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THE EARLY YEARS….

By ATWadmin On February 10th, 2009

Do YOU think that young children looked after by grandparents are more likely to be badly behaved than those sent to nursery? I profoundly disagree with this. 

“This is what a new study claims today. It suggest the children tended to have wider vocabularies, but were also more likely to show ‘problem behaviour’ and find it harder to get on with other children, said researchers. They were also less likely to be ready for school, according to the study by the Institute of Education, a University of London research body widely viewed as left-wing. The Institute tracked 4,800 children of working mothers and found those sent to nurseries and playgroups had a better understanding of colours, letters, numbers, sizes, comparisons and shapes.”

I was looked after by my grandmother when I was young and  owe much of whatever virtue I possess to her. She enriched me beyond words, wise, kind, loving, sensible. No  nursery would EVER provide such benefits and so I dismiss this study as just more pathetic social engineering hypothesing by leftards.

70 Responses to “THE EARLY YEARS….”

  1. … according to the study by the Institute of Education, a University of London research body widely viewed as left-wing.

    Who’d have thought it? Well, anyone with half a brain hearing the BBC promote this obvious nonsense this morning.

    They were also less likely to be ready for school, according to the study …

    Aye, likely that they’re polite, have manners, speak English and can use a knife and fork. Dreadful petty bourgeoisie habits.

  2. Sorry David but your experience is not vslid grounds for dismissing this research – one swallow and all that.

    The srguement that it appears to contradict other reseasrch is more to the point. This leaves us with the question as to whether this study was flawed, a statistical blip or whether the contradictory resreach findings were flawed or whether there is some other unrelated factor affecting the results that has not been specified.

    I personnally think that kids that get a mix of grandparents and nursery get the best deal. That of course depends on the nursery. the grandparents and the special needs of the kids.

  3. David:

    "I dismiss this study as just more pathetic social engineering hypothesing by leftards."

    You’re a study of one compared to a study of 4,800 so I guess you’re the exception that proves the rule. Fair play to your gran though.

  4. a University of London research body widely viewed as left-wing

    "widely viewed" = "viewed by The Daily Mail".

    As for David’s comments – don’t give me facts, give me anecdata and wild speculation.

  5. The Institute of Education is one of the great Left Wing bastions and long time home to virulent commies and other trash. I sincerely its officers and work are closely monitored by the security services.

    These are genuinely sick minds at work here. It’s a place where the perverted and degraded is raised high. Just one year ago:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article3285615.ece
    Patriotism should be avoided in school lessons because British history is “morally ambiguous”, a leading educational body recommends.

    Yes, the IoE. It’s always the IoE.

    There should be special camps for such vermin.

  6. "The results show that the IOE has more than twice as many world-leading (4*) scholars in education as any other UK university and over one-third of its 200+ researchers are at the global cutting edge. More IOE research staff submitted their work to the RAE than researchers in any other university department in the field (218 full-time equivalent staff)."

    But hey, I prefer to take Pete’s word that they’re all "vermin".

  7. I suspect there are many factors at play in child development and the nursery v, Granny debate can’t be looked at merely as an either/or situation.

    I would note that the image of Granny Vance teaching Wee David about the Big Bad Liberal Wolf, How Little "Red" Riding Hood was a communist, and Curious George should have been deported back to Africa does give me pause.

  8. Never mind guys, just keep drinking the Kool Aid and keep believing the propaganda, for that is all it is, such an institution can hardly be called independent, given the sole surce of funding.

    Just what is it about ‘socialism is anti-family’,that you don’t understand?

  9. Ernest:

    "Just what is it about ‘socialism is anti-family’,that you don’t understand?"

    Have you had a look at Sweden lately?

  10. Mahons,

    My late Grandmother was the person who I most admired in this world. She had no time for politics, she got on with her neighbours regardless of religion, she despised bigots, she taught me all those things! Now, being a bad learner, I do not have all her virtues (!!) but I try. And fail.

    I am entirely prejudiced in this discussion but as I say, and I leave myself open to all my critics in doing so, I put down all of my better qualities to my grandmother’s teachings. The day she died was the worst day in my life and after 12 years it still upsets me profoundly.

    On the more general topic, I favour family over state institution – Nurseries are potential laboratories for advancing Statism, the family is the bulwark against this.

  11. What I love about all of this is that the IoE is a hot bed of dangerous lefties who should be spied on night-and-day by MI5 when they say something with which the loathsome Daily Mail disagrees, but when the same paper agrees with their findings they are no longer a bunch of lefties, and their research suddenly becomes "pioneering".

