162 2 mins 9 yrs

My addictions are legion, a source of legendary consternation among my friends and family. My most toxic fixation at the moment are news feeds, a dicey brew considering the divisive political nature of my country.

Running across streams of stories similar to this one confirms my sad bias that certain segments of american society have chosen to entrench themselves in a fierce state of willful ignorance. My opinions have been unfortunately reinforced by disturbing personal interactions.

Imagine having to shush your Vanderbilt educated mother at the Christmas dinner table when she cheerfully derides our nigger president in a mortifyingly naughty toast.

These troubling experiences leave me for desperate higher planes of discourse. I hunger for thoughtful, intriguing discussion and meaty debate on matters both small and large. Intelligent conversation fortified by informed commentary seems to be nearly nonexistent in public venues and beyond scarce in most personal interactions.

Fortunately, one can still run across something wonderful on occasion. Which led me on a merry chase to a 1965 debate at the Cambridge Union between William F. Buckley and James Baldwin.

Simply brilliant.

 

 

 

 

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162 thoughts on “A Melancholy Country

  1. you do understand that anyone crying for a meaty debate and intelligent conversation really shouldn’t use the n word in a post.

    You claim I suffer hubris but your just southern country ignorant.

  2. What Troll said.

    Daphne, you say you crave meaty discussion but you seem full of baloney with this post.

  3. Same to you, Troll. Did you like the Hobbit? I thought it was great.

    Argo is another great movie if you haven’t seen it. Very suspenseful.

  4. Thanks for sharing this. I’ve sampled it, and will watch the whole thing over the weekend.

    To think that this day here started with reference to a subliterate professor, Cornel West, and it now ends with this clash of titans in such a setting.

    I’ve always admired Buckley. Here you see him at the peak of his powers. You shouldn’t have to go to the past to get dialogue of this caliber, but in.a post Hitchens world I guess one must.

    Good night.

  5. Loved it, was shocked where they ended it.

    Phantom you can’t get debate like that from people who don’t know the difference between Negro and the N word. If you have never seen the debate you will enjoy it, even if it’s soiled by the presenter of this post.

  6. You misunderstand what Daphne said, why she said it, and what she’s all about.

    Trust me on this one.

  7. no I understood her, I understood that it was her mother that used it, and she shushed her.

    The word is offensive. If she had dignity she would not have used it and still made her point.

    She didn’t.

  8. when it comes from someone that accuses me of hubris and has spent their time kicking others for much less it is not PC. It is a display of her own want.

  9. I no longer use the n-word. I consider ‘wog’ and ‘coon’ to be appropriate substitutes.

  10. I consider ‘wog’ and ‘coon’ to be appropriate substitutes.

    Except when you’re face-to-face with a black person,then you’d be too cowardly to use your favourite substitutes, right?

  11. Phantom: in.a post Hitchens world

    To paraphrase Galloway, Hitchens was a foul-mouthed, former Trotskyist, drink-soaked popinjay.

  12. Troll would ban Huck Finn. Read Hitchens on the use of the word – he discussed it in one of his essays, drawing the distinction that makes intelligent people understand the Allans of the world.

  13. Pete 1016

    I quite agree with that fourth paragraph.

    Once, we had the shimmering intellect of Buckley as the most prominent conservative voice on electronic media. Now, its the angry comedian Limbaugh. The Dems have has a similar decline.

    We can do better.

    One thing I loved about this video was at the end. Buckley relaxes at the end of a speech made to an audience that was not on his side. He knows that he has gven his best ( and Jesus, didn’t he though ). The vote goes heavily against him. And he immediatly stands up, smiling, and is in friendly conversation with those who opposed him.

    He took the greatest pleasure In the personal interaction. He just loved talking to people, and delighted in his friendships, including with adversaries, such as GK Galbraith, that often lasted a lifetime. We need more of this.

    William F. Buckley: the Gift of Friendship

  14. Petr – those would be substitutes for the n-word and not all (or even most) blacks are wogs or coons. There is a difference between blacks and coons just as there is a difference between whites and chavs (feral whites from low-grade estates). Even a racist knows that.

  15. One used to hear the n word here all the time, among whites.

    Now I still hear it. Now, used by blacks, Puerto Ricans, second generation Arabs.

  16. Phantom

    I think it will be a good thing if the charge could be taken from these words. They have too much power now. It needs to be done by the targets themselves.

  17. no I wouldn’t ban Huck Finn or a thousand other pieces of literature, it is your lot that does that. The woman is foul in more ways than one. Half of you believe the site was pulled because I called the President a name, yet you applaud her for the most offensive word.

    If the site was brought down for a word less offensive shouldn’t you be concerned? No because you are not consistent.

    As for the video debate Buckley might have lost by vote but not by reality. What he argued has come true and played out exactly.

    The Black Society in America is in millions of ways better than the common man around the world he was when this was filmed and is even more so today. I put it to you that racism does not exist anymore in America other than in the Black community itself.

    Now mind you I grew up in an area that has always been integrated. In many places in my state the blacks outnumber the whites, or have equal numbers and power so I may not see it as you do.

    What I have seen in my lifetime occur was exactly what the audience scoffed at. Not the elevation of black society but the tearing down of white society to use his words.

    The illegitimacy rate amongst whites has been increased the destruction of standards has taken place across the board. We have not raised one portion of society up, we have lowered the majority of it down.

  18. Look, this is not rocket science – or even high “meaty” intellect –

    as Progressives, it behooves both Daphne and Phantom to “pretend-idolize” dead Conservatives (Buckley) – while demonizing and mischaracterizing live Conservatives (Limbaugh).

