215 3 mins 9 mths

There was a Presidential Election, now I believe there was significant fraud, enough to throw the election. The argument among the average person is not worth the time. Very few are read well enough to discuss it knowledgably, and the rest of them are rabid foaming at the mouth with TDS and have long lost the ability to reason.

Now even if you choose as all the courts have to not review the evidence, the fact that is 5 States violated the Constitution. That can’t be denied, but the 9 people in Black don’t feel it worth the time. That in my view was a big mistake. If the evidence and the case is crap you ridicule it in open court and expose it for nonsense. By not granting a hearing the matter is never settled. It also solidifies the belief of the crazies that it is a conspiracy. The long-term effect of not hearing the case is more detrimental than any chaos of hearing it. All of that is here nor there, debate for the scholars’ for centuries.

The last play of this drama takes place on the 6th. The Challenge has been tried several times in history the last was after the Bush v Gore debacle, but no Senator would join the Members of the House Representatives that objected to it so the challenge died. That is the likely result this time also. (Sen Josh Hawley, just said he would object)

The odds are we will still have at least 4 years of a Biden Administration, even if Joe doesn’t last the whole 4. Take away the scare tactics of the worst case scenario’s of what if’s, and look at just what we know they will do.

Rejoin the Paris Climate Accords, Amnesty for 20 Million Illegals, (they already defunded immigration holding facilities in this last Bill), Shutdown of all Wall Construction, and a rejoining of the Iran Deal.

One destroys our economy and our future, the second overwhelms the system causing further collapse of the safety net structure, and the third leads to War in the Middle East.

It sounds like interesting times.

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215 thoughts on “What to say

  1. The argument among the average person is not worth the time. Very few are read well enough to discuss it knowledgably, and the rest of them are rabid foaming at the mouth with TDS and have long lost the ability to reason.

    Trump cultists are so well read and above average.

    Just when you thought the delusion couldn’t get any more surreal.

  2. I speak only for myself Paul…… and yes I am very well read and very above average…..

    as you well know 😉

  3. This post is just my thoughts and musings….. to give Phantom and you a little more than cut and paste of others explaining my points.

    I wanted to go more into detail, but distracted by the peanut gallery on the fight thread…. my ability to focus on more than 3 things has diminished and it is far from a well written piece.

  4. There was a Presidential Election, now I believe there was significant fraud, enough to throw the election. The argument among the average person is not worth the time. Very few are read well enough to discuss it knowledgably, and the rest of them are rabid foaming at the mouth with TDS and have long lost the ability to reason.

    And presumably you include the SCOTUS in that assessment? Because your guy is still petitioning them for a second term. As you have been asked before, where is this “ton of evidence” of fraud and if it exists why have all the legal petitions been lost?

    “US Supreme Court receives the 234th petition from the Trump campaign to overturn the election”

  5. wanted to go more into detail, but distracted by the peanut gallery on the fight thread

    I take it the ‘fight thread’ is the thread on which people are stating facts and you are trying your best to ignore them.

    I’m not going to derail this thread, so I will pose a question on the ‘fight thread.’ I would appreciate an answer.

  6. Trump has unleashed another Twitter barage tonight. Apparently it is now shit or bust on 6 January (Congress will be asked to overturn the EC confirmation of Biden) and this is the latest attempt to get SCOTUS to give him a second term, so he is still fighting on two fronts:

    “The zombie Trump campaign appears to have filed yet another appeal with SCOTUS, this time challenging the use of “laches” to dismiss one of its’ groundless lawsuits.”

  7. I asked you Peter how many cases have the Trump team brought to court. Can you answer that question?

  8. So the voters, poll workers, voting machines, media, Attorney General, Justice Dept, people in charge of election security, lower courts, appellate courts, state Supreme Courts, US Supreme Court and the FBI can’t be trusted.

    But Donald Trump can be trusted?

    You’re in a cult.

  9. cult , and they run through walmart with no masks, crying liberty or death
    what can you say, they running to their deaths – pvr thinks that’s smart ..

  10. They should take away all your guns , and as for “What to say”, simple. There was an election between two candidates. One candidate won. It wasn’t a surprise. He was the favourite. The result was expected . All the fake controversy is entirely invented and absurd. That’s it.

  11. Children, and those with the intellectual development of a child, shouldn’t be allowed have guns.

    Nice catch, kurt.

  12. Has a thread disappeared from ATW while Europe slept?

    What happened to the thread where some bloke claimed that addresses from ‘Republican voting areas’ were on ballots, that these were rejected by Dominion Systems and that he was going to prove it?

    I can’t find the thread anywhere. Has it been withdrawn? and if so why?

  13. Paul, I think the software automatically deletes all posts where certain people make themselves look more foolish than usual.
    Stop the Steal.

  14. These guys read a torrent of lies from the Lie Machine, and they believe every one of them, without any verification at all

    Gateway Pundit now says that up to 400:000 ballots in ( Republican controlled ) Arizona were bad. They’ll believe that too.

  15. I wouldn’t worry too much, Paul. Yesterday, some here were mourning the sad loss of ELO frontman, Jeff Lynne. No-one was more surprised than Lynne himself, who was busy celebrating his birthday at the time.

    And let’s face it – it’s not the first time a post has been edited or simply removed to change its meaning or context.

    What this site needs is a manager. A good one.

  16. Isn’t that thread still there the one called ‘Fraud’ and the Jeff Lynne one is still there celebrating his birthday not his death.

  17. Senator Josh Hawley has confirmed that he will object to the election result in the senate on 6 January. That means a six hour debate and it will be interesting to see how many GOP senators are prepared to vote to overturn the election. The two Georgia senators up for re-elction will probably confirm their support today and no doubt there will be others so shit-scared of Trump’s Twitter attacks that they will join in:

    “But the risk of internal political backlash for Republicans who vote to quash the effort is far from theoretical. After Senator John Thune of South Dakota, the No. 2 Republican, said that he hoped senators would realize the election was over and that attempts to overturn the outcome would “go down like a shot dog,” Mr. Trump called on Twitter for Mr. Thune, who is up for re-election in 2022, to face a primary challenge. “Political career over!!!” the president added.

    The issue could become particularly charged for two Georgia Republicans, Senators Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue, who are facing tight runoff elections next week that will determine control of the Senate. “Everything’s on the table right now,” Ms. Loeffler said at a campaign stop at the Ocmulgee River Gun Club in Macon, Ga. “That vote is Jan. 6, and I’m going to continue to fight for this president because he fought for us.”

  18. What this site needs is a manager. A good one.

    instead we got a cult member ! and reality is blocked out with malice ..lmao

    news: Trump is fleeing back to the WH, salivating over the 6th Jan, like something is gonna happen , which it absolutely isn’t

    apparently he doesn’t like the way Melania has fixed up Mar-a-Lago with new decor
    he’s raging over it , having a meltdown

    lol but where’s he going after 21st Jan ?

    maybe he will be pulled from the WH by security

    Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago meltdown

  19. News: Trump is fleeing back to the WH, salivating over the 6th Jan, like something is gonna happen , which it absolutely isn’t

    Twitteratti speculating that something is going on with Iran.

    Penn has also cancelled trip to Israel.

  20. Paul.

    Trump cultists are so well read and above average.

    Just when you thought the delusion couldn’t get any more surreal.

    They are very well read, it’s just that the only thing they read are conspiracy websites, far right news and and biased blogs.

  21. yeah heard that too paul , he’s put goons in the pentagon for the purpose

    more FUN FACT: According to a
    @DataProgress poll, Georgia independents initially wanted Republicans to prevail by 41-38%. But when told Senate Democrats would pass another round of relief checks if elected, they flipped to favoring @ossoff & @ReverendWarnock by 52-37%. H/T @EricLevitz

    there’s not a cat in hells chance the cult member/manager would put up a thread on the senate run-off, only after , if GOP lose and rigged election will be called

    phantom could you possibly do the honours old chum over the weekend perhaps ? ty

  22. //maybe he will be pulled from the WH by security //

    or maybe from the Potomac.

    But look at this for some really crazy shit (comments, from Paul’s “Pundit” link)

    Abel Washington • 11 hours ago

    That is why they have to cheat they know they can’t win without cheating …. The Democratic Party has turned into a Socialist Party and no Freedom Loving American wants to live under Socialism. As a matter of fact no Sane Human Being wants to live under Socialism and have their God Given Freedoms taken away. Just remember, once a nation of people have tasted of True Freedom like we have in America they will die to protect it and they will NEVER give it up without one hell of a fight. So these Democratic Liberal Socialist are mentally ill if they think True Americans are going to bow to their Socialistic take over. In God We TRUST and God Will Bless America! Deuteronomy 20:3… For it is the LORD your God who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you! Amen and Amen!

    Ripptide_USA • 11 hours ago

    Amen! Soooo true. The cards were stacked against President Trump in the 2016 election, with almost, if not all; the United States Intelligence Agencies plotting against him! – with the help of the American propaganda networks, et. al..There was no way President Trump could’ve won without Divine intervention.

    Maybe the reason God let this fraud go so far is to smoke out the swamp creatures, and unmasked the wolves in sheep’s clothing; like Bill Bar, RINOs, Fake news reporters..

    JESUS is the way, the truth, and the life!

    Lois Ripptide_USA • 11 hours ago

    My faith is the one thing that keeps me at peace, knowing God is in charge & the final chapter has been written Time?

    Tdub • 7 hours ago

    Hillary kept insisting Biden should never concede and the Dems kept alive the scenario that President Trump would not accept the results and would refuse to leave the White House. Gee, I wonder why?

