106 3 mins 11 yrs

Well it appears that the coronation of Mitt Romney has been deferred as the people in South Carolina gave Mr Establishment a comprehensive two thumbs way down. I’ve read quite a lot of commentary on the result but this from the Corner over at National Review seemed amongst the more sensible;

Newt’s greatest contribution to the race has been to demonstrate that the style of political argument that Chris Christie and Paul Ryan debuted in the last couple of years actually is not a luxury but a necessity to win hearts and minds in the GOP. The 2012 election will not be won because of Mitt Romney’s tax returns or his years at Bain, or because of Newt’s past marriages or the payments from Freddie.

2012 will be decided on whether the American people rouse themselves as they did in 2010, and having roused themselves again, are less afraid of the decline staring them in the face than they are of the painful but promising future and the GOP nominee who is promising to lead them to it by first returning to the founding principles of the country.

South Carolina has helped both Gingrich and Romney, and the Florida contest in ten days will almost certainly decide the nominee. A brokered convention? When much of the primary angst has been over the power of elites to ignore the people as was done with Obamacare and arrange secret deals of the sort Ron Paul says is the daily fare at the Fed? It will be Mitt or Newt or Rick. That is the choice now.  There’s no new nominee on a white horse. There isn’t even a horse. There is a long process that pushes the nominees and sharpens their abilities while exposing the strengths and weaknesses of their staffs and consultants. Governor Palin was talking from experience when she all but said there is a lot of strength to be gained from going through the fire.

It must also be noted Governor Palin urged people to vote for Newt in SC. Is there a Palin factor in play that the MSM studiously ignore?

I have to be honest and say that I like Santorum, admire Gingrich’s aggression, but find Romney superficial. With all due respect to Ron Paul, he is already a beaten docket. A battle for the nomination seems better than a coronation, don’t you think? Perhaps Romney has an inner steel that we have yet to see? Is Gingrich just bluster and hot air? Is Santorum unelectable? And at the end of the day, WHICH of them can beat Obama?

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106 thoughts on “CAROLINA ON MY MIND….

  1. South Carolina is a tough state for a Mormon (and a Yankee at that). Newt is a neighbor and actually should win in that region at the very least if he is to go all the way to the nomination. Palin’s bandwagon non-endorsement endorsement didn’t hurt, but I am not sure if it was more telling than the tie/loss in Iowa.

    Ron Paul demonstrated where he will come out in any of the real primaries (hovering around 10-15%).

    So, in a year when they could use a consensus candidate and not spend money and capital fighting each other the Republicans seemed poised to do just that. We may have an old fashioned down to the wire primary fight on deck.

  2. this race was destined to be a knuckle bruiser since day one, I told you that. So far we have something we have never seen, a different candidate has won each of the first 3.

    What we are witnessing is a forging or a bearing of inner steel, the fight against Obama and the MSM is gonna be hot as hell, all past sins from all candidates can and will be forgiven, it’s all about being punched and punching back.

    We will not have a punching bag for a candidate, we want the person who will not only walk on the hot coals, but who will turn around and piss on them after he crosses over them.

    That’s whats being decided, and shown.

  3. What a load of baloney!
    Are we talking about issues that affect the general health and prosperity of your country, or about a Presidential hopeful’s attempt to win a campaign or at least stay afloat?
    If what gets a man into the White House is not his nobility of purpose, but rather his ability to con the public by promising all kinds of goodies, whilst trashing and digging dirt on the opposition;
    why not just choose the most conniving and ruthless and successful guy you can find, and save yourselves a heap of money?

  4. As has been noted..there are 2, 722,222 registered voters in South Carolina.
    and only 245,000 or so voted for Gingrich – less than 10 percent of the voters

    South Carolina is one of the weird states that allows registered Democrats to vote in Republican primaries

    The win yesterday means something but it is well short of a mandate from the SC voters

  5. What this win means is that Republicans/Conservatives do not want to “go along to get along” anymore.

    If America is going to go down, she’s not going down without a fight from the Right.

    Now, Obama and the Left will lie and cheat and surely steal the vote if they can – but the Republicans/Conservatives are going to fight every inch of the way.

    As for the apathetic (and pathetic) “independent” – as always, he/she will stick a finger in the wind and vote for the perceived stronger horse.