    The day Daphne and/or Phantom praise the very much alive and “meaty” intellectual Thomas Sowell is the day I take their brand of “conservative” for anything more than Progressive misdirection.

  19. Daphne’s only mistake was not putting the word in speech marks to assert that she was quoting it. It is beyond daft to think that the word cannot be mentioned when clearly Daphne was using it to demonstrate how appalling her mother was being in using it. The attacks on Daphne here are ludicrous.

  20. Colm

    That is exactly what Daphne and her ilk have brought the American society too. There are words that can not be spoken by a white person or a straight person no matter the context.

  21. PM

    take her fourth paragraph and look at this thread. Where is she? Where is the debate on the subject matter of the video?

    I see a bullshit debate about the use of a word and nothing in regard to the context of the piece put forth for debate. Why?

  22. Phantom –

    Nonsense.

    William Buckley was a warmongering, pro-big government, pro-welfare state, pro-security state, international socialist.

  23. Troll –

    There are words that can not be spoken by a white person or a straight person no matter the context.

    You only cannot say certain words if you believe you cannot say them, which means either accepting the arguments of totalitarians or being intimidated by them.

    Free people say what they like.

  24. Troll

    The debate over the N word was caused by the very first person to comment on the post. Would you like to scroll up and see who that was ?

  25. Now this is Daphne’s fourth paragraph –

    These troubling experiences leave me for desperate higher planes of discourse. I hunger for thoughtful, intriguing discussion and meaty debate on matters both small and large. Intelligent conversation fortified by informed commentary seems to be nearly nonexistent in public venues and beyond scarce in most personal interactions.

    I think we’d all accept that I’ve contributed more than my fair share of intelligent discourse and conversation to ATW, often with great wit also, to soften the relentless pummeling of my intellectual blows.

    Some, however, rarely say anything interesting. You know who you are. Time to up your game.

  26. I read and ” idolized ” the great Buckley for many years when he was very much with us.

    BTW, as some here won’t know this, WFB was widely admired by adversaries as well as by his allies.

    In the article I linked to above, Chomsky expressed appreciation for the fact that Buckley would allow him to speak at length, without interrupting him. Compare with say Hannitty or O’Reilly of today, who allow those of opposing views on their shows, but who are constantly interrupting and badgering them.

    The post is a plea for a higher level of discourse and an extended example of what such discourse can be. That is her point, clear as can be.

  27. Colm I know who poked the beast. I did so for a point, or can you not see that?

    Pete Moore
    you are a crazy man yet I would much rather banter words with you on a ridiculous point than those who refuse to put forth an argument.

    The self proclaimed heavy weights of this site can not up a game they do not have.

    Now I’m off to sell guns…. business is booming.

  28. Buckley threatened to punch Chomsky too but it was very much in jest; not sure about Gore Vidal.

    In the article I linked to above, Chomsky expressed appreciation for the fact that Buckley would allow him to speak at length, without interrupting him. Compare with say Hannitty or O’Reilly of today, who allow those of opposing views on their shows, but who are constantly interrupting and badgering them.

    Good point. There’s a clip on YouTube of Chomsky and Buckley debating on Buckely’s show. Much more light than you’d ever get on a big show today. O’Reilly and Hannity are blowhards.

  29. This was not Buckley at his best. He talked/wrote about his failure here. He claims to have misunderstood what he was supposed to do, which is really quite arrogant…rather than losing gracefully…he claims I lost because I didn’t understand the rules. He also claimed to have been ‘set up’. At this time, Cambridge didn’t take before and after votes….when they took the before vote this time…Buckley said he knew he f’ed up. So what did he do? He made it personal….he attacked Baldwin personally rather than sticking to the debate. I haven’t read all the comments here and haven’t watched this debate recently…it made the rounds during both of the past two elections…but it’s pretty amazing that RFK predicted in 64 or 65 that we would have a black president though it was couched in a somewhat condescending way.
    Just another note…Buckley himself said he was no great intellect…he said he was rather very articulate. And, to give him credit…when he realized just how badly he screwed up….he changed his ways after this and he went on to debate issues and NOT debase his opponent as he did here.

  30. Vidal and Buckey really did hate each other, for most of their lives anyway.

    The exception to the civility principle.

    What set WFB off vs Vidal was a) Vidal’s support for a Communist victory in Vietnam at a time when US men were fighting there, and b) Vidal calling Buckley a ” crypto Nazi “

  31. RFK predicted a black president in 40 years in the mid-60s….I think he was off by one election if I remember correctly. BTW, Buckley went on to debate Baldwin again…I believe it had to do with labor…he stuck to the issues and didn’t attack Baldwin personally that time and I believe the consensus was that he won. The debate posted here was big lesson for Buckley about how NOT to debate.

  32. Cornel West was a favorite on Buckley’s tv show…They both loved the banter…They both said shocking things…like Buckley here…Blacks in Mississippi shouldn’t vote nor should the white trash. Here’s my theory…Buckley liked educated men, especially Ivy Leaguers. Baldwin wasn’t educated but had a huge intellect and was highly successful and he pretty much did it on his own without the benefit of a scholarship handed out by the elite white. Buckley was at home with West no matter how much they disagreed because of their educational backgrounds.
    To explain where I’m coming from…here’s a little background…after high school I went to school for 11 more years. I attended state schools, private schools, and Ivy League schools…I had great teachers at all. Cornel represents the type of teacher who could be intimidating and unconvential…but the classes were crazy lively. They say things to make people think outside the box and get out of their comfort zone. He’s the type of teacher who wants you to fight back and wants you to challenge him. It works great in the classroom but it fails on tv and radio because there’s no back and forth and no give and take. West is always in his ‘teacher’ mode and it doesn’t translate well outside the classroom. My problem with West is his socialism/Marxism and not his use of words like vanilla.

