22 2 mins 9 yrs

I wonder do the majority of my fellow British citizens prefer the captivity of the EU to the freedom of their own sovereignty?

British business today throws its weight behind an in-out referendum on Europe and warns ‘the status quo is not an option’. A survey of nearly 4,000 company bosses in the UK shows more than three-quarters back giving the public a say on membership of the European Union. It also reveals that British business is becoming more Eurosceptic with growing support for quitting the EU altogether or withdrawing and securing new trade agreements. However, the majority – or 61.4 per cent of those asked in the British Chambers of Commerce poll – wants Britain to remain in the EU with powers transferred from Brussels to Westminster.

The last line is amusing! They want to stay IN the EU but they want powers transferred back to Westminster!!!! Are they clinically insane? The POINT of the EU “project” is to hollow out the very idea of the Nation State with its own powers and to centralise all effective decision making in Brussels. Those “company bosses” who say these things remarkably uninformed as to the precise nature of the EU.

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22 thoughts on “CAPTIVITY OR FREEDOM?

  1. I said a few days ago that the human condition is at the heart of politics, and so it is.
    Politics is the national version of interpersonal relationships.
    We want to belong because that’s how humans are, so we look for gangs or clubs to join.
    Fear is a big part of why we want to belong. On our own, our power and influence is limited. joined with others of like mind we feel safer and stronger.
    As our nation’s self belief and courage has diminished, we sought safety and comfort by aligning ourselves with Europe. That way we don’t have to be the odd nation out, we can be “one of the gang”.

    And where has this led us? Not to economic prosperity but to a stagnating economic bloc in which bureaucracy not growth is important. Regulation and H&S, not dynamism and enterprise counts. We are giving up our national heritage in return for safety and conformity.
    The EU would have been a good idea had it been allowed to develop organically and naturally.
    Instead the politicians came up with something that was essentially designed by politicians and for politicians.

    That’s why we have to get out, and that’s why as long as I am able I shall support and work for UKIP.

  2. what about people like me A8 there is a term we like to use it’s a bit crude but….

    “We are nation of Shit Hoarders, and Individualists” or one of my all time favorites from Groucho… “I wouldn’t want to belong to a club that would have someone like me as a member”

    It’s nice though to see the business community awakening to the nightmare of the communist bloc that England is part of. The Politburo in Brussels is no more efficient than the one that sat in the Kremlin

  3. Trollio,
    the EU is the USSR mark II. Very similar. Overall stagnating economies, employment falling through the floor, rules and edicts by the ton, and propaganda Goebbels himself would envy. 🙂

    “We are nation of Shit Hoarders, and Individualists”
    I don’t think Americans are any more individualistic than any other people. We all – well, apart from you – like to be liked and want to belong. Cultures change over time, and my country has changed and so has yours. Nothing we can do about it.

    The wife and I watched “The Secret Life of Walter Mitty” yesterday. Danny Kaye of course, a very clever and talented actor. But when you look at the cars and the clothes and the way people seemed to be towards each other, it was actually quite European. I liked that America.

  4. Actually Americans are more individuals that many others.

    There is an index for such things – Americans being much more individualistic than say Chinese or Japanese.

    Which is good and bad. It comes out in truly moronic ways on issues like health care and health insurance and the entire debate over Obamacare.

  5. ” Actually Americans are more individuals that many others. ”

    Is that a personal observation Phantom or a piece of academic research?

  6. Hofstede argued, for example, that cultures can be usefully distinguished according to how much they expect individuals to look after themselves. He called that measurement the “individualism-collectivism scale.” The country that scores highest on the individualism end of that scale is the United States. Not surprisingly, the United States is also the only industrialized country in the world that does not provide its citizens with universal health care. At the opposite end of the scale is Guatemala.


    From a review of the book ” Outliers “, which is recommended.

  7. Agit

    It is well noted.

    Again, being highly individualistic is not necessarily any praise in my book. We are not isolated atoms in space.

  8. Very interesting Phantom. I may get that book through Amazon. On a similar vein a friend of mine once loaned me a book (American) whose premise was that many of the activists and champions of causes or grievances, are actually using these movements as an outlet for their own personal hangups.
    It is in fact a form of transference and explains why some of these activists are so passionate about their cause.
    I just can’t remember what it was called..
    Does it ring any bells?

  9. The EU isn’t about destroying individualism,the EU is considered to be the united states of Europe. Britain won’t leave the EU, it needs it and would be on its own outside a bigger trading block. Leaving the EU would effectively finish Britain off .


    troll do you ever read roy hanlon, he’s in the US and writes for a news paper here. Later on I’d like to scan you up a piece by him about inequality in the US… it’s very good. I think it could change your mind re obamacare…:)

  10. The book has very interesting commentary on the differences among cultures, and how luck plays a part in the success of even the greatest ( Jobs, Gates, the Beatles are mentioned ) and why a disproportionate number of NHL and other hockey players have birthdays in the first quarter of the year while relatively few have birthdays in the fourth quarter.

