow and a knife?

    But that’s what he did. He went up against the lion with a crossbow, but so few people know anything about responsible hunting that they don’t mention what a stupid thing it was to do.

    Rule no 1 is that you kill quickly and cleanly. Because he dropped (apparently) 35K with the rangers, they allowed him to haul a bloodly stupid stupid crossbow out. He only wouded the lion and it suffered while they ytacked it for two days.

    A suitable rifle in responsible hands would have dropped it in a second.

    Plus, you obey the rest of the rules of hunting. 35K also got him access to a lion which was out of bounds and tagged for studying. People who don’t obey the rules aren’t safe to be around, so all hunters should be annoyed.

    But let’s be honest: liberals close their eyes to all sorts of horrors. They even defend the murderers and child organ traffickers of Planned Parenthood. So they are not annoyed about the lion.

    What gets their goat is that hunting is a conservative, manly act, and left-liberalism today is all about obliterating conservative manliness.

    What also gets their goat is the (in their view) gauche act of paying 35K to do something on a continent where almost everyone won’t earn that in their lives.

    These are the real reasons why unmanly liberals (but I repeat myself) have turned up outside this man’s home and business in peddle pushers.

  10. so Phantom are the people who suck the brains out of the unborn cowards?

    Killing what makes someone a coward or immoral?

    If it’s acceptable to kill unborn babies and I am pro-choice what makes killing a Lion unacceptable?

    Why call someone that paid over 50,000 to kill a lion a coward, he should be praised as a hero for what that money means to that countries economy.

    Yeah fuck those Africans let them starve and live in squalor as long as the animals are safe.

    I know lets feed the aborted babies to the lions that will make those on the left very happy. They can dispose of those pesky “mistakes” and give the Lions all the delicious protean they need.

  11. Reg he is not my man, and he paid for a legitimate hunt.

    It was declared on his Visa why he was in that country, he paid for the License to kill the animal. This guy didn’t sneak into somewhere, he paid for a hunt. The country is responsible for monitoring who is running the Safari’s in their country not the tourist.

  12. Yeah fuck those Africans let them starve and live in squalor as long as the animals are safe.

    We send countless gazillions of cash to Africa, and they are still starving?

    If gazillions of $$$$’s don’t have any effect, I don’t see what difference $35,000 could possibly make.

  13. Troll what Planned Parenthood do is perfectly legal. That doesn’t mean that it is right. Similarly the opposition that most people have to this disgusting excuse of a man isn’t that he may have broken the law.

  14. I know lets feed the aborted babies to the lions

    Or chicken, that is high in protein.

  15. in the mean time as we debate the pros and cons of hunting in third world countries during these two hours 6 babies have been killed. One every 20 minutes and that is acceptable.

    I think anyone who pays 50grand to kill anything is a fool with his money, but it’s his money and he paid for a legitimate legal hunt. It’s the host countries fault if the rules weren’t followed.

    Either way yes Lions are majestic looking creatures hunting any animal should first be done for food and second for the health of the species. They are however Animals. The fact that those like Farrow that are so outraged over the death of one lion while they are silent over the killing that they support of humans makes this whole topic laughable.

  16. No Seamus it is not Legal. It is against the Law for planned Parenthood to sell body parts for profit which is what they are doing.

  17. Troll

    And in Africa apparently a baby dies every 10 seconds through malnutrition.

    Now, where are all those countless billions of $$$$$’s going?

  18. The arsehole did not kill the lion for food, he killed it for fun.

    In my eyes, and millions of others, he is and will remain a weapons grade arsehole.

  19. into the pockets of Politicians, the hunt money goes directly to the game preserves. It is one of the less corrupt ways to get money into the economy.

    here is a story from the NYT two years ago on this very topic

  20. In my eyes, and millions of others, he is and will remain a weapons grade arsehole.

    Hear hear.

  21. the best thing about this story is the amount of oxygen it takes out of the news cycle.

    Lets see what can we talk about some izod wearing git that paid too much money to hunt an animal or…..

    The fact that examination of Lois Lerners hard drive shows that it didn’t crash but that it was taken out of her computer and physically damaged, or The Democrat Choice for President has been proven not just to be a Liar… we all know that but she is either dumbest woman or the most arrogant. Either way out of just a random sampling of 40 e-mails out of over 30,000 4 contained SECRET information from 5 different American Intelligence Agencies. Not shit that was later categorized “classified” after the fact, but already classified “secret” when she sent it, saved it, and stored it in a personal server. That’s ten percent, what’s ten percent of 30,000…. ? So at a minimum of 3000 e-mail of the ones she turned over contain secret/classified data. This doesn’t include the other 30,000 she admits to having destroyed because what was in them is none of your business. Oh and just like Lois Lerner we can’t even track the damage or crimes that she has committed because surprise…. the Hard Drives have been destroyed.

    but that’s ok you obsess over some animal being killed.

    And they say you can’t control the masses with propaganda.

    I

  22. Because as this site proves along with the Daily Headlines of the BBC, Pravda etc The world is obsessed with the US.

    The Lois Lerner case is especially interesting to the rest of the World. For over two centuries our Country has judged every other countries freedom and political oppression off of our standards. We have held ourselves up as the Ideal.

    Lois Lerner gives our fetters all they need to refute that. Just another good thing brought to you by democrats and Barrack Obama.

    It is after all a fundamental Change.

  23. For over two centuries our Country has judged every other countries freedom and political oppression off of our standards. We have held ourselves up as the Ideal.

    This pretty much sums up American thinking. They set themselves up in judgement over others, and hold themselves as the Ideal, whereas as almost every other country looks at the US and thinks, “They have no ideals.”

    🙂

  24. Troll

    There are a number of countries, Canada and the UK being among them, that have long been as just as free as the US when you look at the big picture.

    Or more free –

    the British empire abolished slavery over 30 years before the US did, with less drama, too

    The political process in the UK and Canada is less controlled by the wealthy oligarchs who control the Democrat and Republican party

    people in the UK and Canada pretty much do not have to fear being crushed by medical costs, they way their US cousins do, and that is a freedom

    I don’t think that too many Americans run around bragging about our political superiority these days. Other countries have just as much to teach us as we have to teach them.

  25. Troll is busy right now, but he asked me to say a few words on his behalf:

    Troll – it’s ok – I got this.

    Your an ass Phantom. America stands head and shoulders above everyone, at everything, every time. You live in youre comfortable bubble and you think you know it all, ye maroon. Lissen Bubbleboy, we do everything bigger and better than all the rest. Why? because we were created by God to stand in judgement over those unlucky enough not to be born Americans. It is our God given duty to teach those other countries what it means to be free, and if that means going in with boots on the ground or with our super high-tec drones, then so be it.

    You should hang youre head in shame. You call yourself an American? Grow a set and act like one, ya git.

    You, and the Traitor-in-Chief in the White House need to pull youre heads outta youre asses and smell the coffee. The American people are sick of this shit, and there’s a change coming. Only 16 more months and we’ll be rid of that traitorous git and then the US will be able to stand proud again as the greatest nation in the universe.

    Bubble Boy.

    😉

  26. The lion killer was a rich guy who went to an impoverished country to kill a protected (poorly) creature for thrills. An adult mind can be justly critical of him and be critical of other wrongs in that part of the World.

  27. The lion killer was a rich guy who went to an impoverished country to kill a protected (poorly) creature for thrills.

    I really hope that the soab dies a sad and painful death. He has earned it.

  28. I am justly critical of this idiot dentist hunting down gorgeous animals for sport.

    That said, the selective outrage of the Progressive Left is most upsetting. More news stories about this lion in one day than the entire week of Planned Parenthood videos.

    We have seen on video little human baby legs and hands being separated in a petri dish and heard on tape the voices of soulless murderers discussing how to get the most money for the heart, brain, appendages. We have even heard them admit that they don’t want to get caught and that they have lawyered up.

    So, I ask…why the outrage, Progressives????

    You obviously don’t care about human babies -why so upset about an adult lion?

  29. People who use tragedies for primarily for political purposes (see above) are not thinking adults.

  30. I’m interested in how a story about some bloke paying to kill a protected lion is remotely related to abortion.

    It’s like saying: how can you talk about this lion getting killed, haven’t you heard about the Armenian genocide?!!

  31. it’s related Mahons because there is the real hypocrisy.

    We have proof that the tax payer is paying for 1 million babies a year to be harvested for parts and the people like Mia Fsrrow who gave this guys address out so that he could be persecuted are supporters of planned parenthood.

    I believe that is what connects the two.

  32. Mahons, on July 31st, 2015 at 4:17 AM Said:

    People who use tragedies for primarily for political purposes (see above) are not thinking adults.

    that’s your parties whole philosophy Mahons “Never let a good tragedy go to waste”

  33. as for Phantoms lecture on Canada and the UK being just as free as the US and better in healthcare. Canadians with the money still cross the border every day to get there medical treatment here in the US and as for Britain Mike who lives there comments enough about the NHS to blow as many holes into that statement as anyone could want.

    As for the Freedom end tell me Phantom even as tasteless as the Blackface people discussed in an earlier thread are I ask would the cops be looking to arrest them here?

    Come back to lecturer me about how other nations are better than us when you educate yourself about your own country. What you don’t know about your own country fills volumes.

  34. Troll

    No offence mate.

    But there are many folk on ATW who travel the world, some travel, live and work all over Europe, some, like Phantom, get to travel to wonderful far-flung distant places, and no doubt get’s to learn, understand and respect other nations cultures, I believe these folk are far better placed to know and understand a hell of a lot more than you do about how other peoples nations work, think, and expect.

    When you talk of a ‘bubble’ when it comes to global travel, and global life’s experiences, I think you might just be at the bottom of the pile here on ATW.

  35. The Troll, on July 31st, 2015 at 10:22 AM Said:
    Seimi
    never speak for me.

    Troll
    What I wrote was so clearly a joke. But you are right. I shouldn’t speak for you, even in jest, and I apologise. The tools at my disposal don’t allow me to dig quite that deep.

  36. Harri

    I freely admit my Bubble is the US.

    There are good things from every nation, but sorry there is no place like home.

  37. Troll

    And I admit I know little about America and even less about Canada, but I have just had a quick glance through ‘US V’s Canadian’ healthcare, are you sure the US healthcare system is superior to Canada’s?

  38. Troll

    When I compare the performance of national health systems, I focus on how it works for the average person. I don’t put undue emphasis on what some rich Canadians do ( crossing the US border in order to avoid wait lists )

    The average Canadian has very good care that he is happy with, and he doesn’t face the real possibility of having the family’s life savings destroyed over health care costs – an everyday event in the US.

    And no amount of talking points blathering changes that.