  33. Great post Daphne. If I was a neighbour of the watermelon joker I’d know what to do.

    Pete Moore
    Well said about Gore Vidal.

  34. Using the much maligned “n***r” word as a persuasive tool in a cry for a “meaty intellectual debate” is absurd.

    Also, putting the much loved – yet very dead – William F. Buckley on a pedestal, while demonizing all living persons currently mouthing conservative thought is disingenuous. At best.

    ergo, Daphne’s post is pure baloney. Yumm yum to the Progressive Left but thoroughly lacking in nutrition.

  35. I’m sure Limbaa is 100% with the watermelon joker. And maybe Fox will give him a slot to explain his great sense of fun? Wonder if he’s a Tea Party member?

  36. Peter: Limbaugh did a parody of a LA Times article once – the article was titled “Barack the Magic Negro” and it was written by a black journalist. Rush thought the article was ridiculous.

    Because Rush parodied the article’s ridiculous title, Rush was called a “racist” etc. ad infinitem.

    The Left is literal-minded whenever it comes to interpretation of something possibly offensive to them and “parody” apparently does not exist unless it is of their own making.

    Im sure that here on ATW, there are many on the Left who think it was wrong for Rush to call Obama a “magic negro” – even in parody – they are the same who would defend Daphne for writing the word “nigger” while calling for intellectual debate.

    Such is the state of our debate – the Left is hypocritical and apparently unable to think rationally.

  37. Patty

    Do you think that the golf shirt gesticulator Limbaugh is in the same intellectual universe as Buckley?

    How do you think Rush would do in a Cambridge Union debate?

  38. Patty

    Like others here you are in denial. Racism is alive and well on the Right, but you persist in claiming that only the blacks and their liberal allies are guilty of racism. This is the view of Limbaa and his cronies at Fox, no?

  39. Actually, Phantom, Rush was mocking someone who was race baiting.

    Daphne was purposefully inciting outrage because it’s a cheap and easy way to make a point.

  40. Peter –

    Assuming that Obama watermelon thing is on private property, what would you do about it?

  41. I would take direct action to avoid having to look at it from my property, maybe cover it with white paint? I’m sure the racist jerk neighbour would see the funny side.

  42. He might chuckle when you get done for trespass and criminal damage to private property.

    Quite right too.

  43. Patty

    Daphne was not inciting any outrage. It was you and Troll through reasons of personal anomosity towards Daphne who chose to have a mock fainting fit because she used the N word. There is absolutely not the slightest bit of substance to your faux outrage over Daphne’s mention of that incident. It is so transparently ridiculous and what’s more you both know it.

  44. Hey that Obama thing is hillbilly art…it’s racist but it’s art. It’s a reflection on the artist.
    I think Buckley failed to see that racism is systemic and institutionalized and that’s why he lost.

  45. Phantom: I think Rush’s intelligence and gifts are very different from Buckley’s. And I think there is room in the Conservative Movement for many more differences and personalities and different gifts.

    Rush loved Buckley. And Buckley listened to Rush’s show and sent him notes.

    Here is a quote from Rush on his radio show eulogizing his friend and idol, William Buckley:

    “…At any rate, we’re having some brandy and cigars after dinner at my little circular dining room table. I forget how many people were there. There might have been twelve people. The dining room table could seat 12 people. I guess I’d had one too many brandies, so I was a little less inhibited, and I stood up and I gave Bill a toast. This has to be 1996 or ’97. So this is after I’d met him and known him for a long time, and gotten to know him. I told him, “You know, my father passed away in 1990, but you make me think my dad’s still alive here with me,” and he started crying. He acted a little embarrassed. I said, “I see you tearing up, but it’s true.” I think, for all of the talk about how intelligent he was, that’s not even the word to describe it. Genius. The amount of knowledge he acquired and was able to spit back on virtually anything, was incomprehensible to me. His brain, his intellect, his use of it was indescribable — and he had an ego. He knew who he was and he knew what he bestowed on people. He knew what his impact was, but he was still very humble, and he was not accustomed to hearing a compliment like that.

    When I told him, “My father is still alive, Bill. You’re here,” he kind of got choky. He looked around. He looked at Pat and so forth, and I remember, too, Gay and Stanley Gaines, some dear friends of mine from here were there, maybe Newt Gingrich, too. That’s right. It was when Newt was there. Newt had invited a bunch of us, when he was speaker, to have dinner on the terrace outside his office — and then we decided to do it again at a different place. We did it at Buckley’s place next time, and then we did it at my place, and everybody came to the place to finish the troika of this. I remember it was funny. Newt and Buckley would have little arguments, and Buckley would tell Newt what he thought, and vice-versa. I can’t describe to you the thrill all of this was for me to be among such a giant and such an intellect, and somebody who really… We throw this term around “conservative movement,” and I do think that that label, that term narrows what we all are; you and I, what we believe. But, at the time, conservatism was in the process of growing and expanding and destroying the monopoly of the Drive-By Media.

    We’ve gotten so big now that we’ve splintered, and everybody is trying to be the next Buckley — not in terms of who he was as a man, but in terms of being thought of as the intellectual leader; the intellectual inspiration for the movement — and, as such, there’s now competition. There was no competition. Buckley just made it okay for people to come out of the closet, and everybody revered him. But now it’s a little different. This happens as organizations and life evolves and changes, and you can’t go back to what it was. But I’ve said oftentimes on this program, be it in elected officials or what have you, what we’re missing outside of the media is conservative leadership. So, we have a number of people who are trying to redefine what “conservatism” is, with themselves as the leader. Fine and dandy. Everybody is free to do what they want, but it’s causing rifts; it’s causing some splinters to take place, which is natural as well. It just makes me miss Mr. Buckley all the more. He was a leader with the power of his intellect and his presence — and not physical presence….”

