46 2 mins 14 yrs

I note that the Irish Republican obsession with "collusion" continues today at a conference taken place in Dublin bringing together many different families who all believe their relatives or friends were murdered by British state forces in collusion with loyalists.

From my perspective, this is as credible as a UFO convention, or perhaps an "Elvis is still alive" gathering. You can be sure that it will get a sympathetic media hearing though. After all, a chance to blacken the Brits is a chance not to be ignored!

The message Irish Republicans need to comprehend is that had they not chosen to support a genocidal terrorist campaign against those of us who live on the same island as them, and had their rotten Government not aided the setting up of the Provisional IRA as well as providing sanctuary for it’s butchers, then they would have no grievance, real or imaginary. If they want to find where collusion starts – look in a mirror.

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46 thoughts on “THE ORIGINS OF COLLUSION….

  1. David,

    I thought that you, above all others, would have recognised that not only is Elvis alive, he is ‘still in the building’!

  2. Collusion, IF and when it happened, was wrong.
    Things like this show that "The Peace Process" is a sham, that in shinner eyes there IS a hierarchy of victims – and that they have no intention, for all the platitudes, of "moving on".

    Still, it isn’t wasted.

    It reminds us that we need the truth behind Adams role in La Mon and the murder of Jean McConville, McGuinness role in Claudy and the murder of frank Hegarty, the Enniskillen bomb and all the other terrorist atrocities carried out by those involved in the "peace process". OTRs ? Forget about them getting an amnesty – the shinners keep those of us not directly bereaved remembering what they did.

    So the next time a greener yaps "time to move on" tell
    him "after you".

  3. Speaking of UFO sighting these had been almost killed off by the internet. But they are starting to make a bit of a comeback.

    I wonder if alien invasion will be the next big scare when Global Warming proves to be part of a natural cycle.

  4. Mad,

    So its a case of, we wont admit to doing wrong until ye admit to your wrong doing. Weird.

    >>Collusion, IF and when it happened, was wrong. <<

    Whos bonfides would you accept with regards to a report into collusion. Any report that comes out is immediately knocked up as being a sop to nationalism or the author is attacked or what ever excuse. Its strange that both yourself madradin, Daivd and Andrew have all previously said that their probably were bad apples in the RUC, but yet, when a report concludes this, ye attack it as fiction.

    >>and had their rotten Government not aided the setting up of the Provisional IRA<<

    Im going to follow unionist logic on this one david. Please provide the evidence, otherwise its purely fantasy… isnt this the response given to nationalists when they claim collusions…works both ways then surely doesnt it!!!

  5. >>support a genocidal terrorist campaign against those of us who live on the same island as them, and had their rotten Government not aided the setting up of the Provisional IRA<<

    So your "message" to Republicans is based firstly on a piece of ridiculous hype and secondly on a complete lie.

    It accordingly won’t get very far.

  6. <Q>So its a case of, we wont admit to doing wrong until ye admit to your wrong doing. </Q>

    I don’t know where you get THAT from Kloot – I had no part in any collusion. We KNOW that the IRA, UDA and UVF did wrong.

    You people in the ROI cannot have it both ways – tell my community it’s time to move on and forget the terrible things done to us – yet keep dredging up the past. Your hypocrisy over this makes a lie of the claim that you’ll welcome my community and treat us as equals and long lost brothers.

    You (pl) want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. You’ll wring your hands about those who suffered – and yet take Pride in the IRA Myth of the Brave Oirish heroes. You don’t want to admit that the British BEAT the IRA. You still have sneaking sympathy for the bastards. Your Governments sheltered them – and only ever acted against them when they were a direct threat to your own – despite the claims that we in NI were your own – or when you were forced by or bribed to by the British Government.

    By all means let’s clean up all the wrong-doing.
    Let’s have YOUR Government tell the truth about it’s part in all of this. Let’s have the RC Church tell all about it’s role.