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1078311/Children-unmarried-couples-TWICE-likely-suffer-family-split.html

  12. IB,

    Perhaps I should have written; ‘socialism, as practised in the UK’.

    Although I am sure that even those wonderful examples of the socialist scam that govern Sweden are not above saying one thing and doing another…

  13. Ernest:

    I made that remark because I’m a little tired of people ignoring the Scandinavian model when criticising socialism. It’s highly successful and I’m very fond of that part of the world and its peoples.

  14. It makes sense. Humans are social animals; children benefit from interaction with various individuals in a supervised environment. It’s just commonsense.

    I’m sure being raised by Grandparents is also fine, though may not be quite as beneficial as Grandparents may not be able to control Children as effectively.

  15. Guba,

    I am sure it may depend on the Grandparent, I was very very lucky.

  16. David – no doubt she was a great influence and a great lady. You were lucky.

  17. When children spend most of their formative time in a controlled environment, such as that suggested in the report, they are more likely to share similar attitudes and opinions as the group and their teachers.

    This must surely make them more compliant and open to future suggestion from their peers later in life.

    Spending more of their formative years in the family group,they will, more than likely adopt similar points of view and attitudes, which may, or may not be in tune with current social thinking.

    Admittedly, two similar scenarios, but the family one is more likely to produce more ’rounded’ and varied people in the long term.

    Thus minimising the family input, ensures a more compliant and receptive adult, and encourages the herd instinct which is so beneficial, and essential to increased future statism… IOW – it makes them easier to brainwash and to manipulate, – they are being ‘groomed’ by the State, and as we are now seeing in the UK, it is very effective in destroying any ‘out-of-favour’ culture preference.

  18. Thus minimising the family input, ensures a more compliant and receptive adult, and encourages the herd instinct which is so beneficial, and essential to increased future statism.

    That does not make any sense. What ‘herd instinct’ are you talking about?

    Are you saying that a child raised by two parents (exposed to one set of beliefs in their formative years) is going to be more analytic than a child raised in a more numerous social group with varied conflicting influences? It seems illogical.

  19. Guba:

    If it seems illogical that’s because it is.

  20. All things being equal, a child raised in a more individual environment, such as the family, is bound to benefit more than one raised in a more institutional one such as a state controlled group.

    Yes the former may well adopt the family mores, and yes, they will likely be different to their neighbours, but this will ,at least, give them some perspective for the future when they will be able to excercise personal discretion and values to varying situations.

    The latter state group may well be varied at the start but will soon be ‘harmonised’ into a more ‘group’ type of personality rather than being more individually orientated.

    Of course, which type is considered better than the other will depend on how one views the role of the state and its role in governance of the population.

  21. IB,

    It depends on your pov. Is peer pressure always correct?

    Do you want a ‘follow the crowd’ type, or a more individual – and usually more interesting type.

  22. Ernest:

    I believe Guba’s point (and I agree) is that exposure to multiple and varied stimuli will make of a child a better analyst. By this logic the child of say, Amish parents, would be less likely to have a well-rounded Weltanschaaung than a child who’s attended public school and has mixed with a broad range of children.

  23. How is a family a more individual environment than a social group? For example, a strict religious family would be very antagonistic to an individualistic environment, while a school may be more open to individuality. Kids would be allowed to explore and interact more extensively.

    How is a kindergarten institutional and a family not? What do you mean by the term?

    when they will be able to excercise personal discretion and values to varying situations.’

    If they have been limited in there social interactions and access to varied points of view in their formative years (ie. through homeschooling), then, obviously, there ability to excercise discretion in later years will be lessened.

    Young earth creationists only exist, because they have been raised with particular ‘values’ and have been sheltered from others.

    You can only truly be rational and learn how to discern the truth by having access to a multitude of different opinions and values. That is the point made by Locke, Milton and liberal protestant groups following the reformation. Someone with greater access to varying ‘truths’ will be better prepared to come to real truth.

  24. Ernest:

    You speak of ‘peer pressure’, but what about family pressure?

    Lets say you were a member of a cult and taught only one truth. You were not exposed to any other viewpoints. Even if this truth was to live a good and honorable life, would this person be as well rounded or as moral as someone who has come to regard these truths as self-evident through rational analysis?

    I would say no, and this was exactly the point made by John Lock and Erasmus. He felt that the only way you could arrive at the truth of Christianity was by examining all viewpoints and using your rationality to arrive at the truth. If you just accept something as the truth without questioning it, then you cannot really be a moral person, as you do not really understand the quality of this truth.

  25. How is a kindergarten institutional and a family not?

    Good grief, how could anyone regard collectivism as a danger to the family.