    V.V. • 12 hours ago

    AMEN AND AMEN…. Lois

    Salty 1 Sharp Shtik • 13 hours ago

    Their software fraud couldn’t keep pace with the massive voter turnout for President Trump. In their worst nightmare they didn’t expect the president would receive more votes than any president in the history of American elections. They had to dump hundreds of thousands of fake ballots into the count, and this guy is gonna bust em up for it.

    WTF? It’s harmless having such loons in charge of something like ATW, but I’d imagine it’s scary for an American knowing so many crazed fanatics like this are in his country, not in prison or an asylum, and armed.

  23. Seimi

    I take it the ‘fight thread’ is the thread on which people are stating facts and you are trying your best to ignore them.

    And doing his usual trick of posting as many new threads as possible to move the fight thread off the ATW home page, hoping it will be ignored.

  24. Dave, I was thinking tha same thing.

    I don’t know if Pat is well read in the wider sense but he certainly seems to be well read in terms of rubbish propaganda blogs. Both he and Pete are above average at having ridiculous claims demolished in record time, though.

  25. kurt,

    So the voters, poll workers, voting machines, media, Attorney General, Justice Dept, people in charge of election security, lower courts, appellate courts, state Supreme Courts, US Supreme Court and the FBI can’t be trusted.

    But Donald Trump can be trusted?

    You’re in a cult.

    That’s comment of the day.
    It really puts thier thought process, (or complete lack of it), into perspective Kurt.
    But what you’ve got to remember, is these are the same people who believe that every single scientific institution on the face of the globe, employing highly qualified people who spent their life becoming experts in their Fields, situated in hundreds of separate countries, are all lying about climate change, for no reason whatsoever.

  26. The so called ‘fight thread’ should be pushed off the front page and discarded. It served no purpose other than a place for commenters to compete for who could throw the nastiest most infantile insults.

  27. He skims with a wildly partisan eye, does not read with a goal of understanding. There’s a big difference

    He unquestionably believes everything from Trump and the rest of the lie machine.

    And he never believes anything whatsoever from the other side

    If you have no sense of skepticism or curiosity , how can you learn anything?

  28. “The so called ‘fight thread’ should be pushed off the front page and discarded. It served no purpose other than a place for commenters to compete for who could throw the nastiest most infantile insults.”

    I disagree. Troll always throws the first punch and the whines and moans like a bitch when people throw one back. He is bully, and you stand up to bullies. If one person is a bully and one person is standing up to a bully then they aren’t equally in the wrong, and it is pretty silly to insinuate otherwise Colm.

    And look at Troll’s response. I offered a deal to end all the insults – he accepted – and two hours later he decided to go right back to insulting me, unprovoked. That is a measure of the man’s integrity. That is how honest he is.

  29. Seamus.

    You’re wasting your time trying to get colm to see the truth. but at least he’s gone to blaming everyone, rather than supporting and making excuses for Patrick even when he’s in the wrong.

  30. thanks Dave, 1:24pm puts things in perspective
    I’ve never known anything like this ..almost unimaginable
    that 70 million plus are willing to trash all the cherished norms and traditions
    for a cesspit of lies .. no middle ground is there ??

  31. I knew I would get that response.. Predictable. It’s not possible to actually take a different view. You have to either be in the “Patrick is the evil villain who starts everything” camp or you are accused of sucking up to him. I won’t play that game. Patrick does things that are wrong and does often throw the first punch, but actually this time it was Seimi who started the personal insults and yes Patrick overreacted like he always does, but there are no angels in this fight,just different degrees of troublemaking devils.

  32. Kurt

    It is not 70 million people trashing norms. The claim that ALL those who voted for Trump believe the ‘stolen’ narrative is utter rubbish.

  33. “It’s not possible to actually take a different view.”

    So take a different view then. But people are going to critique that view. You never seem to criticize Troll for his behaviour when it is only Troll enganging in it. But if someone stands up to him you wade in and pretend everyone is equally to blame. I’d agree with you if you called him out for his actions when no one responds but you don’t.

    Also what did Seimi say that was objectionable, insulting or a punch?

    In general however I can only stand by what I did. So when Troll said I wasn’t important enough to debate with, when he decided he wasn’t going to debate with me etc… was that me throwing the first punch as well or was it him?

  34. But there are no angels in this fight,just different degrees of troublemaking devils.

    Actually there are. This began because Pat was grossly heavy handed in banning Seimi and then inventing a story to cover up his faux pas. The wronged party is understandably aggrieved at the heavy handedness and dishonesty and raises it on occasion.

    I generally don’t comment on it as I would prefer to discuss the issues rather than be drawn into a he said/ she said spiral that’s all been covered before but absolutely every regular commentator here knows where the genesis of this umbridge lies.

  35. Correct

    The guys who have no idea of what goes on one county over can’t speak for ” 70 million people ”

    Including the short attention span president who fired by the voters.

  36. “The so called ‘fight thread’ should be pushed off the front page”

    The first rule of fight thread is not to talk about fight thread

  37. Seamus

    You are right I don’t join the chorus to call out Patrick when he is on one of his abusive rants for the same reason I wouldn’t do it to other individuals, not out of any sort of ‘cowardice’ but because it doesn’t work and is counterproductive. All that does is lead to a race to the bottom as each angry abusive reply leads to a lower counterpunch. Trying to ask everyone to ‘chill out’ may seem feeble, fence sitting and a cop out but I think it is the best way of ending an ugly situation. I do however call out Patrick when he does something wrong like the Seimi ban , but Seimi now only seems to exist commenting occasionally here to continue his resentment against Patrick and what good is that to the site. ?

  38. “You are right I don’t join the chorus to call out Patrick when he is on one of his abusive rants for the same reason I wouldn’t do it to other individuals, not out of any sort of ‘cowardice’ but because it doesn’t work and is counterproductive.”

    Well how is calling us all as bad as each other working for you?

    “All that does is lead to a race to the bottom as each angry abusive reply leads to a lower counterpunch.”

    In my opinion you stand up to a bully. It is the only way to get them to stop. The just let Troll attack and insult and abuse people left, right and centre plan in the hopes he stops has not worked. He continues to be abusive, he continues to pick fights.

    ” I do however call out Patrick when he does something wrong like the Seimi ban , but Seimi now only seems to exist commenting occasionally here to continue his resentment against Patrick and what good is that to the site. ?”

    But there in lies the issue. While I have been happy to keep the peace, for the sake of the site (until Troll said he didn’t feel I was important enough to keep debating on the site), the issue around Seimi has never been resolved. Can you blame him for bringing it up. Troll lies, and continues to lie about his reasons for banning Seimi. His apologies were as insincere as the rest of his behaviour. He apologised and then goes back and does the exact same thing again.

    There was nothing in Seimi’s comment that was untrue or objectionable. Seriously, do me a favour and go to Seimi’s comment and find one thing in it that is untrue or objectionable – given that you have accused him of starting all this. Back up your accusation. What was objectionable or untrue about what he said?

  39. The claim that ALL those who voted for Trump believe the ‘stolen’ narrative is utter rubbish.

    Yes, the 70,000,000 rubbish is just more false justification.

    The first rule of fight thread is not to talk about fight thread

    Superb. Contender for comment of 2020.

  40. but there are no angels in this fight,just different degrees of troublemaking devils.

    In response to Patrick claiming that his comment was directed at me I wrote this:

    thought this comment was directed at Seamus, and not to myself as well.
    But to be fair, you could also interpret it the other way around.

    I noticed yet again, that’s some pretty nasty insults and personal attacks have started from the usual source. So much for polite and courteous debate.

    Whilst I genuinely didn’t think Patrick meant that comment for me, being an honest person, I admitted that he could have done. My response was polite and honest. Let’s see what Patrick responded with:

    Here’s polite….. Dave go to hell….. you didn’t think it was directed at you because thinking is just not your forte…..

    how’s that…..

    Yeah, I’m just as bad as Patrick Colm. How are those rose-tinted specs working out for you. Or should that be blinkers.

  41. The first rule of fight thread is not to talk about fight thread

    LOL. And I trust we all know the second rule.

  42. //In my opinion you stand up to a bully.//

    But you don’t stand up to a babbling drunk or to a brick wall. How has your standing up got anyone anywhere?

    You repeatedly insist he is a liar, unable to debate, insults, always goes back on his word, “whines and moans like a bitch” etc.

    He is all that, but then why do you continue to engage with him? Either you believe what you yourself say or you don’t. But if you do, why in God’s name do you try to reach agreements with someone who “lies” and “doesn’t keep his word”?
    It’s all absurd and frankly embarrassing to look at.

    Why not simply ignore him and leave him to “debate” with Colm and Paul and others who apparently still consider it worthwhile?

    That would at least spare us these regular silly “fight threads”, now more frequent and more silly than ever before.

  43. Why not simply ignore him and leave him to “debate” with Colm and Paul

    And everyone else here Noel, including you.

  44. “He is all that, but then why do you continue to engage with him? Either you believe what you yourself say or you don’t. But if you do, why in God’s name do you try to reach agreements with someone who “lies” and “doesn’t keep his word”?”

    Honestly? In a futile attempt to keep the peace, as I’ve tried to do for the last month since this last happened.

    “But you don’t stand up to a babbling drunk or to a brick wall. How has your standing up got anyone anywhere?”

    It hasn’t. But it is better than letting a bully continue to bully.

  45. Seimi, on December 31st, 2020 at 12:30 PM Said:
    Yesterday, the Jeff Lynne thread was titled, RIP Jeff Lynne.

    That’s because I was doing the Dawn Wells piece at the same time and got distracted.

