52 6 mins 14 yrs

A couple of weeks ago on some thread or other (I forget which), I commented that if the current rate of immigration, along with our government’s policy of appeasement and multiculturalism, remains unchecked, then the UK’s long-term future would surely be akin to "Yugoslavia (1990’s) all over again". My comment attracted little or no direct response, and I’m not all that surprised, really. People probably had no idea what I was groaning on about.

– And why should they? The main news channels give us no hint whatsoever of the relevance of my point.

Kosova declared formal independence from Serbia on Sunday, as I’m sure we’re all aware.  Hey, isn’t that just great, fine and tickety-boo dandy? A bunch of oppressed "majority ethnic Albanians" have finally managed to secure their independance from the ruthless oppression of Serbia, and that’s pretty much all there is to say about it, right? Boo hiss to the nasty Serbs (probably all Tories), and bravo (comrade!) to the courageous Kosovans! I mean, read a BBC or Guardian report, and that pretty much sums up the whole story – there are no wider geo-political, cultural or religious issues to be addressed, so the MSM would have us believe.

Well, sweet and sour Cantonese pork chops to that pile of nonsense, my friends. Rather than re-type in so many words what other, more intelligent bloggers have already said, I’ll defer to Archbishop Cranmer and to one of his commentaters:

"It is easy to forget that the Serbs have been an enduring ally of the British and the US in the Balkans for decades, helping to counter murderous fascist forces. And yet Britain and the EU have chosen to champion the causes of Albanian and Bosnian Muslims […] – the long-time adversaries of Western democracy.

The elections in Kosovo have necessitated an ethnic cleansing to which the world has been both blind and deaf. […] There has been a systematic elimination of Serbs and Jews and gypsies from Kosovo since the UN took over in 1999.  Those responsible for that ethnic cleansing now form the ‘government’ of Kosovo.

The supreme irony must be that NATO and the UN have contributed to the very ethnic cleansing which they attacked Serbia to prevent. The result of the Yugoslav war is the ethnic cleansing not BY Serbs, but OF Serbs – hundreds of thousands of them.

Serbia claims that Kosovo’s declaration of independence violates Serbia’s sovereignty and threatened a a new escalation of tension and ethnic violence in the region – a new conflict in the Balkans.

‘Thus does Europe go full circle and thus do the US and UK find themselves on the side of their enemies, destroying their traditional allies.

And to what piece of music have Kosovo’s leaders decided to announce their independence?
Beethoven’s ‘Ode to Joy’, of course…

 
…Of course.

Aeneas commented on that thread, and his/her comment deserves reproducing:

The recognition of the independence of Kosovo by the British Government is not just a betrayal of the Serbs but a betrayal of the interests of the British people. The UK Government may pay lip service to the principles of Western democracy but in my view it does not believe in those principles.

The desire of the Western elite to Islamise Europe has been given a boost by the declaration of independence by Kosovo. It has occurred with the blessing of Western leaders because it assists the plans of the western elite to destroy the identity of western nations. They do not support the principle of national independence, because if they did they would not be trying to take independence away from the subject peoples of the European Union.

Furthermore, for Western leaders to recognise the independence of Kosovo at a time when Islamists are assaulting the Western world will probably be seen as a sign of profound weakness by the Islamists. Our experience in the 1930s demonstrated that appeasement does not work, because it invites further demands for concessions. I do not think for a moment that Western support for Kosovo will in any way result in the Islamists halting their campaign against the Western world.

I suspect that it will only be a matter of time before Shari’a law is implemented in Kosovo with the consequent institutionalised discrimination of non-Muslims. This will not upset our leaders too much because they seem to be making concessions to Shari’a principles within their own jurisdictions anyway and Shari‘a in Kosovo will only reinforce demands for such concessions.

If the UN was serious about its own Declaration of Human Rights, Shari’a law would be illegal and countries practising it subject to UN sanctions. The independence of Kosovo in my opinion will lead to the expansion of the Shariasphere and in the process further undermine the principles of liberal democracy and political and religious freedom.

The British Government is acting against the best interests of the British people on this issue, but that should not come as a surprise – acting in such a way is simply what New Labour does.