  39. I understand Phantom that you believe socialized medicine works out better for the average person. The people who die on waiting lists may disagree.

    You live in the US you have great PRIVATE Insurance paid for by both you and your employer. So in reality you know nothing. You have no first hand experience with it.

    I’m alive today because of our system, yes I’m broke but better broke then dead.

  40. I’ve never seen a study that shows that the Canadian system is worse than the US or that their population gets worse care. You get your info from the US right wing noise machine.

    And there is no evidence of any general unhappiness among Canadians about their system. And plenty of Canadians are familiar with the US system.

  41. //I’m alive today because of our system, yes I’m broke but better broke then dead.//

    Troll, if you lived in Europe, you’d have received better treatment, you would probably be cured now, you wouldn’t have had the slightest worry about cost of treatment or loss of finances or home etc. Throughout your sickness and recuperation, you would have received continued payment of your last salary. In fact, you wouldn’t be any worse off financially than before you fell ill.

    Believe me. Ask anyone who knows the US vs the European systems and he’ll confirm this. The US system drove you broke, almost killed you and caused you and your family to lose their home. It deserves nothing but contempt, especially from its victims. That you continue to praise it shows what a slave you are to an ideology that shits on your head.

  42. The Troll, on July 31st, 2015 at 11:04 AM Said:
    I know and you actually did a pretty damn good imitation Seimi… ?

    Thank you 🙂

  43. The Troll, on July 31st, 2015 at 11:04 AM Said:
    I know and you actually did a pretty damn good imitation Seimi… ?

    I thought it was brilliant, I actually went into my first meeting this morning smiling because of it, thanks Seimi .. and Troll. 🙂

  44. Noel

    Great analogy there of the European healthcare system, you usually come out richer in health and just as rich in your pocket.

    No hardships, no hassle, no fuss.

  45. I spoke years ago here of an American, a great worker that I know well, who developed a permanent disability. He was abandoned by his large company employer ( who had provided his health care ) and had major problems arising from that abandonment.

    I told Troll about this issue then. He evidently didn’t listen, as he still adores a system where sick people can be abandoned and ruined.

  46. Phantom so tell me socialized medicine is the way to go? Have you given up yours and signed up for Obamacare?

  47. Put your life where your mouth is drop your private insurance and get on Obamacare if not your full of shit.

  48. You haven’t paid attention to anything anyone has said on this over the years,

    I have said that other alternatives such as the Swiss private / regulated system, works well and could have been a model for the USA.

  49. // so tell me socialized medicine is the way to go? Have you given up yours and signed up for Obamacare?//

    Troll, you are probably not aware of this, but in most “socialized” medicine systems in Europe people have a choice of a range of public providers and very many private health insurance companies.

    AFAIK, the main differences to the traditional US system (or lack thereof) was that in Europe insurance is mandatory. The statutory providers are there to insure those who don’t wish to or who can’t afford private insurance. They are not allowed refuse anyone who can’t afford the private providers.

    Despite huge problems caused by rising healthcare costs and ageing populations, etc., this is still financially feasible because of the “solidarity principle”. The young and healthy pay, even though on average they draw little or no benefits from the system unless they fall ill, get pregnant, have children, etc.

    The standards of healthcare provided either by public or private insurance funds is very high. I could have either but, like most people of my age, chose a public fund. It is slightly more expensive, but provides total comprehensive healthcare for myself, wife and kids with no strings attached. You pay your contribution each month and you get a card that you can use for practically any medical service anywhere in Europe. No need to inquire if the particular treatment is covered, no need to collect receipts or fill out forms or any of that bullshit that’s the last thing you need when you’re sick.
    You just turn up at the doctor or hospital or pharmacy and show your insurance card and receive the treatment you need.

  50. I don’t remember you ever asking to put me on a call with anyone. I doubt it ever happened. You won’t even tell people your real name Mr Paranoia. Did this imaginary phone call offer take place before or after you wrote a post on here attacking me?

    Phantom I love it since we didn’t go the way of the swiss you’re going to keep your private insurance…..

    you’re so full of crap.

  51. The Troll, on July 31st, 2015 at 11:54 AM Said:

    ok so Europe and Canada have the worlds greatest healthcare….. yeah ok

    I believe they probably are Troll.

  52. Pete:

    But that’s what he did. He went up against the lion with a crossbow, but so few people know anything about responsible hunting that they don’t mention what a stupid thing it was to do

    Your point ‘He went up against the lion with a crossbow’ implies that it was an equal test of strength between man, weapon and beast yet makes no mention of the $$$ that he paid to the team to aid him in his ‘quest’ not exactly equal is it? Your ‘stupid thing’ comment also belies the equality of the test of strength as you suggest that going up against such a beast with anything but a ‘suitable rifle’ is stupid.

    But let’s be honest: liberals close their eyes to all sorts of horrors. They even defend the murderers and child organ traffickers of Planned Parenthood

    I’d probably be classed here as a ‘liberal’,(whatever that is), and while I am pro choice I absolutely don’t defend what Planned Parenthood have done and is it just those who perform abortions who are ‘murderers’ or are the women who decide to terminate murderers as well?.

    Others on this thread have falsely claimed that Planned Parenthood are profiting off foetus parts, (not true):

    Unspinning the Planned Parenthood Video

    But if it were true surely you, as someone who sees education, law enforcement, security etc as a commodity on the free market, would have no problems with foetal tissue, which is a surplus of a perfectly legal medical procedure, being sold on the open market?

    You and others here have used hunting as an apples and oranges comparable to abortion in an attempt to have a stick to beat the ‘liberals’ with. I know a number of women who have terminated their pregnancies, all for varying reasons none of which have been ‘fun’ ‘sport’ or ‘leisure’ all of which hunting has been described. Come back when women terminate pregnancies for the same reason and perhaps then you’ll have a valid comparison.

    Phantom,

    The political process in the UK and Canada is less controlled by the wealthy oligarchs who control the Democrat and Republican party

    Absolutely, don’t you know that living under a big business sponsored two horse political race is ‘freedom’?

    People in the UK and Canada pretty much do not have to fear being crushed by medical costs, they way their US cousins do, and that is a freedom

    I work with a girl from Cali whose mother has skin cancer. Her family cross the border into Mexico every month to stock up in medical supplies as the costs in the US are astronomical.

    Not only do I not think that someone arguing in favour of a medical system which has financially ruined them is ‘freedom’ I think it’s the epitome of 1984esque Stockholme Syndrome slavery.

  53. Troll

    You forget a great many things

    I may try to see when this exchange happened, later

  54. Like I said Noel yes Europe’s healthcare Canada’s hell even Mexico’s healthcare is better than the United States. We have the worst healthcare in the world.

    The US has the worst of everything, we are the failure nation of the world. Everything in every other country is better than the US.

    yeah those are the facts.

  55. Troll

    You are getting all emotional

    The US system can be improved. That’s all that the sober people have ever said.

  56. Noel

    Would that be The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC), which replaced the old E111?

    I used mine when I had my heart attack in Slovakia, I was informed the bill would have been 25,000 Euro’s if I did not produce mine.

    My wife contacted the health department back in the UK, who took full control of the situation, dealt with the private ambulance service, the emergency ward, the surgical procedure of the stent fitting, the medication, the private room, the entire medical assistance, and all the food provided for me and my family for the entire 11 days I was in the ICU, they even insisted I took a private ambulance from Bratislava back to England, (an offer I did not take up much to their dismay)… so, me personally, and my family back in England and in Slovakia, could not possibly have asked for anything more.

    All it cost me, was a box of British Cadbury chocolate bars which I posted to the hospital in thanks for saving my life .. wonderful service, wonderful caring people.

  57. Maybe if the US spent a couple of % less on their military, and put it towards making people better instead of killing them, it might improve peoples lives instead of devastating them.

    Just a thought.

  58. Troll

    I do remember a conversation on here where Phantom brought up a colleague of his and offered to help you with information regarding help with your healthcare. I also remember you writing something about considering it, and thanking Phantom at the time.

  59. I do to Seimi I don’t believe that is the conversation he is talking about.

  60. You mean there was another conversation where he offered help with your healthcare? There were two? And you didn’t take him up on the offer?

    These don’t sound like the actions of an enemy, Troll. perhaps you should take him up on the offer of help? What harm could it do?

  61. Phantom

    The US system can be improved. That’s all that the sober people have ever said.

    but that’s not what they did.

    What they did instead was dismantle the system and replace it with a system worse than socialized medicine. They replaced it with the VA System. Ask the Vets how that’s working.

    You don’t see the disaster because it’s a slow start. Unstopped within 5 years your healthcare will be gone. It will be replaced by a mandatory system that has been proven not to work. They didn’t improve anything.

  62. S

    No you refer to a conversation here where I spoke of workers compensation and things like that

    I referred to a conversation years ago. I even told him the name of the guys ( very famous ) employer

  63. Seimi Phantom is not an enemy.

    on many topics we see eye to eye, on the ones we don’t we are 180% apart.

    I did have an off site conversation with him about workmans comp. He pointed me in a couple of directions and I appreciated it.

  64. Harri. That’s the card.

    Cross border treatment has got easier than it used to be. Just before I left, I was working in the garden and sprained my back bad, but we were leaving the next day (first leg to Slovenia) and I didn’t have time to do anything about it.
    But by the time we got to Ljubljana the pain had got terrible, so I went to the local hospital and produced the card. I didn’t have to fill out any forms or anything, but got the treatment and was later sent to an expert, who diagnosed sciatica and gave me the pills.

    //The US has the worst of everything, we are the failure nation of the world//

    Troll, stop crying. The US is a great place and has many things to be proud of.

    But its public healthcare situation is a disgrace to such a strong and wealthy country. Americans are also a very fair-minded and compassionate people – which makes their failure to protect those who suffer a misfortune – like you and your family – all the most difficult for us outsiders to understand.

  65. The fact that I don’t remember the other conversation does not mean it did not take place. I have no problem trusting Phantoms recollection over mine on it.

    But lets just look at it.

    Phantoms friend has gone through a similar experience as I have. It is a problem in our system. I said our healthcare was the best not perfect.

    What the Obama administration has done is throw the baby out with the bath water. The longterm effects are catastrophic.

  66. The US is a great place and has many things to be proud of

    Absolutely true Noel but a healthcare system that almost makes families destitute and forces people to buy medicine in other countries, along with other things, isn’t one of them.

  67. I agree with Noel in that aspects of the US , Healthcare system are atrocious. Putting people into bankruptcy for being sick is not the hallmark of a thinking society. I also think aspects of the European system, of which I am moderately familiar have their own failures, including institutional incompetence

  68. very few buy meds from other countries less than 1%

    the destitute part well shit happens, you adapt, improvise, overcome.