    Excuse me all to hell…..

    Now yesterday you 4 kept it to one thread and Colm is right it should be pushed off the front page because that’s exactly what it was 4 idiots myself included just throwing insults.

    I really can’t believe I wake up you’ve spread it instead of ending it……. let me go through the litany of idiocy and then I’ll have more to say.

  46. Has a thread disappeared from ATW while Europe slept?

    What happened to the thread where some bloke claimed that addresses from ‘Republican voting areas’ were on ballots, that these were rejected by Dominion Systems and that he was going to prove it?

    I can’t find the thread anywhere. Has it been withdrawn? and if so why?

    So? Do we have a disappearing thread?

  47. ” Gateway Pundit lied to me and I was gullible enough to believe it. Let’s delete the reference and people won’t think that I ever believed the nonsense. “

  48. Noel it’s correct of course, we’re never going to get anywhere talking to Patrick. If you look back over the years you’ll see many, many threads, (except the ones that have mysteriously disappeared), demonstrating the same abusive behaviour towards others from Patrick.
    So many good people, who longer post on here have had aggressive confrontations with him, but in his twisted mind, it’s everybody else who is wrong and he’s right. That should tell you something important about him right there.
    Patrick is like an abusive husband. The anger builds up inside him, he beats his wife and then he wants everything to return to normal and his wife just to forget about it.
    Nothing will ever change, it’s his psyche. Like the abusive husband he needs this release of anger on ATW. And even ignoring him won’t change that.

  49. Noel i see where you’re coming from ,
    it does require a bit of discipline to restrain
    I guess it hard, for me its a bit like a ass-scratch or a bit of bum-fluff
    that you need to get out , as its niggling your behind, that’s my excuse for feeoing the troll – not brilliant , but there it is 😉

  50. Yes and have you noticed that these “frequent threads” all involve the same 3 people besides myself.

    So I’m a Liar and a Bully, I edit things away, I pick on you…..

    I don’t Lie, Fighting back insults from people is not bullying, I haven’t edited away anything in a very long time.

    Now this thread is ruined thanks to Dave and Seimi…… Thank you gentleman. You prove who you are daily.

    Now I ask all of you who want to bitch and complain please go do it on the fight thread stop your whining or leave. I won’t have the same people ruining every thread.

    If it comes down to it I will clean house.

    If I am so horrible you should not want to be here, but you are. As Noel has pointed out I am very easy to ignore, but the same 3 can’t help themselves.

    If I have to ban anyone I will and if the rest of you leave you leave. It really is as simple as that.

    Now I would appreciate it as I am sure everyone else would if you would keep your complaints to one thread or email me direct everyone of you has my email, but stop spreading your whining and your personal attacks to every thread.

    Tonight is New Years Eve….. Start the year with a different attitude gentleman.

  51. Phantom, on December 31st, 2020 at 3:03 PM Said: Edit Comment
    ” Gateway Pundit lied to me and I was gullible enough to believe it. Let’s delete the reference and people won’t think that I ever believed the nonsense. “

    Phantom the only people lying are the democrats.

  52. None of these are personal attacks. They are all the truth. You are a liar. You lie on an almost pathological level. You are dishonest and have absolutely no integrity.

    So go fuck yourself. You lie – I call you a liar. You quote racists – I point that out. If you don’t like it then tough. I don’t give a fuck.

  53. Has a thread disappeared from ATW while Europe slept?

    What happened to the thread where some bloke claimed that addresses from ‘Republican voting areas’ were on ballots, that these were rejected by Dominion Systems and that he was going to prove it?

    I can’t find the thread anywhere. Has it been withdrawn? and if so why?

    So? Do we have a disappearing thread?

  54. “I don’t lie…”

    That in itself is a lie.
    Do you admit that you banned me for no good reason?
    Do you admit that you lied about your reasons for doing so?

    As for, ‘it’s always the same three people…’
    This is simply a lie as well. Three people consistently call you out when you lie. Most others have either stopped coming here (Mahons, Daphne etc) or have just given up on calling out your bullshit, because they don’t see anything of substance coming from it (Noel, Paul etc).

    But everyone here knows that you lie.

  55. I asked you to carry this to the other thread and you don’t even have the decency to do that……

  56. “You just want me to ban you so you can play martyr…. oh boo hoo”

    Nope. Just treating you with the contempt you deserve. Nothing I have said is untrue. You are a liar who quotes and reposts racists. And I will keep pointing that out.

  57. “I asked you to carry this to the other thread and you don’t even have the decency to do that……”

    Given your dishonest behaviour on the other thread you don’t get to talk about decency.

  58. Paul no threads or posts have been deleted.

    What thread is missing?

    The one where you blocked an unsourced quote claiming that ballots coming from perceived ‘Republican areas’ were recognised and automatically discounted by Dominion software and that Phantom and I asked you to post the source.

    The one with Jovan Pulitzer

  59. that thread should still be there, and I posted the source twice, Phantom attacked it because it was Gateway, and I told him and you gateway wrote the story, but the legislature held the hearing and and voted unanimously for Pulitzer to do the Audit.

    I deleted no threads or comments, I will scan the site now, but if there is anything missing it really wasn’t me.

  60. “When we talk in private, I haven’t heard a single congressional Republican allege that the election results were fraudulent — not one. Instead, I hear them talk about their worries about how they will ‘look’ to President Trump’s supporters.” – Sen Ben Sasse, Republican

  61. I can’t find the thread anywhere. Has it been withdrawn? and if so why?

    So? Do we have a disappearing thread?

    Okay, it seems we don’t. I’m glad my question was finally answered.

  62. Nice apology

    That’s precisely what it is. I very rarely get things incorrect but I’m not infalible and when I do I publicly admit it and apologise for the mistake.

  63. And if Troll had a tenth of the honesty and integrity that Paul has then the last few months could easily have been avoided.

  64. Tomorrow is the first day of a New Year. I wonder if it will be different here on ATW ?

    I will keep my fingers crossed and hope it will be.

  65. It would be a fine idea to start the new year with no memory of old disputes.

    Life’s too short.

  66. Colm, I offered him a deal to put all this unpleasantness behind us. I even agreed to not point out his lies, and his quoting of racists, which aren’t attacks but still trigger him. Troll accepted the deal and then not two hours later, unprovoked, tore it up. This is on him, and no one else. If ATW is to change then Troll needs to change. If he won’t then ATW won’t.

  67. Well said, Seamus.
    I would love to go into the new year with all issues resolved here, but that is completely out of my hands, and I don’t believe Troll has either the insight or the humility to do the right thing here.

  68. Seamus

    There is another way. Don’t fight fire with fire. If Patrick does start a fire storm and is responded to with flowers, everyone will see clearly and only where the fire is coming from. The argument over who threw the first punch is irrelevant if everyone can see only one person throwing punches.

    Phantoms point is also a good one. Why not all of us stop mentioning the infamous ban. Nothing will be resolved by bringing it up over and over again. I know I feel as if I am banging my head against a brisk wall and I will probably be ignored but hey, it’s worth floating it as a suggestion.

  69. No Colm. I offered Troll a deal. He said fuck off. So he can fuck off and die for all I care. The idea that he can be abusive but people can’t even point out when he is lying is insane.

    So, short of him accepting the deal and apologising, I will not be abusive. I will point out when he is lying. I will point out when he is quoting racists. And if he doesn’t like it he can accept the deal and apologise, or he can’t go fuck himself.

  70. Patrick

    Now this thread is ruined thanks to Dave and Seimi…… Thank you gentleman. You prove who you are daily.

    As I pointed out, YOU were the first person to cast nasty insults towards me.
    Go on, prove me wrong you dishonest sack of shit.

    I have no intention of leaving. The only way you’ll get me off this site is to ban me

    I’ll be here, with the rest of the decent people to point out your hypocrisy and bulshit. Duck it up, clown boy.

  71. gents , the problem is not going away, sorry to say
    most if not all of you guys are well above average intelligence ,
    I’d say of superior minds if i was asked ( term used by psychiatrists bye the way )
    anyhoo, diagnosing, gathering, weighing, balancing, assessing is in your very DNA
    you don’t want to be stupid, you want to get things right and be informed properly
    it matters to you above ALL

    alas the opposite is the case as regards , most certainly pvr and petem lets it slip too much
    there’s no in between here

    stupidity, lies, falsifications are just anathema to us and always will be
    the site will be the death of you all
    because here STUPIDITY is the KING
    that’s what you’re supposed to be worshiping, NOT Truth and integrity

    can’t work this .. unless you all agree to be dumb fuks and take it up the ass
    and swallow lies , embrace a cult .. which you’re not !!

  72. Seamus, on December 31st, 2020 at 5:48 PM Said: Edit Comment
    No Colm. I offered Troll a deal. He said fuck off. So he can fuck off and die for all I care. The idea that he can be abusive but people can’t even point out when he is lying is insane.

    So, short of him accepting the deal and apologising, I will not be abusive. I will point out when he is lying. I will point out when he is quoting racists. And if he doesn’t like it he can accept the deal and apologise, or he can’t go fuck himself.

    I didn’t take your deal because you insisted in it that I’m a Liar and it’s just too bad I have to accept YOUR abuse.

    No Seamus as usual you view yourself as a victim except the only thing you are is a commenter on a site that you don’t own, don’t write for, and are a guest.

    You seem to think that if you get banned that’s it the site is dead all gone Seamus has been tossed from the bar, that’s it Bar closed…. that is laughable.