  26. A child can be ‘institutionalized’ by a family much more effectively then by a school. That is pretty obvious.

  27. Guba:

    "If you just accept something as the truth without questioning it, then you cannot really be a moral person, as you do not really understand the quality of this truth."

    Hard to argue with that. But no doubt the collectivists on this thread will try.

  28. Barry:

    Yes, such ideas are the basis of liberalism and freedom of speech. It is no surprise that there are those today who oppose it.

    Pete and those of similar minds would have been avid Papists back in the day!

  29. Mahons,

    She was. I was so lucky and I am eternally grateful.

  30. Guba:

    "Pete and those of similar minds would have been avid Papists back in the day!"

    LOL. What I love about Pete are his constant attacks on collectivism and the herd mentality while not realising he’s part of a herd himself. Such is the group-think of bloggers here that I have to look at the byline to see who’s blogging. The exception of course is Mahons.

  31. David,

    Very touching tribute to your beloved Granny. May she rest in peace.

    Hi Ernest, how are you pal?

    " it makes them easier to brainwash and to manipulate, – they are being ‘groomed’ by the State, and as we are now seeing in the UK, it is very effective in destroying any ‘out-of-favour’ culture preference."

    That’s a bit OTT Ernest,

  32. I observed several kids brought up by grandparents when I was at school. They were more mature than others, with a greater sense of right and wrong. Of course they got into trouble, because they wouldn’t play the immature games of other kids.

  33. Pinky,

    Thanks. Much of the good in me comes from her. The rest, as they say, is nature!!!!

  34. So nature was good to you as well??

  35. Now THAT is for others to judge!!!! My arrogance only extends to the virtues my grandmother taught me, my vices are self-generated!

    You know she lives to 90 years and just quietly died, no real illness. I remember getting the phone call at 6.30 am – my father to break the news. The next few days were just awful, the worst. It shows how selfish we can be – she was ready to go but I was not ready for her to go. Still, after some years I got a sense of contentment.

    I have other thoughts on that but too private for a public blog. Maybe some day I will write it all out.

  36. Pinky,

    Yes I do think it very OTT that the state thinks it knows best what is best for my offspring! and persists in interferring ‘above and beyond’ their remit…

    Guba, IB,

    Apologies for not continuing our earlier discussion. my day suddenly got very busy, leaving little time for blogging.

    The fact that I am using one of these Asus notebook computers doesn’t help either, – the keyboard is really too small for big fingers or speedy typing. However, I am sure we will cross swords again another time… Don’t forget – "Family is Best!"…:-)

  37. Pinky,

    Thanks for the enquiry, better now the medication is over and done with. I trust it is the same for you…

    Moving to warmer climes has also helped, and my timing couldn’t have been better it seems.

    Meanwhile, keep happy and keep healthy…

  38. Jaz,

    "What I love about all of this is that the IoE is a hot bed of dangerous lefties who should be spied on night-and-day by MI5 when they say something with which the loathsome Daily Mail disagrees, but when the same paper agrees with their findings they are no longer a bunch of lefties, and their research suddenly becomes "pioneering"."

    Right. This is the flip side of the phenomenon whereby conservatives resist factual information that threatens their values. They also embrace facts that support them.

    This was nicely demonstrated in a recent study which presented the facts of global warming together with a supporting newspaper story. One group received a story saying that scientists said that nuclear power was the solution, and another group received a story saying that scientists said that anti-pollution regulations were the solution. The ones who got the ‘anti-pollution’ version were more inclined to play down the threat and dismiss the facts than the ones who got the ‘nuclear’ version or no newspaper story at all.

  39. IB

    Conservatism, in its broadest terms, is driven by fear; fear is propagated by religion. Christianity (and others) breed fear, they introduce fear into our lives where none is needed.

    It makes us fear the most elemental events of life, our birth and death. Religion makes us fear sex and sexuality. For a normal person, this anti-gay marraige sentiment is almost impossible to understand, but for most people on this planet, sex – the most mundane and universal of things- is petrifying.

    Life is also, of course, petrifying, the fear of death and eternal punishment is always there. Life is one long tight-rope. You cannot stop, look around and god forbid really enjoy it, lest you fall. You can never really be free.

    Death, the most mundane thing of all, is transformed into the most heinous thing imaginable. What will happen? Will i receive eternal bliss? Will i suffer eternal torment always regretting? The fear of death is something relatively recent in human culture. The idea of ‘Hell’ is even newer.

