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BRAVO!

By Pete Moore On June 23rd, 2020

Los Angeles County health officials reported 2,571 new cases of COVID-19 on Monday, the third day in the last week that the county has reported more than 2,000 infections […]

It’s “highly likely” that the surge is connected to mass protests that erupted in recent weeks over the death of George Floyd, L.A. County Public Health Director Barbara Ferrer said.

That’s an awful lot of cases for one county even with a big city in it. Imagine burning down the neighbourhood, getting sick, infecting yo mama and burdening the hospitals – and thinking that you’re the good guy.

210 Responses to “BRAVO!”

  1. I notice no comment on the big increases in the ” I don’t wear no mask ” paradises of Texas, Florida, Arizona, North Carolina.

  2. There is certainly a problem with the lack of social distancing measures taken by crowds of protestors, crowds at political rallies and even people jumping into the social scene too soon.

  3. I give the lady about 24 hours before she has to resign.

  4. Phantom – maybe you would like to post about it?

    Take care Charles. I read that cases are rising in Texas. I can’t stand masks as it is. Having to do so in that weather would be torture. Stay inside and have a drink.

  5. Pete

    Maybe.

    I so completely hate masks, but I wear them because I hate the virus more.

    I don’t wear them cycling etc, but always always in a shop.

  6. Thanks Pete, A G&T is just what the doctor ordered!

  7. Thanks Pete, A G&T is just what the doctor ordered!

  8. A nice chilled IPA is not bad either buddy

    Hoppy beers rule

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/10607/122334/

  9. Dr Fauci ? 🙂

  10. Phantom, I’ve never tried an IPA (I’ve never tried a Guinness either, but don’t tell the Irish!)

  11. That beer sounds nice Phantom. My current tipple
    https://rascalsbrewing.com/beers/big-hop-red/

  12. Charles, visit any decent pub in Dublin and treat yourself. Or, wait until you’re in Maddens. The Guinness is amazing 🙂
    And when you’re in Cork, go for Murphy’s 🙂

  13. Petr

    I will look out for it. A decent number of British brews make it over here.

    Charles

    IPAs have become hugely popular in the US and in the UK I think. A bit stronger taste than most US lagers, but not crazily so. They have a sharp taste from the hops ( ” hoppy ” ) that grows on you.

    If you’re going to go to Ireland this year, hopefully, maybe…, you may want to save that first pint of Guinness for a pub in Dublin that serves a lot of it, which is any one of them.

  14. Phantom,

    I’m pretty sure we’re going. It’s called non-refundable business class tickets! I wanted to make sure we could socially distance on the plane, and as you pointed out to me, the new 787/788 has that new, outstanding ventilation system.

    But it’s all up to an Taioseach

  15. Seimi

    I look forward to it! 🙂

  16. Seimi

    I look forward to it! 🙂

  17. Seimi

    I look forward to it! 🙂

  18. IPAs are what people who do not know what they want take forever to order while those of us who know what we want wait for their endless questions to the bartender to end so we can order what we want.

  19. Charles

    Yes we get it, you look forward to it . No need to say it thrice 🙂

  20. These Texans get all excited.

  21. mahons

    That is the usual bogus hogwash

    The real beer snobs don’t like IPAs too much because they’re ” too popular ”

    I am a small c catholic when it comes to the world of beer. Give me IPA, give me wheat, give me farmhouse ale, even give me Budweiser on a hot day. I’ll drink them all, and I make exceptionally quick decisions at a busy bar.

  22. If you order Budweiser in any bar, it’s a very quick and entirely wrong decision!

  23. But you know….if it is a baking hot afternoon at the barbecue or ball game, one of these bad boys is just what the doctor ordered

    https://www.target.com/p/budweiser-beer-24-fl-oz-can/-/A-47136203

  24. Like a bud in the summer it does the job you don’t want more than 2 or three can still function well and get up next day fine

  25. A bottle of Budweiser on a hot day is more refreshing than say a bottle of Pepsi but it certainly wouldn’t be my first beer of choice, (it reminds me of Harp with a shovel full of sugar). If in a bar and Bud is fancied a cold bottle of Czech Budvar is always the best choice.

  26. yeah think me and phantom are referring to outside , not in a bar , where san miguel would be the choice or becks on tap, which does exist , but rare .

    o/t but u might need a beer for this one:

    I see a route for DT win:
    scanarion
    1st July Israel is starting its annexation of 30% of the West Bank , one week today.
    they can do this aggressively or smoothly, either way though is going to inflame the arab world. could be an uprising in palestine, broken peace treaties with Jordan , who knows .. It’ll be the biggest upheaval since 1967 .
    with evangelical crazies surrounding Trump, and both he and Bibi needing voits and support and boosts, its a perfect storm and cocktail for extremists of all hues to get involved.

    For the evangelicals this is a chance to kick-start Armegddon. If there is huge conflict it could go global , with Russia involved .. any the thinking is esp with usa casualties you stick with the war president ..
    So you’ll have most countries denouncing the annexation and USA going solo to support “our friends in Israel ”
    chances of this happening – high !

  27. https://www.timesofisrael.com/

    just look at the headlines and see the storm brewing UN vs USA/Israel
    Just needs someone irresponsible to light the fuse.
    Hmmn? lemme think who do I know who is good at lighting fuses ?
    step forward one donald trump!

  28. Bud would be one of the last beers I would go for in a bar, but at least its not Tennants!

    Kurt

    Despite everything that’s happened, Trump being re-elected is still a huge possibility, in my opinion. He still has massive support, and one poorly attended rally shouldn’t be taken as a sign of a coming defeat.
    Complacency cost H. Clinton votes the last time. Trump is out on the campaign trail at the minute, and nothing should be taken for granted.

  29. Totally agree. Biden may not wish to be as irresponsible as Trump in having large crowd rallies but does need t fight to win and build a momentum. relying on Trump’s crassness (as Hillary did) to secure victory is foolish. Biden will also have to be prepared to distance himself strongly from the more radical offshoots of the George Floyd protests. The Statue toppling mobs,’Defund the Police’ and ‘Cop free zone activists may excite young political activists but they are off putting to a much larger number of ordinary Americans and if Trump can succesfully tie them to an incoming Biden administration that will help his re-lection chances considerably.

  30. Not in a bar , where San Miguel would be the choice or Becks on tap, which does exist , but rare.

    Surely you mean on pump or on draught? AFAIK only Bud, Coors, Miller Lite, etc com ‘on tap’.

    San Miguel is the standardised beer tipple in Spain but Estrella, Ambar, Voll Dan & Keler are all superior although if you really want a great Spanish beer always go for Alhambra Never, ever, ever, under any circumstances go for Cruz Campo.

    Bud would be one of the last beers I would go for in a bar, but at least its not Tennants!

    Absolutely spot on.

    Trump will of course seize the polarisation of annexing the West Bank as an electoral strategy to appeal to both the uber Israeli bloc and those who think that supporting such land grab expansionism is somehow sticking it to the liberals. Trump’s chances of reelection are a very real possibility. He’s not gone yet, not by a longshot.

  31. Los Angeles County health officials reported 2,571 new cases of COVID-19 on Monday….

    And the consequences are…..approximately zero. Those who would be exposed are not susceptible to the cold or flu, whichever the ‘pandemic’ is.

    As for masks, it’s all about social control and, as an exercise, it’s working rather well given that masks for the purpose of preventing transmission of a respiratory virus are ineffective:

    https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy

    Physics and Biology of Viral Respiratory Disease and of Why Masks Do Not Work
    In order to understand why masks cannot possibly work, we must review established knowledge about viral respiratory diseases, the mechanism of seasonal variation of excess deaths from pneumonia and influenza, the aerosol mechanism of infectious disease transmission, the physics and chemistry of aerosols, and the mechanism of the so-called minimum-infective-dose.

  32. As for masks, it’s all about social control

    Which the objective is? What possible social control objective could asking someone to wear a mask to limit the spreading of a virus have?

  33. Paul – it’s about compliance, just in the same manner as ‘taking the knee’. Masks don’t work for the claimed purpose so why are they being imposed? The science clearly shows that they don’t and can’t work so there is another purpose.

  34. Except that many (the majority?) of virologists, physicians and scientists disagree.

    Much like global warming in fact.

    So, because some scientists disagree, (remember those two Bakersfield politicised quacks that you swore by?), about the effectiveness of masks ‘there is another purpose’ but you can’t say what it is?