  7. Kloot,

    No, perhaps you get me wrong. What I am saying is that of course there will have been things done that should NOT have happened, and which to any civilised person are unacceptable. The guilty deserve prosecution. I hope that is unambiguous enough.

    BUT, and here’s the sting, it was the PIRA that kicked off the terror campaign and it was the Irish Government which both funded the establishment of PIRA and which provided sanctuary. It was republicans that supported the terror campaign. They cannot be absolved of their complicity and, if you like, their central collusion. Sorry if you think I am harsh on this but I must speak as I see it.

  8. The difference, MR, is that people elect governments to represent them and act in their name.
    The IRA was never elected by the Irish people.
    The British Govt was elected by the British people.

  9. Cunningham – fantasy time from you – there is NO evidence of any Government involvement in Collusion.
    That’s what galls me – apologists and sympathisers for the IRA trying to take a few instances of Collusion and inventing the Lie that the British Government were involved. It’s as ridiculous as claiming that because a Few GAA men were terrorists the whole GAA movement was Terrorist.

    IF the Government had been involved there wouldn’t have been many IRA men- including Adams – alive today. After all they had agents feeding them info – Scap, Donaldson and probably even McGuinness.

    There is One "Collusion" rumour I’d love to see cleared up – did Adams set up Lynagh at Loughgall ?
    It wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

  10. >>I don’t know where you get THAT from Kloot – I had no part in any collusion. We KNOW that the IRA, UDA and UVF did wrong. <<

    Sorry Mad, of course I wasnt addressing you personally and nor was I addressing this at the absolute vast majority of the Unionist community who did no wrong… I phrased this abit wrong I suppose. What I meant is that when reports like O Loans come out the automatic response from a lot of those in the Unionist community is for nationalists to look into their own first… same as you have pointed out a number of times. Investigations into corruption and collusion should take place regardless of what the other community are engaged in and should not be taken as concessions to the other community. the better community will be the one that faces up to those within it who broke the law. And that applies to nationalists as well.

    >>You people in the ROI cannot have it both ways – tell my community it’s time to move on and forget the terrible things done to us – yet keep dredging up the past.<<

    I can agree on that. I dont in any way want the crimes committed on the communities in NI to be forgotten. Quite the opposite. What I would like to see is for both communities to be able to move on.

    However, if there were people still in power in the Irish government who gave support to the PIRA, id personally like to see them hung up to dry. If there were Gardai also doing the same, again they should be prosecuted and indeed there is an on going investigation into two Gardai over such allegations.
    Would you not also hold the same for NI.. Maybe its easier for me to make calls with regards to the ROI, as no one stands to gain except my own society from these investigations, whereas its believed in NI that a similar investigation would be giving a gift to republicans

    >>The guilty deserve prosecution. I hope that is unambiguous enough.<<

    Thats fine David. But, how do you suggest this be investigated. You hardly expect the police to investigate themselves do you ?

    >>it was the PIRA that kicked off the terror campaign and it was the Irish Government which both funded the establishment of PIRA and which provided sanctuary.<<

    David, again, I will accept that members of the Irish government aided the PIRA. It was not however government policy to aid the PIRA. You are doing exactly what you would accuse nationalists of doing when they make comments about all RUC being bad because a few were. Think about the accusation you are making, that it was Irish government policy to support an illegal organisation when:

    1) the PIRA had no problem murdering the security forces of the irish state

    2) the PIRA did not recognise the existence of the Irish state and actively sought to subvert

    3) the government was spending a foturne trying to crack down on.

    4) the government was introducing some of the most draconian legislation to try subvert them.

    Think again about your comments re the Irish givernment, do you see what im getting at.

  11. MR

    "There is One "Collusion" rumour I’d love to see cleared up – did Adams set up Lynagh at Loughgall ?"

    As I take it you are not a family member can you then understand why people who have had their family members murdered would want to see their cases cleared up and how they are motivated by more than mere curiosity.

    The collusion issue will be around for decades to come and anybody who has anything to hide should be uncomfortable. The truth will come out in the end.