 

– Well spoken, both Cranmer and Aeneas. Although almost certainly not for the same reasons, I have to admit that I share Russia’s concerns and opposition to this weekend’s news.

Strangeways Serbia, Here We Come.

 

 

 

 

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52 thoughts on “A rush and a push and the land is ours

  1. I could have had a lot more sympathy for the Serbs if they hadn’t acted so horribly against in Bosnia after the death of Tito.

    I won’t say that I’m an expert on the history of Kosovo. But I believe it has been overwhelmingly ethnic-Albanian for a long time. And that the chasm between Serbs and Albanians is irreconcilable.

    I see no solution other than an independent Kosovo, with border adjustments, and full protection of the rights of the Serb minority. The last clause being the most important.

  2. Interesting post Tom. Great you are posting

    Although technically not all EU members have endorsed it. I think it was decided in Washington wasn’t it?

    So many US and Union Jack flags being waved there in Kosovo over the weekend too.

    There are some big splits in Europe over this. Doesn’t that sort of indicate this conspiratorial "western elite" isn’t all in agreement?

    And really why would the US want to see Europe islamised? It doesn’t make any sense at all. I don’t buy that I’m afraid.

    I think its more about hacking off Russia and buffering them myself

  3. The declaration is a disgrace and a victory for terrorism. What happened during the war in Bosnia has no relevance to the Kosovo question.
    Kosovo is a province of Serbia. Fact.
    For this declaration to be supported by the US and most of Europe beggars belief.
    It now gives its blessing for any terrorist movement worldwide to know that a campaign of violence and bloodshed can reap rewards.
    The KLA are a terrorist Islamic organisation and the world is hiding its head at the rightfull plight of Serbia.
    It is estimated that there are now more people of Asian decent living in e.g. Bradford. Do we now allow Independence for Bradford?
    Serbia must now have our support in its time of need.
    Well done Tom for highlighting this travesty.

  4. My sympathies are with the Serbs in this dispute. They have an ancient history of opposition to the Turkish muslim invasion of Europe, and have many national heroes in that fight. Albania is a muslim state and at the same time a centre of criminality in Europe. Their unpleasant influence is now spreading Europe wide. Islam or the sword was what was on offer from the Turks and Serbia was the front line, for which they suffered. From 1939-1945 they were our great allies, and again they suffered from German occupation, while the Croats were allies of the Nazis. The support of the EU for Kosovo and the Albanians seem somehow predictable, and regretable.

  5. How could the ethnic Albanians and the Serbs ever be reconciled, now? How could a Serbia that includes Kosovo ever function?

    So much water has gone over the dam now, that the only way a Serbia that included Kosovo could ever exist would be with the complete subjugation of the ethnic Albanians or with their expulsion from Kosovo.

    As it is, there seems to be a genuine pro-US and pro-EU stance among many of the Kosovars which is not a bad thing.

    This is a very bitter pill for the Serbs, but what possible alternative is there?

  6. Its about EU energy security and delimiting russian influence in the region. period, end of. Infact, you know immediately that there is more to it than matters of independance and soverignty, when the US, UK and EU are all climbing over each other to recognise the new nation state.

    its got little to do with with the Serbs or the Kosovars. The only thing that matters is what the western european powers and the US get out of it. which looks an awful lot like military bases for the US and oil/gas pipelines for europe.

    Also, the interesting thing about Kosovo, the KLA and the region in general is how it casts an altogether different light on the "War on Terror". Here we have Islamic extremists, the US, NATO and the EU all in bed together. If anything demonstrates more clearly the bunkum we are fed im all ears.

    As for the paranoid ramblings of the second quote, i dont think he could be further from the reality of this situation.

    This is worth a look at.

    http://www.savekosovo.org/default.asp?p=4&leader=0&sp=12

  7. Daytripper

    What paranoid ramblings, other than your own I mean?

    I ask again, how could the ethnic Albanian Kosovars ever accept the authority of a Serbia that so openly despises them, and vice versa?

  8. The entire conflict in the former Yugoslavia came about as a result of Milosevic’s fomenting of Serbian nationalism. It was always going to be the case that the end result would be the secassion of all majority non-serbs by geographical area from Serbia, including Kosovo. To argue that Serbia has the inalienable right to Kosovo is like saying China has the right to re-incorporate Taiwan.