  46. Pete

    Ok. Maybe a better response would be a sign in my front garden saying “Klanner next door! Only kidding!”

  47. Troll

    Yes that’s because you and Patty have probably had her thrown in the slammer for the crime of linguistic incorrectness 😉

    FREE DAPHNE NOW !

  48. A round of social engagements took precedence over slapping down the resident green-eyed monster and her halfwit sidekick, better known as our local village idiot.

    Unsurprising to find these two, once again, missing the greater point. It might be laughable if it wasn’t so neurotically pathetic.

    Much thanks to those who focused on the post and nailed these two idiots for their disingenuous outrage.

    ** I do believe a smattering of their pitchfork waving indignation was due to the fact that I outed a faction of their fellow tea party ideologues as less than racially circumspect.

    *** Pete Moore, you most certainly do contribute more than your fair share of substantive discourse on this site. It’s been a true and interesting pleasure, sir.

  49. A final note.

    I shared some of Patty and Troll’s blithering opinions with a newly elected senator over drinks yesterday. After a series of comical facial contortions, he said, “I hope they’re heavy GOP donors.”

  50. Imagine having to shush your Vanderbilt educated mother at the Christmas dinner table when she cheerfully derides our nigger president in a mortifyingly naughty toast.

    Blantant racism. It’s an ignorant use of language, base and low. Disgusting.

  51. Same thing happened to me at my sister’s wedding but it was my grandfather. We always just ignored him when he went racist but this time I scolded him publicly…it changed our relationship so I have mixed feelings…he died soon thereafter. I think I should have corrected him privately. I look at Cornel West that way too..an older man acting the same way he acted and could get away with in the 70s-80s.

  52. Just telling it like it is Daphne. I suspect if Patty is the ‘resident green eyed monster’ and troll is her ‘half wit’ village idiot side kick, i can live with ‘tart assessment’, but calling you on your obvious racist language is simply calling you on it. It’s offensive to most, and anyone with any command of the English language can usually get along without it. Most do. The baser ones don’t. It’s racist Daphne.. in the most foul way possible. Theres no need for it.

  53. Why did you incorporate the language without quotes or ital Daphne? As the writer it was your choice. It wasn’t necessary to substitute the “n word” but you made a writers’ choice to leave it flat.

  54. It was not racist in the context

    Troll took a cheap shot and a few PC phonies came along for the ride

    Get real. We’ve seen her comments for some years now.

  55. Let Daphne answer. Your tag-teaming and arse kissing takes away from your contributions here. Daphne is a strong woman and can answer for herself.

  56. The critics here are fraudulent in the extreme.

    Pretend offense taking. Very appropriate for an NI based blog

  57. Idid no such thing I pointed out that the use of the word is offensive in any context and if she had any dignity or talent should could have made clear what the word was without it’s usage.

    Both you Phantom and Daphne are hypocrites and phonies. Your commentary and history speak for itself.

    You can despise me, you can deride me, but I consistent and genuine. Where the two of you are just sad.

  58. If you copied your post from somewhere else you need to credit that…David could get in trouble.

  59. mairin I did no such thing, it is a false accusation from to scumbags. My post is my own and the parts block quoted are the text from the document that I link to.

    Don’t fall for the baseless accusations of assholes. If they accuse me place their proof.

  60. Troll

    Read the post, don’t skim it. You took a cheap shot at someone that you hate, and the mongrels even more ignorant than you actually followed.

    I said before that this wasn’t exactly a Mensa site, and some reactions here make that point do they not.

    I am a bit surprised at one respondant here. Not mairin, who is cranky when she wants to be.

    But kateyo is a voice of reason most times, from a part of the world where that can be hard to so,and here she calls Daphne’s criiticism of racist language as being an actual use of –racist language. After she has read Daphne’s comments here for some years, presumably including the ones she has made against racist language as directed against Obama. I am puzzled at this.

    Perhaps Troll will take some time away from his history treatises to conduct some sessions on grammar and punctuation. ” The Elements of Style Revisited ”

    Night. Cold as hell here.

  61. Don’t fall for the baseless accusations of assholes

    You are my hero Troll.

    That is the quote of the day

  62. I’m cranky when I want to be? It’s no wonder you’re single Tom and begging people to meet you. I publish lots of articles every day…I asked Daphne a question…nothing more, nothing less.

  63. Troll, I’m not one to fall for anything…I just remember that you have been accused of this before and you need to think twice and about your host.

  64. I have been accused of it before and I have not done it in the past nor do I do it now.

    If you join the others in accusing me of falsehood put up or shut up.

    Provide your proof any of you of any plagiarism in my post. The only parts that aren’t mine are block quoted and sourced. Are you as stupid as this ignorant Texas Cow or a buffoon like the ambulance chaser.

    So tell me Mairin when did you stop beating your spouse?

  65. Not yet…just thinking about it…;-)
    I didn’t say I believe the accusations…I was just advising that if they’re true, they have to stop.
    if you’re in the right, you’re in the right…excuse me now…I have to let my spouse out of the closet before the neighbors hear…;-P

  66. Troll

    I didn’t read your post, more than the first sentances. This is esoteric stuff. The Federalist Papers is down on my list.

    The style sure didn’t seem like your own. Elegant writing ain’t your thing.

    I can’t say that I am impressed by the current fetish of right wingers pretending to be Constitutional scholars.