    Paranoid, conspiracy rubbish.

  35. oh dear allan cries social control aka infowars alex jones;

    its a targeted strategy to stop the spread , esp for those asymptomatic

    Requiring face masks to be worn decreases the growth rate of COVID-19 cases by about 40% in Germany.

    https://voxeu.org/article/unmasked-effect-face-masks-spread-covid-19

  36. Which the objective is? What possible social control objective could asking someone to wear a mask to limit the spreading of a virus have?

    Obviously the same sort of evil social control as requiring people to wear seatbelts, and crash helmets and making workplaces non-smoking. You know the dastardly govt plot to minimise, deaths, serious injury and ill health !

  37. Allan

    You don’t even need the details of scientific analysis to know the logic of how masks clearly have at least some effect on containing the spread of bodily emitted aerosols. Go and stand right in front on someone with a mask on and someone without. Ask them both to sneeze and you will feel the difference.

  38. Yes, and in the US, the mandatory seatbelts rules , were unbelievably, opposed at the time by the same type of
    Know nothings who oppose masks now

    There still are some anti seatbelt people, who claim that mandatory Wearing of them is against the constitution or some other such nonsense. Allan, speak up on this.

    https://fee.org/articles/the-fraud-of-seat-belt-laws/

  39. Mike Pence said 20 years ago that smoking doesn’t kill you
    not the sorta guy you want as a doctor is it ?

    Allan have you got studies to show smoking is fine and lung cancer is just a made-up thing-ama- jig . Recent stats say > 10mill die a year!
    But they could all be state actors .. you just can never tell eh ( wink wink )

    p.s are there any employment sites you know of where I could become a state actor ?
    do they pay well ?

  40. Huge anti science and anti knowledge element in Trump circles, well represented here

  41. https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2020/02/27/pence-smoking-cancer-donald-trump-coronavirus-response/4890066002/

  42. BTW, Phantom, you recently posted a short video about facemasks, (from Japan I think?). I’ve been looking for the video as I’d like to use it in a presentation but can’t find it. Could you please post the source again?

  43. This is not the identical video but it contains The same images within it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASi5OUv9Pg

  44. Thanks.

  45. The anti mask brigade runs the gamut from the truly stupid to those flirting with stupidity.

  46. kurt, on June 24th, 2020 at 12:32 PM Said:
    Mike Pence said 20 years ago that smoking doesn’t kill you
    not the sorta guy you want as a doctor is it ?
    Allan have you got studies to show smoking is fine and lung cancer is just a made-up thing-ama- jig . Recent stats say > 10mill die a year!
    But they could all be state actors .. you just can never tell eh ( wink wink )
    p.s are there any employment sites you know of where I could become a state actor ?
    do they pay well ?

    Says Kurt, as he rolls his daily spliff.

    Well, it’s a black ting…innit.

  47. lol Harri’s peaked early today, its all down hill from now on 😉

  48. Personally, I oppose smoking pot.

    I can’t possibly see how breathing in hot smoke from a product generally without quality controls of any kind is a good idea.

    When a pot smoker coughs, his/her body is telling them not to do it, but they still smoke.

  49. phantom,

    its all skunk these days, that is grown inside in UK, i smell it all the time,
    At least you guys have the outdoors to grow it in the wild . Natural grass

    skunk is x3 stronger than the days I used to partake, and its not the same .
    we had this stuff called pollen , solid , very mellow, similiar to a very decent single malt. Not touched it for many years .. but I’m not opposed to it ofc it should be legal

    on other news ,

    its official, allan is to the Right of Alex Jones . if that’s even possible
    Infowars have their own brand mask selling for $9.95
    https://www.infowarsstore.com/gear/personal-protective-gear/infowars-face-mask

    Allan you should write to Alex and tell him he’s a fake

  50. Isn’t it weird that wearing or not, a mask is now an indicator of where you are on the political spectrum when of course it should be nothing to do with politics.

  51. These guys will make a culture war out of anything.

    The anti mask movement is not only immoral and anti science, it is stupid beyond words.

    Some of these people in Tulsa and Arizona brought the virus back to their families in the name of politics. The worst, most anti Christian people in the world.

    A lot of the pot grown illegally within the US would have nasty chemicals in them.

  52. reckon allan has a fear of being normal, that life is just quite ordinary often boring and dull .. for the avid conspiracy theorist they have to have the adrenalin rush of conspiracy/paranoi ..they’re junkies / addicts
    I’d recommend watching some soaps, episodes of bored housewives ..
    there’s really nothing going on , people are too flawed, secrets too impossible to keep

    you’re better off going on adventures, safe ones, travel for example
    or call up at big booty black lady have some fun .. least its a real experience and you can face your fears allan, might even get a taste for it .. oops hope I’ve not given you ideas Harri 😉

  53. kurt, on June 24th, 2020 at 2:20 PM Said:
    reckon allan has a fear of being normal, that life is just quite ordinary often boring and dull .. for the avid conspiracy theorist they have to have the adrenalin rush of conspiracy/paranoi

    Says Kurt, who believes there is an invisible man that lives in the sky..

    The ultimate conspiracy theory.

  54. Believing In the supernatural is not…normal.

    What believing in God does to your brain
    Researchers found humans suppress the analytical areas of their brain in order to believe in god

    Humans suppress areas of the brain used for analytical thinking and engage the parts responsible for empathy in order to believe in god, research suggests.

    They do the opposite when thinking about the physical world, according to the study.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/what-believing-in-god-does-to-your-brain-a6950956.html

    “When there’s a question of faith, from the analytic point of view, it may seem absurd,” said Professor Tony Jack, who led the research.

    “But, from what we understand about the brain, the leap of faith to belief in the supernatural amounts to pushing aside the critical/analytical way of thinking to help us achieve greater social and emotional insight.”

  55. Says Kurt, who believes there is an invisible man that lives in the sky

    That’s correct H but whatever point you’re trying to make here also refers to yourself when the situation is reversed. You are a confirmed atheist yet seem susceptible to conspiracy theories.

  56. Give me a Christian believer any day of the week over a 9/11 Truther.

  57. That’s correct H but whatever point you’re trying to make here also refers to yourself when the situation is reversed. You are a confirmed atheist yet seem susceptible to conspiracy theories.

    But not the ultimate conspiracy theory.

    Put it down to a complete lack of scientific evidence.

  58. Phantom, on June 24th, 2020 at 2:56 PM Said:
    Give me a Christian believer any day of the week over a 9/11 Truther.

    The latest “mentally ill” cold blooded murderer who slaughtered three innocents in Reading U.K. was a Christian.

    Apparently.

  59. Phantom.

    Knows very much, about well, just about everything..

    Apart from reality.

    😉

  60. But not the ultimate conspiracy theory.

    No, but various, multiple conspiracy theories.

    Whatever point you’re trying to make with the diety belief comment above also applies to yourself.

  61. Paul

    Do you believe there is an all powerful invisible man that lives in the sky?

    Woooooooo!

  62. Credo

  63. Charles you can have credo in the tooth fairy, or leprechauns.

    That doesn’t mean they exist?

    It’s not called “the fear of God” for nothing.

    As for the conspiracy theory of a “second coming”

    I personally don’t have any credo in a first coming.

    My beef is is, it’s sure is ironic someone labelling someone else as a conspiracy theorist, when that same person talks to, and actually beli in the 21st century there is an all powerful invisible man that lives in the sky. And that same all powerful invisible God, going by all the evidence 99.9 % of the time (apart from “it’s a miracle”) couldn’t give so much as a second thought to all the suffering going on in his kingdom.

    There are conspiracy theorists and there are conspiracy theorists.

  64. “It’s a black ting… innit?”

    Almost the first comment he types, but he claims he’s not a racist. What a liar.

  65. Harri

    You are referring to “theodicy,” i.e. how can a Good God allow so much suffering in His kingdom? It has vexed thoughtful believers back to the Book of Job.

  66. Do you believe there is an all powerful invisible man that lives in the sky?

    As I’ve said here many times, I’m a collapsed Catholic who would like to have faith but have never seen any evidence to convince me otherwise. I also don’t believe in multiple conspiracy theories either though so whatever point you were trying to make above about Kurt and subsequently yourself probably doesn’t apply to me.

  67. Seimi in her first post mentions…racist.

    What a bore..

    What a surprise..I’m shocked I tells ya…shocked..

    😉

    Change the record.