    If you get banned yes the site will go in an uproar, yes a couple of others will leave which is not a bad thing, but the site will continue. Just without you.

    Even if everyone leaves and there are no comments the site will eventually get more.

    You are not important to the site continuing.

    You really should ask yourself how YOU are viewed by the People running the site, do you contribute more or cause problems more ?

    That is the scale that YOU will be weighed on.

    The other side is ask yourself what can you do to remain a guest, because you are a guest in someone else house.

    I have said it and I will repeat it for the very last time. I am neither a Racist or a Liar. I will not accept being called either one. I will not accept You or anyone else hounding me or anyone on this site.

    You can criticize, you can laugh at me, you can curse me, you can say that I’m wrong.

    Now if in your mind that means I can’t be criticized well that once again is on you not anyone else.

    You are a guest in this house, your behavior while here determines whether or not you stay. NOTHING you say or do can effect whether or not I do.

    That is not an ultimatum, or a threat. It is the facts nothing else.

    I ask you kindly to stop.

    Now you decide what YOU want.

  73. pat you’re a wanker
    you can get be literate when you want to be
    but you chose not to be 99% of the time, when you’re spreading your trumper BS
    now you’re being all faux-noble cos you realise that your behaviour is a constant problem
    on this site .. and flipping it on seamus, like he’s done wrong
    you’re everythign that’s wrong with this world
    I hope you die horribly and in great pain – fuck you forever .. good nite
    fuck atw , fuck your new year love in , puke shit

  74. Your saying that you don’t lie IS a lie. You lied when you banned me and have continued to lie since then, and now you are lying about lying.

    And your lack of respect for the people who comment here is duly noted.

    Whatever David is paying you for working here, he should consider cutting it, because as ‘site manager’ you are doing an absolutely shite job.

    Your actions are dictated by your emotions, and emotionally you are a thin-skinned dwarf. For example, you will cry and whine that I am ‘attacking’ you here. I am not. Nothing I have said is a lie. Most of it is fact, the rest is my own opinion, based on your actions. And the only way for you to prove my opinions wrong, would be for you to do the right thing, and I believe you are incapable of that.

    As Dave Alton said, the only way to get rid of people here will be to ban them. Do you really believe that the actual owner of the site will support you, if you start banning people who call you out on your bullshit?

    And while we’re on the subject of Dave – he is one of the most civil, interesting, well-informed commentators here, yet you keep saying he’s a troublemaker. He isn’t. You just can’t handle him.

    You need to seriously catch yourself on.

  75. I’m a manly sort of way, of course.

    That explanation makes it sound even gayer 🙂

    Have a great 2021 Dave !

  76. Wonderfull. I get 5 love hearts from Dave. Now if only you could send the same amount to Patrick 🙂

  77. “I ask you kindly to stop.”

    Go fuck yourself Troll.

    When you lie I will call you a liar. When you quote racists I will point that out. If you don’t like that I don’t care. Go fuck yourself.

  78. “I ask you kindly to stop.”

    This is a tactic used all the time by Troll. Attack people, insult them, rage and bellow and scream through the site, and then post something along the lines of, “Gentlemen, I ask you kindly to stop. You are like my family here. I love you all. I may be rough, and I am a total bastard, but all I want is peace. The choice is yours.”

    It’s all show, and only there so that Troll can turn around later and say, “Who, me? I didn’t start any fight. In fact. I asked for it to stop, but Seamus/Seimi/Dave/Mahons/kurt/Paul/Noel/Daphne/Phantom/Delete as applicable just wanted to keep going, therefore it is their fault.” It never appears to occur to him that the common denominator in all these rows is him.

    The funny thing is, I think he actually believes it. Worse still, he actually believes other people are fooled by it.

  79. scanning the papers on a hangover , this one caught my eye

    Facts won’t fix this: experts on how to fight America’s disinformation crisis

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/01/disinformation-us-election-covid-pandemic-trump-biden

    Its a good read, bleak as it is though

    “We have an emotional relationship to information. It is not rational,” Wardle said. But people who work in the “quality information space”, Wardle’s term for journalists, scientists, researchers and factcheckers, still often act as if information-processing were fundamentally rational, rather than deeply tied to feelings and the way a person expresses their identity.

    It’s crucial to understand that the way people process information is through entire narratives, not individual facts, Wardle said. Trying to combat disinformation through factchecking or debunking individual false claims just turns into an endless, fruitless game of “whack-a-mole”.

  80. Seamus, on January 1st, 2021 at 10:06 AM Said: Edit Comment
    “I ask you kindly to stop.”

    Go fuck yourself Troll.

    When you lie I will call you a liar. When you quote racists I will point that out. If you don’t like that I don’t care. Go fuck yourself.

    If I ever Lied you could, since you quote IRA terrorists and support their cause YOU are an IRA Terrorist.

    Seamus

    I’ve tried ignoring this crap, I’ve tried multiple times fighting about it. I even just tried explaining to you that you are a Guest here.

    The Response…… Go fuck yourself Troll

    Sorry it doesn’t work that way.

    If you continue along the lines that you have you chosen in this new year you will be tossed from the site by your own actions.

  81. Why are you denying that you lied? Everyone here knows that you did. Absolutely everyone.

  82. kurt

    That article simply explains what it is to be human. Very very few individuals honestly base their political identities on dispassionate evidence. They affiliate with a particular political or social perspective and seek comfort from ‘evidence’ that supports their feelings. It isn’t something that has just emerged in the Trump era or among the Right. It has existed for all time, eve since Man was able to make speeches and proselytise. The left do not have a superior ‘scientific’ method of reaching their conclusions. They can and are just as moulded by by prejudice and comforting disinformation too.

  83. glad you read it colm, yes the article said this pollution has been going more sharply for 20 years
    I think you’re missing alot of detail though in your attempt to water it down

    compare to UK

    This “serious fragmentation” of the American media ecosystem presents a stark contrast with, say, the UK, where during some weeks of the pandemic, 94% of the UK adult population, including 86% of younger people, tuned into the BBC, a publicly funded broadcaster, according to official statistics.

    The stand out for me is this :

    ““What does it look like if we don’t have a shared sense of reality?” said Claire Wardle, the executive director of First Draft, a group that researches and combats disinformation. “We’ve seen more conspiracy theories moving mainstream. There’s an increasing number of people who do not believe in the critical infrastructure of a society. Where does that end?”

    What if anything stood out for you ?
    Because if you don’t see a problem then you must be blinkered, the damage is accelerating not a steady pace of equivalence as you seem to be suggesting

  84. Maybe we should ask ourselves why the animosity on ATW really seems to have boiled over at this particular time. Especially as each of us is more or less commenting no differently to how we we have always done in the past.

    I think the sheer volume of lies and hypocrisy that came to a head in US politics in 2020 is very much part of it. All that hatred and falsehood must register somewhere between disturbing and horrifying for anyone with any respect for the truth and common decency. But we are of course all powerless to do anything about it, or even vent our anger at those most responsible. We can, however, get stuck into those who support it and continue it on this site.

    On the other side, a lot of people have seen their fondest hopes and dreams dashed, even if they don’t admit it. The Republican party may have gained seats, but its antics in the two chambers and elsewhere since the election are an absolute mess and a political farce.
    I can’t help comparing it to the top Nazis in their bunker in Berlin in April 1945 when their world was collapsing around them and former allies abandoning them one by one – the alternating bouts of despair and frantic hopes, continuing loss of any sense of reality and lashing out in all directions, and ultimately a descent into pure insanity.

    As for 2021, I echo the calls to put the past behind us. There must be some statute of limitations sooner or later.
    If people can’t engage with Patrick without things getting into such a mess, they should simply not engage with him. Otherwise this place soon won’t be worth visiting.

  85. good summary and thoughts that there Noel, what high EQ you have .
    I think the format doesn’t help: 95% of posts are by the two here who have the least regard for the truth, instead opting for what is plain and simple propoganda, as you suggest the madness we witness with the final days of the Third Reich .

    Now that’s always going to grate erstwhile people here , who value reality over fantasy
    sparks fly , always, as Truth Matters above all , and its contrary LIES stand in opposition .
    What gives way ? Posts “Filled with fancies and empty of meaning”

    Did Eliot predict twitter 😉
    This Twittering World

  86. Nice find (the prediction), kurt.

    Yes, I was going to mention also the two posters, both on the same extreme end of the line and both engaged in the propaganda sector (tho God knows why, they don’t seem to be convincing anyone). The site desperately needs someone to provide a bit of balance.

  87. kurt

    You continue to make the same comforting mistakes. It is ‘the other side’ namely here Pete and Patrick that have the least regard for truth in your opinion rather than look at the beam in your own eye. We are all capable of that. Pete and Patrick would I am sure say the same thing about you and others on ‘the left’. The trouble has got worse over the last 20 or so years as the article claims not because people have become more easily fooled or consumed by ignorance or bigotry but for a purely technical reason, the WWW. It has enabled a billion pieces of data to flow into our minds at the click of a button. Anyone can ‘prove’ whatever the want. Anyone can post whatever they want . I could post a hundred links to websites that contain ‘evidence’ that Elvis Presley is still alive and enjoying a quiet retirement somewhere but would anyone serioulsy believe it.

    We should post our opinions here and not demand ‘evidence’ of others claims as so often happens because in truth we will rarely believe other people’s proofs if they clash with our own preconcieved preferred outcomes. This is what I think causes a lot of the bitter animosity that happens here . People want to be believed and get angry if they are not. Post your views and read others but don’t seek to ‘convert’ because overwhelmingly you will fail in that endeavour and that applies to everyone here, left, right and neutral.