    Don’t tell me about the Consitution. Tell me how you propose to solve the country’s problems.

  67. By the way, only American men have made personal attacks on me…and they cry when I give it back. Here’s a lesson…don’t start and I won’t give back.

  68. At no time have I observed any ” personal attacks ” on you here by any American man, except perhaps by Troll, who is a special case, not representing Pennsylvania, the East Coast or the USA.

    Give one example, at any time.

    You recently attacked mahons out of nowhere, for reasons still not understood.

    You certainly have not been ” personally attacked ” by me, unless you think pointing out recent crankiness is any sort of personal attack, especially in an ATW context.

    The hand of friendship was extended to you, solely as a fellow contributor to these pages, one who worked a few blocks away. I am genuinely astonished that this is how you choose to respond.

    Cheers. I just gave the Cambridge Union debate a full listen, while setting up my new Apple toy up. The question posed was stupid, the vote was wrong, but I loved listening tomthe two of them.

    The manner of my Apple purchase will make Pete Moore happy BTW.

  69. You are a liar.
    I attacked Mahons?
    I ignore him and a few nights ago I responded to him in kind.
    As for the debate…there’s a book called How To Win Arguments or something like that…this debate features in it as a way to lose arguments. Buckley has talked about his failure…I thought that was the reason Daphne posted it. It was an epic failure on Buckley’s part that he fully acknowledged.
    Don’t call me cranky…and I won’t call you creepy…deal?

  70. Phantom

    How come you think it ok to post regularly on a NI based blog and then insult us.
    “very appropriate for a NI based blog”.

    Well there is nothing pretend at the offence I take at it!

    Mairin
    No one is stopping Daphne answering. Similarly no one should be stopping anyone else commenting on any comments addressed to her or anyone else.

  71. Until very recenttly indeed, I saw you as one of the good, smart and balanced ones here. You still may be some of these things.

    You’ve not been personally attacked here that I have seen.. I never attacked you – give one example, and don’t pretend that observations of crankiness is some horrible defamation- and if mahons did defame youother than as a counterpunch when you were attacking him, I never saw it.

    Please share -any- ” first strike ” personal attacks by mahons , meyaelf or any others here. This has come from nowhere. Expliquez.

  72. Aileen

    It is widely observed that many in NI go well out of their way to receive an insult, even when it may not have been given. Senator Mitchell said it, it amazed him suring his time there.

    mairin is furiously responding to insults that were never made to her. In this respect, does she not have much in common with perpetually insulted / aggrieved partisans over there, who find insult if you say good morning to them?

  73. Phantom

    Considering what people have been through in NI, Mitchel’s observations are crass and patronising.

    His behavour does not get you off the hook. If I was to waltz on to an American based blog and make some patronising throwaway remark about something uncomplementry being typically American, it would be plain bad manners! Along with being insufferably patronising.

  74. Phantom –

    “The manner of my Apple purchase will make Pete Moore happy BTW.”

    You avoided taxes?

  75. Imagine having to shush your Vanderbilt educated mother at the Christmas dinner table when she cheerfully derides our nigger president in a mortifyingly naughty toast.

    Come on, who wouldn’t have had a chuckle? Alas, another thread becomes a car wreck. The lesson is clear: don’t toast the president.

  76. I agree, Daphne should be stoned for saying “Jehovah”, I mean “Nigger”

    ….

    Words aren’t magical incantations that have the same effects regardless of context. Talking about someone else saying “nigger” is quite obviously not like calling someone it.

  77. This is both the laugh and the challenge

    Phantom, on December 31st, 2012 at 5:32 AM Said:

    Troll

    I didn’t read your post, more than the first sentances. This is esoteric stuff. The Federalist Papers is down on my list.

    The style sure didn’t seem like your own. Elegant writing ain’t your thing.

    I can’t say that I am impressed by the current fetish of right wingers pretending to be Constitutional scholars.

    Don’t tell me about the Consitution. Tell me how you propose to solve the country’s problems.

    This is typical behavior of Phantom, Mahons, and Daphne. It is all also very typical American behavior from the progressive left.

    I made a statement that I was changing my tact, that my posts would be of a different nature. When I do exactly what I said I would I’m attacked and defamed. With neither a shred of reasonable argument or fact to back it up.

    Phantom also derides the “tendency” of the right to use and promote the constitution as our argument and he at the same time demands an answer to how we would fix the nations problems. That is the daily stupidity that we have to put up with here on this side of the Pond.

    Phantom you git the Constitution IS THE ANSWER. The founding law and Principals of our Nation work. It has only been the result of straying from that law and those principals that have damaged us.

    You refuse to acknowledge that for 100 years the progressives have steered us into policies that are based in socialism NOT capitalism. They have also guided us into despotism instead of republicanism.

    You are a very ignorant man. You lack understanding and knowledge of why things expanded in this country and why they have collapsed, and when people offer you both the reason and the solution you attack it because it is a concept and a history you neither understand nor want to learn.

    Socialism does not work the medicine for the cure is the Constitution sit down, shut up, and learn something.

  78. The Constitution is important, but it is not a thing to be worshipped. You sound like a Yemini saying that the Koran is the answer.You are not in the spirit of Jefferson and Franklin when you make it a fal god.

    On lots of things ( health policy, net neutrality, stock market ) the Constitution gives no guidance at all, nor should it be exoected to give guidance.
    I——

    Pere

    I had an excellent drive yesterday down to the Chriatiana Mall in the state of Delaware. There are no sales taxes in Delaware. On purchases of over $4000 that was a savings of over $350, I wish i had done this before.

  79. Petr

    How dare you quote Troll’s words against him.