    You have just about done that to death..

  68. As I’ve said here many times, I’m a collapsed Catholic who would like to have faith but have never seen any evidence to convince me otherwise.

    Apart from the collapsed catholic part..

    Welcome brother.

  69. Charles in Texas, on June 24th, 2020 at 3:29 PM Said:
    Harri
    You are referring to “theodicy,” i.e. how can a Good God allow so much suffering in His kingdom? It has vexed thoughtful believers back to the Book of Job.

    Yes Charles.

    And no lessons have been learned, well, apart from ever dwindling church pews that is..

    Even after over 2000 years, the suffering still continues..

    This all powerful God who apparently loves everyone, sure does work in seriously mysterious ways.

    This God might lack any empathy whatsoever, but he, or she? certainly makes up with a wicked sense of humour.

    As I have previously said, “pray, pray away until your hearts content, or, you could actually do something useful”

  70. I don’t think any of the people here has ever identified God as an invisible man who lives in the sky. A faith issue is not a fact issue. It really can’t be proven one way or another, however the conspiracy theories can almost always be disproven and that is the distinction.

  71. however the conspiracy theories can almost always be disproven

    Only not be you, going by ATW historical evidence.

    😉

  72. I see far more kindness and love from Christian and other believers generally than I ever do from militant atheists.

  73. Which of Allan’so conspiracy theories do you think has been established as factual?

  74. Change the record.

    You have just about done that to death..

    Stop posting racist shit and I’ll stop pointing it out. Also, stop claiming that you’re not racist.

    I don’t think any of the people here has ever identified God as an invisible man who lives in the sky.

    Several people here have used those words, or very similar words, to describe god(s)

    I’ve always like Billy Connolly’s way of dealing with the issue of religion: if someone believes in god, then he exists, at least for that person.

  75. see far more kindness and love from Christian and other believers generally than I ever do from militant atheists.

    Islamic militant believers?

  76. Which of Allan’so conspiracy theories do you think has been established as factual?

    You’re asking Harri? You’re putting him on the spot now. He parrots Allan endlessly, so I would guess – all of them?

  77. Stop posting racist shit and I’ll stop pointing it out. Also, stop claiming that you’re not racist.

    No please.

    Don’t stop.

    Keep being a bore.

    😏

  78. Which of Allan’so conspiracy theories do you think has been established as factual?

    All of them, until someone can prove otherwise.

  79. Seimi.

    Just call him a racist.

    That will do the trick?

    😉

  80. !!!

    Excellent comedy, the new Carlin speaks.

    Bravo.

    !!!

  81. I’ve always like Billy Connolly’s way of dealing with the issue of religion: if someone believes in god, then he exists, at least for that person.

    So..

    Some conspiracy theories are good then?

    As long as you agree with them?

    Correct?

  82. So Harri admits he automatically believes everything Allan claims.

    Just as we all thought !

    Thanks for your honesty Harri 🙂

  83. Colm.

    And in all your worldly unwisdom..

    You have proven Allan@ wrong….when exactly?

    Please, at least give me something to work on you loon.

  84. Harri

    We all prove Allan wrong just by chuckling at his nonsense 🙂

  85. Colm.

    How scientific?

    You loon.

    😉

  86. I follow my nose Harri… that’s all the science I need !

  87. Harri thinks that people not challenging Allan’s crackpot theories in some way means that Allan’s crackpot theories are true.

    Colm follows his nose. Harri’s nose is so far up Allan’s backside that he can’t see anything except the shit Allan comes off with.

  88. Harri do you think ATW is a speed game? where the quicker you respond the more points you gain on the ladder/leaderboard ?

    then when you crash out after several bottles of vino you can say to the wife :
    “I won honey, kicked me some leftie butt ,you married a winner,darlin'”

    wife: “yes dearest , you’re marvellous , now shall I make you a horlicks before bed” 😉

  89. Kurt.

    You really are quite…insane.

    😉

  90. Seimi, on June 24th, 2020 at 4:27 PM Said:
    Harri thinks that people not challenging Allan’s crackpot theories in some way means that Allan’s crackpot theories are true.
    Colm follows his nose. Harri’s nose is so far up Allan’s backside that he can’t see anything except the shit Allan comes off with.

    And a whole post without the term “racist”

    Impressive, I knew you could do it.

    Well done Seimi.

    😉

  91. Harri, on June 24th, 2020 at 4:00 PM Said:
    I’ve always like Billy Connolly’s way of dealing with the issue of religion: if someone believes in god, then he exists, at least for that person.

    So..

    Some conspiracy theories are good then?

    As long as you agree with them?

    Correct?

    As per usual, incorrect. You have misunderstood what Connolly was alluding to. Having Faith in something is a feeling which transcends logical, scientific thought. To argue with someone of Faith that their beliefs are wrong is as pointless as arguing with you. They will never change, no matter how many facts you present them with, no matter how strong your argument.
    Faith in a god will usually come with a love for fellow man, and a desire to do good. Is that such a bad thing?
    My father wasn’t a church-going man – indeed, he had little time for most priests – but he was a man of strong Faith, something which helped him in his final days and hours with us. It made his passing all the more peaceful, believing that he was going to a better place. Should we have argued that with him? Would it make any difference?
    He also knew that his children had little or none of the Faith he held so dearly, yet that didn’t stop him from loving us all and accepting that we simply believed in something different from him. I find this to be one of the most prevalent things in a person of faith: their understanding that others may not feel the same, and I have only ever felt love and warmth from these people – not hate, or anger, or frustration at my lack of belief – but love for someone who perhaps isn’t in as peaceful a place as they are. As Phantom alluded to above, the love, kindness and understanding of someone with true faith far outweighs the anger and vitriol of someone trying their best to convince a person of Faith that their god doesn’t exist.
    It is not the role of someone of Faith to convince others that their belief is true, just as it is not the role of an atheist to convince others of the exact opposite. They are just two states of being, one where a god exists and one where s/he doesn’t.
    That is why Connolly said, if someone believes in god, then he exists.

  92. And a whole post without the term “racist”

    Impressive, I knew you could do it.

    Well done Seimi

    Just because I don’t insert the word into every comment does not stop you from being one.

  93. That is why Connolly said, if someone believes in god, then he exists.

    You old conspiracy theorist you..

    😉

  94. Just because I don’t insert the word into every comment does not stop you from being one.

    It’s….a miracle..

    😁

  95. I think there is a distinction between faith and blind faith. There are numerous questions, big picture wise, still unanswered. And faith ultimately is about those gaps and those questions. If they were known you wouldn’t need faith. You would have answers and evidence.

    What is more problematic is faith in spite of evidence, like most conspiracy theories, or flat earthers, or creationists etc… were the evidence proves them wrong but they still believe.

  96. gràin-cinnidh..

    Just so I can keep up with you..

    😉

  97. What is more problematic is faith in spite of evidence, like most conspiracy theories, or flat earthers, or creationists etc… were the evidence proves them wrong but they still believe.

    Fear of God?

  98. “Fear of God?”

    Meaning?

  99. Meaning..

    A fear of the supernatural I assume Seamus?

    The stuff of voodoo.

  100. https://www.arkadium.com/gb/games/grand-prix-hero/

    I found a game for you Harri ..

  101. There is no evidence that disproves God. Thus believing, even fearing, God is not the same as believing that the earth is 5,000 years old, or that the earth is flat. Because there is plenty of evidence disproving those ideas.

  102. Kurt.

    I found one for you too..

    By the way, I assume the NHS no longer carry out random drug testing?

    Ironically, Snopes..

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/420/

    😉

  103. There is no evidence that disproves God

    Apart from reality.

    You are correct.

  104. “Apart from reality.”

    Show were reality disproves God?

  105. Seamus.

    Worldwide suffering.

  106. That is why Connolly said, if someone believes in god, then he exists.

    You old conspiracy theorist you..

    You’re still not understanding this, are you? If someone else says they believe god exists, who am I to try to convince them otherwise? I may not believe he exists, but they do. What is so important about convincing them he doesn’t exist?

    I’m not sure how often I can try and explain this to you. It appears that your willful ignorance and driving impulse to mis-understand what I write is a hindrance to both of us.

    Perhaps you’re better just sticking with the glib, ignorant, unfunny one-liners…

  107. “Worldwide suffering.”

    Which doesn’t disprove God.

  108. Harri, on June 24th, 2020 at 5:12 PM Said:
    Seamus.

    Worldwide suffering.