  69. By jove, it’s all getting very emotive hereabouts.

    Man kills lion — international outrage.
    Christians enslaved and killed across much of the middle east — and barely a shrug of the shoulders.

  70. Very few buy meds from other countries less than 1%

    Those that live on borders with other countries? Does that !% also account for internet transactions?

    The destitute part well shit happens, you adapt, improvise, overcome

    How about you just try changing the system?

  71. Bernard point is well taken. I do believe one can be disgusted at the wanton act of the killing of this lion and still be incensed about the daily horrors in Africa. The media, mainstream and social, overindulgence in the animals death is counter to its lack of regular attention to the sufferings of humans.

  72. yeah that 1% includes internet sales.

    and they did change the system we are watching it slowly die before our eyes.

    as usual with most democrat plans instead of raising those at the bottom to the top they brought the top to the bottom.

  73. //the destitute part well shit happens, you adapt, improvise, overcome.//

    Children lose their home because a parent falls ill, and then one of the victims tries to believe this is the best system in the world?

    Pathetic. Troll, would any of the goons you have ever voted for lose his home if he got sick? Of course not. They need people like you who support them more than they support themselves. You, for your part, need your chains.

  74. Mahons it’s a distraction.

    The press pushes a stupid lion story while everything else goes unnoticed.

    Nero fiddles

  75. The story is newsworthy, just not dominating newsworthy. Look I’ve been rooting for the Christians over the Lions since the Roman times you mention. And I agree that the lion story got too much attention.

  76. That always happens. The story has been heavily driven by the internet reaction to it. The press will respond to public interest, rather than trying to shape it. It happens all the time. Some major political event will happen but the press will be spending time devoted to the fact that some celebrity fucked another celebrity. The press will report on what people want it to. It is the free market “peace be upon it” at work. Consumer interest (demand) will drive it not what is actually important or not.

  77. look I have suffered the worst of our healthcare system.

    I have lost all my material wealth. I have spent the last year living off the grace of my family and the charity of others.

    but on the other hand I have had 23 different tests for cancer, all negative thank god. Monday I go for an additional six tests.

    I have Lyme’s disease, Fibromyalgia and something else they can’t isolate yet. I have all the meds I need, and in time they will isolate what else is going on.

    I am 54 I have plenty of life left to rebuild everything material I have lost.

  78. Troll I think what most people are trying to suggest to you is that if you lived in Canada, or most places in Europe, you would have had all of those tests and treatments without losing all of your material wealth or having to rely on your family or others.

  79. The destitute part well shit happens, you adapt, improvise, overcome

    If these are my chains I where them freely

    That’s a frightening position.

    I am 54 I have plenty of life left to rebuild everything material I have lost

    Whilst I admire your drive and optimism the point is why be content to live under a system which has almost ruined you and your family financially when alternatives are available?

  80. you may be right Seamus.

    I can only deal with what options I have.

    Our system is far from perfect, but what they have done has not made it better.

  81. Obamacare isn’t a good system. However the US doesn’t have a good system. And the Republicans aren’t trying to do anything to improve it.

  82. //why be content to live under a system which has almost ruined you and your family financially when alternatives are available//

    Because Fox News and conservative politicians and 100 radio bigmouths – all of whom make sure they’d never find themselves in that situation – tell him he should.

  83. Yes.

    US health care has been the victim of vested interest and conservative ideology for many decades.

    In more practical countries, they just found a way to provide proper healthcare for everyone who lives there.

    I’ve never cared whether the cat is black or white, so long as it catches the mice.

  84. “And I agree that the lion story got too much attention.”

    and do you agree that babies’ limbs in petri dishes did not get enough attention?

    can you connect the two situations? what do you conclude?

    Look, one lion killed and it’s a media storm. Human babies’ are dismembered for money by Planned Parenthood and it’s a media blackout.

    hmmm….can you see the propaganda and bias here?

  85. “Black lives matter” for purposes of beating up the police, for political reasons but when the black life is a little baby in a petri dish? Well, according to the biased liberal media, this doesn’t matter.

    There is a reason that some on the Right say that Liberalism is a mental illness.

  86. Look, one lion killed and it’s a media storm. Human babies’ are dismembered for money by Planned Parenthood and it’s a media blackout

    Except ‘Human babies’ are not ‘dismembered for money’. foetal tissue, the end result of perfectly legal pregnancy termination, is used for research purposes with costs for transport etc paid for by the researchers:

    Unspinning the Planned Parenthood Video

    Can you connect the two situations? what do you conclude?

    This is what I conclude as per my comment to Pete Moore above:

    You and others here have used hunting as an apples and oranges comparable to abortion in an attempt to have a stick to beat the ‘liberals’ with. I know a number of women who have terminated their pregnancies, all for varying reasons none of which have been ‘fun’ ‘sport’ or ‘leisure’ all of which hunting has been described. Come back when women terminate pregnancies for the same reason and perhaps then you’ll have a valid comparison

  87. Let’s be a little more honest, Paul. In this day and age of no shame sex and cheap available birth control, women are murdering their unborn babies (euphemistically known as “terminating pregnancy” ) for convenience.

    Before ultrasound, many women and men could believe that prior birth a baby really was a “clump of cells” but this is no longer possible. This is why Planned Parenthood do not allow ultrasounds before abortions.

    I’m not out to shame those who have aborted their unborn. There but for fortune. But it’s time to admit the truth of the situation and stop abortions.

  88. //I’m not out to shame those who have aborted their unborn//

    What, they are murdering defenceless babies every day, and you don’t think they should be shamed? That’s just typical of the cynical live-and-let-live relativist immorality we see so often today.
    Now it seems we’re even refusing to condemn serial murderers!

  89. Let’s be a little more honest, Paul. In this day and age of no shame sex and cheap available birth control, women are murdering their unborn babies (euphemistically known as “terminating pregnancy” ) for convenience

    Yes, let’s indeed be honest Patty:

    I know a number of women who have terminated their pregnancies, all for varying reasons none of which have been ‘fun’ ‘sport’ or ‘leisure’

    Add convenience to that list, each of the women I speak about thought long and hard before they made the decision.

    I’m not out to shame those who have aborted their unborn

    No? branding someone a murderer would be fairly shameful don’t you think?

    What do you suggest we do with all those unaborted unwanted babies?

  90. “I’m not out to shame those who have aborted their unborn.”

    Why not?

    I don’t know about you but when a woman kills her kid I’d like to do a hell of a lot more than shame her.

    It is an appalling act. The murder of the most defenceless members of society. Millions of Baby Ps and Caylee Anthonys every year.

    If that is shameful then nothing is.

  91. Paul you can pull factcheck on this statement all you want.

    Except ‘Human babies’ are not ‘dismembered for money’. foetal tissue, the end result of perfectly legal pregnancy termination, is used for research purposes with costs for transport etc paid for by the researchers:

    It doesn’t change what the American and world public are seeing with their very own eyes.

    There are 30 tapes all over 3hrs a piece that prove without a shadow of a doubt that planned parenthood is selling fetal tissue for profit.

    It’s in living color.

  92. Seamus you do not have the right to tell a woman what she can and can not do with her pregnancy period stop end of conversation.

  93. Bollocks Troll.

    People don’t have a right to kill people. It isn’t “her” pregnancy. It is a child. An abortion is no different than butchering a 2 year old.

  94. What the question is now is not whether they are doing it but where do we go from here?

    A woman has the right by nature to end her pregnancy, it has been this way since Eve.

    The consequences of her action are between her, her god, or her conscience.

    As for what is done with the remains of unborn child there is a lot that we as a society have to say on how it’s handled.

    The mapping of the GNOME opened vast scientific possibilities all of them can use those tissues in their research. So there is a very lucrative market for aborted babies.

  95. There are plenty of things that have “been this way since Eve”, like murder, rape and theft.

    “The consequences of her action are between her, her god, or her conscience.”

    What other murderers’ consequences are between the murderer and God?

    I fail to understand someone who is ok with killing kids but gets their knickers in a twist over what society does with them after they kill them.

  96. It doesn’t change what the American and world public are seeing with their very own eyes

    Is that the edited or unedited version?

    There are 30 tapes all over 3hrs a piece that prove without a shadow of a doubt that planned parenthood is selling fetal tissue for profit.

    There are two tapes, one edited and one uneditied.

    Paul you can pull factcheck on this statement all you want

    It’s called Factcheck for a reason. It forensically deconstructs the lie that ‘Human babies’ are dismembered for money by Planned Parenthood’

    Go read the link and then argue against the points it raises.

    I’d like to do a hell of a lot more than shame her

    Like what Seamus? Volunteer to raise the unwanted baby yourself?

  97. Troll

    I tracked down the earlier conversation. It was a side email discussion with the great Monica after short blog comments with her and you.

    Here is an edited version of her email to me from March 24 2007. I scrubbed the email address and the name of the major US employer who abandoned my friend when he got sick.

    I had mentioned to her that my friend and his wife actually moved to France afterward, where he got much better care than he was receiving in the Atlanta area.

    My point, made here many times over the years, is that Americans should never have tolerated a situation where its citizens go bankrupt over medical costs or where they have cover at the whim of an employer who can abandon them at will.

    Hey, Phantom!

    Thanks for telling me. …… You would think that a huge company like that would take care of its employees, and as for the supervisors and managers who wouldn’t stand up for your friend all I can say is what a bunch of weenies. Most people are weenies I’ve noticed.

    I’m glad that your friend is getting the help he needs – how fortunate for him that he was able to travel to France.

    Monica

  98. “Like what Seamus? Volunteer to raise the unwanted baby yourself?”

    No. I believe society should help parents with their kids. I believe that there should be a system in place for unwanted children. The idea that because their currently isn’t a proper system in place doesn’t justify butchering children.

  99. Seamus I hear what you are saying. I agree on one hand with your view.

    But on the hand that matters is the sad fact that woman have always aborted unwanted children.

    There is nothing that can be done to stop it. A pregnant woman can kill the child she carries at anytime and there is nothing anyone can do to stop her if that is what she has chosen.

    Is wrong to do so yes. That doesn’t change a thing and you can’t legislate it, you can’t prevent it.

    Sorry but that’s nature.

  100. I believe that there should be a system in place for unwanted children

    Then I’ll pose the same question to you as I posed to Patty:

    What do you suggest we do with all those unaborted unwanted babies?

    And please go into as much detail as you wish.

  101. “There is nothing that can be done to stop it. A pregnant woman can kill the child she carries at anytime and there is nothing anyone can do to stop her if that is what she has chosen.”

    That simply isn’t true. Proper punishment of the offense is acceptable. You can stop it in the same way that you stop other murders.