    The political institutions of 3000 years ago were based on the power of fear. The plebs lived in fear of punishment. The law of eternal and could not be broken. Different opinions were heretical and not tolerated. Every facet of life was controlled and created by the princes to help propagate this fear, as was religion.

    We all revere those who died to help break down the princes’ political system. A reintroduction of such a system would, nowadays, be unthinkable. But, the princes’ religion is, arguably, as strong as ever and its fear still torments us all.

    There are still ‘princes’ – like Bin Laden, James Dobson and Ratz – who use this power of fear over people to their advantage.

    The cause of liberty is only half done. There are those in this world who still wield fear as a weapon and until we are liberated from this fear, we certainly cannot say that we are free. That is why conservatism is today, as it ever was, the enemy.

  40. Guba:

    Nice mini-essay. You’re spot on.

  41. Complete rubbish. You may live in fear but I certainly don’t and most conservatives certainly don’t.

  42. "Conservatism, in its broadest terms, is driven by fear"

    You should tell that to the bloke who keeps going on about how we are on the brink of running out of energy and over population is going to lead to catastrophe, I can’t remember his name, GUNA, TUBA or something.

  43. Mahons:

    What you mean by ‘live in fear’ is not what i mean. Most young Christian men will not fear much, but what when he begins to feel a bit different about other young men, he certainly does. Why is that? Why is he in fear? Why do his parents cry and sent him to a ‘pray your gay away’ camp?

    The plebians were not in constant fear of the Prince, they knew that they would only suffer when they went out of line. Michael Servetus would not have had to live in fear at all, if he did not permit his mind to wander. Galileo did not have to publish his theories, he could have lived an esteemed and happy life if he did not.

    Fear is a means of control, a tool, and it works best if the victim does not ‘live in fear.’ does not realize he is under control.

    If you want to tame a dog, you do not give him a trashing everyday. He will learn to fear you alright, but will also despise you and, sooner or later, give you a painful bite. You beat him when he disobeys you, and treat him (Heaven sounds good, yes?) when he obeys. The dog will not ‘live in fear’, he will learn what is (according to the master) right and what is wrong. he will look up to you as a God and defend you to the death.

    Mahon: If man can do this to a dog, do you not think that he has the gumption to do it to his subjects?

    Ross:

    If someone is going to punch you in the face, i say listen to your fear and duck! There is nothing wrong with irrational fear; seeing a threat, recognizing it and taking aversive action.

  44. Mahons:

    "Complete rubbish."

    Bit harsh? How about: "I don’t think that’s completely true, Guba."

    All animals live in fear. We’re hardwired to do so, for our continued survival. Take a look out of your window. Observe the birds, big and small. Watch a sparrow eating. Can’t be much fun I’ve always thought.

    We’re not much different. The moment you wake up in the morning fear kicks in (I won’t mention the subconscious fears that have driven your dreams). What time is it? Oh fuck, I’m late. What’s for breakfast? Oh no, did I forget to buy eggs? Etc etc.

    Small fears but fears none the less. The greatest fear of course is our fear of death. It drives us to do many foolish, noble, horrible, selfless things. Guba is spot on when he reminds us that most politic institutions are based on fear, which is where tyrannical regimes come into their own.

    I fear I’ve gone on too long with this….

  45. IB

    I am sure that Mahons is regretting his uncouth outburst and is at present, penning a kind, heartfelt apology for his – momentary, i am sure – fluster.

    Forgive my preemption, Mahons, but your apology is accepted 😉

  46. "I was looked after by my grandmother when I was young and owe much of whatever virtue I possess to her"

    I think you should at least allow the woman an opportunity to defend herself.

  47. Guba – I should have said it was incomplete rubbish.

    If you disliked "pray away your gay" camp, you should have considered alternative camping sites.

    Irish Barry – that isn’t fear.

  48. LOL @ Ross

    David

    It’s lovely that you have such special memories of her. I missed out on having grandparents and remain facinated by the relationship.

  49. What the world needs right now is a lot more Grannies!

  50. Mahons:

    I accept your step-down and partial revision!

    Religion, as a social institution, was created by the wealthy and powerful and was used to control the hordes. Religion is based on fear of punishment, again pretty obvious.

    What Barry is describing is commonly regarded as fear, as the word is used today.

  51. GUBA – You may accept it for the further derision intended.

    Your views on religion are what seems to be the product of fear.

  52. Guba has impossibly incomplete views on Christianity or of religion as a whole.

  53. Mahons: You seem rattled. I don’t think that i have been insulting or aggressive in anyway. You Yanks get rattled fair easy! It must be the Budweiser. Its sickening taste has probably caused many wars.