  6. The new media meme will be Newt = angry. To which I say, “so what?” Why, here is the new meme, already, fresh off the presses from the Left wing website “Politico”:

    “Newt Gingrich is the angriest man in America. Mitt Romney will tell you that Barack Obama is a “nice guy” but that he is “in over his head.” Newt Gingrich will tell you Barack Obama is “the most radical and most incompetent president in our lifetime!”

  7. True independents seek to think for themselves and will never be in lock step with either of the two filthy parties, or with any candidate.

  8. “True independents” sit on the political fence, watching Snookie and Boardwalk Empire, complaining that they don’t have enough info. yet to form an opinion.

    The squishy independent is afraid to think for himself/herself and is easily manipulated by the media — as we witnessed with the election of Barack Obama in 2008.

  9. Patty
    I suppose the point I am trying to get across here is that on one level everyone on ATW is talking about what America is, what America needs and why we need to change the current situation.
    Then we get into the beginnings of an election campaign. The prospective candidates come trotting out. There are ribbons, there are fancy hats and patriotic music; and suddenly those same men who were discussing the dire state of America ad its decline are suddenly acting like a bunch of giggling girls putting on their first “rah rah” skirts.
    Gone are all the high minded principles of morality and justice, because Hey! candidates have been chosen and backed, and all I want to see is my chosen candidate win and shaft all those other candidates!”

    Then will come the euphoria, the Honeymoon and the cold light of day will set in and folks will say,
    “WHY did I allow myself to actually VOTE for this turkey??”

  10. Yep

    The conservative voters of SC just voted for a Freddie Mac lobbyist, because he bashed a few reporters around, and they think that makes him one of the finest men who ever lived.

    Note how Newt made repeated references to the evil Washington ( where he’s spent his adult life, as legislator than as lobbyist ) and New York, where the elites and all evil are supposed to reside.

    The Republican electorate is a seething pack of idiocy.

  11. God, what a sickly, putrid political line-up.

    Even Four Horsemen of Notre Dame** look better than the Four Asses of Republican Party!

    **The backfield of Notre Dame’s 1924 football team coached by Knute Rockne (Quarterback Harry Stuhldreher, left halfback Jim Crowley, right halfback Don Miller, and fullback Elmer Layden) were given this nome de guerre because of their heroic deeds on the field.

  12. You are missing the meat, the passion, the total rejection of the Establishment that Newt now represents – that galvanizes the America people behind him – despite his adultery scandals, his flirtations with global warming etc.

    People are fed up to the teeth with the MSM, with the Liberal Establishment and with the Republican Establishment in Washington DC – fed up to the teeth with Elites who believe they know better – telling them what to do and think, while America circles the drain.

    Trump talked back to the Elite MSM and people roared back their approval. Rubio, Christie, Cain, Palin, Alan West – everytime they talk back and speak some truth, people listening are ecstatic.

    Newt’s new-found political power is derived from a passionate frustration felt by the American people – we are lied to, manipulated and our so-called leaders are just “going along to get along”
    Newt stands up for America, for American values, for AMerica’s history, for COnservatism etc.

  13. Exactly so Phantom.
    But it’s no different over here, but you Yanks are more vital to the continued existence of freedom than we Brits. We’ve already been sold down the river.
    They’re still working on you guys…. 😉

  14. Eddie – Churchhill wasn’t universally loved, you know – but damn he did tell it like it was and lead his nation to successful victory, didn’t he?

    For anyone paying attention, the jaded laughter at the Republican line-up, the cynical dismissal of the 3 men left standing – rings hollow and false.

  15. his adultery scandals, his flirtations with global warming, his rants against capitalism, his long time support for Individual Mandate, his history has a Freddie Mac lobbyist, his erratic reign as Speaker of the House, etc.

    If you speak well and stomp your feet in an angry fashion, you win Republican primaries no matter what your positions are, and no matter what your history has been.

    Anger trumps everything.

  16. You’re missing the point, Phantom.

    It’s not the anger. Nor is it racism. It’s certainly not Romney’s Mormonism, nor Gingrich’s new-found Catholicism. Nor is it sound bites or blind sheeple following the recommendations of Rush or Levin. (they haven’t made any, btw)

    Try real, real hard, Phantom.