    Though I bet that everyone who writes a lot will plaigiarize at times. It is very easy to do, unintentionally.

  80. True. Although the academic practice of acknowledging ideas as well as quotes is a good one, and should be used in any written piece. I can’t stand books that don’t have footnotes and/or reference lists. The author disrespects his/her readers by expecting them to take everything written on trust.

  81. In my case it only diverted the place of purchase. I would have bought these things anyway, through the mail or in NY.

    That zero sales tax may be the reason why this big mall exists where it does. A lot of people travel there from nearby states.

    Many people, myself included, buy gas ( petrol ) in NJ all the time as the tax there is up to 30 cents a gallon less than in NY and is noticably less than in PA too. It is a no brainer.

  82. You’d have to go back more than a year to find Mahon’s first strike as you call it…I ignored him then and thereafter. The funny thing is he insults people for the same things he is guilty of…I believe it’s called projection. Troll insulted me when I started commenting here again after a long absence…I ignored him and he stopped. Your first strike is above and I should have ignored you. Attack is too strong of a word. Poor choice on my part…insult would have been a better word. You read too much into comments…I’m not upset just tired of all the personal insults. And I’m not referring to myself…insults disrupt just about every thread on this site. I had to laugh the other night when I was reminded of why David admonished me all those years ago…it was more like 7 or 8 years ago when Jo was still a welcome guest here and a valuable contributor…David temporarily banned me for calling Troll a pig for something he said in reference to Jo’s daughter when they returned from a trip to Egypt. The funny thing is David sent his email of admonishment to my work address. I forgot to delete it so it’s been archived and will last for eternity. Every time the SEC does their spot checks, I pray they don’t pick that email to review.

  83. I’m not upset just tired of all the personal insults

    Yeah this kind of stuff degrades ATW:

    “So you stupid wench what is plagiarized? Pull your head out of your ass and stop making false accusations.”

  84. You may feel that you have received an insult from me, but I did not send one to you.

    Saying that someone is cranky at times is hardly any insult. Anyone here can say that about me anytime they wish.

  85. Yup…like that…last night is the first time in a long time Troll insulted me. But I learned a long time ago that David will always back him. It’s his site so it’s his right.

  86. Since am thinking of compiling a post of my greatest hits “With Malice Towards All”, I’d love to see the “first strike” against Mairin2.

  87. You’ll be waiting a long time, bro.

    She detects insults when none were ever given, or in my case, even contemplated, ever.

    But, what the hey. Move on.

  88. Mahons, I always thought that ‘No gain without disdain’, was more suited to your style of political commentary! 🙂

  89. Not to belabor, but I also do not understand the concept of nursing a perceived insult for –one year– and then going nuclear on the perceived insult hurler, in an out of context way.

    BTW – there is an unofficial convention on blogs where people don’t come to the aid of others on internet sites. I reject it and will never abide by it. I’ve come to the aid here of Unionists ( accused of being happy about British Army atrocities ), Nationalists ( accused of being terrorist ), Tea Party members ( accused of being racist ), Democrats ( accused of being anti American )

    I think that it is important, and necessary to counter false accusations made from any quarter, against any friend, and more especially against any adversary. That’s why I come to the defense of ( the great ) Daphne here, and that’s why I have also come to the defense, at times, of David, Andrew, Pete, mahons, pinky, Troll, Petr, and others.

    It’s what anyone should do.

  90. Daphne was purposefully inciting outrage because it’s a cheap and easy way to make a point.

    With such a controversial word she scored herself a lot of comments which was the intention, theres no ‘meaty intellectual debate’ here, and this post did not generate any intellectual debate, only insult hurling. Thats all there was here, nothing much to see so perhaps time to move on.

    Mahons you were saying you’d another post in the offing..?

  91. Phantom,

    I’ve never heard of such a convention of silence when a commenter is taking a beating on a thread, but, as you say, an occasional comment of support can be reassuring against some of the more unscrupulous bullies that infest the internet, especially those trolls whose sole purpose seems to be to set fire to the whole box of fireworks, regardless of who may get burnt. They are the kind who get pleasure in pulling the wings off butterflies and rarely contribute to a thread.

  92. I’d like to move on, but not before saying that none of the mean spirited criticisms / ” just asking questions ” grammar queries offered have even the remotest possibility of validity, unless those who wrote them think that there is a real possibility that Daphne is indeed racist.

    I don’t believe that there is a shred of evidence to indicate so. This entire thread has been political correctness gone amock, the result of intentional and unintentioal misreadings of text that could not be cleaner, something you might expect in ” Daily Kos ” or the like.

    Amazing stuff indeed.

  93. Ernest

    Concur.

    Send some of your Florida weather up here if you would. It’s as cold as a banker’s heart up here.

  94. I’d like to move on,

    Good lets do it…

    Theres too much else going on, and there are real threads already up on this site that could inspire some meaty intellectual debate, and with informed commentary some fine reading, so lets move on from this drivel and mutual mud slinging shall we?

  95. Phantom,

    Lol, – I’m in the UK at the moment – after all Christmas time is ‘family time’. However, we have a very special line on ‘drizzle’ here, – it is seemingly perpetual, and we do it so well! Much of the UK has floods, – nothing truly life threatening, but utterly miserable.

    Here’s to a better and happier New Year to you all! …

  96. kateyo

    Done.

    Ernest

    There are still floods over there? When I was there some months ago, there was major flooding in England. That’s still going on?

  97. over 8,000 in the irish republic are without power due to gales maybe thats why noel hasn’t been on lately? Weathers been awful, and on sat night the dubliners band went away… yep they officially now do not exsist. All gone, with john sheahan now retired as of saturday night in vicar st and barney mckenna dead now too.. all the originals are gone. The group of guys now that are the dubliners will carry on the name but the originals are all gone. I think thats very sad, the end of an era.