  9. Phantom – Russia and China are Daytripper’s points of light. If you start from there you begin to understand his views.

  10. Alison, Cranmer’s commenter said "the desire of the Western elite", and I don’t think (s)he specifically meant the USA by that, but rather, European leaders.

    Thanks, JM.

    Phantom, you’re right. That’s my whole point – it’s far too late now for Serbia to act (unless it wants to prosecute an all-out war to get its own territory back – and NATO won’t let it do that, of course, as we’ve already seen*). Let’s learn from Serbia while we still have time, and try and make sure that we don’t allow ourselves to reach the stage where it’s too late for us. That’s what I’m really trying to say.

    * Which brings me on to Daytripper’s comment. I think he has a good point, actually. "Here we have Islamic extremists, the US, NATO and the EU all in bed together". Well, yes, it seems that way, and NATO’s intervention in Kosovo (pro- the Kosovans and anti- the Serbs) does seem completely at odds with the goals of its intervention in Afghanistan. I don’t think that this contradiction makes a complete bunkum of the "war on terror" though – as Daytripper suggests, it’s probably a case of us having to kow-tow to Russian influences for the time being. A "lesser of two evils" situation – a bit like the way the USA armed and supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war of 1980-88. That did not mean that the USA regarded Iraq as a long-term ally, but simply that they would rather see Iraq defeat the more dangerous Iran, than see Iran win. Perhaps in the same way, NATO weighed up the options and decided that it was better to have an independent Kosovo than a strong, united, Russia-backed Serbia. It’s all a huge game of chess and forward-planning for the military top-brass.

    Colm, although I hate to say it (because I favour democratic states above dictatorships), China does have the technical right to hold onto Taiwan. It is part of Chinese territory, and if the Taiwanese want to declare independance, they have no automatic right to it, but it must be settled by war. Now I don’t like admitting that, because I abhor the Chinese communist system and I want it to be destroyed and replaced with a free, democratic system. But that’s not the issue.

  11. I understand that even less then Tom since there is more resistance to this from within the EU than over in Washington.

  12. Also my last sentence echoes Tripper who i think raises a valid (and fairly obvious) point. Wasn’t it Russia getting all snarky about the some US weapons system being installed recently?

  13. The EU have once again made themselves a laughing stock for the world.
    Congratulations to the countries who have refused to go along with this illegal act and i hope that when the time comes (and it will come) that they continue to support Serbia with more than just words.
    I wonder now what will happen with the Basque region, Western Shahara etc etc.
    Will the world accept independence from them?
    Or from the sublime to the riduculous, i hear that things are stirring up in Cornwall?

  14. I understand what you mean, Alison.
    I think what I said re Daytripper’s comment has a bearing on the USA’s positive reaction: The USA’s main strategic enemy is Russia, and not Islamic expansion. Therefore I think the USA’s support of the independence of Kosovo stems from the fact that it weakens Russian influence in Europe. That’s what matters most to the USA. They’re bothered, but not TOO bothered about the Islamisation of Europe – as long as it only affects Europe. Russia has ICBMs after all, whereas Islam does not (yet).

    Whereas over here, our main concern is the spread of radical Islam, hence some EU members have reservations about Kosovo.

    Well, that’s my loose theory to explain the differing reactions anyway, Alison.

    (PS: no offence intended to American writers/commenters, by what I just said. All I’m saying is that the USA is (quite rightly) acting in its own best interests, just like we should be doing).

  15. >>US, UK and EU are all climbing over each other to recognise the new nation state.<<

    That’s not true about the EU, which has no single policy on the matter, and many EU member states are vehemently opposed to an independent Kosovo.

    >>Albania is a muslim state and at the same time a centre of criminality in Europe. <<

    The usual tosh from the Blame-dem-Muslims brigade.
    Just look how these pious Muslims in Kosovo celebrated independence yesterday (click picture 3):

  16. >>hence some EU members have reservations about Kosovo.