    Penetrate the fog of idiocy that HuffPo and Media Matters seems to exercise on your brain and try to perceive why, why, why…did a fat has-been like Newt Gingrich light up the crowd, and excite the Republican base – and is still lighting up the crowd, and exciting the voter.

    Can you figure it out?

  17. Aww heck, Phantom…I know you can’t figure it out. Your head is too far up the Media Matter crowd. Here, Gingrich spells it out:

    “People completely misunderstand what’s going on. It’s not that I am a good debater; it is that I articulate the deepest-felt values of the American people,” Gingrich said.

    Magic winning formula: Articulate deep-felt values of American people.

  18. The Republican base is a mob of angry imbeciles who don’t think too straight.

    They get fired up by a guy whose opportunistic anticapitalism and past support of Individual Mandate would make him at home as a lobbyist for the the Democratic National Committee.

    He’s a fake, every bit as much as y’all think Romney is. Which is why very many Republicans who served with him have no respect for his tenure as Speaker and don’t support him now.

    He will say anything to get elected.

    But he does debate well. Gotta give him that.

  19. Agit8ed, on January 22nd, 2012 at 2:38 pm Said:

    What a load of baloney!
    Are we talking about issues that affect the general health and prosperity of your country, or about a Presidential hopeful’s attempt to win a campaign or at least stay afloat?
    If what gets a man into the White House is not his nobility of purpose, but rather his ability to con the public by promising all kinds of goodies, whilst trashing and digging dirt on the opposition;
    why not just choose the most conniving and ruthless and successful guy you can find, and save yourselves a heap of money?

    We did his name was Obama

  20. Phantom, on January 22nd, 2012 at 4:19 pm Said:

    True independents seek to think for themselves and will never be in lock step with either of the two filthy parties, or with any candidate.

    good god your drunk already… you really got to cut back on the booze

  21. Newt doesn’t have any deep felt values.

    He’s a crook and an opportunist.

    But he speaks well, so it’s OK

  22. Patty,
    “Magic winning formula: Articulate deep-felt values of American people.”

    That’s right, because deep down most Americans hanker after the dream that shaped their nation, and I actually do mean everybody. America was the Dream of a fair and just society, where any man or woman could realise their potential. And at back of it was the belief that there were consequences if they tried to cheat the system.
    But where the cynicism enters in is that Presidential candidates and their backers ytry to fool the people into believing that’s what’s on offer…

  23. Agitated: I think your cynicism is misplaced.

    Obama promised that we’d look more like a Socialist European state – and he has delivered on this promise.

    Bush promised a “Compassionate Conservatism” – and he delivered with his Big Govt. solutions to social problems like “No Child Left Behind” and his Prescription Drug program

    Sure, no politician is perfect and no promise is complete – but from where I sit, politicians are elected with mandates, and they deliver on them everyday.

  24. the last candidate to speak like gingrich and was hated by all sides like gingrich was Reagan, keep that in mind.

    Gingrich is not Reagan, but the same dynamics are at play, The Carter administration had brought the country to both economic and military colapse, it was the end of America.

    Reagan stomped the dirt and spoke plain conservative values, and whaddya know he had a landslide.

    Obama has destroyed both the economic and military superiority of the US, Newt is stomping on the soil, and spouting basic conservative facts.

    Campaigns are sideshows A8 money and bullshit ALWAYS rule the day in campaigns.

    Obama has been the worst President since Wilson, the US is in the worst depression in it’s history, no matter what phantom and the press says, there are 40 million people either unemployed or underemployed, The Middle East is is quickly turning into a religious version of 1930s Germany, and the EU is on the verge of civil war.

    The average american citizen sees what is going on, the choice is going to be simple for the US do we stay on our current course or do we turn the political and money changers tables over.

    The question is if Romney gets the nomination do the people believe he will have the backbone to flip the tables? Do the people believe if Newt gets the nomination will he flip the tables over? That’s what the Republican primary is about.

    The General election is do we follow Europe’s path or do we light a match and restart.

  25. “Magic winning formula: Articulate deep-felt values of American people.”

    As typified by the way the wrists are articulated when swinging a golf club. It is very important to pronate the wrist on the follow through….it is an important part of a winning formula.