  12. <Q>It was not however government policy to aid the PIRA</Q>

    Hmmm – it might be more accurate to state that it was never openly declared as policy Kloot.

    It’s my understanding that it was complex – there were electoral considerations and there was the "reds under the bed" factor that was scaring the pants off both the establishment and the Church at the time – which is why they were happy to give help to PIRA in order to sink "the Godless Marxists" of the OIRA. There was a real paranoia about "reds" in the 60s. You had to be there. It was every bit as strong as the current fears about "Jihadists".

  13. >>I take your points and concur it is wrong to spread blame on everyone!<<

    I understand David that your headings might sometimes be worded to provoke reaction, isnt that what a good blog is all about. 🙂

  14. Henry – be honest with me – why should one set of family members be entitled to truth and justice and yet people like Aileen are not? Easy for Adams and McGuinness to clear Enniskillen up. Why are the McConville Family not entitled to know the truth ? Easy for Adams and McGuinness to clear that one up.

    WHY should only Green Victims be entitled to truth and Justice Henry?

  15. >>t might be more accurate to state that it was never openly declared as policy Kloot. <<

    Hard one to prove though I suppose. Have most of the government documents from the time being revealed yet? Most of them should have under the 30 year rule unless very sensitive.

    The ‘red’ aspect is an interesting angle. Yes, all western governments went to extremes to subvert the ‘red’ threat. Its a terrible thing to thing that this would have gone to the extent of supporting a terroist organisation clearly intent on being more active then the OIRA.

  16. Kloot – Were you around in those days ? I’m in my 50s.
    The Cold war was still very much alive and kicking.

  17. >>WHY should only Green Victims be entitled to truth and Justice Henry?<<

    Simple answer is that they shouldnt. Victims deserve answers to their questions. I suppose its just that its easier to root out those in the security forces that colluded with terrorists and to get answers, then it is to get answers from the terrorists

  18. >>Kloot – Were you around in those days ? I’m in my 50s.<<

    I wasnt even a twinkle in my fathers eye 🙂

    No, all I can gather is from what ive read. Im sure that living though those times has given you a living perspecitive on it.

    Off topic, but a Documentary has just started on the History channel about LT Col Blair ‘Paddy’ Mayne, an SAS expert from Ards during WWII.

  19. My recommendation as a starting point to understand the NI I remember – "Straight Left" by the Late Paddy Devlin.

  20. Cheers Madradin. Id spotted that book before xmas in my local book shop. Will definitely give it a read.

  21. MR

    Nobody disputes that the IRA killed Jean McConville and planted the Enniskillen bomb. There is no allegation of involvement from either state or anybody else.

    There is no such clarity about the Dublin/Monaghan bomb and no such clarity about the murder of Pat Finucane.

    It is clear enough that elements within the British forces were involved but we don’t know if they were directed politically.

    We don’t know if the British state was committing murder in Ireland or had lost control of its forces here.

    Either way it is an appalling vista.

  22. Henry – you avoid my questions.

    I’ll repeat – Why should one set of family members be entitled to truth and justice and yet people like Aileen are not? Easy for Adams and McGuinness to clear Enniskillen up. Why are the McConville Family not entitled to know the truth ? Easy for Adams and McGuinness to clear that one up.

    WHY should only Green Victims be entitled to truth and Justice Henry?

  23. MR

    Same question, same answer.

    It is of course typical. Where is your campaign? What are the questions and what are you doing about it.

    Unionists were looking for an enquiry into the Claudy bomb until Sinn Fein agreed with them whereupon they simply dropped the subject.

    The only reason you introduce other victims is not because you want the truth for them because if you did you would be doing something about it.

    It is simply whataboutary aimed at attacking the families who are actually looking for justice.

    Point me to the campaign for the truth about Enniskillen. Post the link and I’ll go and sign the petition. Or at least tell me what you have done about it since the last time we had this conversation.

  24. "The only reason you introduce other victims is not because you want the truth for them because if you did you would be doing something about it."

    good point Henry and proven.

