90 2 mins 14 yrs

I see that it is being speculated that former UK PM Tony Blair is to convert to Islam.

Sorry, I meant Roman Catholicism! The Catholic newspaper The Tablet says the service of conversion will take place this month. Mr Blair has regularly attended Catholic services in recent years, both with his family and alone. He has also visited Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessor John Paul II. The Tablet said Mr Blair has received instruction from two priests, RAF chaplain John Walsh and Father Mark O’Toole, the cardinal’s secretary.

Now, I have no problem with Blair converting to whatever faith he wishes. But I fail to understand WHY, if he is so keen on the RC faith, he failed to do so when he was British PM. Was he afraid to do so, and if so, why? Is this another example of Blair opportunism? How can he reconcile his liberal values with those of the Church he seeks to join?

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90 thoughts on “A QUESTION OF FAITH….

  1. Damn, you nearly had me worried there david. At least it’s Roman Catholicism, not that world-wide, sectarian religion that thinks it right and everyone else is wrong, Islam.

  2. ….on the issue regarding why Tony did not convert sooner, Well that would’ve made the British public question whether he was taking orders from the Pope every time he visited the Vatican.

    The Vatican, the Pope and it’s Priests has their own laws which claim not to be subject to the law of the land. Europe has it’s own laws, but Europe’s laws make a mockery of justice and anyone with an ounce of sense can see that these laws are too liberal and will lead europe into a state on anarchy. Step forward the Vatican!

  3. I think a lot of the churches are steering away from the ‘traditional path’, but more so within protestantism. Getting away from traditional values has also led to conversions to Islam – and from people who want to see something better than the society there is today.

    Blair is the latest in a long line of high profile people to join the Church…….mainly because of what is happening to the church of England. It’s awful what has happened there.

  4. So Blair swaps one version of superstition for a different version of the same superstition. Big deal!

  5. Ulster-Scot

    Is there a religion that thinks it is wrong and everybody else is right? Anglicanism perhaps?

    I could see reasons why Blair would have hesitated. As British PM he has a role in the British state religion and exercising that role as someone who has left that religion may have caused a problem.

    Someone who was already Catholic on becoming PM may have less of a difficulty. Maybe some day we’ll find out.

  6. I don’t see how it is an example of ‘Blair opportunism’. It’s his own business what church he choses to join.

  7. H94

    There have been atheist / agnostic Prime Ministers who have simply stayed out of Church of England affairs. Jim Callaghan was one such and Blair could have followed his example.

    I think David’s right – he ducked this until he was out of Downing Street, even though there is no constitutional difficulty.

  8. just out of interest, Can a Roman Catholic Prime Minister be totally faithful and loyal to his people and country? Isn’t ones loyalty to the Pope, the Vatican and the Priest not suppose to surpass those of a "Temporal" power [a vatican word, not mine]

  9. What does it say about the UK that someone would feel the need to hide Catholisism?

  10. Ulster-Scot

    When Catholics are elected to public office or when Catholics go to the polls to vote, they take their consciences with them. The Church has consistently taught this as, for example, when he said that those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a "grave and clear obligation to oppose" any law that attacks human life. (5) The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has declared that, "in this context, it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals." (6) Anyone who professes the Catholic faith with his lips while at the same time publicly supporting legislation or candidates that defy God’s law makes a mockery of that faith and belies his identity as a Catholic.

    Sadly however, when a politician wrestles with his conscience always bet on the politician to win.

  11. Henry94, I can fully understand what you are saying, in all honesty any christian PM would have that same biblical conscience when in public office, not just a Roman Catholic one.

    I was specifically thinking on the Vaticans additional laws, like the ones below. As you can see they can be used to cover a range of subjects which will effect the running of a country.

    The law of the emperors cannot dissolve the ecclesiastical law.
    Idem, Decreti, pars i. distinct. x. can. i.

    The constitutions of princes are not superior to ecclesiastical constitutions, but subordinate to them.
    Corpus Juris Canonici, Decreti, pars i. distinct. x.

    The Bishop of Rome may excommunicate emperors and princes, depose them from their states, and assoil their subjects from their oath of obedience to them.
    Decreti, pars i, distinct. xcvi. can. x., and Decreti, pars ii. causa xv. quest. vi. can. iii. iv. v.