  102. The same thing we currently do with unwanted children. Fostering and adoption

    Children’s homes in Asia, Eastern Europe and South America to name but a few places are already bursting to the seams with kids waiting for adoption.

  103. Paul you don’t even know the story your demanding is false.

    There are Six tapes that have been released so far. There are over 300hrs of recordings.

    Of the Tapes released so far there has been the edited version for airing on television in sound bites and the RAW FOOTAGE of what it was edited from has been posted on the web for all to sww.

    They have posted 3 separate interviews as of today. Six tapes 2 of each interview. Planned Parenthood has been caught in the light and everyone is disgusted and running for the hills.

    They will lose all there government funding before the election.

    They will not be put out of business, abortions are still going to be legal nothing will change except the taxpayer will no longer subsidize it. Hell they just proved how profitable there market can be. There is no need for taxpayer money.

  104. They will lose all there government funding before the election.

    No way.

    Dems are big abortion fans, and they won’t allow this to happen.

  105. That simply isn’t true. Proper punishment of the offense is acceptable. You can stop it in the same way that you stop other murders.

    The voice of a true Neanderthal.

    What ya gonna do boy put the pregnant woman in chains to prevent her ? Or just execute her for doing it?

    A child from the point of conception is a human life. Of that there is no doubt. That life however until separated is the sole Provence of the woman carrying it. God gave them that power. Trust in Gods decision Seamus.

    This issue hits hard on all sides because it is an issue on each of our souls how we face it we are judged on it. Whether by God, our Fellow Man, or just our own Conscience. There is a judgement.

    I see no way for any society or other person from stopping a woman who has chosen to abort. History and fact bears out the truth that babies have been aborted like I said since eve. Ranting about it won’t change it.

    Raise your children to understand that it is wrong is the best and only thing you can do. If you raised them properly they will make good decisions of their own.

  106. There are over 300hrs of recordings

    Deborah Nucatola spoke for over 300 hours? That’s some lunch.

    Dems are big abortion fans

    I don’t know anyone who is pro abortion Phantom.

  107. Phantom, on July 31st, 2015 at 4:42 PM Said:

    They will lose all there government funding before the election.

    No way.

    Dems are big abortion fans, and they won’t allow this to happen.

    Lets make a wger just for shits and giggles… nothing exchanges hands just a bet.

    If these tapes get played they lose their funding.

    Now Phantom you are aware there are already 58 votes in the Senate to end it….

  108. “What ya gonna do boy put the pregnant woman in chains to prevent her ? “

    No.

    If someone commits a crime you punish them. So if someone has an Abortion then put them in prison. If someone helps them have an abortion then put them in prison.

    “A child from the point of conception is a human life. Of that there is no doubt. That life however until separated is the sole Provence of the woman carrying it. God gave them that power. Trust in Gods decision Seamus.”

    Strange that almost every single major religion disagrees with you on that one Troll. I don’t recall God ever given that particular commandment.

    That life is the responsibility of the woman carrying it, not her property or body to do with what ever she wishes.

  109. “Now Phantom you are aware there are already 58 votes in the Senate to end it….”

    Sadly though you need 67 votes in the Senate to end it, and 290 in the House.

  110. Deborah Nucatola spoke for over 300 hours? That’s some lunch.

    are you really that ignorant of this story?

    I’ll bet your mother called you Sunny because you’re so bright…. lol

  111. Paul quick question how many PP Tapes have been released to the Public?

    Part 2 are all of the same PP Executives?

    You have 30 seconds …..

  112. I’ll tell you what Troll, why don’t you post links to the tapes so we can draw our own cobclusions?

  113. God gave woman the power to create life Seamus, he gave her that choice by his very design.

    They tried locking up people just as you say, it didn’t stop anything.

  114. now Paul I expect you to actually view them.

    If you do I’ll see you in about 9hrs. That’s I think how long the full footage links add up to so far.

    The fact is though even though you won’t. Everyone else can just click the link and see the tapes exactly as I described. One for airing and a link for the full footage.

    3 different meetings. 2 for each meating.

    so you’re proven that you have no clue…. as usual

  115. “Proper punishment of the offense is acceptable. You can stop it in the same way that you stop other murders.”

    Agreed, Seamus.

    Troll: Moses didn’t come down from the mountain and say: “What the heck. You guys are gonna sin anyway so just go for it. Murder, theft….you’re gonna do it anyway….it’s human nature. So, just go ahead. Law and order and morality are just too tough to consider.”

  116. Troll: God didn’t give women “choice to abort.” That’s propaganda that we’ve been fed since Roe v. Wade and the Supreme Court gave women the legal right to abort their unborn.

    And we swallowed this propaganda willingly when we all agreed that the unborn “fetus” was a clump of cells and nothing more. The deal is that thanks to ultrasound and now a look at the abortion industry chop shop, we know differently.

  117. Patty

    I never swallowed that propaganda, I have always believed life begins at conception.

    Do I believe we can stop abortion… no

    Would I like to…. yes

    Is it going to stop anytime soon… no

    Can we stop forcing people like you, me, and seamus lived here him paying for it…. Finally YES

    These tapes reveal the ghouls that we have been forced to fund for what they are.

  118. Agreed.

    Also, it is not for me to shame a woman who has already had an abortion – regardless of what I think of it. I don’t pretend to sit in judgment of other women and I think her morality and conscience is between her and God.

  119. my sentiments exactly.

    now break out the marshmellows and will roast them over the flaming ruins of Planned Parenthood.

  120. I don’t know why you think a celebration is in order, Troll. Planned Parenthood,abortion and baby dismemberment is not going anywhere soon.

    Consider this: with only 316 million user, Twitter (per Keyhole) has 60 million users discussing Cecil the Lion.

    Our Federal government is going to commence investigation into the death of Cecil the Lion.

    Meanwhile, Obama has no comment on the PP videos and Obama’s spokesperson says that he is not even sure if Obama has watched the PP videos.

  121. The US has the worst of everything, we are the failure nation of the world

    Troll – you’re very proud of the corporate military’s ability to destroy. Surely that should cheer you up 🙂

    Paul – your ‘fact-checkers’ are funded by the same coterie which funds Planned Parenthood. Besides, I saw the footage and heard what was said. There is no doubt as to what was going on – tissue from aborted babies was being touted for sale, and that’s it.

  122. no Planned Parenthoods government funding is done.

    Only 3 tapes have been released and there are already 58 senate votes to defund.

    There are 30.

  123. Troll – PP doesn’t need state funding as it’s a corporate venture with support from the ‘Foundations’:

    Corporate donors to Planned “Parenthood” abortion-mill

    The following is a list of the corporate sponsors of just one Planned Parenthood — Planned Parenthood Shasta-Diablo in northern California:

    1.3Com Corporation
    2.Abbott Laboratories Fund
    3.Adaptec, Inc.
    4.Adobe Systems, Inc.
    5.ALZA Corporation
    6.AMD – Advanced Micro Devices
    7.American Express Corporation
    8.Amgen Corporation
    9.Aon Corporation
    10.Aspect Global Giving Program
    11.Autodesk, Inc.
    12.Bakar Foundation, Gerson
    13.Bank of America
    14.Barclays Global Investors
    15.Baxter International
    16.Becton Dickinson & Company
    17.Birkenstock Footprint Sandals, Inc.
    18.Brobeck Charitable Foundation
    19.Cadence Design System, Inc.
    20.California HealthCare
    21.California Wellness
    22.Capital Group Companies
    23.Charles Schwab
    24.Chase Manhattan
    25.ChevronTexaco
    26.Chubb & Son, Inc.
    27.Cisco Systems
    28.Citigroup
    29.CMP Media, Inc.
    30.Compton Foundation, Inc.
    31.Computer Associates Int’l, Inc.
    32.Cowell Foundation, S.H.
    33.Del Monte Foods
    34.eBay
    35.Electronic Arts, Inc.
    36.Fannie Mae
    37.Federated Department Stores, Inc.
    38.First Data Corporation
    39.Fleet
    40.Flora Family Foundation
    41.Fremont Group
    42.Gallagher Foundation, Arthur J.
    43.Gap
    44.Genentech, Inc.
    45.General Physics Corporation
    46.General Re Corporation
    47.Georgia-Pacific Corporation
    48.Grainger, Inc.
    49.Haas Fund, Evelyn and Walter Jr.
    50.Hanson, Bridgett, Marcus, Vlahos and Rudy LLP
    51.Harcourt, Inc.
    52.Hewlett Foundation, William & Flora
    53.Household International
    54.IBM
    55.IKON Office Solutions
    56.Illinois Tool Works
    57.Infocom Group
    58.International Data Group, Inc.
    59.Irvine Foundation, James
    60.Joseph Seagram and Sons
    61.Johnson & Johnson
    62.JP Morgan
    63.Kaiser Family Foundation, Henry J.
    64.Lam Research Corporation
    65.Levi Strauss
    66.Macromedia
    67.Macworld Communications, Inc.
    68.Mastercard International
    69.McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.
    70.Merck Company
    71.Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc.
    72.Microsoft Corporation
    73.Millipore
    74.Monsanto Fund
    75.Moore Foundation, Gordon & Betty
    76.Morgan Chase
    77.Morrison & Foerster
    78.National Semiconductor Corp.
    79.Network Associates
    80.Nokia
    81.Northern Trust Company
    82.Olin Corporation
    83.Oracle Corporation
    84.Packard Foundation, David & Lucille
    85.PCW Communications, Inc.
    86.Peninsula Community Foundation
    87.PepsiCo
    88.Pfizer
    89.Providian Financial
    90.Prudential
    91.Quaker Oats
    92.Qualcomm Inc.
    93.RBC Dain Rauscher
    94.Rockefeller Foundation
    95.Rosendin Electric, Inc.
    96.San Jose Mercury News
    97.SBC
    98.Schwab Corporation
    99.Schudder Kemper In
    100.vestments, Inc.
    101.Starbucks
    102.Stuart Foundation
    103.Sun Microsystems
    104.Synopsis
    105.Tandy Corporation
    106.Tenet Healthcare
    107.U.S. Bancorp
    108.UBS Realty Investors LLC
    109.Washington Mutual
    110.West Group
    111.Working Assets Funding Service
    112.Xinet
    113.Yahoo

  124. That’s quite a list of corporate abortion fans. I see they’re “matching gift” merchants.

    Bottom line: It always pays to keep on side with political power, and this is all about keeping the political power sweet.

  125. no kidding Allan that’s the point. Yet we give them a half a billion a year in tax payer money.

    Also these tapes are making the corporate donors run for the tall grass.