    Well, that’s my loose theory to explain the differing reactions anyway, Alison.<<

    A bit too loose to tie in the facts, Tom. Have a closer look at the EU states opposed to Kosovo independence and you may find the real reason, which has absolutely nothing to do with your pet hate religion.

  17. The point is, however, Noel that it’s not Albania, it’s Serbia.
    Albania dosen’t want them.
    Serbia is a mainly Christian nation and Christianty, unlike Islam preaches tollerance to those of other faiths.

  18. Sorry, Noel but… BBC Alert, BBC Alert! BBC News article identified on radar, all personnel to bridge, repeat, all personnel to bridge, battle stations! Lieutenant Uhuru, give me the frequency! Scotty, full thrust to the engines!

  19. Yes Tom you’re right the same BBC that now describe the Kosovan ‘Prime Minister’as a ‘guerilla’ instead of the terrorist that he is.

  20. >>Serbia is a mainly Christian nation and Christianty, unlike Islam preaches tollerance to those of other faiths.<<

    There were times when hunted members of certain unwanted religions fled the tolerant "Christian nations" for Islamic ones, and it wasn’t at all long ago either.

  21. "they have no automatic right to it, but it must be settled by war"

    Tom – I am a bit worried by that statement. Are you saying that war is the only legitimate way of dealing with territorial disputes ?

  22. Certainly not, Colm. There is always a choice in such matters.
    Country A says to Country B: "We say that this is our land. Surrender now, or we will take it from you by force".
    Let us be absolutely clear that Country B is under no obligation at all to resort to war. Whatever gave you that idea? It can simply say "Erm, Oh, alright then, take it, it’s yours" and not a single shot need be fired. That’s nice and peaceful and John Lennon-ish, isnt it?
    It’s only when nasty old Country B replies "well, look here old chaps, we do see your point, but we rather disagree with your conclusion" that a bit of the naughty old "bang-bang" has to happen, which poor Mr Lennon gets his knickers in such a twist about.

  23. "The EU have once again made themselves a laughing stock for the world."

    That makes no sense at all given who endorsed this today. It’s a pretty ham fisted attempt at having another go at the EU.

    "Therefore I think the USA’s support of the independence of Kosovo stems from the fact that it weakens Russian influence in Europe. That’s what matters most to the USA."

    Exactly right Tom. Plus you factor in what Tripper said and you have the whole picture.

  24. Not a great deal Mahons. I just do not view this as some vast islamic conspiracy. More the US UK and some EU states wanting to buffer Russia out.

  25. Alison

    Only Russia, Spain, Romania, Slovakia and Cyprus have come against this nonsense. Therefore the majority of EU countries have ‘made themselves a laughing stock’ by going against international law and their own EU directive.
    Am i against the EU. 100%. The UK should never have joined.
    Kosovo was offered Automony by Serbia. In fact it already had it in all but name. Serbia wanted more negotiation, more talks.
    So what has Kosovo gained? Absolutely nothing. The only people who will suffer are the Serbs who still live there.
    It will now, i fear come to war. Serbia now has no other option.

  26. This is all a bit rich (and a bit late in the day), coming from a blogger who calls himself after Thomas Cranmer, founder of the washed-out Anglican church.

    He’s kind of pigeon-holed himself before he’s even begun.

    Let’s hear it from a real Serb.

  27. What paranoid ramblings, other than your own I mean?

    dont flatter yourself, i was talking of aeneas’s quote. islam, as usual has little to do with it.

    Phantom – Russia and China are Daytripper’s points of light. If you start from there you begin to understand his views.

    laugh it up fuzzball. but this is all about russia. the serbs and even the kosovars are irrelevant.

    A "lesser of two evils" situation – a bit like the way the USA armed and supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war of 1980-88.

    that maybe so alison, and i dont disagree. but is this not the same murky double dealing that eventually led to 9/11. infact whats even more disturbing is that its always the same people. iran-contras and the bushes etc etc ad nauseum.

    That’s not true about the EU, which has no single policy on the matter, and many EU member states are vehemently opposed to an independent Kosovo.

    youre right and i should have been so hasty with the ascii. but in fairness noel france, germany, uk and italy have all come out in favour of independance.