    The Bishop of Rome has power to absolve from allegiance, obligation, bond of service, promise, and compact, the provinces, cities, and armies of kings that rebel against him, and also to loose their vassals and feudatories.
    Clementin. lib. ii. tit. i. cap. ii.

    It is not lawful for a layman to sit in judgment upon a clergyman. Secular judges who dare, in the exercise of a damnable presumption, to compel priests to pay their debts, are to be restrained by spiritual censures.
    Decret. Gregorii, lib. ii. tit. ii. cap. i. ii. vi, and Sexti Decret. lib. ii. tit. ii. cap. ii.

  12. Ulster Scot, it’s well known that Catholics, like everyone else in the world, tend to commit sins ever now and again; and sinning is just one easy way of circumventing all those laws of the church that seem to bother you so much.

    But I find it quite moving that you, who a lot of people had accused of anti-Catholic bigotry in the past, in fact consider Catholics to have a stronger religious conscience than their Protestant countrymen.

  13. Is there not still remaining anti-Catholic law in the United Kingdom? There certainly is to respects the fact that no Catholic can assume the throne?

    There has never been a Catholic Prime Minister of Great Britain.

    From an article I saw in the Telegraph a couple of years ago" constitutional historians have said that such a development [a Catholic PM] could prove awkward and could affect the relationship between Church and State.

    As Prime Minister, Mr Blair makes recommendations to the Queen on the appointment of Church of England bishops.

    The American Founding Fathers knew what they were doing when they proscribed the establishment of any state religion. I think it’s terrible that the UK still has a state religion. This is what needs to be looked at with a critical eye, not Blair opportunism.

  14. >>The American Founding Fathers knew what they were doing when they proscribed the establishment of any state religion. I think it’s terrible that the UK still has a state religion.<<

    Hold on there. Remember, in over two hundred years of American presidents there has only ever been one who was not a Protestant, and his religion did cause something of a stir at the time.

  15. I have that sinking feeling this going to be an interminable Ulster-Scot night.

    PS. David. I believe it is called a Mass rather than a Service, in the RC Church.

  16. I think you’re correct Noel, although Mahons mentioned recently that he thought some of our Presidents were, at the very least, agnostic. Of course the public didn’t know that at the time. JFK’s Catholicism was a huge deal at the time for the reason Ulster Scot brought up earlier – allegiance to the Pope before the constitution.

    It’s interesting to me that he brought it up.

  17. Daphne, yes, the British monarch is also head of the Anglican church, and this is one reason why the monarch can’t be a Catholic. In fact, a Catholic is also barred from the line of succession, and a good Anglican will even lose his or her place in the line just for marrying a Catholic, as the Queen’s cousin Prince Michael of Kent found out.

  18. –in over two hundred years of American presidents there has only ever been one who was not a Protestant, and his religion did cause something of a stir at the time.–

    True, but at least the informal ban if thats what it was , was not codified in any law.

    And there were any of a number of Catholics who might have been elected since 1960, its just that things did not work out for them.

    No worries. This time, we may get a Catholic President ( in name only, maybe ) in Rudy Giuliani.

  19. Ulster Scot

    The Catholic Church has one code of governance and that is the Code of Cannon Law. The most recent revision of that code was in 1983.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

    The faithful have the Catechism to guide us

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

    For an injunction or decree to have any standing or validity in relation to the relationship between the Catholic and the state it would have to appear in one or the other.

    Feel free to take issue with any of it but don’t claim a fake validity or currency for any other document or snippet. It is misleading to the point of mendacity.

    There is no such thing as "The Vaticans additional laws"

  20. Phantom, all agreed. I just found it interesting that something we hashed out over 40 years ago is an issue now in the UK.

    I should probably ammend that statement a bit, we seem to be at the same crossroads with Mormonism this time.

  21. –I should probably ammend that statement a bit, we seem to be at the same crossroads with Mormonism this time.–

    Yep. Romney is taking some heat that is unfair.

  22. "The American Founding Fathers knew what they were doing when they proscribed the establishment of any state religion"

    Actually they only prescribed the federal government from establishing a religion. Quite a few of the individual states of the US had their own established churches for over half a century after independence.