  126. The following is a list of the corporate sponsors of just one Planned Parenthood — Planned Parenthood Shasta-Diablo in northern California:

    No it isn’t. It is just a list of companies that have a donation matching program.

  127. Oh for Gods sake.

    Shame on Allan – that’s really a misrepresentation on his part if what Fews says is correct and I bet that Fews is correct…

  128. I find it surprising that, most of the time, when Allan posts his ‘facts’ and ‘evidence’, he is told to “take his meds.” But then occasionally, just occasionally, he posts something which seems to support what others here are saying, and his ‘facts’ and ‘evidence’ are accepted almost without question, leaving it up to a third party (in this case FewsOrange) to point out the fallacy.

    If you are going to accept one of his lists, without question, just because it suits your agenda du jour, then why not accept his other lists? Or is his requirement to ‘take his meds’ based on how close to your own opinion he happens to be?

  129. Phantom – a donation matching program means that any employee who donates to Planned Parenthood shall have his/her donation matched by the corporate employer. Now I’m sure that the corporates and the billionaires’ tax-free ‘foundations’ wouldn’t be matching donations to a program in which they were not in agreement. So, all one need do is open the link provided at 6.54pm and one sees:

    The following employers offer matching gift donations and may match your Planned Parenthood Shasta-Diablo contribution: Please review this list and if you find your employers name, contact your Human Resources department to have your gift matched

    Now Phantom -the list is at 6.54pm: do any of those corporations and ‘foundations’ NOT support abortion and the consequentials as recently seen from released video footage?

  130. A lesson in English:

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/

    donor – a person who gives money or goods to an organisation

    sponsor – to support a person, organization, or activity by giving money, encouragement, or other help

    The employee is the DONOR to Planned Parenthood and the employer (corporate and ‘foundation above) is the SPONSOR of Planned Parenthood – exactly as stated!

    Now, read the text of the posts in question and tell me w=how it differs from the definitions above.

  131. Surely a matching donation programme simply means that your employer agrees to give an equal amount to a registered charity as you the individual has. It is the individual who is choosing to support the charity and as long as the donation is to a legal registered charity and made through the proper official channels , including for tax purposes, then the employer is simply automatically following through on their agreement. The same employer could find itself ‘sponsoring’ an anti-abortion as well as an abortion supporting charity depending on the choices of their individual employees.

  132. Colm – read what is stated, and then think about what you have read. The list of corporates and ‘foundations’ sponsor things of which they approve.

    I’m going on a 10 mile run to raise money for the BNP, and I shall ask for corporate sponsirship: do you think that I’ll get it?

    Phantom, on August 1st, 2015 at 1:51 AM Said:
    Shame on Allan – that’s really a misrepresentation on his part if what Fews says is correct and I bet that Fews is correct…

    There’s Phantom – the gift that keeps on giving 🙂

  133. Matching donations are really an employee benefit.

    You are permitted to get the match up to a certain amount, as repects to any registered charity.

    I’ve never heard of an employer excluding certain charities from the program, though maybe that is done at times.

    Here, the directing of funds to PP appears to have been done by individual employees, not by the ” evil corporations”

  134. Do you’re own damn research, or as usual just talk out your ass

    You’d best stop being abrasive and get a civil tongue back in your head when speaking to me or I’ll respond in kind and make you cry again.

    Now Paul I expect you to actually view them.
    If you do I’ll see you in about 9hrs. That’s I think how long the full footage links add up to so far

    I’ve watched the ‘summary videos of specific undercover meetings’, some twenty eight minutes in total, and can find nothing which contradicts the Factchecker article.

    I, like the overwhelming majority of people I assume, don’t have the time nor inclination to watch an alleged nine hours of interviews. Have you watched them all?.

    But hey, the ‘Centre For Medical Progress’ ( a political organisation not a medical one) is really unbiased and non partisan isn’t it?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Medical_Progress_(political_organization)

    The Center for Medical Progress video campaign is a dishonest attempt to make legal, voluntary and potentially lifesaving tissue donations appear nefarious and illegal. Lawmakers responding by promoting their own anti-choice agenda are rewarding deception and putting women’s health and their constitutionally protected rights at risk

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/opinion/the-campaign-of-deception-against-planned-parenthood

    Back to the drawing board for those who wish to smear Planned Parenthood methinks

    Troll – PP doesn’t need state funding as it’s a corporate venture with support from the ‘Foundations’

    Here’s an idea Allen, instead of attempting to introduce some implied ulterior motive by focusing on funding that this group allegedly receives why not argue on the point at hand, the allegation that ‘Human babies’ are dismembered for money by Planned Parenthood?’

    No it isn’t. It is just a list of companies that have a donation matching program

    As I said, allegedly

    So build more

    Dumping grounds for unwanted children? That sounds suspiciously like an admission that the simplistic ‘fostering and adoption’ ‘solution’ doesn’t work.

  135. I note, with interest, that the Planned Parenthood Website is down whilst ‘undergoing maintenance’. Wonder if that is just another euphemism for ‘abortion with benefits’?

  136. Colm, Phantom –

    Planned Parenthood is a highly political, politicised and politically favoured organisation.

    It might technically be a charity, but that’s politics at work. It’s simply a device for shovelling money at a group which is no charity in the commonly understood sense.

    If I can get an employer to match my donation to these gruesome mass murderers, there’s no reason why an employer shouldn’t match my Arsenal season ticket price.

  137. Wonder if that is just another euphemism for ‘abortion with benefits’?

    Still trying to push the ‘abortion for profit’ myth despite the allegations being decimated?

  138. Planned Parenthood is a highly political, politicised and politically favoured organisation

    What like the Countryside Alliance, foxhunters and all those other ´manly´Conservative groups that the left are trying to emasculate?.

    Tell me Pete, do you have a basis for your allegations against PP or are they simply borne out of the fact that they’re ‘gruesome mass murderers?’

  139. Pete

    I made no comment either in favour or against PP. I am well aware of the scam by which many political organisations left and right get themselves awarded charitable status and I am pretty sure a significant number if not the majority of registered ‘charities’ are no such thing but for various reasons it suits authority and the organisations themselves to have that status. I would certainly approve of a much much tighter definition of the legal term charity especially for tax exemption status.

  140. Paul McMahon –

    PP’s core business is the basis for my allegations. It’s no secret what they do.

    Perhaps you can help me out here. I’m never less than amazed at what “Progressives” will tolerate and sweep under the carpet.

    PP’s business is holy ground. I have no doubt that “Progressives” will resort to violence if it and the abortion industry were ever threatened will closure. Yet it was Margaret Sanger who founded PP and did so much to get the abortion indistry off the ground.

    Margaret Sanger remains a heroine of course to the Left. But why?

    She was a eugenicist who believed that the weak, feeble, inferior and undersirables should be prevented from procreating. She thought that negroes were little higher than monkeys. She worked particularly hard to get abortion into black areas and PP to this day does a roaring trade in killing black children.

    How does all this get forgotten?

  141. Paul – did you really watch the video footage of the baby-bits-for-sale released by anti-abortion activists. The transcript is linked below:

    http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PPFAtranscript072514_final.pdf

    Btw that link to ‘wiki’ shows just how impartial wiki really is 🙂 It’s an impartial souce of reference, yeah? Now, within your impartial link is reference to ‘factcheck.org’ and, as I showed on this site, ‘factcheck.org’ is financed by the same billionaires’ tax-exempt ‘foundations’ as Planned Parenthood – and I invite you to dispute this.

    Phantom, on August 1st, 2015 at 12:21 PM Said:
    Matching donations are really an employee benefit.

    Phantom – that is a very 4th-dimensional way of looking at ‘matching donations’. Could you explain how the employee benefits?

    When I was in Amsterdam recently, I walked past some ‘coffee shops’ 😉 and noticed the imbibers on the internet and I wondered what sort of stuff they would post. I need wonder no more.

  142. Allan

    It is an employee benefit in the sense that the employee sees his or her favourite charity given extra funding to match the funding he or she has already volunteered. You could call it an employer ‘feel good’ benefit to their staff.

  143. PP’s core business is the basis for my allegations. It’s no secret what they do

    Performing absolutely legal medical procedures is ‘murder?’ Okay.

    I have no doubt that “Progressives” will resort to violence if it and the abortion industry were ever threatened will closure

    What like those right wingers who have planted bombs, maimed, killed and generally intimidated and bullied people like PP?

    I have no doubt you’re incorrect in your presumption.

    Margaret Sanger remains a heroine of course to the Left. But why?

    Is she? I s’pose I’d be considered ‘left’ here and she’s no hero of mine.

    You seem to be trying to conflate the views of one of the founders of PP with those who are pro choice.That’s akin to suggesting that because the one of the founders of Sinn Féin, Arthur Griffith, was a Monarchist SF is a Monarchist party.

    PP to this day does a roaring trade in killing black children

    Would that slot in perfectly with your views of stopping the savage’s invasion?

  144. Colm – the employee receives no monetary gain. Nonetheless, as we shall agree, the employee is a DONOR and the employer is the SPONSOR – unless you wish to define it in another manner. And since you’re here, how do you reckon I’d get on with asking corporates to sponsor my 10-mile run for the BNP or a charity which aligns itself with the BNP’s political core i.e. stopping immigration?

  145. Performing absolutely legal medical procedures is ‘murder?’ Okay.

    Come on Paul. Despite that plastic Irish passport you can still speak English straight. Infanticide is a “legal medical procedure” like a shovel is a manual excavation implement.

    I asked you why Margaret Sanger remains a heroine over in Loony Land. I didn’t say she’s a heroine of yours, but you do share opinions with nutter Leftists. Come on, it’s pretty clear that the Left will erase most of someone’s inconvenient history to keep them on a pedestal, isn’t it?

    Would that slot in perfectly with your views of stopping the savage’s invasion?

    Well I didn’t say that PP was all bad.

  146. Paul – did you really watch the video footage of the baby-bits-for-sale released by anti-abortion activists. The transcript is linked below:

    http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PPFAtranscript072514_final.pdf

    Btw that link to ‘wiki’ shows just how impartial wiki really is It’s an impartial souce of reference, yeah? Now, within your impartial link is reference to ‘factcheck.org’ and, as I showed on this site, ‘factcheck.org’ is financed by the same billionaires’ tax-exempt ‘foundations’ as Planned Parenthood – and I invite you to dispute this.

  147. Allan

    With a donation matching programme the employee is the donor and so is the employer. Nobody is sponsoring anything. If your employer has a contractual agreement with their employees to match registered charity donations, and you donate to a BNP supporting organisation that has charitable status then yes your employer must match your donation. It doesn’t mean your employer supports the BNP any more than employer donations to PP under this scheme means they are political supporters of PP.