  98. Kate — Yeah, they’ve been put beyond use! Sad indeed.

    I think Noel lives in Germany so he might be ok from the wind.

  99. Years ago, I was stationed at the NATO base in Naples Italy.

    I bought a boom box as my ” entertainment system “.

    I turned it to an Italian station, and what in the world comes on but ” Seven Drunken Nights ” by the Dubliners, which I had not heard before. I thought- what kind of miracle is this?

  100. Phantom –

    It’s been going on since the Environment Agency warned in April of a drought that’ll last until Christmas. Currently there are 201 Flood Alert (they’re yellow) and 97 Flood Warnings (they’re red, so they must be the more serious ones).

    Basically it’s rained all year, the land is saturated and any new rain is just running off.

  101. They’ve a new guy in there called gerry o’connor who plays the banjo, he’s filling in for barney and hes good but he just doesn’t have barneys banter. it was the craic like, they all got along so well. Vicar st is a good venue, and it was full of yanks on fri and sat night to see them. place was in uproar, it was a brilliant night.

  102. I’m not going to wade through a year’s worth of posts…but it was either when I was in Ireland or heading there. Phantom asked if I would like to meet up for drinks and I said I’d be out of the country. Mahons chimed in with some cynical comment about me talking about myself all the time…similar to what he said about Troll recently only it wasn’t as lengthy or contiuous. The funny thing is, Mahons has written so much about himself in detail, we could just about go and knock on his front door right now…pot-kettle thing. What was even stranger was Phantom sent me a private email off the site at that same time and asked if I would meet for dinner with Mahons and his wife. First, I thought it was an abuse of privilege that he would use my email…not sure how he got it but I assume that as a writer here he has access it. Second, why would I want to meet Mahons and his wife. So, Phantom….look for the email you sent me. The first strike would be on or about that date. This is getting rea
    This is getting really silly.

  103. I have never discussed any meetings, dinner or otherwise, with mahons that would have included his wife. I have never discussed her with him. That invitation could never have happened.

    My recollection is me trying to set up a friendly downtown NYC summit. That was it.

  104. Do you really want me to post them? there are two of them. I just found them. I stand corrected, it was for cocktails. You will be very embarrassed if I post them in their entirety. I only realized last week that your emails were a farce and that neither Mahons nor his wife were aware of your plans.

  105. Me to You
    November 15 2011

    November To avoid the end of the year crush, we may propose a end of year cocktail this coming Monday or Tuesday.

    Mahons is checking with Mrs. Mahons so please stand by.

    We may ” occupy ” a local establishment for a short while

    Mahons was checking with Mrs. mahons on schedules, as they have young children, etc.

    This was your response a couple of days later. ( personal details scrubbed )

    Awww…I’m leaving for Dublin Wednesday and things are a little hectic so I won’t be able to make it. Have fun though!
    Good luck today with all the OWS craziness going on today. Hopefully the rain will keep the numbers down though some are supposed to ‘occupy’ the Staten Island Ferry Terminal @ 3pm so they’ll have ‘cover’. I have some softness in my heart for them and some of their various causes even with the crazy hangers-on…in 20 years time, they’ll think “What was I thinking?!”
    Have a nice Thanksgiving!

    Only a couple of days after that was a followup email from you referring to mahons as ” creepy and sleazy ” which gobsmacked me but good, as I never knew of any problem between you two.

    No complaint about the off line communication – though I would of course have respected that

    No invite for dinner to anyone from anyone or to meet anyone’s wife. I don’t know his wife’s name.

    It’s really ok – but if your recollection is wrong on all these facts, it may also be wrong on the perceived bad or disrespectful comments from mahons.

    I very much like the personal comments from mahons about his town on July 4, the occasional mentions of family, all of that. I hope that he continues with them.

  106. There’s another email that’s similar. I don’t have a problem with Mahon’s writing at all. I’ve complemented him on it and I hope he continues. It’s the pot-kettle thing I find amusing. I didn’t complain about your abusing your privilege because I didn’t want it to to make a big deal and only brought it up here because of your comment to Mahons above. In any event, I see now we’ve all been asked to stop this nonsense and I plan on complying. If you want to continue it be my guest.

  107. Yes, there ware about two other emails along identical lines. My memory of a year ago is perfect, I am happy to say. They were about a friendly invitation and friendly responses, about five or six in total.

    I am at a loss to explain the exceptional and sudden hostility, but I am happy that all here can see what is true and what is not true, should they wish to torture themselves with the reading of it.

    The Belfast, London, New York, and Austin ” summits ” that have happened before – involving invites to/from Daphne, Alison, David, Colm, Frank, mahons, myself – have all involved offline invites / organization involving the email addresses used to identify oneself with the site itself. Never a problem with any of it. Not sure of a better way to do it.

    Happy New Years.

  108. Mairin

    mairin2, on December 31st, 2012 at 1:33 PM Said:

    Yup…like that…last night is the first time in a long time Troll insulted me. But I learned a long time ago that David will always back him. It’s his site so it’s his right.

    First off I did not insult you. Please provide why you think I did? I defended myself against you as you joined with the other 3 in an accusation of Plagiarism. Which was both unfounded and untrue. I put my question of When did you stop beating your spouse up as an example. A question in how it is worded is an accusation. It was meant to teach.

    Phantom has come to my defense in the past as well as others that he does not agree with in his way it is a point for which he should be honored.