  23. >>what does it matter if the PM is Catholic or any other religion?<<

    Daphne, one issue is apparently that the Queen appoints the bishops of the Church of England and the Prime Minister advises her in this.

    Maybe they think that, if a Catholic, he would try to sneak in a few Catholic bishops on the sly!

  24. Daphne
    Yes, I support Rudy

    Ross
    Correct

    Peter
    When that bigoted law was passed, there essentially were no Muslims or Buddhists in England, and for a royal to marry a Jew would have been beyond unthinkable. But there were Catholics who could be legislated against!

  25. Perhaps Blair wanted to keep his personal religious conversion out of the extra limelight that would have attended a conversion while in office. A perfectly reasonable choice for such a personal decision. Good for him, I wish him well.

  26. Rome is not a reigion it is a religio/politcal power. Its head is none other than the Antichrist. "God shall send them strong delusion"

    Letter from The Former Late President of the United States Mr. Harry
    Truman to Pope Pius XII.
    Washington D.C.

    Dear Mr. Pacelli:

    As a member of the Baptist Church and Executive Chief of this Great
    Nation and the most powerful nation in the whole world, everyone calls me
    Mr. Truman. I can not call you, "Holiness" as this title belongs only to the
    Creator of the Universe. We also in the United States consider all men
    are equal in the eyes of the Creator and we call them by their own names.
    For the same reason I must address you as Mr. Pacelli.

    The people that elected me as their Executive Chief are a peace loving
    people and a democratic nation. For this reason my duty is to find
    collaboration from those that are in reality looking for peace and are
    working to obtain peace and not from those pushing for war. I believe
    that yourself and neither your church are included with those that are
    truly working for peace. First, the founding Fathers of this great nation
    knew that throughout history, the nature of your church is love for
    politics and war.

    They consented as a principle of our government, not to allowed your church to be involved in our internal affairs. They learned this too well from the History in Europe. We are convinced that our democracy will not last if we get in the mixture of all of your doctrines and intrigue, as the governments of Europe did. We know that you yourself and the Kaiser were part of the intrigue created against the Allies during the First War World.

    You also spent 12 years in Germany during the ascension on Hitler to
    power. You also negotiated with the execrable Fritz Von Papen a double
    Pope to help Hitler to power, as you signature is found Eugenio Cardinal
    Pacelli along with Hitler signature in the concordant between the Vatican
    and the Third Reich in 1933.

    Nobody is going to believe that you were ignorant of the plot Hitler and
    his Nazis got under way against us. The number one catholic biographer
    said referring about yourself "The more well informed man in the Reich".
    After that Von Papen and yourself signed the concordant which blessed
    Hitler with ‘holy-water’ and gave him the needed push to power. Your
    colleague Von Papen after he escape from the gallows by an inch, boasted
    as follow:

    "The Third Reich is the first power that you not only recognized, but put
    into practice the high principles of the papacy".

    Your cardinals and bishops in Rome blessed the weapons used against the
    defenseless Ethiopians. Cardinal Schuter of Milan proclaimed the
    annexation of Ethiopia as a holy-crusade to bring to Ethiopia in triumph
    the cross of Christ. And after all of these, Can you still call your
    church the church of God? Also, Do you pretend that I still see you as
    superior to me and superior to the people of the United States?, You are
    using sweet words to talk about justice and at the same time playing the
    drums of war calling for another war more terrible and destructive that
    the two past wars against Russia, which helped us to defeat Hitler and
    Mussolini.

    You are inciting the United States to rush into building diabolic and
    detestable regimes, You want us to waste our money, and to send our young
    people to a horrible death over the remains of Hitler and Mussolini to
    finish the work they started with your help after we defeated them. Yes,
    the United States longs for peace. From all the nations we still have
    some prosperity, and decency, as we are the bastion for democratic
    freedom.

    If we, as protestant England get weak and loose our substance, your
    "catholic culture" will have another opportunity to govern the world
    again. You can easily after get an alliance with Russia against us, if we
    were to loose, or fall weak after a war of that nature.