  148. Allan 306

    The employee absolutely benefits in that every dollar that the employee sends to a charity that the employee believes in is doubled, up to a certain point.

    The employee doesn’t get additional tax or other economic benefit. But their gift has twice the clout.

    I think that every employer shown would also match gifts to Catholic Charities, which is resolutely anti abortiion.

  149. Colm – you are missing the point completely. Do you believe that a corporation or billionaires’ tax-exempt ‘foundation’ (yes – taxes really are for the little people) would allow so-called gift matching to a cause or organisation of which it did not approve? Do you really believe that Barclays Global Investors would be seen to have funded as a donor (as defined by you at 3.37pm) the BNP or any related group? In the matter under discussion, it is seen that the corporates and ‘foundations’ as shown at 6.54pm are donors (as you define at 3.37pm) to one of the main abortion centres in California and it is inconceivable that this would not have been approved by each of these organisations.

    Phantom – how does the employee benefit? The gift has twice the value but the recipient is the abortion group so how does the employee benefit?

  150. Right, the employee benefits when his employer gives away money which could be invested back into the firm.

    That’s some benefit.

  151. Pete – excellent point at 7.59pm I await the cutting and incisive response from one of ATW’s greatest minds as he showed at 1.51am – as if….. 🙂

    As we now know, corporations and the billionaires’ tax-exempt ‘foundations’ are pro-abortion. Given that they own pretty much everything then that they own the law should come as no surprise:

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/31/judge-blocks-release-of-new-video-by-center-for-medical-progress-read-groups-response-to-charges/

    A federal judge on Friday blocked the release of additional recordings captured by the group behind a series of undercover Planned Parenthood videos.

    The move came hours after after the National Abortion Federation filed a request for an injunction and restraining order against the Center for Medical Progress in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California.

    Judge William Orrick in San Fransisco granted a temporary restraining order after it was argued the footage was captured in an unethical and unlawful manner. The National Abortion Federation also contended the release of new footage could endanger individuals captured on video.

    It’s interesting that it’s being argued by the abortionists that the footage should be blocked because it “was captured in an unethical and unlawful manner”. The footage shows bits of baby tissue being discussed at point of sale and is damning of the entire abortion industry. Anybody who doubts the scale of the aborted baby industry shoul read the transcript provided by me at 3.06pm, especially pages 17 – 19.

  152. And follow the money…….

    Democratic Members of Congress Want the Group Behind Planned Parenthood Videos Investigated

    On Wednesday, four members of Congress sent a letter to U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch and California Attorney General Kamala Harris requesting that they launch an investigation into the Center for Medical Progress.
    In a joint statement about the letter, Reps. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill.; Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif.; Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y.; and Yvette Clarke, D-N.Y., say the “elaborate scheme” merits investigation.

    “This is a new low, even for anti-abortion activists who will stop at nothing in their effort to undermine a woman’s right to choose,” Schakowsky said. “I believe the Center for Medical Progress may have broken the law in developing and executing this unbelievably elaborate and troubling scheme, and all Americans should have concerns about that. I hope that Attorneys General Lynch and Harris will investigate this case.”

    According to data provided by the Center for Responsive Politics, during the 2014 election cycle, Schakowsky received $3,830 toward her campaign from Planned Parenthood.

    Not only are they morally corrupt, they are financially corrupt too. There is nothing good or decent about the filth in this intrigue.

  153. Still following the money…..

    http://dailysignal.com/2015/07/21/planned-parenthood-spent-679596-in-2014-to-help-elect-these-candidates/

    Planned Parenthood donated $679,596 through its PACs and affiliates to pro-choice candidates in the 2014 election cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a research group that tracks money in U.S. politics.
    The Center for Responsive Politics compiled the data using figures released by the Federal Election Commission and the Internal Revenue Service.
    Here are the biggest recipients of funds from Planned Parenthood:
    1.Sen. Ed Markey, D-Mass., received $22,290.
    2.Democrat Michelle Nunn, who ran unsuccessfully against Sen. David Perdue, R-Ga., received $16,550.
    3.Rep. Tim Bishop, D-N.Y., who was unseated in the 2014 election, received $16,200.
    4.Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, D-N.H., received $15,999.
    5.Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., received $15,299.
    6.Alison Lundergan Grimes, Kentucky’s Democratic secretary of state who unsuccessfully challenged Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, received $14,350.
    7.Former Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colo., who lost his re-election bid, received $14,200.
    8.Former Sen. Kay Hagan, D-N.C., also unseated in the 2014 election, received $12,811.
    9.Sen. Jeff Merkley, D-Ore., received $10,999.
    10.Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick, D-Ariz., received $10,850.
    11.Sen. Gary Peters, D-Mich., received $10,499.
    12.Rep. Kyrsten Sinema, D-Ariz., received $10,300.
    13.Rep. Marc Veasey, D-Texas, received $10,300.
    14.Rep. Scott Peters, D-Calif., received $10,291.
    15.Former Rep. Dan Maffei, D-N.Y., who lost his re-election bid in 2014, received $10,250.
    16.Sen. Mark Warner, D-Va., received $10,057.
    17.Reps. Julia Brownley, D-Calif.; Lois Capps, D-Calif.; Elizabeth Esty, D-Conn.; Sean Patrick Maloney, D-N.Y.; Patrick Murphy, D-Fla.; and Raul Ruiz, D-Calif., and former Reps. Carol Shea-Porter, D-N.H., and Joe Garcia, D-Fla., each received $10,000.
    According to the Center for Responsive Politics, the lone Republican recipient of Planned Parenthood funds was Rep. Richard Hanna, R-N.Y., who received $2,823.

    Now Planned Parenthood is a charity, yes?

  154. Pete Moore, on August 1st, 2015 at 7:59 PM Said:
    Right, the employee benefits when his employer gives away money which could be invested back into the firm.
    That’s some benefit.

    Yes of course they do. You seem to have problems with understanding money. It doubles the amount of a contribution. I regard this as a huge plus when I do it.

    This, along with employee salaries, medical / dental benefits could have been ” invested back in the firm ” but you do have to pay employees something if you want them to work for you. The contribution match is effectively part of the employees pay. Its a good thing that workers like.

  155. Pete

    Why do you regard the donations given by companies to charities as a negative thing which harms the productivity of the company. Haven’t you always argued that society works best when private voluntary charity takes precedence over ‘state theft’

  156. Phantom – are you saying that the employee who donates money (donor) to the abortion industry ‘benefits’ by feeling good when the employer also donates (donor) the same amount of money? In other words, the ‘benefit’ isn’t a tangible one such as monetary gain or equivalent but is an intangible such ‘feel good’.

  157. Colm, on August 2nd, 2015 at 11:08 AM Said:
    Pete

    Why do you regard the donations given by companies to charities as a negative thing which harms the productivity of the company

    Colm – did you see my post at 8.41pm and 8.50pm. If you saw them, did you read them? To assist you, I’ll describe the money flow.

    The money goes from employee (donor) and billionaire (donor) to the ‘charity’, then from the ‘charity’ to the politician, and then the politician starts to take measures to protect the ‘charity’ from inwanted attention. There are words to describe this process but ‘charity’ is not ususally one of them, unless you wish to re-define ‘charity’.

  158. And it gets worse:

    http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/31/obama-appointee-blocks-more-video-releases-by-group-behind-planned-parenthood-sting/

    A federal judge late Friday granted a temporary restraining order against the release of recordings made at an annual meeting of abortion providers. The injunction is against the Center for Medical Progress, the group that has unveiled Planned Parenthood’s participation in the sale of organs harvested from aborted children.

    Judge William H. Orrick, III, granted the injunction just hours after the order was requested by the National Abortion Federation.

    Orrick was nominated to his position by hardline abortion supporter President Barack Obama. He was also a major donor to and bundler for President Obama’s presidential campaign. He raised at least $200,000 for Obama and donated $30,800 to committees supporting him, according to Public Citizen.

    But the worst bit isn’t the money trail from Orrick to Obama to Judge Orrick – that’s just standard corruption. This bit below is the worst:

    David Daleiden, the journalist behind the Center for Medical Progress videos, told CNN earlier today that the reason why Stem Express filed suit against release of a video of their meeting with him is because they admitted to receiving fully intact fetuses from abortion clinics. Daleiden said those conversations may have shown “prima facie evidence of born-alive infants.”

    Prima facie evidence of born-alive infants subsequently killed is murder, and that’s what the judge should have pursued. The corruption within the Establishment is putrid.

  159. I wonder if the reporters took the precaution of making copies, and storing them in multiple locations

  160. Phantom, on August 2nd, 2015 at 5:22 PM Said:
    I wonder if the reporters took the precaution of making copies, and storing them in multiple locations

    I would bet that they have 🙂

  161. Paul – did you really watch the video footage of the baby-bits-for-sale released by anti-abortion activists. The transcript is linked below

    (Sighs)

    I’ll repeat this again just in case you missed it.

    I’ve watched the ‘summary videos of specific undercover meetings’, some twenty eight minutes in total, and can find nothing which contradicts the Factchecker article.
    I, like the overwhelming majority of people I assume, don’t have the time nor inclination to watch an alleged nine hours of interviews. Have you watched them all?.

    No need to provide the transcripts as they’re available in the link Troll provides.

    Btw that link to ‘wiki’ shows just how impartial wiki really is 🙂 It’s an impartial souce of reference, yeah? Now, within your impartial link is reference to ‘factcheck.org’

    WHAT??? ALLEN COMPLAINING ABOUT PARTISAN AND BIASED SUPPORTING EVIDENCE???? HAHAHAHAHAHA,
    My life is complete.

    Allen, there are some thirty one links referenced on the Wiki page, why did you just zero in on one?

    Colm – you are missing the point completely. Do you believe that a corporation or billionaires’ tax-exempt ‘foundation’ (yes – taxes really are for the little people) would allow so-called gift matching to a cause or organisation of which it did not approve?

    You realise that the Center for Medical Progress is also a tax exempt charity which accepts ‘gifts’ don’t you?

    http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CMP501c3letter.pdf

    Does that mean that they are also part of the implied conspiracy?

  162. Paul – does the Center for Medical Progress receive money from the billionaires’ club, as shown on the links provided? Does the Center for Medical Progress donate money to Congressmen who then act in its interests? Does the Center for Medical Progress have assistance from judges appointed by President Obama in gratitude for the monies donated by said appointee? Does the Center for medical progress kill born-alive babies then sell on the organs to whoever?

  163. I don’t know but why not address the issues and hand rather than introduce some opaque implication regarding tax exemption and charity status.

    Could you also tell us exactly what you’re implying with the foundations of your conspiracy theory?