    This highlights man’s inhumanity towards man, it doesn’t prove that there is no god.

  109. Seam, on June 24th, 2020 at 5:15 PM Said:
    Harri, on June 24th, 2020 at 5:12 PM Said:
    Seamus.
    Worldwide suffering.
    This highlights man’s inhumanity towards man, it doesn’t prove that there is no god.

    Two posts by Seimi without the term racist?

    Maybe their is a God after all?

    Just to stop the eternal sufferings of boring us all to death?

    Hallelujah…

    I just needed ..faith.

    Look, Mr Jesus will be requiring many souls as a sunbeam, I just wont be one of them.

    Oh well, never mind..

  110. Seamus, on June 24th, 2020 at 5:14 PM Said:
    “Worldwide suffering.”
    Which doesn’t disprove God.

    Agree.

    And take that evidence to any lab for scientific analysis, it most certainly won’t prove on the side of their being one either..

    Blind faith, the fear of God.

  111. I just needed ..faith

    But you agree that you commenting on Kurt’s faith being the ‘ultimate conspiracy theory’ and you being susceptible to conspiracy theories is the same principle of different degrees?

  112. “ There is no evidence that disproves God. Thus believing, even fearing, God is not the same as believing that the earth is 5,000 years old, or that the earth is flat. Because there is plenty of evidence disproving those ideas.”

    Not to spoiler it for anyone, but there’s pretty much the same sort and level of evidence against all the rest of it too (rising from the dead, turning water into wine, spontaneously flying up into the clouds, walking on water, etc).

    “There’s no evidence against it” is an empty boast when pretty much everything that can be falsified, has been.

    And what’s left standing is not much better than claiming that maybe aliens stole New York last night and replaced it with a perfect replica. After all there’s “no evidence that disproves it”.

  113. But you agree that you commenting on Kurt’s faith being the ‘ultimate conspiracy theory’ and you being susceptible to conspiracy theories is the same principle of different degrees?

    So…

    Kurt is allowed to have “faith”

    But no one else?

    Correct?

  114. Not to spoiler it for anyone, but there’s pretty much the same sort and level of evidence against all the rest of it too (rising from the dead, turning water into wine, spontaneously flying up into the clouds, walking on water, etc).

    Question..

    If there is a second coming, would Mr Jesus still have the ability to actually walk on water?

    I only ask, because of the holes in his feet.

  115. “Not to spoiler it for anyone, but there’s pretty much the same sort and level of evidence against all the rest of it too (rising from the dead, turning water into wine, spontaneously flying up into the clouds, walking on water, etc).”

    Though of course the nature of those beliefs involve a spiritual or supernatural diety. Thus wouldn’t conform to the rules of science. So a human being can’t rise from the dead, a human being can’t turn water into wine, a human being can’t ascend into heaven, a human being can’t walk on water etc… Science has proved that. Given that this is a belief in a God, and faith in a God, it is not been proven that because humans can’t do this that God can’t.

    ““There’s no evidence against it” is an empty boast when pretty much everything that can be falsified, has been.”

    Not necessarily a boast of any sort. Simply a distinction between those things that have been proven to not be true, and those things that have not been proven to not be true. I think science can be reconciled with a belief in God. I don’t believe that science can be reconciled with a belief in a flat earth, or creationism.

  116. Oookay..

    Let’s take America as just one religious example.

    A Bible in one had, a gun in the other..

    You can’t possibly get more dangerous than that.

    Trump out, I’m all for that, Democrats in..

    And then what?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI

  117. Kurt is allowed to have “faith”

    But no one else?

    Correct?

    Answering a question with a question?

    Firstly, Kurt can have what he wants, as can anyone else. I’ve already stated that I’ve never seen evidence of it to convince me.

    Now, to attempt this again:

    You agree that you commenting on Kurt’s faith being the ‘ultimate conspiracy theory’ and you being susceptible to conspiracy theories is the same principle of different degrees?

    You agree that whatever point you were trying to make regarding ‘the ultimate conspiracy theory’ also applies to yourself? Yes?

  118. Seamus.

    The Catholic faith?

    Why are there so many cases of Pedophilia within the Catholic Christian fraternities, …?

    Would this God not disapprove?

    Or would, or should those devout Catholic priests know better?

    Again..blind faith.

  119. c’mon harri paul’s offered you a mirror, gonna have a peep ?

    anyway there’s an interesting seminar on in a min

    do black wives matter .. think I’ll check it out 😉

    I wonder if harri you’ll have answered pauls’ question by the time i get back

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2xdCvhvyqY

  120. You agree that whatever point you were trying to make regarding ‘the ultimate conspiracy theory’ also applies to yourself? Yes?

    Yes, absolutely.

    It applies to anyone with an alternative view, it could be 9/11, building 7, or any other alternative view.

    One mans conspiracy theory, is another’s mans faith..agree?

    It’s what makes us human, it’s what makes us all different.

    The closest person I can work out who is as as close to AI as far as I can tell on ATW, is the perfect specimen ‘Phantom’

  121. Kurt.

    Why not check out white wives matter?

    Check that out, in between gagging.

    😉

    Roll another blunt Kurt…and carry on..

  122. Kurt.

    I will pray for you..

    😉

  123. One mans conspiracy theory, is another’s mans faith..agree?

    No I don’t, not when there’s evidence contrary to conspiracy theories.

    It’s good that you’ve admitted that the standard that you hold others to also applies to yourself though.

  124. “Why are there so many cases of Pedophilia within the Catholic Christian fraternities, …?”

    Paedophilia. None of these silly Americanisms.

    Ultimately I’m not sure there are “so many” cases. Ultimately any large organisation is going to have problems. Abuse in many secular institutions of a similar nature had similar abuse problems. Historical Institutional Abuse seems to have been a problem in general, and not a specific religious problem.

    The major issue in the Catholic Church (which again was not atypical for large organisations) was the coverup of the abuse. The reputation of the Church being placed higher than the welfare of the children.

    “Would this God not disapprove?”

    Absolutely.

  125. No I don’t, not when there’s evidence contrary to conspiracy theories.
    It’s good that you’ve admitted that the standard that you hold others to also applies to yourself though.

    Wonderful news.

    Progress at last.

    😉

  126. Ultimately I’m not sure there are “so many” cases.

    Really?

    That’s an awful waste of $3 billion then?

    Catholic Church sexual abuse cases

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases

  127. Would this God not disapprove?”

    Absolutely.

    And you know this…how?

  128. Seamus,

    “ Though of course the nature of those beliefs involve a spiritual or supernatural diety. Thus wouldn’t conform to the rules of science”

    Then it could make a flat 5000 year old Earth too. You can’t have it both ways.

    Like I said the level and sort of evidence against both is the same. Just saying “well that time it was magic” is not an argument for magic.

  129. Like I said the level and sort of evidence against both is the same. Just saying “well that time it was magic” is not an argument for magic.

    Exactly.

    The long lost days of someone turning a miracle of the “five loaves and two fishes” was bollocks then, and it’s even more so bollocks now.

    If there really is an all powerful God.

    Yemen could do with that miracle right about now.

    And large parts of Africa.

    Or do they have to rely on Capitalism?

  130. Roll another blunt Kurt…and carry on..

    I’ve noticed these kind of comments lately H. As per your susceptibility to conspiracy theories you have a history of inventing online personas for people you have never met and know absolutely nothing about bar what they write on an obscure political blog.

    Inter alia Phantom was a state agent paid to police the internet, I (and Seimi?) supposedly had an alcohol problem, Colm was called ‘Dorothy’ IIRC and as of late lives in a council slum in South London which is so dirty rats won’t even live in it and now Kurt seems to have morphed into what looks like a (Rastafarian?) habitual, dependent marijuana smoker.

    What drives you to do these things?

  131. Like I said the level and sort of evidence against both is the same. Just saying “well that time it was magic” is not an argument for magic.

    Religion?

    An all powerful invisible being that loves us all, and actually created the universe..

    Ooookay.

    And now has about as much empathy as Vlad The Impaler.

  132. obscure political blog.

    Of course.

    You haven’t used that old trope before?

    😉

  133. and as of late lives in a council slum in South London which is so dirty rats won’t even live in it and now Kurt seems to have morphed into what looks like a (Rastafarian?) habitual, dependent marijuana smoker.

    Hands up, it’s a fair cop guv.

    No arguments from me there..