    Also, the 10,000 hour rule.

  11. ” The EU isn’t about destroying individualism,the EU is considered to be the united states of Europe. Britain won’t leave the EU, it needs it and would be on its own outside a bigger trading block. Leaving the EU would effectively finish Britain off ”

    I think the EU will finish Britain off!
    As I see it the problem with the EU is that you have a core group of old established European countries with very different economies surrounded by satellite, poorer nations that for the most part were under the old USSR and also have lots of problems.
    The EU lacks convincing leadership because it has been politically forced into a semblance of unity, so really it is the bureaucrats who run the show.

    America is a quite different animal formed from colonies that were in the main seeking freedom and opportunity. The individual states were far more dynamic and flexible and there’s just no way Europe can do the same thing.

  12. Americans are strongly socialist.

    In general, they want the gummint to own the roads, collect the rubbish, keep the lights on, provide medi-things and social secrity, ‘protect’ the environment, plan towns, police the streets, protect them from bogeymen, minutely regulate every industry and every service, run transport, collectivise space exploration, they worship the military (the most socialist of all enterprises) and to loot everyone to do it.

    Any combination of these makes you a socialist. If you believe in every one of them you’re a damned commie.

    A part of the country has all the liberty talk, but Americans demonstrate how socialist they are because they keep on electing tribunes to minutely regulate every part of their lives.

  13. Any combination of these makes you a socialist.

    Of course that is true. Nearly everyone on earth, including nearly all here including David, Troll, mahons, Daphne, Patty, Agit8ed, myself are socialist.

    And the smartest of us are capitalists as well. Since capitalism is the best engine of creativity and prosperity.

    You take what you need from Column A and some from Column B, and if you play it right you wind up with the USA or Germany or Korea or Singapore.

  14. Good points Phantom in your 5:07.

    There are elements of both philosophies that have merit. We want the opportunity to better ourselves or build a business, but most of us are against excessive wealth or greed.
    We want everyone in our society to be rewarded fairly for the work that they do, whether in the private or the public sector. And we are against the rich bending tax rules so that they keep more of their wealth, whilst the less well paid end up giving proportionately more of their income.

    That is fairness, that is equality. That could/should work whereas Pete’s libertarianism remains essentially an elitist pipe dream. 😉

  15. Agit8ed –

    My creed would smash the power of the State to give advantages to the rich and politically connected where, say, tax is concerned. In my creed, the less wealthy have the same absolute right to the fruits of their labour as anyone else.

    How you imagine it’s an elitist pipe dream is beyond me.

  16. Pete,
    Given the complexity of modern societies you would still need regulation and policing for food production drugs and research and social order.
    At its best the State gives us the most impartial and fair and accountable agencies in order to achieve this.

    Follow your route and it will inevitably lead to either a single dictatorship or a group of elitists controlling everything without accountability.

  17. Agit8ed –

    Demonstrable rubbish of course.

    For example, Obama signed a bill giving the agri giant Monsanto immunity from prosecution where GM seeds is concerned. Now, even where GM crops had been approved and planted illegally, the Monsanto Protection Act prevents courts from intervening.

    How is this impartial, fair and good regulation for the consumer?

    It isn’t of course. Now stop hopping about and stick with tax. It State power which enables the wealthy and plitically connected to write the tax codes which enables them to pay less tax than the less wealthy. This is the elitist pipe dream turned into reality.

    Wherever you look, in all policy areas, Sate power is deployed against everyone else by the Ruling Elite. This is the nature of the State. It is the one continuous thread which unites all threads. Without the State, elites would have to comete like everyone else instead of relying on regulatory capture for advantage. It is where markets have been most free, and regulation most light, that the mass of the people have benefited the most. This is demonstrably true.

    Unplug your mind from the court propagada.

  18. I said “at its best” and the sad fact is that governments on both sides of the Atlantic are out of control and way too big. The people need to wrest back control and get the balance right, but Pete this is the way it always goes. The pendulum swings back and forth whatever system is being used, and it would be exactly the same if your ideas were ever applied.

  19. Pete 802

    You would allow both the Koch Brothers and the unemployed to pay zero tax. Why that is some philosophy.

  20. Phantom –

    You’d even tax the unemployed? Well they already are looted, via many taxes. You must be happy.

    My philosophy: yep, no looting. I don’t have a proprietory claim on anyone’s property. No-one else is my slave, not even 20 or 30 or 40% of them. That is my philosophy.

    Of course if I were in power there’d soon be so little State power that the Kochs of the world wouldn’t bother trying to buy power. It’s not the money that causes the corruption, it’s the awesome State power that the money chases.

    Have fun on the PA plantation. Work hard for massa.

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