  164. A@A helpfully explains that it wasn’t a list of doners to PP.
    The following employers offer matching gift donations and may match your Planned Parenthood Shasta-Diablo contribution

  165. Paul – I’ll run through the salient points of the thread and indicate the times of posting so that you may go directly there yourself given that you obviously haven’t read anything pertinent. As you haven’t noted, the affair of Planned Parenthood has gone beyond the simplistic pro/anti-abortion difference into the realm of corruption and possibly murder.

    At 4.25pm, Paul cites ‘factcheck.org’ as a debunker of the baby-bits-for-sale scandal.

    Paul McMahon, on July 31st, 2015 at 4:25 PM Said:

    It’s called Factcheck for a reason. It forensically deconstructs the lie that ‘Human babies’ are dismembered for money by Planned Parenthood’

    A@A had read the transcripts of the records of the PP sales pitch and concluded that there was no doubt about PP’s complicity in selling baby-bits. The question then arose as to why ‘factcheck.org’ would have the chutzpah to contest a matter so clear-cut. Follow the money:

    Allan@Aberdeen, on July 31st, 2015 at 6:51 PM Said:

    Paul – your ‘fact-checkers’ are funded by the same coterie which funds Planned Parenthood.

    On opening ‘factcheck.org’ site, one reads that the funders include the Flora Foundation, the Flora being Flora Hewlett. On going to check who assists in donating/sponsoring/funding PP, one sees

    Allan@Aberdeen, on July 31st, 2015 at 6:54 PM Said:
    40. Flora Foundation
    52. Hewlett Foundation William and Flora

    Paul then uses Wikipedia 🙂 as an source impartial source on the matter which again cites ‘factcheck.org’ as the reference, omitting the cross-funding with PP, and Paul sees nothing wrong with that.

    At 8.33pm A@A shows a dangerous step being taken which shows who owns the law:

    Allan@Aberdeen, on August 1st, 2015 at 8:33 PM Said:

    A federal judge on Friday blocked the release of additional recordings captured by the group behind a series of undercover Planned Parenthood videos.

    The move came hours after after the National Abortion Federation filed a request for an injunction and restraining order against the Center for Medical Progress in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California.

    Judge William Orrick in San Francisco granted a temporary restraining order after it was argued the footage was captured in an unethical and unlawful manner. The National Abortion Federation also contended the release of new footage could endanger individuals captured on video.

    At 8.41pm, Congressmen join in the attack against Medical Progress – but why?

    Allan@Aberdeen, on August 1st, 2015 at 8:41 PM Said:

    On Wednesday, four members of Congress sent a letter to U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch and California Attorney General Kamala Harris requesting that they launch an investigation into the Center for Medical Progress.
    In a joint statement about the letter, Reps. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill.; Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif.; Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y.; and Yvette Clarke, D-N.Y., say the “elaborate scheme” merits investigation.

    “This is a new low, even for anti-abortion activists who will stop at nothing in their effort to undermine a woman’s right to choose,” Schakowsky said. “I believe the Center for Medical Progress may have broken the law in developing and executing this unbelievably elaborate and troubling scheme, and all Americans should have concerns about that. I hope that Attorneys General Lynch and Harris will investigate this case.”

    According to data provided by the Center for Responsive Politics, during the 2014 election cycle, Schakowsky received $3,830 toward her campaign from Planned Parenthood.

    This shows that a member of Congress received funding from a ‘charity’ funded by ‘Foundations’ which are owned by the billionaires who own almost everything – and it gets worse at 8.50pm:

    Planned Parenthood donated $679,596 through its PACs and affiliates to pro-choice candidates in the 2014 election cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a research group that tracks money in U.S. politics

    And now, with ‘judge’ Orrick, at 5.15pm, one reads that Orrick donated $200,000 to Obama’s campaigns and that the footage which he blocked includes discussions of the sale of tissues from born-alive babies – and that’s murder.

    Now Paul, you’ve thrown up plenty of chaff yet you have disputed nothing of the case made above. Here are points which I put to you:

    1. Planned parenthood receives funding from the billionaires foundations and their corporations
    2. factcheck.org receives funding from the same ‘foundations’ which finance Planned Parenthood
    3. Planned parenthood funds certain members of Congress
    4. Certain members of Congress are demanding investigation of the Center for Medical Progress
    5. The judge who has blocked release of damning footage was appointed by president Obama, same ‘judge’ having donated at least $200,000 to Obama’s political campaigns.
    6. The footage is said to contain evidence of born-alive babies being used for tissue trading – and that’s murder which explains why it was blocked.

    Paul – this has gone beyond abortion. Don’t you see anything wrong with this, seriously?

  166. Allen, you have built a shaky foundation by interconnecting a number of disparate very tenuous links. Let’s have a look at your numbered points above:

    1. It is standard practice for NGOs and charities to seek source funding externally. You seem to be implying that these donors have an agenda or control behind the groups they fund. Please state clearly what this insinuation is and evidence you have to support it.

    2. There are thirty one reference links to that Wiki article. Why did you only use one in attempting to undermine its credibiity?

    3. Like point 1 it’s standard practice for political parties in the States to accept donations from lobby groups etc as is the case in most western political systems. Have a look at the party in government in your own country:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2011/09/30/the-biggest-conservative-donors-from-beyond-the-square-mile/

    as while as the political party that you used to support:

    https://www.bnp.org.uk/donations/cards

    Is it controlled by an aristocrat and his half Kosovan/ half Serbian wife?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1224215/Revealed-The-BNPs-biggest-donor-Serbian-wife-thinks-party-bankrolls.html

    Does it also mean the reverse in terms of the CMP is tax exempt from the government it means that the government controls the CMP?

    4. Are they ‘demanding’ an investigation into the CMP for their unethical actions (see the ‘biased’ Wiki article and its external links for further info on this) As the CMP has tax exempt status under the Dept of Treasury. If the CMP is bein unethical doesn’t Congress have a duty to investigate it because of its tax exempt status?

    5. This is so incredulous it warrants no response.

    6. Is said to contain evidence Is said to….’nuff said.

    And while we’re on the subject of ‘supporting evidence’ and bias:

    The Daily Signal is the multimedia news organization of The Heritage Foundation. We’ll respect your inbox and keep you informed

    What??? a ‘foundation’???? but just who are the Heritage Foundation?

    http://www.heritage.org/about

    and

    http://www.heritage.org/about/financials

    Oh dear.

    The Blaze? Surely not the same Blaze created by ex Fox News and Conservative commentator Glenn Beck?

    Impartial? Unbiased?

    A@A had read the transcripts of the records of the PP sales pitch and concluded that there was no doubt about PP’s complicity in selling baby-bits

    Please transcribe the relevant parts of the transcripts in context which lead you to this conclusion so that we may form our own.

    Now again, why not deal with the matter in hand regarding ‘babies being murdered for profit’ or failing that, at the very least, clarify the oblique insinuation that you’re attempting to construct.

  167. There are times when these organisations do not do themselves any favours.

    PETA calls for Walter Palmer to be ‘hanged’ for killing Cecil the lion

    Here is the official statement from PETA co-founder and President Ingrid Newkirk:

    Hunting is a coward’s pastime. If, as has been reported, this dentist and his guides lured Cecil out of the park with food so as to shoot him on private property, because shooting him in the park would have been illegal, he needs to be extradited, charged, and, preferably, hanged. To get a thrill at the cost of a life, this man gunned down a beloved lion, Cecil with a high-powered weapon. All wild animals are beloved by their own mates and infants, but to hunters like this overblown, over-privileged little man, who lack empathy, understanding, and respect for living creatures, they are merely targets to kill, decapitate, and hang up on a wall as a trophy. The photograph of this dentist, smiling over the corpse of another animal, who, like Cecil, wanted only to be left in peace, will disgust every caring soul in the world.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/30/peta-calls-for-walter-palmer-to-be-hanged-for-killing-cecil-the-lion/

  168. Paul – the point put at 10.48am, your take (P) and my response (A), in that order

    1. Planned parenthood receives funding from the billionaires foundations and their corporations

    1. (P) It is standard practice for NGOs and charities to seek source funding externally. You seem to be implying that these donors have an agenda or control behind the groups they fund. Please state clearly what this insinuation is and evidence you have to support it.

    1. (A) the list at 6.54pm shows corproations and ‘foundations’ (Note to Paul – the foundations are owned by billionaires who directly, or through their ‘foundations’, also own the corporations) which donate/sponsor/finance abortion. This is because they support abortion. These entities do not support anti-abortion groups, although I invite you to show me that they do.

    2. factcheck.org receives funding from the same ‘foundations’ which finance Planned Parenthood

    2. (P) There are thirty one reference links to that Wiki article. Why did you only use one in attempting to undermine its credibiity?

    2. (A) Paul – I only needed one point to be made and this is it noting that you refuse to challenge it – it’s a very serious point: MONEY, and the trail. Factcheck.org does indeed receive funding from the same ‘foundations’ which finance Planned Parenthood

    3. Planned parenthood funds certain members of Congress

    3. (P) Like point 1 it’s standard practice for political parties in the States to accept donations from lobby groups etc….

    3. (A) Planned Parenthood is a ‘charity’. What are charities doing buying members of Congress?

    4. Certain members of Congress are demanding investigation of the Center for Medical Progress

    4. (P) Are they ‘demanding’ an investigation into the CMP for their unethical actions (see the ‘biased’ Wiki article and its external links for further info on this)

    4. (A) yes – the article is biased because the funding is from the same source as that of Planned Parenthood. The members of Congress demanding action against CMP are paid by Planned Parenthood. Do I really have to explain the ethical problems here?

    5. The judge who has blocked release of damning footage was appointed by president Obama, same ‘judge’ having donated at least $200,000 to Obama’s political campaigns.

    5 (P) This is so incredulous it warrants no response.

    5. (A) http://www.citizen.org/whitehouseforsale/bundler.cfm?Bundler=25478

    6. The footage is said to contain evidence of born-alive babies being used for tissue trading – and that’s murder which explains why it was blocked.

    6. (P) Is said to contain evidence Is said to….’nuff said.

    6. (A) Then why is the footage impounded at an instruction by the corruption-appointed ‘judge’? See link at point 5 (A).

  169. Allen, you’re latest ‘rebuttal’ is largely a rehash of your previous points with nothing new added so I’ll just skim them:

    1. The Daily Signal which you use to support an allegation is one of those foundations that you speak about:

    The Daily Signal is the multimedia news organization of The Heritage Foundation

    http://www.heritage.org/about

    http://www.heritage.org/about/financials

    2. Factchecker is only one reference, there are an additional thirty references. Was that the only link you could find in attempting to establish a tenuous link between two separate organisations in order to try and undermine the article?