    Well Obama does seem to spend more time on the golf course, than at his desk…

  26. So Obama’s mandate was what, exactly?
    Bush’s mandate was “Keep America Strong, Protect Her and Her interests, help out our buddies in Saudi Arabia”???

  27. The search for the perfect presidential candidate, – bears a striking resemblance to the search for a twenty five year old virgin!, – a rare, almost unique perfection…but is it really what you might want?…

    It is a fact that there is not a human being on this Earth, who, doesn’t have at least a toe or two of clay, if not a foot!

  28. Reagan never spoke against capitalism, and Newt recently did when it suited him.

    Reagan wasn’t a Freddie Mac lobbyist ( though he was a GE spokesman which is close )

    Reagan opposed government involvement in health care. Newt was a lot more flexible should we say ( and good for him )

    The US isn’t in any depression. If you don’t have any idea about what’s going on in the US, how are you qualified to speak on who should lead it?

  29. Perceptive stuff Troll.
    You know that there were many Englishmen who were terrified by Winston’s bellicose attitude and wanted him to make some kind of accommodation with Hitler’s Germany?
    (and most Germans were not Nazis, they were like you’n me, they just wanted to be left alone).
    America needs men of integrity and conviction to lead her and the free world.
    Ignore the blurb and concentrate on the small print!

  30. Newt is the establishment. From the 80’s. Voting for him makes as much sense as wearing a Flock of Seagulls haircut.

  31. Bush didn’t get his mandate until 9/12, Obama’s mandate has always been saving the country through soviet politics and economics.

    We got what both promised

  32. Ernest,
    “The search for the perfect presidential candidate, – bears a striking resemblance to the search for a twenty five year old virgin!, – a rare, almost unique perfection…but is it really what you might want?…”
    I’d like the opportunity to make up my mind… 😉

  33. Phantom Newt was NOT a lobbyist, you only hurt any point you make by continually repeating the lie.

    It’s time for you to sober up, You have a good job, there are 40 million Americans that don’t. Gas, Food, and Housing are not mirroring the great depression they have surpassed their numbers of the great depression. and not in a positive manner.

    You live in a bubble

  34. Freddie Mac wouldn’t have paid him ten cents to be a ” corporate historian” . He was a lobbyist and an influence peddler for hire. There are many ways to play that game, and he was one of the best.

    If you want to make the case that he wasn’t a lobbyist, send me a copy of the reports he gave to Freddie Mac.

    Economic activity is going up steadily, albeit slowly. That doesn’t happen in a depression.

  35. Zombies –

    My offer is still on the table.

    Fifty of your degrading Federal Reserve Notes says that if a non-Ron Paul Republican becomes the next Goldman Sachs man in the White House president, taxes will rise, annual deficits will rise and the structural debt will rise.

    Who is willing to put their money where their mouth is?

  36. From the always excellent Mish:

    “I will take flack for this but it’s all over for Ron Paul. He finished a disappointing 4th. I do not like the news but I cannot ignore it. This will not stop me one bit from pointing out the flaws of Gingrich, the flaws of Romney, and the flaws of the Republican and Democratic parties in general. Indeed I hope and expect Ron Paul to carry his message to the end in an attempt to change the Republican platform.

    The Republican party needs a new torch bearer. New Jersey governor Chris Christie walked away from the opportunity. Christie was not the perfect candidate, rather he was an acceptable candidate. Nonetheless, one thing is certain. Neither Gingrich nor Romney is the future of the Republican party. Both are failed politicians of the failed past.

    A new torch bearer will not come from the existing Republican establishment. My eyes turn towards Rand Paul.”

  37. Newt didn’t just lobby for Freddie Mac

    He lobbied for the drug companies also

    When Newt Gingrich says he never lobbied, he’s not telling the truth.

    When he was a paid consultant for the drug-industry’s lobby group, Gingrich worked hard to persuade Republican congressmen to vote for the Medicare drug subsidy that the industry favored. To deny Gingrich was a lobbyist requires an Obama-like word parsing over who is and who isn’t a lobbyist.