    What is wrong with decreasing Russia’s influence in Europe?

    outside the warsaw pact nations it never really had any influence. and what influence it does have now, primarily with energy supplies, is dealt a blow by this event. western europe will look to reduce its dependance on russian gas supplies by piping it through our new friends in the balkans.

  28. Daytripper

    But if the US and the various EU countries had taken the Serb side, they would have been "anti-Muslim" I am sure. Right?

    So here they cannot possibly be accused of that, so now its part of some energy thing. Guess a conspiracy theory can always be back-filled into any geopolitical event.

  29. Fuzzball? Is that what communists are now using as an insult? I prefer the old insult capitalist running dog from your puppet masters.

    And thank you Daytripper, I’ll put the Russia never really had any influence in Europe with Chris Gaskin’s Sinn Fein has no ties to the IRA. A classic.

  30. I’m not going to whitewash the Serbs, but making them out to be the bad guys, whilst giving a free pass to the Albanians, the Croats and the Bosnian Moslems is nonsense.

    During the wars in the ’90s, we were given a wholly distorted version of events in the West. What happened in the ‘safe havens’ is crime rightly leveled at the Bosnian Serb forces under Mladic, but other notorious incidents, like the bombing of various markets, which were blamed on the Serbs, have since been blamed on Izebegovic’s Bosnian government, by the UN and by Lord Owen, in order to influence western public opinion. The ethnic cleansing of the Serbs from Krajina by the Croats was a crime that was largely overlooked. The photos of Serb-run concentration camps were exposed as fakes – I don’t think anyone still defends them). The role played by the US and Germany in encouraging secession is highly questionable. Whether the country was doomed no matter what is hard to say, but no one should kid themselves that Tudjman and Izebegovic were any better than Milosovic. The Balkans is one of those places it’s better to keep out of, like Afghanistan, because it’s a quagmire. A bit late for that, one might say, but the NATO bombing of Serbia was wrong, and NATO’s blind eye to ethnic cleansing since it moved into Kosovo is also wrong. Yet again, it looks like our troops are to be put in harms way for no clearly understandable reason.

  31. RC

    I am not knowledgeable enough to really address what you say–and what you do say does not sound impossible by any means.

    But what solution would you recommend? I tend to support Kosovo independence because for no other reason than it is less bad than any other alternative I can think of.

    The Serbs and ethnic Albanians utterly despise one another and that will never change. How can they stay together in Serbia?

  32. Or that Eire has to Ulster? or Turkey or Greece to Cyprus…

    Exactly Ernest. Much as the ROI may want a UI, this cannot be done without the consent of the people of NI (Ulster is not the same as NI by the way. 1/3 of Ulster is in the ROI).

    As The Phantom says.

    This is a very bitter pill for the Serbs, but what possible alternative is there?

  33. But if the US and the various EU countries had taken the Serb side, they would have been "anti-Muslim" I am sure. Right?

    So here they cannot possibly be accused of that, so now its part of some energy thing.

    phantom, that you cant see the screamingly obvious is not my fault. Europe has serious energy supply issues. and if they all cared so much about thse muslims then why do they support a government with links to organised crime, drug trafficking and terrorism.

  34. Mahons

    ‘laugh it up fuzzball’ is from Star Wars, Solo to the Wookie, pretty harmless 😉

    JM

    Why the over-focus on the EU? Besides it was mostly British and American flags, plus the odd EU one, being waved like crazy by all the masses over the weekend.

  35. "primarily with energy supplies, is dealt a blow by this event. western europe will look to reduce its dependance on russian gas supplies by piping it through our new friends in the balkans".

    Totally agree with that Tripper. Energy supply is a significant factor in who was quick to endorse this. Not th eonly factor but one of them for sure.

  36. "Exactly Ernest. Much as the ROI may want a UI, this cannot be done without the consent of the people of NI"

    A dangerous concept, Kloot. What if a referendum was held in Tibet now? Would the native Tibetans still be able to obtain their freedom or would the Mandarin planters have enough numbers to prevent it? If the latter, is this fair? I think not.

    While it is unquestionable that Ulster is an integral part of Ireland, a strong argument may also be made that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia. It was historically so – and the Battle of Kosovo is a strong part of Serbian national consciousness.