  88. We should post our opinions here and not demand ‘evidence’ of others claims as so often happens because in truth we will rarely believe other people’s proofs if they clash with our own preconceived preferred outcomes.

    With the greatest of respect Colm, that’s a ridiculous comment. This is an exaggerated extreme but are you seriously suggesting that I could claim you are a goat and expect people to believe it without evidence? If the defence is that people wouldn’t believe such a ridiculous claim then that might well be true but such ridiculous nonsense then undermines the lifeblood of any political blog – discussion.

    Kurt’s correct, the two major contributors to ATW don’t inhabit the world of factual reality, Pat’s a glorified Trump propaganda machine and Pete, impishly humourous as he may be, ceased to be a serious commentator a long time ago and now is little more than a serial leftie winder upper.

    As for ‘evidence’ clashing with others’ preconceived preferred outcomes, I can only speak for myself in stating that I have never, ever, ever deliberately posted an untruth on ATW and have always meticulously checked any claims I made to ensure them verifiable.

  89. Kurt’s correct, the two major contributors to ATW don’t inhabit the world of factual reality, Pat’s a glorified Trump propaganda machine and Pete, impishly humourous as he may be, ceased to be a serious commentator a long time ago and now is little more than a serial leftie winder upper.

    Then why stay, and why come here?

  90. The site desperately needs someone to provide a bit of balance.

    I’ve offered everyone on this site the opportunity to write.

  91. Then why stay, and why come here?

    Partly because I’m a bit of a masochist but mostly because I enjoy dispelling baseless propaganda.

    Although I have to say, over the last while the attraction has been diminishing.

  92. It’s long diminished and become outright unpleasant. That is the point.

    The site is a rightwing site, it promotes rightwing points of view.

    Points can be argued, points stopped being argued and the point makers have been attacked rather than the positions they put forward.

    You manage without getting hostile. We disagree on everything, but it’s been a long time since you and I have gone after each other one on one.

    You also were given the opportunity to write anything you wanted I only ever turned down one of your pieces. The opportunity to present opposing points of view has been offered.

    Like Noel, you and I have reached an accord for the most part. So once again it can be done.

  93. “We should post our opinions here and not demand ‘evidence’ of others claims as so often happens because in truth we will rarely believe other people’s proofs if they clash with our own preconcieved preferred outcomes.”

    Ok that is just downright silly Colm. If one asks for evidence and that evidence comes from serious journalists, scientific publications, data, and dozens of other sources with a history of accuracy, then people will believe that evidence. If that evidence comes from far-right hate blogs, and random guys on twitter, and the conspiracy theory types, often racist or anti-semitic ones, that Troll get’s his evidence from, then people will not believe that evidence, because it isn’t evidence. It isn’t our job to massage Troll’s ego, or to stop him having a temper tantrum. If, and frankly normally when, he posts bullshit everyone should be wanting to point out that it is bullshit. Now you are saying we can’t even do that because it makes Troll angry. Well fuck Troll, and fuck anyone else who would get angry at getting their points disproved.

  94. Pat you are entitled to a different view, you are not entitled to magical facts

  95. “I don’t need my ego massaged but you need yours deflated.”

    You keep telling yourself that. Also, by the way, go fuck yourself.

  96. Emerald Pimpernel, on January 1st, 2021 at 5:17 PM Said: Edit Comment
    Pat you are entitled to a different view, you are not entitled to magical facts

    Those vwho believe in Man causing Global Warming believe in magical facts.

  97. “So Seamus when you get banned what do you think is going to happen?”

    Honestly don’t care. You’ve been looking to ban and get rid of people who disagree with you for months now. So if this gives you the pretext then I’m sure you’ll see it as a service. One more step towards your far-right, white supremacist, anti-semitic echo chamber. Just you and Allan in the end.

  98. You also were given the opportunity to write anything you wanted

    And as I’ve stated, the waiting time, sometimes minutes, sometimes hours, occasionally longer and the developments that my occur between the time of writing and that of publishing is very offputting.

  99. It’s not a reflection on you, this isn’t about you.

    It’s merely a statement of fact of what it is.

  100. No Seamus I’ve been trying for a year to get you and your cohorts to stop the baseless personal attacks.

    I’ve asked I pleaded, I’ve fought, I even suspended one of you to make the point.

    A point you’ve decided to fuck me about.

    You think you’re entitled to shit on the living room floor of a another persons home and they aren’t going to react.

    That’s not reality. That’s the thinking and behavior of an alcoholic.

  101. Paul and Seamus

    You misunderstand me, but I expected you would. You also once again claim I am trying to ‘shield’ Patrick which is utterly false, so I don’t really see what more I can say if you both wilfully misinterpret my views.

  102. And as I’ve stated, the waiting time, sometimes minutes, sometimes hours, occasionally longer and the developments that my occur between the time of writing and that of publishing is very offputting.

    A valid point. But look at the response’

    sorry if I’m not fast enough for you.

    How sensitive must you be to see Paul’s point as a criticism of you? This is probably filed in Troll’s head as an ‘attack.’

    It’s not a reflection on you, this isn’t about you.

    It’s merely a statement of fact of what it is.

    This is how bad things are here. The posters have to reassure the ‘manager’ that they are not crticising him when they comment.

    “I even suspended one of you to make the point.”

    No you didn’t. Who did you ‘suspend’?

  103. Firstly this isn’t your home. You are just the squatter.

    Secondly you didn’t suspend me. You banned me. Stop lying.

    Thirdly, I haven’t been engaging in personal attacks (though you have). I call you a liar because you are a liar. You post the views of white supremacists and anti-Semites. Pointing these things out aren’t personal attacks but simply the truth. I know recognising the truth is alien to you given how often you lie.

    Fourthly, go fuck yourself Troll.

  104. Colm,

    Ok if we haven’t understood your words, about not asking for evidence, what did you mean by that?

  105. You also once again claim I am trying to ‘shield’ Patrick

    I’ve made no such claim Colm and it wasn’t my intention to make such a claim either.

    You’ve misinterpreted my intentions.

  106. Seimi, I didn’t see it as a criticism. His points are honest and real, as is my sorry I’m not fast enough for you.

  107. Seamus and the rest of you are not only attacking me.

    You’re attacking Colm for his stance with me, you attack Noel for his method of handling me. You attack anyone that does not tow your line.

  108. I’m not attacking any of you. I’m pointing out some inconvenient truths for you, and discussing an issue with Colm.

    Also, go fuck yourself Troll.

  109. I haven’t ‘attacked’ anyone. I have stated facts and been honest. Your 5.39 re Paul suggests you admire that approach, so really, you should be thanking me.

  110. I can’t speak for ‘the rest of you’ (whoever they may be), but I’m replying to a comment Colm made regarding evidence and a comment where Noel specifically referred to me.

  111. I don’t feel I am being attacked. If I criticise others here I fully expect them to reply. We all have faults here but we prefer to point out others rather than our own, and I am not exempt from that. I could list where I believe Patrick’s Seimi’s Seamus’s Noel’s Kurt’s Pauls’ and everyone elses faults lie here but all I would be doing is placing a halo on my own head, so perhaps we should all take our own halos off our heads rather than pointing out the horns on others 🙂

  112. I could list where I believe Patrick’s Seimi’s Seamus’s Noel’s Kurt’s Pauls’ and everyone elses faults lie here

    You couldn’t in my case, unless being incredibly fucking superb is a fault.

  113. //Pointing these things out aren’t personal attacks but simply the truth.//

    I keep hearing that said here, sometimes alternated with “insult”. But the truth/falseness of a statement has nothing to do with whether the statement is or is not a personal attack or an insult.

    You can attack people with the truth (it would be foolish to do otherwise), and the bitter truth can often be an insult.

    Don’t tell me if you saw what would normally be considered a plain girl at a party and you tell her in front of people she’s ugly, that that isn’t a personal insult. Of course it is.

    Calling someone a liar is always a personal attack, irrespective of the truth of the claim. Let’s get real.

  114. Been thinking a lot about opinions and evidence lately. I think Colm makes a good point at 4:10, and Paul’s reply is equally valid, but there’s a great deal of difference between making a simple claim which can easily be proven/disproven such as “Colm is a goat” or “it’s about 2 degrees C outside London right now”, which I could investigate personally, as opposed to “socialism is evil” or “mankind’s actions are causing the earth to warm at an unsustainable rate”. I can’t prove or disprove those statements personally, instead I have to kind of gradually decide who and what I believe, based upon a lifetime’s experience of people’s motivations, outcomes, etc. I could post links to 20, or 200 articles from people I “trust” but even that is not really evidence, all I’m actually saying at the end of the day is “these people say this stuff and I believe/trust them”.

    So how to decide which voices to trust, if any? All I can think of is that as a rule I’m more likely to distrust articles or sources which seem to be trying too hard to make me believe them, such as that ridiculous “fact check” column in Google News. “Fact Check”?! Who do they think they are, the holy order of infallible integrity? Of course not, they’re activists with an agenda, and it’s so predictable which ‘facts’ they want to prove and which to repudiate. I say this as a reply to Seamus’s 5:13, in which he seems to take it for granted that people will trust certain sources of info and distrust others on a certain basis. Sorry, but what if, after a lifetime’s experience of reading the news media, you get to the stage (as I have) where you almost instinctively distrust the sources that Seamus calls trustworthy, and vice-versa? After all, during the 70’s to the 90’s almost all the “respected journalists” in the UK media labelled the Irish Republican movement as terrorists on a daily basis and the worldwide-respected BBC banned the voice of Gerry Adams from our airwaves. All respected media sources, so trustworthy?