    Your predecessor pope Pius XI declared publicly, ‘For the interest of the
    church, I will go as far as getting a concordant with the devil’ For
    these reason Mr. Pacelli is my duty as the head of this protestant
    nation, to reject this adventure disguised as a peace treaty. "Those
    eating in the same dish as the Devil, must use a very long spoon".

    I will continue working for peace as a member of the Baptist Faith,
    holding and working with honorable protestant principles, as they have
    made our nation so great.

    Yours Sincerely
    Harry Truman.

  27. >>Peter, that’s strange. Are you serious?<<

    Daphne, after William of Orange (King Billy of Northern Ireland fame) kicked the Catholic King James II off the English throne (1689) and secured his position, a series of Penal Laws were introduced directed specifically as keeping Catholics out of positions of power. Most were reformed by 1829 (Catholic Emancipation), but this one is something of a hangover.

    Interesting, Ross. I didn’t know that.

  28. You’re so nice Mahons. That’s why you’re the Beer Czar. 🙂

    Phnatom, if you don’t mind, why exactly do you support Rudy? I haven’t made up my mind yet, so I’m curious about others’ choices.

  29. Question: Isn’t the Monarch the head of the church?

    Daphne

    but does the said church impose laws which annul those of "Temporal" powers?

  30. I doubt that there would have been much reaction if Blair had converted whilst still PM. From 2001 to 2003 the leader of the opposition was Iain Duncan Smith who is a catholics and no one particularly cared then.

  31. >>does the said church impose laws which annul those of "Temporal" powers?<<

    Ulster-Scot, no Catholic church law "annuls" any state law. State laws are still binding on all citizens.
    Even a cursory glance as history shows that whenever a catholic leader defied church law they got away with it.

    Recently the President of Ireland partook of the Eucharist in a Protestant church in Dublin. This is a very serious offence in the eyes of the Vatican; in fact, you can officially be excommunicated for it, I believe. But of course, after a few media reports and letters to the papers, it was forgotten, as everybody knew it would be, and not long afterwards the President was in the Vatican chatting with the Pope as if nothing had happened.

    The Irish PM also attends mass regularly. Probably even with one of his mistresses at times.

  32. Sam Flanagan

    That letter appears false. Can you name a source for it…a credible one…a quick web search shows only a link to some religious crackpot site.

    Daphne

    A long story, but…it boils down to extremely strong executive competence.

    A record of performance in NYC, the greatest of which was reducing crime across the board the way he said that he would do before elected.

    And in rejeuvenating vast neighborhoods in NYC by means of crime reduction. removing the porn shops from Time Square, selling city-owned houses to private owners who actually took care of them.

    An uncompromising position on terrorism

    A strong performance in rallying the city and the country after 9/11

    After two terms of a President who can’t put a four word sentence together to save his life, I want a President who is seriously intelligent, and who can communicate. Who has led a large organization, and led it well.

  33. Ulster Scot

    The Catholic Church has one code of governance and that is the Code of Cannon Law. The most recent revision of that code was in 1983.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

    The faithful have the Catechism to guide us

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

    For an injunction or decree to have any standing or validity in relation to the relationship between the Catholic and the state it would have to appear in one or the other.

    Feel free to take issue with any of it but don’t claim a fake validity or currency for any other document or snippet. It is misleading to the point of mendacity.

    There is no such thing as "The Vaticans additional laws"

    Friday, November 9, 2007 at 11:11PM | Henry94

    Hello henry94, here’s some more of them Catholic Church’s codes of governance and Canon Laws:

    do you understand the motivations behind Canon 752 which says that “the Christian faithful” are required to submit their minds and wills to all doctrines declared by the Pope, or the college of bishops, and to be careful to avoid anything that disagrees with those doctrines.

    Who are the Christian faithfull ?

    Do you understand the motivations behind Canon 1311 which says that the Catholic Church has the right to coerce the “Christian faithful” if they fail to comply with Canon Law ?

    What does coerce mean, can it mean force ?

    Do you understand the motivations behind Canon 1371 which says that “a person” who “obstinately rejects” any Catholic doctrine is to be punished.

    Who comes under the label of person, why doesn’t it say a Catholic person?

    Do you understand the motivations behind Canon 1366 when it says that “parents” are to be punished if they allow their children to be educated or baptized in “a non-Catholic religion.”?