    Kloot though wins the thread prize with:

    "the better community will be the one that faces up to those within it who broke the law. And that applies to nationalists as well. "

    MR is forever telling us his side of the community is better than the other, and clearly that narrative underpins much of what DV and AMC write.

    However these collusion deniers prove that they are not better at all. If anything, worse for the reason and marvellous logic Kloot has provided.

  25. <<The message Irish Republicans need to comprehend is that had they not chosen to support a genocidal terrorist campaign against those of us who live on the same island as them, and had their rotten Government not aided the setting up of the Provisional IRA as well as providing sanctuary for it’s butchers, then they would have no grievance, real or imaginary>>

    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/ulster/article2178331.ece

    David I find your quote very distasteful in terms of the cold reality of collusion. Above is an article which lists the victims of ‘informer number 1’ none of which could be deemed as having:

    "chosen to support a genocidal terrorist campaign against those of us who live on the same island as them"

    ALL these victims should be remembered and justice should be done in their names, not just in the names of ‘green’ victims as some people have suggested is the case with Republicans.

    The IRA were responsible for some horrific atrocities but to suggest that they were responsible for collusion,which your above quote suggests to me, is simply untrue and detracts from your normally rational debate.

  26. MR:
    >>which is why (the Irish government was) happy to give help to PIRA…<<

    A lie. It never did.

    >>… in order to sink "the Godless Marxists" of the OIRA.<<

    LOL. That old hysterical Sticky chestnut!
    A total figment of paranoid and self-obsessed imaginations.

    >>trying to take a few instances of Collusion and inventing the Lie that the British Government were involved<<

    Apart from the fact that agents of the British government were most certainly guilty of collusion and abetting murder, the Government itself is guilty of preventing the truth emerging both with regard to the Pat Finucane murder and – more ominously – the Dublin/Monaghan bombings.
    You expect a band of terrorist "cretins" to have a higher moral standard than your own Government? Interesting.

    David,

    >>it was the PIRA that kicked off the terror campaign and it was the Irish Government which both funded the establishment of PIRA… <<

    The first bit is wrong and the second a lie (or vice versa?)

  27. Paul,

    I am not saying that all (or any) victims of alleged collusion deserved what they got. Far from it. I am saying that any group of people who supported terrorism have big questions to ask themselves.

  28. By the way, my opinion is that all sides should disclose all actions they and their helpers carried out during the troubles – it would no doubt cause some very red faces among SF politicans (active) and former British Government politicians and civil servants (mostly retired) – but that none of them ever will.

  29. Cunningham – it must be great fun for you and those like you such as Henry who didn’t live through it to indulge your anglophobia in a feast of Onanism.

    Of course the ultimate irony is that having killed so many, 30 years on Adams and the Rest of PIRA are now taking the same path as OIRA – left of centre, secular and Stages.

    Henry – we saw what happened to those asking questions when they went to Dublin.

    Adams and McGuinness could give the relatives of Claugy, La Mon, Jean mcConville and Enniskillen Truth and Justice – why won’t they? When asked awkward questions they bleat "we suffered too, time to move on". So, why isn’t it time for everybody to move on?
    Why is there a hierarchy of victims, with only Green victims claiming to have been killed by orange entitles to pursue their case?

  30. >>the ultimate irony is that having killed so many, 30 years on Adams and the Rest of PIRA are now taking the same path as OIRA<<

    I agree that the IRA was BY FAR the worst bunch of killers in the Troubles – both from the point of view of numbers and sheer brutality – and that, from today’s perspective, their entire campaign was for absolutely nothing; indeed it has made the goal of a united Ireland practically impossible to achieve in the near future.

  31. MR

    "Why is there a hierarchy of victims, with only Green victims claiming to have been killed by orange entitles to pursue their case?"

    Anybody is entitled to take a case or start a campaign. What’s stopping them? nothing stopped Raymond McCord.