    3. Is the BNP, the party you used to support, controlled by an aristocrat and his half Kosovan/ half Serbian wife?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1224215/Revealed-The-BNPs-biggest-donor-Serbian-wife-thinks-party-bankrolls.html

    Does it also mean the reverse in terms of the CMP is tax exempt from the government it means that the government financially controls the CMP?

    4. I suspect that Congress are ‘demanding’ an investigation because of the unethical manner in which the CMP attained their videos and as CMP are a tax exempt charity they have a duty to do this. How many of the Congressmen ‘demanding’ investigation have allegedly recieved donations from PP?

    5. Ridiculous. What does your link imply? Please make the case

    6. Is said to contain evidence Is said to….

    As requested previously; please transcribe transcribe in context or and least reference by page the relevant parts of the transcripts that you allegedly read which lead you to this conclusion so that we may form our own.

    Go into as much detail as you wish but please answer my queries rather than rehash what you have previously said or attempted smoke and mirrors by answering questions by asking more questions.

  170. I haven’t had the time or ability to read through both of your arguments, but here is my two cents.

    You both have good points, Factchecker receives money from the groups that support the dogma of the left, Daily Signal IS the Heritage Foundation.

    The Groups supporting Factchecker are groups funded by Soros and other extremist organizations. The Heritage Foundation can be considered a Conservative Extremist Foundation. It was started by the people that did the research for Ronald Reagan.

    Full disclosure: I use Heritage and the daily signal in a lot of my posts. I am also a lifetime member of Heritage.

    What you are missing is non of that matters.

    What matters is Planned Parenthood is selling body parts, this goes against the American culture. They can attack the people all they want that made the videos, it doesn’t matter.

    It can be plainly seen that PP is selling body parts. Politicians are running for cover because of the visceral reaction of the public on both sides of the isle.

    Abortion isn’t going away, but PP is going to lose it’s government funding.

  171. The Groups supporting Factchecker are groups funded by Soros and other extremist organization

    I was wondering how long it would be before the bogeyman’s name cropped up.

    What you are missing is non of that matters

    Thank you Troll, I have consistently asked Allen to address the issue at hand rather than try to misdirect this away and attempt to construct some ulterior conspiracy.

    What matters is Planned Parenthood is selling body parts
    It can be plainly seen that PP is selling body parts

    That’s the salient point: neither of which allegaetions above are true.

  172. Paul two points

    1 Soros is the Bogeyman.

    2 You may be blind or not able to comprehend that the videos prove PP is selling body parts, but that is your own perception problem.

    Today the fifth tape was released where they are discussing the parts they are selling with trays of the parts right in front of them.

    I say this not to insult in any way, but your lack of understanding of what these tapes are showing, and the American reaction to them is a lack of your understanding of the American culture.

  173. 1. Yes he is, he’s the bogeyman Rightworld pull out of the bag to attempt to discredit and tarnish those individuals/groups/campaigns that they don’t agree with.

    2. Troll, I haven’t seen any evidence to prove this although admittedly I haven’t watched the whole nine hours of interviews. If anyone has and can reference the transcript pages where this is proven I’ll have a look at them.

    I say this not to insult in any way, but your lack of understanding of what these tapes are showing, and the American reaction to them is a lack of your understanding of the American culture

    I’m glad you’re not being insulting. Stay in that mode and we’ll have no problems.

    I’m the first to admit that I don’t understand every aspect of American culture but I’d also respectfully suggest that you’re not in a position to speak for a nation of almost three hundred and nineteen million people.

    The NYT op piece that I linked to previously would disagree with your assertion.

  174. Paul – the point put at 10.48am, your first take (P1) and my first response (A1), then your 2nd response if there is one (P2) and my response (A2):

    1. Planned parenthood receives funding from the billionaires foundations and their corporations

    1. (P) It is standard practice for NGOs and charities to seek source funding externally. You seem to be implying that these donors have an agenda or control behind the groups they fund. Please state clearly what this insinuation is and evidence you have to support it.

    1. (A) the list at 6.54pm shows corproations and ‘foundations’ (Note to Paul – the foundations are owned by billionaires who directly, or through their ‘foundations’, also own the corporations) which donate/sponsor/finance abortion. This is because they support abortion. These entities do not support anti-abortion groups, although I invite you to show me that they do.

    1. (P2) The Daily Signal which you use to support an allegation is one of those foundations that you speak about.

    1.(A2) The Daily Signal is an internet site, and not an anti-abortion group. It would be interesting to see ‘foundation’ support for anti-abortion groups and if you can show that, then kudos to you. Nonetheless, what the Daily Signal stated is true: members of Congress are funded by Planned parthood and these members act in the interests of Planned Parenthood – that’s corruption.

    2. factcheck.org receives funding from the same ‘foundations’ which finance Planned Parenthood

    2. (P1) There are thirty one reference links to that Wiki article. Why did you only use one in attempting to undermine its credibiity?

    2. (A1) Paul – I only needed one point to be made and this is it noting that you refuse to challenge it – it’s a very serious point: MONEY, and the trail. Factcheck.org does indeed receive funding from the same ‘foundations’ which finance Planned Parenthood

    2. (P2) Factchecker is only one reference, there are an additional thirty references. Was that the only link you could find in attempting to establish a tenuous link between two separate organisations in order to try and undermine the article?

    2. (A2) Paul – I only needed one point to be made and this is it noting that you still refuse to challenge it – it’s a very serious point: MONEY, and the trail. Factcheck.org does indeed receive funding from the same ‘foundations’ which finance Planned Parenthood. Does ‘factchecker’ not mention that? Shame.

    3. Planned parenthood funds certain members of Congress

    3. (P1) Like point 1 it’s standard practice for political parties in the States to accept donations from lobby groups etc….

    3. (A1) Planned Parenthood is a ‘charity’. What are charities doing buying members of Congress?

    3. (P2) Is the BNP, the party you used to support, controlled by an aristocrat and his half Kosovan/ half Serbian wife?

    3. (A2) the refusal or inability to answer the question is duly noted. The dievrsion attempt is also noted. The question beyond your abilities is: Planned Parenthood is a ‘charity’. What are charities doing buying members of Congress?

    4. Certain members of Congress are demanding investigation of the Center for Medical Progress

    4. (P1) Are they ‘demanding’ an investigation into the CMP for their unethical actions (see the ‘biased’ Wiki article and its external links for further info on this)

    4. (A1) yes – the article is biased because the funding is from the same source as that of Planned Parenthood. The members of Congress demanding action against CMP are paid by Planned Parenthood. Do I really have to explain the ethical problems here?

    4. (P2) I suspect that Congress are ‘demanding’ an investigation because of the unethical manner in which the CMP attained their videos and as CMP are a tax exempt charity they have a duty to do this. How many of the Congressmen ‘demanding’ investigation have allegedly recieved donations from PP?

    4. (A2)

    Allan@Aberdeen, on August 1st, 2015 at 8:41 PM Said:

    On Wednesday, four members of Congress sent a letter to U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch and California Attorney General Kamala Harris requesting that they launch an investigation into the Center for Medical Progress.
    In a joint statement about the letter, Reps. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill.; Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif.; Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y.; and Yvette Clarke, D-N.Y., say the “elaborate scheme” merits investigation.

    As we see from the link, all of the Congressmen who would act in favour of Planned Parenthood have received ‘support’ from the abortion industry:

    https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.php?ind=Q15&cycle=2014&recipdetail=H&mem=Y

    5. The judge who has blocked release of damning footage was appointed by president Obama, same ‘judge’ having donated at least $200,000 to Obama’s political campaigns.

    5 (P1) This is so incredulous it warrants no response.

    5. (A1) http://www.citizen.org/whitehouseforsale/bundler.cfm?Bundler=25478

    5. (P2) 5. Ridiculous. What does your link imply? Please make the case

    5. (A2) The link at (A1) shows that William H Orrick raised $230,000 for barack Obama’s 2008 election campaign. Orrick was then appointed as a judge, and one of his judgements is linked at 5.15pm where he blocked release of damning footage against Planned Parenthood. That cycle used to be called corruption.

    6. The footage is said to contain evidence of born-alive babies being used for tissue trading – and that’s murder which explains why it was blocked.

    6. (P1) Is said to contain evidence Is said to….’nuff said.

    6. (A1) Then why is the footage impounded at an instruction by the corruption-appointed ‘judge’? See link at point 5 (A).

    6. (P2) Is said to contain evidence Is said to….

    As requested previously; please transcribe transcribe in context or and least reference by page the relevant parts of the transcripts that you allegedly read which lead you to this conclusion so that we may form our own.

    6. (A2) Paul – at 3.06pm are the transcripts which I request that you read. If I summarise it, you’ll say that “it’s out of context” and we’ve been here before so please stop playing games. Anybody who doubts the scale of the aborted baby industry should read the transcript especially pages 17 – 19.

  175. Oh for goodness sake Allen. I asked you to answer my queries rather than rehash what you have previously said or attempted smoke and mirrors by answering questions by asking more questions.

    And rehash your previous and answer questions with questions is exactly what you have done. I’ll go through this briefly in the hope that you come out of the trenches and actually attempt debate.

    1. Daily Signal is an internet site, and not an anti-abortion group.

    It’s also a ‘foundation’. It would seem some foundations are more equal than others?

    2. One point in a list of thirty one discredits verification of an article?

    3. PP is a charity and a lobby group, presumably they make donations to politicians in order to influence legislation which dictates their legal parameters of their operation. Now, please, Why was an English aristocrat with a half Kosovan / half Serbian wife the single biggest funder to a political party you once supported?

    4. A faceless internet site states that Abortion Policy/Pro-Abortion Rights: Money to Congress has been received from the ‘abortion industry’ and you imply that this is then the reason for ‘demanding’ an investigation into the CMP rather than the accusation that the CMP acted inappropriately or unethically and as the CMP is a ‘tax exempt charity’ Congress has a duty to the tax payer to investigate any allegations:

    Prove your insinuation

    And anyway, if the CMP hasn’t acted inappropriately what has it got to fear from an investigation?

    5. Incredulous attempt to suggest that because a Judge was appointed by the Obama administration he was instructed serve an injunction on a video. A regurgitation of the innuendo contained in point number four.

    Again, prove your insinuation.

    6. I’ve read pages 17 – 19 linked at bottom here:

    Investigative Footage

    and despite the CMP’s heavy type can find absolutely no evidence the PP sells aborted foetus tissue for profit.

    I’ve continually asked you Allen to debate the issue as hand rather than construct some elaborate interconnected theory which is rife with innuendo but sparse of proof. If you insist in continuing on this wild goose chase I’ll have to review my further commenting on this post with you.

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