    Mahons on the other hand is a caricature. He Malice post will be interesting reading I’m sure (not)

    Daphne I believe to be very narrow minded in her Southern views. She has reflected other things in the past. Do I believe her to be racist? NO. I believe her to be just ignorant in both thought and sometimes malicious act.

    I find the use of the N word offensive. I find it’s use the intentional tossing of a grenade, whenever it is used and by whoever on all sides of the spectrum.

    Those that decry that this thread became a bitch session are the ones that continued to make it so. There were attempts to steer it back to the video which were summarily dismissed.

    As was stated by another on here who is almost as reviled as me “up your game folks”

    Amusing the ones that are considered the crazies are the ones calling for real debate.

  109. ” Southern ” views?

    Cmon, this is 2012?

    Daphne lives in Austin. Which is culturally and maybe politically as ” liberal ” as NYC or Boston is.

  110. Troll…you asked if I was still beating my spouse. There’s no basis for that comment and anyway he likes to be kept in the dark with chains. He’s always been a very bad boy… ;-p
    I’m happy to hear P has come to your defense in the past. That’s kind of him to defend you. As for Mahons…bah… No comment. It really isn’t that important and not something anyone will lose sleep over. I’m not that familiar with Daphne…but she is a very good writer and I think the Buckley-Baldwin post is the first thing I’ve read of hers.. I don’t read all posts and I don’t read all comments…who could? Writers make choices…I’m curious as to why she made her choice but I don’t think it automatically makes her racist.
    As for the plagiarism…I’m glad to hear your in the clear. Maybe you think I should have trusted you…maybe I should have…no offense meant.
    Anyway, Happy New Year…I’m sure 2013 will prove to be good year for you and your family.

  111. Kateyo, nice to know I’m missed 🙂
    Actually I’ve been skiing, or rather watching my wife and kids skiing – very difficult with all this fog around.
    Now I’m in Slovenia, and again it’s fog, fog, fog.

    Phantom, when you were in the USN in Italy were you ever in Trieste? Yesterday I was there for I think the 20th time and only now found out there is a large USN base in the harbour.

    mairin2, I’m sure you misunderstood mahons. He can be caustic, but not mean to anyone who stays civil (well, apart from Allan)
    BTW, did you comment on this site some time ago under the same Marin without the “2”?
    I’ve been here a long time too. What name did you use in the old days?

  112. Oh, I didn’t realize Mahons would be writing a malice post. Whatever floats his little boat.

  113. Mairin there is an old joke in academia to show an example of biased question that traps the person asked it by it’s very premise. that example question is “Mr. Jones tell us When did you stop beating your wife?” Since you being a woman I didn’t think it appropriate to ask you when stopped beating your wife. I was using it as an example of Mahons Pinky and Daphnes “questions” about my post to be the same trick question nothing more.

    Phantom Yes Southern Views Austin is filled with Rednecks, Rednecks with money. You must also remember You have New York Views, I have Pennsylvanian views, She has Texan views, our states are bigger than a lot of countries in the EU.

    We have an underlying thread of being American but do you really deny the difference of views from region to region?

    What some people consider stupid or ignorance is very much determined by where you are standing in the country at the moment something is said.

  114. I sadly never visited Trieste. The closest I would have been would be Venice.

    I did not know of a base in Trieste

  115. Troll

    There are big regional differences, but there are plenty of conservatives in NY and plenty of liberals in TX

    And your region voted Obama twice

  116. Mahons likes to make comments at other people’s expense. Like I said I usually ignore him. Caustic…no…immature yes. It boggles the mind that a grown man with young children bothers with that sort of thing on an Internet site with a woman he doesn’t know.

  117. Yes Noel. I think that would have been me…not sure though, I was away for quite a while and was unable to log back in with the old ID.

  118. but there are plenty of conservatives in NY name 5…lol

    Yes the only republican to carry the state in half a century was Reagan, Pennsylvania is also the #1 state in firearm sales.

    He disappoints me, he is trained Lawyer he should be able to present an argument

  119. Got it, Troll…so now you’ve tricked me into telling the Internet that I keep my spouse under lock and key in the closet…thanks a lot!!!

  120. //Noel you are always missed, Not be me, but you are missed//

    Cheers, Troll. Let’s hope if you ever get me in your gun sights you will also miss me 🙂

    And speaking of guns, I hereby declare a complete and unilateral ceasefire (albeit without decommissioning of weapons) with everyone on ATW.
    Let’s all wipe the slate clean for 2013, start anew, turn a new leaf and, above all, never mix metaphors.
    The farmer and the cowman should be friends.

  121. That’s what I have been aiming for… (not you 😉 ) On my post the First and the first part two. So far no luck, but I have been here a while I will continue on the my new tact and see if anyone follows.

    But just as those old guys taught us, human nature is human nature.

  122. Every December 31st I have to wipe the slate clean and pretend people who are idiots are not? Ok. Why not. They’ll demonstrate otherwise by January 1st.

  123. The people who rounded on Daphne really need to read that post again. To deride someone to that extreme without mentioning allan@aberdeen is at best negligent and at worst knowingly obtuse. I haven’t read long enough to know why there is bad blood there but her point is sound. I will not presume to speak for her, but it is obvious to anyone with basic comprehension skills what was intended.

    I am particularity disappointed with kateyo who I follow on twitter and had her down as a level headed lady.

    BTW Phantom is spot on re Sen. Mitchell. I know people on both sides of the ‘divide’ who keep score on mentions of Londonderry and Derry on news broadcasts. Daft in the extreme but very real. I am NI born and bred but I have lived abroad. Maybe that is the key? To see how other people see us is an eyeopener and a constant source of embarrassment.

    Happy new year chaps and chnpesses

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