  115. IMO Brexi I tend to find the internationally respected news organisations more compelling than some bloke with a glorified blog on the internet posing as a news outlet. As for fact checker I’m not familiar with the one that you speak of but most of the ones I’ve read have given step-by-step reasons and sources for their conclusions.

    Taking your comments above to their logical conclusion you are going to believe what you like as a result of political bias and dismiss anything inconvenient as ‘activists’.

  116. I suppose you’re right Paul, at my age, well you just get to a stage where you sort of “sum up” your store of memories, experiences etc, each one just a single grain of sand but together building a picture, and you kind of decide what you believe and where you stand. Also, recalling youth when I thought I knew it all and that the views of previous generations were all hogwash to be dismissed as out-of-date, that’s a factor too, seeing younger people going through the same thing, convinced that at last, theirs is the generation that will change the world and sweep away the old order. Alas.

  117. It’s been the same since time immemorable, Brexi,.

    To paraphrase Oscar Wilde ‘we’re not young enough to know everything’

  118. Calling someone a liar is always a personal attack, irrespective of the truth of the claim. Let’s get real.

    Truer words were never spoke, also the primary rule of the site…..

  119. Truer words were never spoke, also the primary rule of the site…..

    It’s strange that a ‘primary rule of the site’ (that’s a new one!) would be so flagrantly broken by the site’s ‘manager.’ Perhaps he should ban/suspend himself?

  120. I’m not sure Noel, if someone posts lies, that makes them a liar in my book
    because they are happy with the lies they’ve posted ..
    some are too stoopid to know the difference though !

    Its different is an error is made, an honest mistake with some numbers, or a quote mis-attributed to a person, or an historical date .

  121. You can believe something that someone has posted is is untrue but that does not make the person posting it a liar. For example Peter here is well known for his passionate commitment to AGW . He posts many links in support of his belief in man made climate change and our need to alter industrial behaviours. Patrick and some others here don’t accept that evidence. They don’t believe in AGW. That doesn’t not make Peter a liar, nor does it make his detractors liars. By and large the debates here around climate issues don’t tent to turn into the personal attacks as we have seen on some other issues. It would be good if the same intense but respectful dissent applied to all topics.

  122. “Calling someone a liar is always a personal attack, irrespective of the truth of the claim. Let’s get real.”

    I disagree. It is simply pointing out the facts of the matter. If someone lies calling them a liar is not abusive, simply the facts.

    “After all, during the 70’s to the 90’s almost all the “respected journalists” in the UK media labelled the Irish Republican movement as terrorists on a daily basis and the worldwide-respected BBC banned the voice of Gerry Adams from our airwaves.”

    Well firstly the BBC were ordered by the government to do much of that, in what was an assult on the freedom of the press by the UK government. Secondly, are you saying they weren’t terrorists (certainly under UK law)?

    “All respected media sources, so trustworthy?”

    Are you, for example, saying that the BBC, the Washington Post, the New York Times, respected scientific publications and official data sources should be held in the same esteem as the guy Troll found on twitter who said that a Jew who worked for another Jew was paid by a third Jew to pay blacks to riot so that they could overthrough the government and replace it with a single world wide government dominated by Jews?

    “Truer words were never spoke, also the primary rule of the site…..”

    No the primary rule of the site is that if you disagree with Troll he will try to create a pretext to get rid of you, either by making the place so unpleasant that you’d want to leave or by banning you.

    “You can believe something that someone has posted is is untrue but that does not make the person posting it a liar.”

    But when he just makes stuff up, or brazenly lies about things that have just happened, as Troll does on an almost daily basis, then it is safe enough to call him a liar.

  123. with respect that’s a cop-out colm as you’ve reduced your example to “beliefs”
    that’s not what’s going on here on other subjects
    Opinion is derived from a set of facts, that’s what’s contested – facts

    so for example Brexit has been done, that’s a fact
    the equivalent of what’s going on in USA as regards the election would be like some party or group in the UK still contesting the Brexit.

    Its an opinion that we may re-join at a later stage, but to pretend Brexit can be over-turned by appealing to some courts , is a crock of shit, isn’t it ?

    Those backing an appellant balony for brexit to be overturned are not just mis-informed, they are a bunch of liars
    because its blatantly untrue that Brexit can be cancelled
    Its just passed both Houses and has received royal assent

    same is true in the USA election, its a done deal , 100% guaranteed Biden will be sworn in in a couple weeks. FACT not opinion ..

    what you’re suggesting is people claiming its legit to imagine Brexit can be over-turned by some court case are just giving opinions.

    They’re not, they have no facts or law on their side, they’re pounding the table and spreading lies .. That’s the reality , you just haven’t got it in you to call it what it is

    plus you’re not looking deeper at why they’re spreading lies
    Its about the money , raising cash from gullible twits

    take the blinkers off colm , everyone is saying this, not just me to you ..

  124. what you have to reckon with colm is the unpleasant truth that virtually everything Pat posts is lies, i don’t think its pathological liar, but it might be a congenital

    here is a discussion on the subject and we should discuss this openly , agreed ?
    as its the root of all the problem and disputes on ATW

    get yer gear on colm, this is a bumpy ride

    Nonpathological lying is commonplace and not a sign of any disorder. A person who pathologically lies will lie compulsively and without any clear benefit to themselves.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/pathological-liars#what-is-pathological-lying

    for my monry colm, pvr lies constantly to save face, its a way of dealing with embarrassment , there ya go ? agree with that a chara ?

  125. Kurt and Seamus

    You both adopt exactly the faults that make resolving problems impossible. It’s always someone else behaving badly. It’s always someone else whose views are fake and mendacious and troublesome . ‘We’ are the good truthful guys and are blameless. Nothing will ever get resolved when you adopt an unyielding “ I never have to do anything different , you do “ attitude.

  126. Kurt

    Almost everything you post is lies. See how easy it is to make such sweeping generalisations ?

  127. “You both adopt exactly the faults that make resolving problems impossible.”

    I think appeasing a bully doesn’t resolve the problem, it just kicks the can down the road.

    “It’s always someone else whose views are fake and mendacious and troublesome.”

    Are you suggesting that the arguments I put forward are fake, or in any way dishonest?

  128. lol colm those are ridiculous replies
    you haven’t thought this through
    this might help
    ” Comment is free…but facts are sacred”

    when on the day after 2016 election , it was claimed that the crowd was bigger then Obamas
    Blatant LIE , easily verifiable
    that didn’t stop the liars presenting “alternative facts”
    its been like that for 4 years , you been fast asleep fella

    seamus , colm is not paying attention to the truth wars

  129. No, Seamus, that point was mainly aimed at Kurt. My main argument is about how people state their views. You are the best most informed politically knowledgeable person on this site and I think when you are posting your detailed rebuttals it’s great. It’s the “shitfests” that I just think are so unnecessary and can be handled differently even if someone , yes often Patrick, starts it. You don’t have to respond in the same way.

    To give one example, I share the view that Patrick’s claims of electoral fraud stealing the rightful Trump 2nd term is completely false just as much as others but there is a way of saying it without going down the “ you are a lying sack of shit moron “ route that so many particularly Trump related discussions descend into, and yes I do acknowledge Patrick is often, despite his claims otherwise, the first person to lose his rag. If one person is throwing shit it doesn’t elp when everyone else starts flinging shit around too. Say whatever you want but say it without the childish down in the gutter abuse that in a nutshell is the exasperating point I have been trying to make for weeks and It’s not about allowing Patrick or anyone to “Get away with it” it’s about each person choosing to maintain a certain standard of discourse regardless of what another person is doing. That’s all.

  130. And the standard I am maintaining is that I’m not going to self-censor to appease a small child. If Troll agrees not to be abusive then I will agree not to use his trigger words.

  131. colm, we’re all different, but passion plays its part hugely
    lies need to be destroyed in my book, and whilst anger doesn’t bring about righteousness
    by gollys liars need to be called out
    but you want to shield PVR , take him under your wing, like a baby
    its not how life works
    you might consider one day saying to PVR
    mate just stop lying and the arguments will improve
    but you won’t , so you have to fire somewhere
    that’s when you fire on me, paul, DaveA, seamus, seimi
    because the truth is you’re taking a side, whether you acknowledge it or not

    I think its noble of seamus to declare he won’t use pats trigger words
    Its still laughable that we even have to do this on an adult site
    But its a laudable offer .. one I support and will do my best to join
    just to keep the craic going a bit longer even 😉

    mustn’t upset baby or he will spit out his soother .. that’s where we’re at
    God help us .. lmao

  132. There you go, you’ve just lied there Kurt. Your entire 11:29 comment is a lie. If you are going to claim to be a truth teller, start by not repeating lies about me.

  133. //You can believe something that someone has posted is is untrue but that does not make the person posting it a liar. For example Peter here is well known for his passionate commitment to AGW .//

    That’s such nonsense in relation to the point we’re discussing, Colm, that I sometimes think you really have blinkers on as regards certain commenters and commenters.

    The rest of us are talking about lies, i.e. deliberately asserting things you know not to be true. It’s an objective measure, as the false intention can be easily proven (e.g. through the individual contracting himself, back-peddling, making claims that he knows are false, or simply accepting the opposite of what he claimed is true and then a few days down the road reverting to the original untruthful claim.) This happens here practically every day; everyone sees it except you.
    (I can give plenty of examples, but don’t want to open old wounds or return to old squabbles. But in a personal mail, if you wish.)