    😉

  134. You haven’t used that old trope before?

    Answering a question with a question again?

    It is an obscure political blog though isn’t it?

    Now,

    What drives you to do these things?

  135. now Kurt seems to have morphed into what looks like a (Rastafarian?)

    Kurt is the ATW male version of Rachel Dolezal:

  136. What drives you to do these things?

    What drives you to repeat yourself.

    14 times is your record.

  137. The non-existence of god can’t be proven, and there’s really no point in trying to prove it anyway. But almost all the assumed effects of a god can be disproven, so if God exists he’s little more than a spectator, and maybe not even that, as he would appear to have little interest in our affairs.

    But one thing that is certain is that God according to the traditional Christian concept does not exist. This figure simply can’t be all good AND all knowing AND all powerful, as Christians consider him to be. If he isn’t all powerful, then he’s not more interesting than any number of other forces in the universe, while if he isn’t all good there’s little point in worshiping him.

  138. What drives you to repeat yourself.

    Normally it’s your constant evasion & attempted deflection.

  139. Normally it’s your constant evasion & attempted deflection.

    But this wasn’t me?

    It was 14 times you repeated yourself to Pat?

    You have form in this..

  140. But this wasn’t me?

    Well, this time it is you.

    It was 14 times you repeated yourself to Pat?

    Was it? Did you count? Can you show where?

  141. I don’t agree that it is certain that God according to the traditional Christian concept (a broad area) doesn’t exist. If I get a slow day I will post on the topic.
    I don’t think anyone can say there is nothing beyond scientific understanding. In fact I think most scientists agree there are many things beyond there understanding.

  142. gosh its suddenly a crime to ask questions to get an answer is it on a political site
    paxman asked 12 times Michael Howard to answer a question
    Harri who was the liar in the exchange ?

    https://youtu.be/0_z3FUjCVVA

  143. Was it? Did you count? Can you show where?

    Yes.

    If I could be actually arsed to trawl back.

    You don’t even remember..do you?

  144. Yes.

    Coud you please show me where then?

  145. “Then it could make a flat 5000 year old Earth too. You can’t have it both ways.”

    It could make one but it clearly hasen’t. It isn’t a case of both ways. It is a case that one has been 100% proved wrong while the other has not been proven either way.

  146. Paul McMahon, on June 24th, 2020 at 6:59 PM Said:
    Yes.
    Coud you please show me where then?

    You can’t possibly be that devoid of memory?

    14 Times is your current record.

    No worries, I was cringing for you mate..

  147. Actually I remember you alleging it but don’t remember doing it.

    Coud you please show me where then?

    See? Your attempted evasion & delection has got me repeating myself again

  148. kurt, on June 24th, 2020 at 6:57 PM Said:
    gosh its suddenly a crime to ask questions to get an answer is it on a political site
    paxman asked 12 times Michael Howard to answer a question
    Harri who was the liar in the exchange ?
    https://youtu.be/0_z3FUjCVVA

    No strawman there then..

    Kurt, do you truly believe their is an all powerful invisible man that lives in the sky?

    And his empathy towards us mere mortals accounts for…zero?

    Correct?

  149. Paul McMahon, on June 24th, 2020 at 7:04 PM Said:
    Actually I remember you alleging it but don’t remember doing it.

    Nope..

    Thought not?

    12 was your average, 14 is your record, same thread, same question, time and time and time again..

    I was on a ten month ATW siesta break at the time.

    You simply must have felt my cringing for you from Hertfordshire UK to Pamplona Spain?

    You have plenty of form on this matter.

  150. Paul

    If I get the time.

    I will trawl back in ATW time.

    Post it, and embarrass you then.

    You don’t even realise you are doing it mate..

  151. So you can’t actually show what you allege then?

    Fair enoug H, in light of your other invented personas for people insistence we’ll just leave it at that.

  152. Post it, and embarrass you then

    Oh no. If what you allege is true I won’t be embarrassed in the slightest. It’ll show that I’m dogged in the face of evasion and deflection. I’m interested in seeing this.

  153. yeah I do Harri,
    as far as the why does god allow suffering? its a tough question
    you’re not the first person to ask it ,

    In brief this is from the bible in one year, its an app which is free to download and you listen 20/30 mins a day , each day and in one year you’ve covered the lot
    Not bad eh .

    Rever Nicky Gumbell had a crack at your question

    Why Does God Allow Suffering?
    A one-year-old boy shattered his back falling down a flight of stairs. He spent his childhood and youth in and out of hospital. Gavin Read, the former Bishop of Maidstone, interviewed him in church. The boy remarked, ‘God is fair.’ Gavin stopped him and asked, ‘How old are you?’ ‘Seventeen,’ the boy replied. ‘How many years have you spent in hospital?’ The boy answered, ‘Thirteen years.’ Gavin asked, ‘Do you think that is fair?’ He replied, ‘God has got all of eternity to make it up to me.’

    We live in a world of instant gratification that has almost entirely lost its eternal perspective. The New Testament is full of wonderful promises about the future: all creation will be restored. Jesus will return to establish ‘a new heaven and a new earth’ (Revelation 21:1). There will be no more crying, for there will be no more pain and suffering. Our frail, decaying mortal bodies will be changed for a body like that of Jesus’ glorious resurrected body.

    Suffering is not part of God’s original created order (see Genesis 1–2). There was no suffering in the world before rebellion against God. There will be no suffering when God creates a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:3–4). Suffering is, therefore, an alien intrusion into God’s world.

    This, of course, is not a complete answer to the question ‘Why does God allow suffering?’ As we saw yesterday there is no simple or complete solution, but each of today’s passages gives us some further insight.

    https://www.bibleinoneyear.org/bioy/commentary/2060

  154. If I recall correctly, even Patrick was embarrassed for you..

    12 times your average.

    14 times, you’re personal record.

    I put it down to morbid fascination and boredom.

    😉

  155. In brief this is from the bible in one year,

    We will leave it there then.

  156. This, of course, is not a complete answer to the question ‘Why does God allow suffering?’

    Maybe if this God actually exists, which I have absolutely no doubt he doesn’t, only in the minds of the weak..

    He is actually one serious bastard sadist.

  157. If I recall correctly, even Patrick was embarrassed for you

    I remember you alleging it but that’s all. I’m looking forward to you showing me this so in lieu of you posting how about me repeating myself again?

    What drives you to do these things?

  158. He is actually one serious bastard sadist.

    That’s not true harri, even this small section show why it isn’t true

    Suffering is not part of God’s original created order (see Genesis 1–2). There was no suffering in the world before rebellion against God. There will be no suffering when God creates a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:3–4). Suffering is, therefore, an alien intrusion into God’s world.

    we live in the middle period, between the creation of the world and the end og the world
    actually we’re really lucky because the saviour has come down and paid all our debts in full forever .. which is really good news and that’s what the word Gospel means
    literally : “a rendering of the Latin evangelium and the Greek euangelion, meaning “good news”

    If you don’t want to hear the good news , then its your choice to remain in chaos
    throwing rocks at the Almighty .. free will ..

  159. paul you got mail !

  160. The suffering aspect is one for which I’ve never quite heard a particularly satisfactory answer. The best I can come to is it is beyond our understanding, though I recognize that is a small comfort at times. I also dont think a belief in God based upon good things (natural beauty, family, friends) is

  161. Seamus,

    “It could make one but it clearly hasen’t. It isn’t a case of both ways. It is a case that one has been 100% proved wrong while the other has not been proven either way.”

    Well fine but then equally it “could” make somebody rise from the dead but clearly hasn’t. We have millions millions of observations of dead bodies in graveyards doing nothing interesting just as we have millions of observations of the earth not being flat, and not being 5000 years old.

    Arguing for that other supernatural stuff is no better than if the flat earther says that the earth is flat, but only when you don’t look at it, because Gandalf can do anything.

  162. A basis.

  163. It is rather the point of faith in a Christian context that rising from the dead was a miracle that can not be explained by science or observation of others. We know the Earth is not flat and those saying so can be proven factually wrong.

  164. mahons, I find the most complete answer to be in the understanding of the fall: there is an adversary who tempts and conspires against God. All suffering , death, pain , disease is a product of man’s fallen state . we’re in a cosmic battles between the forces of good andf evil , but are not abandoned . Its been resolved once and for all, by the saviours Death and Resurrection. That’s what the bible teaches. That’s the deal if you like .. Faith comes from hearing the word and believing it in your heart .
    I like pascal’s
    “The heart has its reasons , of which reason knows nothing ” 🙂

  165. “Well fine but then equally it “could” make somebody rise from the dead but clearly hasn’t. We have millions millions of observations of dead bodies in graveyards doing nothing interesting just as we have millions of observations of the earth not being flat, and not being 5000 years old.”