    What parents? why doesn’t it say Catholic Parents?

    Do you understand the motivations behind Canon 754 when it says that the bishops are to direct “Catholics” to participate in ecumenism?

    Isn’t this proof that when Canon Law wants to specifically refer to Catholics, it does so clearly and directly?…..and when it doesn’t specifically refer to Catholics, it includes other faiths?

    If a time ever comes when the Catholic Church interprets and applies these laws as not being limited to Catholics, then the Catholic Church would consider it to be a crime (an act contrary to law) for Protestants or Orthodox Christians to preach or teach or write anything that is contrary to Catholicism. That includes teaching their own children. These laws say that offenders are to be punished with a “just penalty.” The term is so broad that it can be interpreted to mean almost anything.

  34. Well, spotted, Phantom and Mahons. I admit I was a bit taken in by it. I mean, why would then pick on Truman?

    Back to the subject. Perry Como actually proved that a Catholic can in fact become Queen.

  35. Daphne – i recommend you go see Elizabeth the film if you havent already. Its very cool. When she was busy fighting out the whole catholic thing (as it was a political force at the time – and is still to a small degree – i still find it odd it has its own place on the UN for example via the Vatican) she believed in religious tolerance, and that Catholics and Protestants were both part of the same faith. "There is only one Christ, Jesus, one faith" she exclaimed later in her reign, "all else is a dispute over trifles." She also declared that she had "no desire to make windows into men’s souls".

    COOL

    We wouldnt bow to a Roman theocracy. Catholics mucked about too much politically and tried to blow up Parliament for example (Nov 5) so have a history. The church i go to here in London has catholic martyrs all along the walls. Its the oldest catholic church in England and dates back many hundreds of years (16c). Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon had their wedding feast in its crypt 🙂

  36. Phantom and Daphne

    I read an interesting article on Rudi today. He may be a social liberal but on foreign policy he is more neo-con than Dubya, and he has several neo-cons in his team. He will bomb Iran as soon as he gets in, unless Dubya has already done it.

    One of the evangelical preachers (Robertson?) has endorsed him because of this, but I can’t see any of those guys endorsing Romney anyway, and it seems from the polls that it’s between Rudi and Romney. It also seems that Rudi and Hillary are neck and neck (so to speak) which confirms my view that Hillary is probably unelectable in 2008.

  37. Cunningham: LOL! Poor Perry will never forgive you.

    Ulster Scot – this site accepts comments by Catholics. Aren’t you afraid we might corrupt you?

  38. VERY COOL Alison. I’m in agreement with that statement. I get extremely bored with doctrinal issues in Christianity.

    "There is only one Christ, Jesus, one faith" she exclaimed later in her reign, "all else is a dispute over trifles." She also declared that she had "no desire to make windows into men’s souls".

    I’m a complete sucker for "Historical Movies", so that one will be on my weekend list.

  39. >>(Elizabeth I) believed in religious tolerance, and that Catholics and Protestants were both part of the same faith<<

    Alison, you can’t be serious!

    A devout middle-aged women is sentenced to be stripped naked and crushed by heavy stones until dead for the crime of harbouring a priest in her house.

    Religious tolerance a la Elizebeth Regina.

    How many people were executed simply for practising the Catholic religion during her reign, do you know?

  40. No Mahons, i’m not afraid you’ll outbreed me as Daphne states, but i’d be more than happy if you attempt to corrupt me with your Roman cathoilc teachings….I never boast, I like truth

  41. >>I’m a complete sucker for "Historical Movies", so that one will be on my weekend list.<<

    Daphne, I should say you’d have to be a sucker for "UnHistorical Movies" for that one. Best get your history from good old-fashioned books.

  42. Daphne, Ulser Scot was planted by Chris Gaskin to show the world that the Northern Ireland problem was never primarily one of terrorism.

  43. Noel

    Compared to her half-sister Mary, Elizabeth was very restrained when it came to religious persecution. This was despite the fact that the Pope had pronounced what was in effect a fatwa when he absolved English Catholics from their allegiance to her.

    Mary burned hundreds of Protestants at the stake for heresy. Elizabeth prosecuted a small number of Catholics for treason, because the Pope had in effect made allegiance to him equivalent to treason. It was his call.