    //“Calling someone a liar …. is simply pointing out the facts of the matter. If someone lies, calling them a liar is not abusive, simply the facts.//

    It’s still a personal attack. You didn’t remark on my example of the plain girl at the party. I don’t doubt for a second that if the unlucky girl was the sister of any of us and someone called her ugly in public, we would consider her insulted and wouldn’t instead just muse about someone “merely stating the facts”. The truth or otherwise has nothing to do with an insult. An insult depends only on the mindset of the person making it, not on the factual circumstances.

    Also, if the individual in question constantly tells obvious lies, which you claim, then why the need to constantly call him a liar? You don’t repeatedly call someone a conservative or an Englishman if he so obviously is that.

    Instead, a person is called a liar to show him up, to refute his claim and to stop him repeating it – so to claim calling him a liar is simply stating the facts is absurd. The charge is always used as a personal rhetorical challenge or attack
    (and again, irrespective of whether or not it’s justified, which of course in the present case it is.)

    My position is that it’s so constant and so obvious in the case in question that there’s no point in naming it or engaging with it, especially as any such engagement has been shown time and again to have absolutely no positive effect.

  134. Noel

    Of course people lie. I am not claiming otherwise. Sometimes people post bullshit as a wind up to stir argument and they know they are doing it. My argument is mainly about two things. The ways to express rejection of someone’s genuinely posted ‘evidence’ and how to respond to abusive insults. I can agree with you about simply not engaging with debates or claims or individuals that are ‘beyond the pale’ but I accept that some people don’t want to do that, they do want to debate with the person and all I am saying is , if you do then do so without sinking into the gutter.

    My whole point isn’t about the veracity of whatever anyone is saying , it’s about personal behaviour . Call out bullshit yes, but without the need for moronic language. It’s not about self censorship as Seamus claims, it’s about self restraint.

  135. //Of course people lie. I am not claiming otherwise.//

    Eh? But you’ve said at least twice that nobody deliberately lies on this site.

  136. Colm

    You present part of what the problem is here. You come from the view that no-one is perfect, we are all human and therefore fallible or likely to do wrong. This of course is perfectly accurate and true. However, as Seamus asks above – are you then inferring that what others post here is purposely untrue? I don’t mean everything, because I think kurt may be going too far to suggest that Troll lies all or most of the time. I mean – do you think anyone else tells deliberate lies here, usually in order to cover up mistakes or simple errors? Because that is what Troll does.
    I do not mean when he is merely incorrect, like when he got the date of Bloody Sunday wrong by a margin of ten years – that is human fallibility, and we are all guilty/susceptible of/to it. Nor do I mean his summary of what happened on that day, ie IRA supporters started a riot with British soldiers. This is also untrue/incorrect, but I don’t believe Troll was attempting to purposely deceive anyone with an untruth here – it was merely his version of events based on the narrative he had been given.
    However, when he banned me, he gave multiple, very different reasons for doing so. He changed his story several times. He even changed what he did, from calling it a ban for the first four days, to calling it a suspension. He posted private emails sent between the two of us, without my permission, but only certain emails, in order to give the impression that I had contacted him, rather than the other way around.

    This was all done with the intent to deceive people, to cover the truth of what happened. I agree with a theory of kurt’s, that he did all of this to cover embarrassment. When he initially banned me, he mistook me for Seamus and, rather than admit his mistake, he instead doubled down on it, to the point where he is now hopelessly lost in the lie, and has resorted to pretending the events never happened in the first place. If this is the case, then he has a serious problem.
    And I know that people are pissed off with hearing about my being banned. In fact, the suggestion has been made – possibly by yourself? – that it not be mentioned again. I’m sorry, but it is an unresolved issue, which involved a lot of dishonesty on the part of the management of ATW, and I can’t let it go. It is an open wound, and every time Troll lies about it, he tears the scab off it again. So, when it is raised again – which it will be – I will understand your collective groans, but I ask you to understand my reason for doing so.
    Part of the problem here, I believe, is not that a few of us are calling him a liar when he ‘practices to deceive’, but that not enough people call him out when he behaves badly or in a destructive or dishonest manner. As ‘manager’ of the site, he should be above behaviour like that. as David was when he was around more. Troll is not only at the centre of a lot of the fights here – he is very often the instigator – and that isn’t good enough for the person apparently given responsibility for the sight.
    This lack of maturity was particularly apparent the other day, when he basically said that it wouldn’t matter if all the regulars here were to leave, because eventually new regulars would materialise. That was a childish, petulant statement to make, that was the result of his short temper. It displayed a complete lack of respect for every person who takes the time to comment here. The regulars are the lifeblood of the site, and without them, ATW would die. Again, this is very poor behaviour from the person employed to police and, presumably, promote ATW.

    I personally don’t recall anyone calling him a “lying sack of shit moron” for his beliefs regarding Biden’s election victory, by the way. I do recall him being called various names around that theme because he has told outright lies, most of them around mine and Seamus’ bannings.

    If Troll doesn’t want to be called a liar, then Seamus came up with a fiendishly clever, yet simple, solution – don’t tell lies.
    Likewise, if Troll wishes to be treated with respect, the solution is equally as simple and devilish in its cleverness – show respect.

  137. My position is that it’s so constant and so obvious in the case in question that there’s no point in naming it or engaging with it, especially as any such engagement has been shown time and again to have absolutely no positive effect.

    Noel

    that’s a perfect example of the sniping from the sidelines and indirect engagement mentioned by myself and Paul. You might believe that this cleverly conceals the identity of the recipient, but you know that you’re talking about Troll, we know you’re talking about Troll – even Troll might figure out that you’re talking about Troll!

    So if Troll responds by calling you names or whatever, don’t act all surprised! 🙂

  138. Seimi

    A lot of what you say is correct and yes you are right , the incident where Patrick banned you did pan out entirely as you claimed. Patrick does have a big flaw in that he loses his rag , behaves in an entirely unjustified manner and then does not have the courage to admit he has done so. Contrary to the claims of Kurt, Noel and others I don’t act as Patrick’s defender I just genuinely believe shouting abuse back at him doesn’t work. There are other ways to skin a cat.

    There is no doubt Seimi you ‘won’ thee battle for public opinion with Patrick over your banning. Nobody else here has supported what he did but you don’t seem able to accept that and won’t be satisfied until Patrick accepts a mea culpa himself which I just don’t think will happen. If however you wish to spend eternity in that fruitful search I can’t stop you.

    We do all engage in different ways. Allan for example posts the most ridiculous claims of anyone here but he never sinks to foul language ranting . Now some people will think Allan is worse because of the substance of what he writes and to hell with his politeness, but I am not at all bothered by his beliefs absurd and often nasty as they are. To me personally I just don’t like the hateful emotive personally abusive stuff that we often see, whereas I know some others are fine with that, they think it is healthy and open.

    I guess in the end there are ways of commenting that bothers some and doesn’t bother others. Perhaps we are destined never to all be on the same page.

  139. colm’s 11:42 shows he’s all over the place

    That one Noel – establishing objectivity , not subjectivity , serves us all well

    I think colm confuses subjectivity and objectivity

    objective statements are factual , or attempts to be factual
    and can be disproved or proven, there’s the rub ( if people are being honest )
    one will concede the point, and give way
    subjective comments are personal, interpretive, opinion on said facts

    this is spot on N

    “The rest of us are talking about lies, i.e. deliberately asserting things you know not to be true. It’s an objective measure, as the false intention can be easily proven (e.g. through the individual contracting himself, back-peddling, making claims that he knows are false, or simply accepting the opposite of what he claimed is true and then a few days down the road reverting to the original untruthful claim.) This happens here practically every day; everyone sees it except you.

  140. Colm

    I know you didn’t mean it in that way, but ‘winning’ anything was never my intention.

    I know that it is unlikely that Troll will ever admit fully to what he did, and that trying to force him to do it is pointless. However, allowing him to double down and continue to lie about what transpired is simply not a viable option.

    The issue with Allan is different. He appears to genuinely believe what he writes, and will provide links to sites which he believes back up his claims. He doesn’t intentionally lie to cover up his mistakes. And, although he is usually quite polite in his comments, I have seen him lose it and resort to profanity himself.

    If your concern with debate here is simply the language used, then I can only suggest that you pull on your big girl pants and deal with it, because I can’t see that changing anytime soon 🙂

  141. seimi
    with colm he lives in a world of moral equivalence, all sides as bad as each other
    its false and hopeless, you find this with liberal democrat supporters

    funny thing is the MP’s are always caught doing pervy things when they face scandals
    its like the guilt they feel for not being able to sub-divide and take moral positions
    haunts them and they can only find release in sexual deviancy

    not accusing colm of that so everyone relax ..

  142. This lack of maturity was particularly apparent the other day, when he basically said that it wouldn’t matter if all the regulars here were to leave, because eventually new regulars would materialise. That was a childish, petulant statement to make, that was the result of his short temper. It displayed a complete lack of respect for every person who takes the time to comment here. The regulars are the lifeblood of the site, and without them, ATW would die. Again, this is very poor behaviour from the person employed to police and, presumably, promote ATW

    I’m 100% in agreement. That particular comment displayed a narcissistic ‘let the whole place go to hell’ nihilism.

  143. so this is going to continue……. OK

    First things First.

    “Truer words were never spoke, also the primary rule of the site…..”

    No the primary rule of the site is that if you disagree with Troll he will try to create a pretext to get rid of you, either by making the place so unpleasant that you’d want to leave or by banning you.