    Except the fact that rising from the dead was not universal. So the presence of millions of dead bodies anywhere is not evidence that Jesus (and Lazarus etc…) did not rise from the dead. Unless you have evidence that Jesus did not rise from the dead then it is not disproven in the manner that a flat earth, or a young earth, has been disproven.

  166. “It is rather the point of faith in a Christian context that rising from the dead was a miracle that can not be explained by science or observation of others. We know the Earth is not flat and those saying so can be proven factually wrong.”

    Well, it is rather the point of facts in a scientific context that miracles do not happen. Experiments do not take account of the possibility that the prayers of the faithful, or angels and faeries, may interfere with the instruments. The same sorts of methods and information we use to show the earth is not flat also say that people don’t rise from the dead.

    That says nothing about ultimate truth but it is special pleading to say that the Christian claim is somehow less extraordinary or any less contradicted by evidence than is the flat or young earthers. Each statement is as “factually incorrect” as the other, and proof is never available.

    It would be just as staggering to learn that somebody rose from the dead as it would be to learn that the earth was flat after all, despite all appearances to the contrary, and for exactly the same sorts of reasons.

  167. Paul,

    If I recall correctly, Harri did at one stage mention something about me drinking or something, but he also believed I was female. In fact, on this thread he seemed to make the same inference.
    As to his comments about people cringing or feeling embarrassed, you know he’s just making all that crap up, don’t you? He actually believes he’s being a wit, and doesn’t realise he’s only halfway there.

    On topic – faith in a god is not something that can be measured or explained by science. That’s why it’s called faith. I’m an atheist, but a question like, “why didn’t God create a flat Earth?” can be easily countered with something like,” He just didn’t create this world flat. ” No, it isn’t logical, and yes, it contravenes everything we know in science, but can it be proved that such a world doesn’t exist?
    On the news yesterday, scientists announced the discovery of a black neutron star, something up until that point had been declared an impossibility. How do we know that there isn’t stranger phenomena out there, and if there are, how did they get there?
    There are people on both sides of this argument who think it is their duty to ‘prove’ the other side wrong. The majority though, seem to be content just to exist side by side.

  168. Seamus,

    “Except the fact that rising from the dead was not universal.”

    Just everywhere and anytime we look. In much the same way that the earth is not flat everywhere and anytime we look. This argument is basically no better than saying maybe the earth is flat when you close your eyes.

    Besides, many actually religions, and in particular Catholicism do not actually make the claim you make. They don’t say miracles were a one off, coincidentally before the age of cameras. According to them shit like this is still going on all the time.

  169. Unless you have evidence that Jesus did not rise from the dead then it is not disproven in the manner that a flat earth, or a young earth, has been disproven.

    I’m loathe to enter into this debate as it’s a debate from the ages and it’ll come to the same conclusions as others have or haven’t but just on the point above, in order to disprove that Jesus and Lazrus rose from the dead wouldn’t the evidence that they did first need to be examined?

    That’s the essential difference, in the flat Earth argument the subject matter still exists to be disproven.

  170. That resurrection from the dead is impossible is proven not just empirically. A recently dead body and its cells go through hundreds of biological changes that are irreversible. Science is as sure about them being irreversible as it is about anything else. Resurrection from the dead is a scientific impossibility and claiming that it nevertheless happened is in the same league as Allan’s claims. If anyone made similar claims about something outside religion everyone would be calling him a nutcase.

    That being said, science is constantly evolving, revising and expanding. Even parts of what goes under spirituality today may some day get scientific recognition. Nobody, least of all good scientists, is saying that current scientific knowledge is the last word. Who knows what will be discovered in the coming decades and centuries. It could even emerge that our present view of the universe, and the earth or even reality itself was fundamentally wrong. But somebody rising from the dead is as things stand now far less likely than, say, some American planning 9-11.

  171. I’d like to add that religions, especially Christianity, have on the whole done more good than harm overall, and Christians are usally good people. That religion also at least produced an incredible range of art in all fields, that the world would be much poorer without. I was just thinking that, with all the mass tourism from Asia etc, more people have probably now encountered Jesus through art than through religion.

  172. Seimi,

    “There are people on both sides of this argument who think it is their duty to ‘prove’ the other side wrong. The majority though, seem to be content just to exist side by side.”

    An offer that for some reason doesn’t extend to flat earthers, nor really anybody making any other kind of proposition about the world (economics, maths, politics etc). Those we can comment on.

    Nobody says well Patrick says 800,000 attended the rally, these guys say something else, why can’t we all be content to exist side by side.

    I suppose if Patrick had instead claimed that the rally attendees rose up out of the Tulsa cemeteries, then made their way to a convention centre whereupon Jesus flew around the room after feeding them with the loaves and fishes, then we should be less hasty to dismiss it. Because that is somehow less disproven, more likely.

  173. Noel,

    “I’d like to add that religions, especially Christianity, have on the whole done more good than harm overall, and Christians are usally good people.”

    This is just another way of saying most people are good.

    It’s probably true that most people who have made furniture have been religious too, if only because most people who have ever done anything have been religious. It doesn’t mean their religion made them carpenters, or that we’d all be sitting on the floor were it not for the Holy Spirit.

  174. Noel
    There is good evidence , scientific

    1) The studies of the shroud of Turin reveal an X-Ray , 3 dimensional which could not have been painted. So the theory goes that when Christ came back to life, the force and power of that imprinted the xray on the shroud . the scientists who examined it have no other explanation for the 3’d recreation of the face

    .. Indeed Christs own words here to Mary who discovered him say this:

    John 20:17

    “Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”

    The idea is that Jesus knew he was kind of radioactive .. after coming to life again and it would be dangerous to touch him , I bet you’ve not heard this explanation along with the x-ray and evidence

    here’s the video on forensic proof from a criminolgist who examined the shroud

    Its without question a man who went through an extreme torture

  175. 3-D photograph

  176. An offer that for some reason doesn’t extend to flat earthers, nor really anybody making any other kind of proposition about the world (economics, maths, politics etc). Those we can comment on.

    I would guess that an awful lot of people don’t pay any attention to flat earthers. Many do, in fact many go out of their way to argue with flat earthers. But I would guess that most don’t.

    Nobody says well Patrick says 800,000 attended the rally, these guys say something else, why can’t we all be content to exist side by side.

    There are a couple of reasons for that, though.

    1. It was a demonstrably untrue statement.

    2. This is a blog site which caters for, who’s very existence relies on, people discussing, debating and disagreeing on a multitude of subjects, therefore if someone makes an untrue claim like the one above, others will challenge it.

    I suppose if Patrick had instead claimed that the rally attendees rose up out of the Tulsa cemeteries, then made their way to a convention centre whereupon Jesus flew around the room after feeding them with the loaves and fishes, then we should be less hasty to dismiss it. Because that is somehow less disproven, more likely.

    Frank, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Had PaTroll made such a claim, with no evidence whatsoever to back it up, then I would say the majority here would immediately call him out on it, demanding he back the statement up with verifiable evidence.
    If your point is that we should be more willing to believe the claim because PaTroll made it and he has Faith, then I would say, no, that’s wrong. It’s his faith, not yours. Nobody is forcing you to believe what he believes. If he claims that he saw it, but nobody else did, and there’s no evidence other than his belief, in all likelihood he will be disbelieved by the majority. Whether it actually happened or not is immaterial though. If he has faith, he has faith, and people rising from graves or flying around rooms won’t change that.

  177. I thought the shroud had been proved to be false?
    I find it to be a very interesting item, but only for curiosity’s sake. The work that went into it is remarkable for the time, but even the image in the shroud conforms with the western ideal that Jesus was a cross between Robert Powell and Dennis Hopper in Easy Rider.

  178. seimi
    they took a piece that was added on in the 14th Century, and guess what it dated 14th Century
    but the actual cloth that covered his face and body was deemed too sacred to touch, so they have examined the shroud using advanced techniques which reveal the blood and the torture

    This is one of the best sites that deals with the explnation of radiation and UV light

    Fr. Spitzer concludes:

    “Currently, the known laws of physics cannot explain how a decomposing body can emit an intense burst of vacuum ultraviolet radiation. Furthermore, they cannot explain how such a body could become mechanically transparent and emit light from every three dimensional point within it.”