    In my view, the fact that the Serbian population is quite small there now should not mean that this is no longer the case.

    Similarly, while the Milosovic regime acted disgracefully there (and, of course outside of Serbia proper), this should not be reason enough to punish the Serbian people by stripping them of Kosovo.

    Other factors – despite supporting Serbia on Kosovo, Russia will use this UDI as a pretext to support independence for the (almost comical) puppet regions of Abkhazia and North Ossetia in Georgia and Transdniester in Moldova.

    Also, the Kosovan Albanians, while clearly deserving of some form of autonomy are by no means the innocent parties here. The actions of the Albanian minority in FYR Macedonia suggest it isn’t only the dastardly Serbs that have ideas of a "Greater" ethnic state.

  37. Did they just discover oil in Kosovo or have they moved it so that it can be used as transit for some pipeline?

    Because if neither of these things has happened, then the "energy security" argument is a Chomsky baby-talk angle that does not make sense no matter how you look at it.

    Perhaps more time should have been taken in concocting a conspiracy theory. This does not pass any real world "what if" test.

    If the USA/EU wanted to do an energy security deal, they would have placated the Russian bear.

    And when Britain/France/Germany/Italy have recognized the place, thats not the odd flag signing on. That is the heart and soul and power of the EU.

  38. "To argue that Serbia has the inalienable right to Kosovo is like saying China has the right to ..Taiwan."

    "Or that Eire has to Ulster?"

    Or that the UK has to all of Northern Ireland west of the Bann (over 60% of the territory of the province).

    In fact, NI west of the Bann has as much a right to secede from the UK as Northern Ireland had to break about from the rest of Ireland in the first place.

    Basically, who has a right to secede from what depends only on whose side one happens to be on.

  39. All these problems emanating from partioned countries, make a very strong case for strong borders.

  40. "Taiwan was only very briefly a part of Imperial China (from 1887 until 1895). Before that time, it was a loose-lying area, not ruled by anyone." ( from a Taiwan site )

    The Taiwanese who want "reunification" tend to be those who escaped to the island when Mao and his Communists took power.

    The rest tend to be hostile to the idea. Many actually like Japan better, and look back with some fondness to the time of Japanese occupation. (no joke)

  41. Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia and is central to its national identity. Albanians settled in Kosovo, outbred the indigenous Serbs and then took power backed by a blinkered western clique. What has happened in Kosovo is happening in many citise and districts in western Europe including London and especially Brussels.

  42. ‘fraid that’s the crux of it Allan. The numbers game.

    Islam is a diaspora with no central power base, and therefor relies on a high birthrate where-ever they pitch up.

  43. I’ve been following this thread closely to see who would come up with the best analogy of Kosovo to Ulster. Since no consensus has appeared, I’ll suggest my own alternatives loosely based on Allan@Oslo’s assessment. Please feel free to vote for either (or suggest your own):

    1. Ulster is an integral part of Ireland and is central to its national identity. Scots settled in Ulster, outmaneuvered the indigenous Irish and then took power backed by a blinkered western clique (namely Bill Clinton).

    2. Ulster is an integral part of Britain and is central to its national identity. Indigenous Irish stayed in Ulster, nearly outbred the Ulster-Scots and then shared power backed by a blinkered western clique (namely Bill Clinton).

  44. Did they just discover oil in Kosovo or have they moved it so that it can be used as transit for some pipeline?

    The oil or gas doesnt even have to go directly through kosovo for this to be about energy security.

    Perhaps more time should have been taken in concocting a conspiracy theory. This does not pass any real world "what if" test.

    im in very good company though.

    http://tinyurl.com/2tnpcx

    Totally agree with that Tripper. Energy supply is a significant factor in who was quick to endorse this. Not th eonly factor but one of them for sure.

    certainly not the only factor, and i also shouldnt have said "all about russia". it clearly isnt, as i said before that statement. infact the russian side of it may be far more convoluted than i previously understood it to be.

  45. PS

    Basically, who has a right to secede from what depends only on whose side one happens to be on.

    nail on the head Noel.

    Contrast Britians reaction to Rhodesias declaration in 1965 and Sundays declaration from Kosovo.

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