    I don’t need a “pretext” if I want you off the site you’re off the site period and I need no reason because I don’t have to justify it to anyone.

    No one has made this site more unpleasant than you and your followers….. you’ve dragged this argument out for over a month and you’ve spent everyday doing anything you and your cohorts can to harass the site manager and anyone who dares to talk to him.

  144. You do need a pretext due to your regularly repeated lie of supporting free speech. You can ban any of us any time you want. That is true. But it would prove beyond any doubt that your support for free speech is a lie. So you invent reasons to do it.

  145. Seimi

    Just a point about Allan. Yes on the surface it may well be that he believes everything he writes However, given that as far as I know, nobody here has ever met him it’s also entirely possible that he is a ‘character’ invented and continued flawlessly by someone as an experiment to see how others react to such eccentric views. That’s the beauty of online intercourse. Are we really the men behind our tools ? 😇

  146. Are you, for example, saying that the BBC, the Washington Post, the New York Times, respected scientific publications and official data sources should be held in the same esteem as the guy Troll found on twitter who said that a Jew who worked for another Jew was paid by a third Jew to pay blacks to riot so that they could overthrough the government and replace it with a single world wide government dominated by Jews?

    Who the hell made you God of what is legitimate science and what news sources are legitimate?

    Are you the minister of TRUTH and the ONLY truth that anyone can have is Seamus’s Truth or you’re a Liar?

    Are you an Owner of the Site?

    Are you involved in running the site?

    If the site is sued or fined is your name on the list of people who will have to pay and be held responsible?

    Are you anything on this site other than a Guest?

  147. “Who the hell made you God of what is legitimate science and what news sources are legitimate?”

    No one. I’m responsible for what I write, just as you are responsible for what you write. And everyone else can then be the judge as to which they take more seriously. Sober research or anti-semitic conspiracy theories?

  148. ‘followers’, ‘cohorts’

    Somebody has been spending too much time in a cult.

    I didn’t know I was a cohort of yours, Seamus.

    Colm

    That’s true. As you know, I was in Aberdeen, and offered to meet him, but Allan was suddenly struck down by a bad tummy. Perhaps he is a ‘construct’
    However, until proven otherwise, we must assume he is real, and that he believes what he writes.

  149. ‘followers’, ‘cohorts’

    Somebody has been spending too much time in a cult.

    I didn’t know I was a cohort of yours, Seamus.

    Colm

    That’s true. As you know, I was in Aberdeen, and offered to meet him, but Allan was suddenly struck down by a bad tummy. Perhaps he is a ‘construct’
    However, until proven otherwise, we must assume he is real, and that he believes what he writes.

  150. Apparently so. I’m apparently a god of legitimate science, and a minister of truth. So of all the cults to be in this one would not be too bad.

  151. OK and I know I am going to be making a rod for my own back here, but I will defend Patrick on one point. He has despite his angry ranting temperament done a good job in genuinely maintaining the free speech ethos of this site. Many commenting sites ban users and censor comments routinely. It is very rare for that to happen here. I think the number of commenters banned or suspended here in almost twenty years can be counted on one hand which is remarkable. Yes there is the occasional genuinely unjustified ban, like Seimi’s which causes such a furore and backfires rightfully so, but whatever personal views people have about Patrick’s personality, I think it should be acknowledged he is a dog who barks a lot but rarely bites.

    Yes I know, cue the “Colm is licking Patrick’s ass again “ comments , but I stand by what I say. 😉

  152. Colm

    That was David’s doing, not Troll’s. His record since announcing that he is ‘site manager’ is two completely unjustified bans. That’s pretty shite, by anyone’s standards.

  153. com if certain posters leveled up , it’d be a far better site
    and by level up it obvious what that means ,
    post stuff that has a reasonable chance of being believed , taken seriously
    because its credible, comes from a credible source ..
    That how we win the disinformation war
    twitter is doing a good job by highlight posts which are disputed
    are you aware of that ?

  154. Troll , you’d be doing the whole site a huge favour by separating your city troll twitter and ATW .. resist the temptation just to throw it all over here.
    Its for a different audience, and you know that
    keep here for a worthy news items and a post criticizing or approving of the gov’t etc
    that’s the future for ATW

  155. if you want peace Troll , that’s one way of making the effort isn’t it
    keep them separate, as its just flaming and trolling isn’t it mixing the two

  156. //that’s a perfect example of the sniping from the sidelines and indirect engagement mentioned by myself and Paul. //

    Yes, I reckoned neither of you had anything more substantial to back up that nebulous “indirect engagement” you keep mentioning.

    Because what you say is instead a perfect example of how you, Seimi, can get things clearly written so completely wrong.
    There is absolutely no way that what I said and what you quoted can be honestly considered “engaging” with the person in question, either directly or indirectly.

    It also wasn’t meant to be any clever anything nor a snipe at anyone, as you claim. I was talking to Seamus and trying to put forward a view, a way of dealing with lies, in the hope he’d perhaps consider it, and this site would get a much needed break from these rows. How this could be construed as me getting a dig at someone, especially in the context of this thread, is beyond me.

    I didn’t mention names simply because I don’t wish to pour more fuel on this silly fire. For no other reason.

    You are talking nonsense here, Seimi, and I can only presume you are too fired up over this issue to read clearly.

    But I presume you have, with Paul, at least abandoned the “direct engagement” line.

    So now, any other perfect examples of “indirect engagement”, anyone?

    Look, I’ll even consider imperfect examples.

  157. Yes, I reckoned neither of you had anything more substantial to back up that nebulous “indirect engagement” you keep mentioning

    I don’t ‘keep mentioning’ it. I’ve mentioned it once and told you that I was struck by seeing it but rather than painstakingly try searching for it I’ll gladly withdraw it if it makes you happier as it means little to me in the context of indirect engagement while pontificating to be the more deceitful and craven.

    You seem to be concentrating on the former point while absolutely ignoring the latter.

    I don’t wish to pour more fuel on this silly fire. For no other reason

    It was you that lit ‘this silly fire’

  158. Paul asserting his “moral authority” over another commenters opinions…..

    Noel is one of you yet how dare he not think the same exact thoughts….. shame on you Noel…

    they’re gonna through you out of the club if you don’t watch yourself.

  159. I think you two (Noel and Paul) are dancing around a pinhead meaning of what is ‘engagement’.

  160. //I don’t ‘keep mentioning’ (indirect engagement). I’ve mentioned it once …//

    Come on, Paul, you’ve mentioned this imagined engagement many times, while of course never offering an example. I can dig up a few examples to prove it, if you still deny it.

    //it means little to me in the context of indirect engagement while pontificating to be the more deceitful and craven.//

    Is that yet another mention? 🙂

    //while absolutely ignoring the latter. //

    Seriously, Paul, I didn’t understand the bit you’re referring to here (I think). Please rephrase it.

    //It was you that lit ‘this silly fire’//

    Eh??? I wasn’t talking about our row, but speaking about (obviously, I would have thought) the never-ending row, the one over Semi being banned and the aftermath. Maybe I should have said “conflagration”

  161. Come on, Paul, you’ve mentioned this imagined engagement many times

    Direct engagement? I don’t think I have.

    Is that yet another mention?

    No, it’s a reference to the spineless habit of indirect engagement while pontificating on direct engagement by others.

    Seriously, Paul, I didn’t understand the bit you’re referring to here

    I was referring to a sentence in a comment I was mentioned in. I’ve it wasn’t a reference to me then fair enough.

    I wasn’t talking about our row

    See comment above.

    Paul asserting his “moral authority” over another commenters opinions…..

    I told you I don’t have any authority, moral or otherwise, to assert over anything. I don’t care who engages with whom and what’s more it’s none of my business. Why do you attempt to insist to the contrary?

    Anyhow, I’m away out. I’ll return to this tomorrow if need be.

  162. Let’s talk about Brexit, Trump, Global warming, or even the best Britney songs tomorrow please ? 😉

  163. //Direct engagement? I don’t think I have.//

    OK, Paul, now I know you’re deliberately lying. You know that’s not what I was referring to. Just look at your 4:25

    If you’ve so examples, fair enough, we can move on.

    Sorry, for bothering the rest of you with this, but I don’t like people claiming I said or did things that I didn’t.

    Now let’s hope we can end this …

  164. Noel

    I didn’t say anywhere that you were ‘getting a dig’ at anyone. I said that you were talking about Troll in your comment, and that this was a perfect example of the sniping from sidelines that I mentioned before, and I also used the term ‘indirect engagement’ which Paul used. I didn’t actually mention you ‘engaging’ with anyone, I merely suggested that it was so obvious who you were referring to, that it should come as no surprise if that person had a go at you. Are you sure it’s me who has the difficulty comprehending the written word here? Perhaps it’s your own apparent bad mood that is causing the difficulty? Calm down, dear 😊
    You appear now also to be stating that you weren’t referring to Troll in your comment. Is that correct? Because in all your other comments where you have said that you no longer engage directly with Troll, you have used very similar language.
    I’m happy to be corrected 😊

  165. OK, Paul, now I know you’re deliberately lying. You know that’s not what I was referring to. Just look at your 4:25

    Ach Noel, that’s it? I expected something of more substance than calling me a liar from a lad of good Ulster stock. As to your direct engagement, if it makes you feel better I’ll absolutely withdraw the comment, the spineless indirect engaging non engagement is the main matter anyway.

    As for my deliberate lying, apologies but gratuitous mild insult doesn’t have the effect on me that it does on some others. I’ll leave the question of my integrity to the ATW jury.

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