    While it cannot be scientifically proved, it is reasonable to infer that there is some transphysical cause for the emission of this kind of radiation. After all, Jesus was not just raised from the dead, His body changed from a physical one to a glorified transphysical one. Remember, He was able to pass through solid doors, but He was not a ghost; the apostles touched Him, and He ate with them.

    https://magiscenter.com/how-did-shroud-turin-get-image/

  179. ahh I have found the video – its all science and incredibly detailed and in depth
    anyone fancy having a go at it and get back to me ..

    Science and the Shroud of Turin with Fr. Robert Spitzer

    https://youtu.be/BRltpE-XMBE

  180. The shroud is either a miracle or a master piece of davinci status. The carbon dating has been proven to be done wrong, and they won’t let them take another sample.

    The image though is 3 dimensional in the cloth though it actually is on multiple levels of the fibers. no one knows how it could have been faked or how if it is christs burial cloth the parting energy of his soul is supposed to have left the negative image. How that would work no ones been able to demonstrate either.

    It is a bit more though than a curiosity now. If you believe in the power of prayer or any type of metaphysics the garment has been worshiped as “Holy Relic” and has been imbued with the energy of devotion.

  181. Seimi,

    “1. It was a demonstrably untrue statement.
    2. This is a blog site which caters for, who’s very existence relies on, people discussing, debating and disagreeing on a multitude of subjects, therefore if someone makes an untrue claim like the one above, others will challenge it.”

    That’s what I thought, hence why I challenged Seamus statement (http://www.atangledweb.org/?p=83926#comment-797727)

    My assumption is that when people make statements they want to discuss them.

  182. pat
    hi i sent a email to you , on this as it’ll be buried no on comment 158
    for resurrection would you guest post pls 🙂

    i’d take issue with you on one detail in your above comment

    christs burial cloth the parting energy of his soul is supposed to have left the negative image

    I’d argue the opposite, its the return to life, his spirit coming back into his body, the Resurrection itself from being dead dead for 3 days that came with it with a huge burst of light and radiation that burned into the cloth and created the 3-D image .

  183. My assumption is that when people make statements they want to discuss them.

    Frank, if only! I find that many of the statements made here are made without the slightest desire for discussion. They are made as statements of fact, which cannot be refuted. There are some extremely polarised viewpoints on ATW, which has its drawbacks, but it’s very many of these viewpoints which develop in to some of the more interesting debates, even when the person who made the original statement comments no further.

  184. Frank, if only! I find that many of the statements made here are made without the slightest desire for discussion.

    Fair enough, but at 11.42pm I posted the following

    Allan@Aberdeen, on June 24th, 2020 at 11:42 AM Said:

    As for masks, it’s all about social control and, as an exercise, it’s working rather well given that masks for the purpose of preventing transmission of a respiratory virus are ineffective:

    https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy

    Physics and Biology of Viral Respiratory Disease and of Why Masks Do Not Work
    In order to understand why masks cannot possibly work, we must review established knowledge about viral respiratory diseases, the mechanism of seasonal variation of excess deaths from pneumonia and influenza, the aerosol mechanism of infectious disease transmission, the physics and chemistry of aerosols, and the mechanism of the so-called minimum-infective-dose.

    Within the link are several, even many, medical reports which show no effectiveness of face-masks against respiratory viruses……

    Jacobs, J. L. et al. (2009) “Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: A randomized controlled trial,” American Journal of Infection Control, Volume 37, Issue 5, 417 – 419. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216002

    N95-masked health-care workers (HCW) were significantly more likely to experience headaches. Face mask use in HCW was not demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds.

    Cowling, B. et al. (2010) “Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: A systematic review,” Epidemiology and Infection, 138(4), 449-456. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic- review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05

    None of the studies reviewed showed a benefit from wearing a mask, in either HCW or community members in households (H). See summary Tables 1 and 2 therein.

    bin-Reza et al. (2012) “The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence,” Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses 6(4), 257–267. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x

    “There were 17 eligible studies. … None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection.”

    There were no reports cited by any of the cynics to counter the evidence to which I had linked. The sub-linked reports are what they are and stand as they stand, inviting counter-evidence and debate. What follows after my post of 11.42am is a load of garbage, just simple garbage.

    I have just watched a detailed expose of the intended ‘novel’ vaccine to be used against the most dangerous pathogen of the modern era, Covid-19. This vaccine shall modify the DNA of the recipients and the explanation given is very clear, so I’ll shortly post its source and ask Pete to review and decide whether it is worthy of his further comment. My conclusion is that anybody who is stupid enough to believe the Covid-lie and who would wish to take such a vaccine should take the vaccine. Please, please, take the vaccine.

  185. The problem though, Allan, is that your ‘explanations’ and ‘evidence’ are so outlandish, and require the readers here to buy in to your theories about (((you know who))) etc etc, and people just aren’t willing to do that, mainly because most of us are afflicted with this thing called ‘Common Sense.’ You are the Boy Who Cried Wolf X 10.

  186. There is a proper debate to be had on the effectiveness of cotton masks.

    Dr. Osterholm Does not believe that they offer a significant help.

    Others, including the Japanese, Koreans , and Chinese think that they do make a difference in the spread of viruses

    In the USA, it must be noted that New York and New Jersey, which were slammed very hard by Covid, managed to crush the virus for now by use of social distancing. And these states have a high level of voluntary compliance with mask wearing in crowded places.

    The Trumper states, including Florida, Texas and Arizona on the other hand, Have been lax on the social distancing, and they have many more people who refuse to wear masks. Those states have seen very significant recent increases in virus spread.

    I think that the northeast has figured this one out correctly.

  187. cotton masks worn wrong and to long cause hypoxia in anyone with the slightest respiratory condition.

    If you must wear a mask for length it should be the paper surgical mask.

    The only thing that stenched the virus in NY & NJ Phantom was it ran out of kindling. Everyone that was at risk of dying died….. the numbers say it all that cluster has the highest deathrate in the country by far. If that’s what your calling success……

  188. Those who have knowledge in the field don’t say pretty much any of the things that you and Allan say.

    You don’t even know the nature of what the disease is. You think that its the flu when doctors and scientists don’t call it that. But its fun calling it something that it is not.

    Texas and other states, who follow the bad example of your leader, are heading down a really dangerous path.

    https://www.texastribune.org/2020/06/22/texas-coronavirus-cases-hospitalizations-austin-houston-dallas/

    As Texas’ coronavirus cases and hospitalizations continue to break records for a second straight week, leaders and health experts in the largest cities are warning that the state is heading down a dangerous path and hospitals could soon be overwhelmed.

    Gov. Greg Abbott struck a more urgent tone Monday, calling the increases in hospitalizations and cases across the state unacceptable. He said the state would only shut down businesses again as a last resort but cautioned that if trends don’t reverse in the coming weeks, he’d be forced to take action.

    “To state the obvious, COVID-19 is now spreading at an unacceptable rate in Texas, and it must be corralled,” Abbott said during a news conference at the Texas Capitol in Austin.

    Travis County and Austin-area cases dramatically increased over the weekend, surging to 6,210 on Monday, compared with about 4,991 reported Friday.

  189. You don’t even know the nature of what the disease is. You think that its the flu when doctors and scientists don’t call it that. But its fun calling it something that it is not.

    no it’s fun calling it that because it provokes you, that alone is reason enough.

    It’s a deadly virus. It is far from the deadliest and weaker than some that have swept through before and will sweep through again Phantom.

    If modern medicine wasn’t what it is this would have killed as bad as the spanish flu. These viruses pop up, it’s the nature of life.

    Sorry the throw out your dead wagons have been canceled this round, maybe next virus won’t be a covid but a marburg instead that’s as strain that lasts long enough to spread.