    Guba has impossibly incomplete views on Christianity or of religion as a whole.

    I think that i have a fairly good grasp of religion as a whole. It is usually easier to look at something objectively from the outside then from within.

    My point is that religion controls through fear. As i said, a religious person does not ‘live in fear’ of God, just as a dog does not live in fear of its master.

    It was created, or more correctly shaped, by political dictators (Constantine and so on). We do not retain the political institutions of two millenia ago, yet we do retain its religion.

    Of course, religion has changed and is now more liberal, but the basic tenants are the same. The examples of how Bin Laden and Pat Robertson having used religion’s fear to control, is pretty obvious. We are better shot of it.

  54. Guba – On the contrary, I’ve simply noted your fear of religion. But the Budweiser intake is a good idea and I shall be sure down a few in your honor this evening. I always salute my vanguished foes that way.

  55. ‘I shall be sure down a few in your honor this evening.’

    Two nights in a row? Maybe ok for a college student, but a man of your maturity (and wisdom)?

    ‘I’ve simply noted your fear of religion.’

    Indeed, a rational fear of religion, as opposed to a irrational fear of hell. Religion clearly exists, Hell, alas, does not.

    ‘I always salute my vanguished foes that way.’

    Reminds me of the former President bush on that aircraft carrier. If it is one thing that you yanks need to learn, it is to never claim ‘Mission Accomplished’ too soon!

  56. " Bin Laden and Pat Robertson "

    Oh my.

    Alcohol didn’t hurt Churchill, and I doubt it will hurt mahons too badly.

  57. GUBA – third night in a row actually. If you can’t keep up, stand aside.

    I see nothing rational in your fear.

    As for old Georgie and his silly sign, the lesson is that is what happens to those who don’t drink. It makes you lose focus.

  58. Why does it have to be a case of either/or. It’s not grannies and nothing else, or the promary family unit and nothing else, or just the communal nursery and nothing else.

    The best upbringing for a child is one who is blessed with loving and capable grandparents, parents and siblings, and who can also freely experience the benefits and education of associating with larger groups of nursery and school compatriots.

    All the different living scenarios have positive and different learning experiences for the child to grow with.

  59. ‘" Bin Laden and Pat Robertson "’

    Phantom, i am not comparing them. They are only similar in that they use religious fear to control people and use it for, in my opinion, negative ends.

    ‘ third night in a row actually. If you can’t keep up, stand aside.
    Mahons, this is ragweek (our version of spring break) I am doing a pub-crawl, starting at 9am tomorrow morning and going through 23 pubs. The only reason i am sober tonight is because i am working in an net Cafe (why i’m online so much!).

    ‘I see nothing rational in your fear’

    Do you think it is rational to fear radical Islam and radical Christianity? I just think that it is rational to fear the religions them self.

    Mahons, a grown man, should have a glass of wine, maybe one night a week, he should not get pissed on cans all weekend like an Englishman!

  60. Colm

    that’s sorta what I said – do keep up ;o)

  61. GUBA – a grown woman can have a glass of wine if she chooses, I’ll stick to my beer.

    A Pub Crawl? The horror. The Unspeakable in pursuit of the undrinkable.

  62. Aileen

    I didn’t read any of the comments prior to adding my own, but it is no surprise that our great wise and humane minds thought alike 😉

  63. ‘The Unspeakable in pursuit of the undrinkable.’

    As far as us youngens go, i think i could drink you under the table! You may beat me at drinking Bud-shite, sorry lite. I would rather accept defeat than trample on my dignity.

  64. GUBA -accept defeat, it would seem to be a good preparation for life in your case.

  65. ‘it would seem to be a good preparation for life in your case.’

    When i am a middle aged man, spending most of my day commenting on a message board, then i will accept that my life is a failure!

  66. "Mahons, a grown man, should have a glass of wine, maybe one night a week, he should not get pissed on cans all weekend like an Englishman!"

    He shouldn’t drink from a can at all. Wine, unless are already very inebrieted (a posh way of saying blattered), is for women and old people. Bottles in the house, draft in the pub, is the way Guba.

  67. Guba

    It’s actually worse being a young man spending most of his life commenting on a message board. You should be pounding hot totty not clammy keyboards 🙂

  68. Seamus

    Is blattered a hybrid of Splattered and Bladdered ?

  69. ‘It’s actually worse being a young man spending most of his life commenting on a message board.’

    i have to work in an Internet cafe part-time to get enough money to drink, smoke weed and pound hot-totty (not prostitutes!)!

  70. It probably is Colm. There are so many delightful words for describing really drunk people.