  44. Ah poor Lizzie the first was a sweet and gentle lady who wouldn’t have hurt a hair on a Catholics head.

    Leave her alone Noel

    As for Blair, if he feels that he belongs in the one true church then I say fair play.

  45. "a fellow papist is in the house"

    Daphne

    Can I ask you if many Texas Catholics refer to themselves using anti-Catholic terms?

    I’m not being nasty here, I’m just curious because Charles has referred to himself as a "Roman Catholic" before.

    In Ireland I have never heard a Catholic refer to themselves as either a Papist or RC.

  46. Ulster-Scot

    I have posted a link to the The Code of Cannon law. Why the need to paraphrase and distort and quote out of context. Everything you post about the Church is a distortion of the truth.

    Even what you pass off as your own is simply copied and pasted from sectarian hate-site. If you are not even willing to engage with your own brain then you can’t honestly expect me to bother.

  47. Hey Chris, We don’t consider those terms derogatory. We are outside the Bapstist loop here, and take most Catholic labels as our own. In other words, we own them and take pride in Catholicism regardless of how others label it. Screw them and their insinuations, our faith is mighty fine. We are secure in our Church, all else followed.

    I get a lot of idol worshipper insults from other faiths. I just feel sorry for them that they don’t have Mary or the saints in addition to The Holy Trinity. We are abundant!

  48. Good Evening Alan. How are you tonight? I apologize for leaving your fine rebuttal hanging on the other earlier thread today, my life was away from the computer. Hope you are well.

  49. Alan. I was speaking to your last comment to me on another thread that you went to those lefty sites and found no malfesance. I like that about you, you look. I’m glad you have no snow, my kid’s would love piles of the stuff to drop here tomorrow.

  50. Daphne,

    My wife would love to have snow also, and one of my sons is a ski instructor. Me, I can take it or leave it.

    I did enjoy your contribution on that thread, and it prompted my dialog with Patty. If you followed that, I really do like a good discussion of issues rather than the mud slinging our political operatives are so fond of. We here at ATW should hold ourselves to a higher standard, don’t you think?

  51. I agree Alan, it’s really great here on ATW when we converse and exchange rather than pick corners and fight from hard ideological corners. I have learned so much from the people in this forum, the intellegence and knowledge on ATW is incredible.

    I know that I come from the right politically, but I’ve been trying to come from that angle is less antagonistic lately. I’m tired of fighting with people I really like over mundane crap. I think I can persuade with you with rational argument and friendship versus hateful, ugly bile.

    Alan, the best snow, a one in a million snow, I ever expeienced was in Champaign Illinois, It was a wonderland of of thick flakes that flew for days – drop dead gorgeous snow. Six foot tall drifts, it was gorgeous. That was the day Diana died.

  52. UlsterScot – I am sorry to see you conceed the breeder’s cup so quickly. Going through life dumb AND without sex must be awful. Slainte.

    Anyway, got to go. Goodnight.

  53. Roman Catholic Church of Brookyn website

    I don’t know if some usage of the term Roman Catholic is meant to imply its a foreign Rome-an thing –what other type of Catholic is meant to be differentiated from here?…but yes, the term Roman Catholic is yes common here.

    But in America you also have Eastern Catholic Churches ( Assyrian, Eastern Orthodox ) that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome but which are not Roman Catholic. And the Greek Orthodox, which are very similar to these.

    In a place like Ireland where there are presumably not the Eastern sects, it may be simpler to just use the term "Catholic", ie use the same term that the people referred to use themselves.

  54. Roman Catholic Church of Brookyn website

    I don’t know if some usage of the term Roman Catholic is meant to imply its a foreign Rome-an thing –what other type of Catholic is meant to be differentiated from here?…but yes, the term Roman Catholic is yes common here.

    But in America you also have Eastern Catholic Churches ( Assyrian, Eastern Orthodox ) that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome but which are not Roman Catholic. And the Greek Orthodox, which are very similar to these.

    In a place like Ireland where there are presumably not the Eastern sects, it may be simpler to just use the term "Catholic", ie use the same term that the people referred to use themselves.