    There are more germs, viruses, and bacteria on the planet trying to kill us than stars in the heavens my friend. Sooner or later something will get us.

    now do yourself a favor and read the Talabi article

  190. It’s hard to believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would so glibly dismiss this virus as Troll etc do. Despite what Allan says, hundreds of thousands have died worldwide, and are still dying. Why would you not take that seriously? What does it take for someone to switch from this, “It’s the flu” attitude to taking it seriously? Does a friend or family member have to die? This is why this thing has not gone away. Stupid complacency like this. Arrogant, “It hasn’t affected me or mine so far, therefore it’s not serious,” attitudes, which continue to spread the disease.
    Even if it isn’t serious and deadly enough for you to take seriously, it has still killed more than 120,000 people in your country. Wise the fuck up and stop risking spreading it, you selfish bastards.
    My partner is a key worker, and has been tested 3 times so far, and me and my 10 year old son have had to be tested because of that. Thankfully, we have all tested negative – so far. But it’s selfish bastards like you, Troll, who spread this thing. Again – wise the fuck up.

  191. complacency as always seimi, its deadly smug snobbery
    US records highest one-day total in coronavirus cases since April
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/24/americans-coronavirus-covid-19-cases-increase

    While newly-confirmed infections have been declining steadily in early hot spots such as New York and New Jersey, several other states set single-day records this week, including Arizona, California, Mississippi, Nevada, Texas and Oklahoma.

    North Carolina and South Carolina joined some other states in breaking hospitalization records.

    “People got complacent,” said Marc Boom, CEO of the Houston Methodist hospital system. “And it’s coming back and biting us, quite frankly.”

  192. Is the US a rogue state?

  193. just the corrupt sickly administration Petr
    the good guys are waiting in the wings
    130 days

  194. Seimi.
    //It’s hard to believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would so glibly dismiss this virus as Troll etc do. Despite what Allan says, hundreds of thousands have died worldwide, and are still dying. Why would you not take that seriously? What does it take for someone to switch from this, “It’s the flu” attitude to taking it seriously?//

    To claim coronavirus is just the flu, is demonstrably wrong.
    The worst case of recorded flu in the UK killed about 37000 people in one year.
    Coronavirus has already surpassed that and it’s going to be a lot more by the UK by the end of the year.

  195. https://nypost.com/2020/06/24/arizona-councilman-chants-i-cant-breathe-at-anti-facemask-rally/

  196. Patrick

    The shroud is either a miracle or a master piece of davinci status. The carbon dating has been proven to be done wrong, and they won’t let them take another sample.

    They are not the only two choices. And there’s nothing miraculous as far as I know about the shroud of Turin.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turin-shroud-latest-fake-forgery-scientific-blood-pattern-spatter-study-carbon-dating-debunked-a8450101.html

  197. Dave
    there are as many articles that say its fake as there are saying it isn’t
    one finds the evidence of a Professor of Pathology and Forensic Pathologist in Los Angeles
    pretty compelling nevertheless: Hius focus is entirely ion the injuries of the person covered by the shroud .

    https://www.freechristianteaching.tv/forensic-examination-of-the-shroud-of-turin

  198. It seems fairly ridiculous to even think that it might be real.

    This was a long time ago.

    How many other cloth objects survive from that era / that often conflict torn region?

  199. kurt,
    //there are as many articles that say its fake as there are saying it isn’t
    one finds the evidence of a Professor of Pathology and Forensic Pathologist in Los Angeles
    pretty compelling nevertheless: Hius focus is entirely ion the injuries of the person covered by the shroud .
    //
    Kurt, it’s not a competition based upon the number of articles. It’s about the science and evidence. And repeated tests have shown that the shroud is not as old as it’s claimed to be. But that doesn’t matter because even if it I was 2000 years old, it still doesn’t prove that it was wrapped around the body of a man called Jesus. If he ever existed.

  200. I thought the shroud of Turin was debunked.

  201. dave,

    1)pat and I have said in this thread that they tested a corner piece , not the actual shroud -so of course you’re not going to get a date set in the time frame of AD 1,
    from a piece added on in the middle ages ( after a fire )

    2) the evidence i put up at 1:17pm doesn’t prove it was Jesus, but it does prove the injuries and trauma experienced by the individual are exactly what the gospels claim and the manner in which a person called Jesus was killed and crowned with thorns and whipped and crucified by nails in the hands and feet

    Do you accept both of these points ?

  202. // So the theory goes that when Christ came back to life, the force and power of that imprinted the xray on the shroud . //

    The force and power of what?

    And why did someone use such an indirect method to create an image? Why not just say: “Let there be an image on the cloth”?
    X-rays are a physical phenomenon, so why did someone find it necessary to use them when it shouldn’t really be necessary at all, should it?

  203. Noel
    has was it indirect, it was direct, in as much as that’s what the shroud reveals
    X-ray?, negative photograph? , radiated image? burned into/onto the top surface of the cloth

    the links show that the kind of light required to copy requires is a stadium full of powerful
    lamps, but as that would incinerate the cloth, only UV light with a wavelength of 1 over 40 billion would do it, and the world doesn’t have even UV radiation lamps that get close to that .I thought you were interested in science ?

  204. and going by the date either one….. who had xray technology?

  205. yes pat, they’ve shown its impossiblke to fake, the debate is not about the dates anymore, its about the indivual revealed in the shroud, what happened to him and all the things science can’t explain as regards the photographic negative, the perfection of the 3-D image , etc etc
    that’s where science can assist with its intruments and detection of pollen and blood and so forth.
    Its neatly laid out in that talk
    Science and the Shroud of Turin with Fr. Robert Spitzer

    a subject as serious as this requires a listen to I’d say

    https://youtu.be/BRltpE-XMBE

  206. kurt,

    dave,

    1)pat and I have said in this thread that they tested a corner piece , not the actual shroud -so of course you’re not going to get a date set in the time frame of AD 1,
    from a piece added on in the middle ages ( after a fire )

    2) the evidence i put up at 1:17pm doesn’t prove it was Jesus, but it does prove the injuries and trauma experienced by the individual are exactly what the gospels claim and the manner in which a person called Jesus was killed and crowned with thorns and whipped and crucified by nails in the hands and feet

    Do you accept both of these points ?

    Firstly there seems to be a great deal of confusion over the tests done on the shroud. With those who want to believe this is real, coming up with multiple excuses about why the carbon dating tests provided a later date. have you looked at the evidence from both sides I personally accept the scientific findings that the shroud is much newer than it is claimed to be.

    Secondly, yes I can accept that the injuries on the shroud are in agreement with the injurys sustained by Jesus Christ as depicted in the gospels. However, this proves nothing at all. after all, if you were faking the shroud you’d want to depict these injuries.

    As for your nonsense about intense UV light, that’s a conspiracy theory worthy of Allan.

  207. thanks dave

    1) we’re not claiming anything other than the piece was taken from a sewn on corner, not the shroud, its not an excuse, its not because I want to believe, like i’m moron. I genuinely am a recent convert , only after pursuing the evidence , which is not in the carbon dating, its in the point 2) the photography the xray imaging .. and the light required to make such an image ..

    the points about UV are not nonsense, the scientists are trying to find the answer as to how the Turin Shroud got its image :

    BBC gives a synopsis , 4 possible answers

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33164668

    The first three are readily dismissible , but the fourth gets us into the supernatural realms because science can’t explain it

    4)

    Italian chemist Giulio Fanti of the University of Padua has proposed that the image might have been burnt into the upper layers of the cloth by a burst of “radiant energy” – bright light, ultraviolet light, X-rays or streams of fundamental particles – emanating from the body itself. Fanti cites the account of Christ’s Transfiguration, witnessed by Peter, John and James and recounted in Luke 9:29: “As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.” This is, to put it mildly, rather circumstantial evidence. But Fanti suggests we might at least test whether artificial sources of such radiation can produce a similar result on linen

    we are in new territory dave as no-one before has claimed to come back from the dead
    its entirely plausible and reasonable that the evidence for that is indeed imprinted on the cloth itself. The debate is not concluded by any means .. finer instruments like we see with telescopes are always refining and deepening our understanding of the known and unknown universe ..
    allan ? pls, this is not conspiracy stuff ..

  208. The first three are readily dismissible , but the fourth gets us into the supernatural realms because science can’t explain it

    First off kurt the first three aren’t readily dismissible. That’s just to claim you’re making which is demonstrably wrong. And your supernatural claim is just that, supernatural. There’s no evidence at all to back it up.

  209. I’m pretty sure it was shown a few years ago that a camera obscura and certain chemicals could produce the required image. Both were available in the time od Da Vinci.

  210. “And why did someone use such an indirect method to create an image?”

    I suppose it would be unkind to ask why create an image at all?

    And if one is necessary, what is wrong with, say, 4K HDR in 3D with Dolby surround sound?