  32. <<I am not saying that all (or any) victims of alleged collusion deserved what they got. Far from it. I am saying that any group of people who supported terrorism have big questions to ask themselves>>

    Point taken David thank you for the clarification.

    In the context of the second setence of your paragraph would you consider this applicable to high ranking members of the British Army such as Colonel Gorden Kerr who ran Brian Nelson and, by extension, to the Ministery of Defence who funded Nelson?.

  33. "My recommendation as a starting point to understand the NI I remember – "Straight Left" by the Late Paddy Devlin." – MR

    You’re always peddling that MR! I actually read it on your recommendation – a good read.

  34. It’s most interesting aspect for me was that it was a fascinating look at life under Unionism before the Troubles began Julius.

  35. I agree. That was interesting and not something I had read much about before, at least in the personal way he wrote it. I thought his reflections on John Hume were interesting, not quite the saint he was made out to be!:)

  36. Not a Hume Fan. In fact I detest the man. Although I didn’t agree with everything they did and said, Fitt, Currie and Devlin were decent and sensible men who put country and party first, in that order. Hume always struck me as looking after number one.

  37. Yes and he seemed to be something of a dictator when it came to leading the party! I didn’t agree with all the other three did or said either (probably for different reasons than yourself) but they were undoubtedly decent and well intentioned.

  38. Fitt, Currie and Devlin, despite their obvious virtues didn’t have a clue about how to end the Troubles, and couldn’t have, not least as they were guided primarily by wishful thinking rather than a recognition of the essential realities of NI. Their efforts invariably ended in political failure, and in some cases lost deposits.

    It’s strange that Hume, who effectively committed political hara-kiri for the sake of peace, is no being called self-seeking.

  39. The message Irish Republicans need to comprehend is that had they not chosen to support a terrorist campaign against those of who live on the same island as them, and had the rotten Government not aided the setting up of the Ruc death squads as well as providing sanctuary for it’s butchers, then they would have no grievance, real or imaginary. If they had not chosen to take up arms and chosen to fight the outrageous circumstances then the collusion would have continued ad infinitum and the light of truth never shone upon it

  40. Cunningham,
    As far as I know Devlin lost his deposit, so what, don’t all political careers end in failure?

    Hume betrayed the leftist principles the party was founded upon and ran the party like a dictatorship, not consulting other senior members about important strategic and policy decisions.

    "committed political hara-kiri for the sake of peace"

    I think that is just wrong.

  41. Look, as laudable as the motives of Fitt and Co. were (and they were as laudable as they come), there was just never any chance that worker solidarity across the divide, ultimately leading to political reconciliation, was ever going to work. It had been tried countless times and always with only meagre and fleeting success.
    The political structures of NI prevented it; the trap had been just too cunningly laid.

    What was needed was a change in those political structures, change from the top down. Maybe I was a bit too melodramatic about Hume’s hara-kiri, but in hindsight at least it is quite clear that by bringing SF in from the cold for the sake of peace, he allowed it eat into lower-middle class Nationalist support for his own party, and quickly undermined its status as the voice of NI Nationalism. SF was seen by the Nationalist electorate as the party effecting change, Hume was suddenly yesterday’s man.
    However, I’m sure he considers it a price well paid.

  42. I agree Julius. The SDLP was the inheritor of the NILP secular tradition – and Hume destroyed that for a bourgeois Social Democratic Party. He hogged the limelight, wrong-footed rivals, ill health and ill health alone forced him out of politics and he had his sights on glory ( Nobel) for John Hume. Hume certainly didn’t "end" the troubles. He played a minor part – the troubles ended because the IRA could not beat the British Army. A monstrous ego.

  43. I see another of the UDA men charged with involvement in Pat Finucane’s murder has been found hanged.

  44. Good points Cunningham… however I disagree that John Hume somehow knew in advance that SF would pass the SDLP out electorally and decided it was a price worth paying for peace. I can’t think of any politician anywhere that would do that! Personally, I doubt he saw it coming…

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