  55. Mahon’s Babbies – I expect a massive announcement.

    Phantom, good point on the Orthodoxy. My first husband was Greek and you could spin a butterfly’s wing on the difference.

  56. Phantom

    I use ther term Roman Catholic to distinguish them from other Catholics, including myself who are Anglican.

    When we pray for "The Holy Catholic Church" routinely in our services we mean Anglicanism/Episcopalian.

    If anyone asks me if I am a Catholic or Protestant, I reply "both!" ;o)

    (with a name like Aileen, they tend to make the wrong assumptions anyway and if I’m feeling prticularly mishevious, I will mention relations called "Patrick", "Deirdre" and the fact that my grandmother gave birth 13 times and my mother met the Pope just to send them further down the blind alley!)

  57. as to Blair, I won’t mourne his passing from Anglicanism. I did think it was a shame when the Duchess of Kent left us, just in the sence of she is such a nice person, I kinda wanted her in our team. I don’t think any the less of her and hope she is happy with her decision, as she appears to be.

    When a load left to join the RC church over ordination of women an RC friend of mine was less than enthusistic about it. "as if we don’t have enough mysogonistic old reactionaries of our own, without getting all yours".

    The strange anomaly about the law is that you can’t marry an RC and hold your place in line to the throne, but you can be married to one. The Duke of Kent is still in line to the throne.

    Interesting peice of trivia (at least I find it interesting) the Duchess of Kent is a direct decendant of Cromwell. I wonder what he would have made of it.

  58. Aileen,

    >>I will mention relations called "Patrick", "Deirdre" and the fact that my grandmother gave birth 13 times and my mother met the Pope<<

    Interesting. How many of these stories are true?

    >>you can’t marry an RC and hold your place in line to the throne, but you can be married to one. <<

    This list shows the line of succession and the victims of the Catholic-ban. It’s also interesting that certain "Princes of Prussia" are also in line, even though Prussia does not exist.

    http://www.etoile.co.uk/Rsucc.html

  59. Screw them and their insinuations, our faith is mighty fine. We are secure in our Church, all else followed.

    I get a lot of idol worshipper insults from other faiths. I just feel sorry for them that they don’t have Mary or the saints in addition to The Holy Trinity. We are abundant!

    Daphne, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

  60. Noel

    I was too tired to come back to you last night. You missed the part in my comment when i acknowledged the martyrs in my catholic church. I wasnt being flippant about the general issues and that she did not execute catholics. Nevertheless it was the Pope and the Spanish who caused the political issues in respect of their constant challenge to her throne – hence treason. Peters comment is correct.

    Daphne – the first film Elizabeth is better than the sequel (current film out) imho. Hope you enjoy.

  61. I think this has already been touched on, it would be legally questionable for the Prime minister to be catholic since he could be considered as an advisor to the monarch, of whom cannot be catholic, under the Catholic Emancipation laws

  62. JONZ

    It’s quite ironic that a law that prevents a Catholic from being head of state is called a Catholic emancipation law.

  63. And as Catholics cannot ascend to the throne, does this mean that British Catholics exist under a kind of dhimmitude, even in the UK, even today? I thought dhimmitude was supposed to be a bad thing!

    I propose to solve the problem. I’m flying to England again tonight, and I propose that Queen Elizabeth be deposed and that I be proclaimed King Phantom I. I’ll straighten things out over there. Followers, please prepare the ground.

  64. Phantom

    If you take the Queen’s place it means you’ll have to share a bed with Prince Philip. He may be old but I guess he still has his needs 🙂

  65. Now you see why we have these laws. A soon as a Catholic takes the throne he wants to chop peoples heads off. It’s Bloody Mary all over again !

  66. All the comments on this thread and in any other are true. I never developed a flair for lying and I always looked guilty even when telling the truth in anticipation of not being believed. Much more fun to disorientate with the truth anyway!

  67. Like a good many Americans, I don’t want Hillary Clinton back in the White House. What is past is prologue. But when I undertook to untangle Hillary, I got more than I bargained for. Perhaps Mr. Blair knows of Mrs. Clinton’s tangled web, and merely wishes to atone. Whatever the case, this may put a few facts to rest: http://theseedsof9-11.com

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