    Ron Paul didn’t disappoint. He was never in it. Most people will never buy what he’s selling. He can only do well in caucus states, where the will of the average voter is sharply diminished, and where a small but motivated group has exaggerated power. Look for him to do well in Nevada, accordingly. So what.

  38. hey phantom a simple question. If you have a dollar and lose 90 cents, you have a dime right? Now if you get a quarter your value has risen to 35cents, it went up ? Now tell me are still however a hell of a lot worse off than if you had the dollar?

    When you get back above the dollar then you have growth. Until then your in a depression, ass

  39. I suppose there’s a point in there somewhere. But economic activity is increasing at a time of low inflation. ( despite the predictions of the Ron Paul guys that there would be hyperinflation )

    The problems we have go much further than monetary policy or the debt, me bucko. They’re only part of it.

  40. Phantom

    The republicans will decide whether or not Obama runs against Mitt or Newt not you. I know that galls you, but oh well.

    You can regurgitate all the lefty talking points and positions you want, it means nothing. The people voting in the primaries know all the bad points even better than you can ever google up. They mean nothing.

    What is being watched, and being voted on is not political positions. What is being voted on is the upcoming fight, and who will last 18 rounds.

  41. your right you don’t get the point, go talk to one of the 40 million, but somehow I don’t think any are in your bubble, are they?

  42. Newt didn’t take money from the drug companies during the Medicare Prescription Drug debate? Was he a historian to Merck as well? Wow he must be one big expert on history.

    Poor Troll. He hates it when facts are presented to him.

  43. Phantom –

    From nine months ago, while the economic PhD experts predicted a double dip recession for the second half of 2011, I predicted in here (a few times) that there would be no recession and that, in fact, the economy would grow.

    There is no recession and the economy is growing.

    I stated why, that Bernanke had ramped up the money supply. It came out at 15 per cent annualised in the end for 2011. He’s still printing and growth will continue, however prices will rise further. I suspect they’ll rise more strongly through the year.

    Of course though, it’s an artificial, inflationary boost to an economy which is crumbling in real terms with debts rising all the time. When Bernanke turns off the tap the next bust will arive.

    Have no fear, I will tell you when it’s about to happen.

  44. no recession or depression, here are some facts for both of you

    New York, Three million people now count on food stamps to survive in the state. That’s an 11 percent increase from 2009 and a 65 percent spike from five years ago.

  45. I know we have a large, long lasting unemployment problem. But a lot of that is structural.

    Unemployment can come alongside a depression, but it can also come when economic activity is increasing.

    A lot of the jobs that went overseas are very unlikely to come back

    Read Why America Lost Out on Iphone work. Read it closely.

    The computer you write on was likely made in China by workers who live in dormitories. They work very hard and they earn a lot less than the average American or British worker.

    And they don’t call in sick when its the first day of hunting season or when their dog has a tummy ache.

    In a world of free trade, how do you compete against that? Since free trade is always good. Right?

    Even if you tripled the salary of those Chinese workers, the Foxconn plants would be vastly more efficient that anything you will now see in America.

    Read that article and get back to me. Cheers, heading out.

  46. The fact of Gingrich being proclaimed as the winner i.e. having the most votes counted (rembering Stalin’s quip about who counts the votes) doesn’t quite gel with him having to cancel a campaign appearance because there were too few voters interested:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/presidentelect/ci_19782823

    CHARLESTON, S.C.—Newt Gingrich has cancelled a campaign appearance in South Carolina because of poor attendance.
    The Republican presidential candidate was scheduled to speak to the Southern Republican Leadership on Friday. But a campaign spokesman told reporters that he would no longer be appearing due to poor attendance. –

    At the same time (as reported on RP’s campaign website (the photos back the claim), 2012 Republican Presidential candidate Ron Paul attracted more than 1,000 supporters in Charleston today, demonstrating his strong support among younger voters and his overall popularity.

  47. Phantom –

    I’ve said the president is an idiot. He proved it at that dinner table.

    The US did not lose out on iPhone work. It gains from iPhones being manufactured where it’s best to manufacture them. It’s called comparative advantage.

    Obama demonstrated he’s an economic dunce.

  48. Pete

    I know the theories, and the benefits of getting low cost stuff.

    There are benefits from having a f** job too.

    And when you have the unrestricted free trade with a very low cost country ( that has workers who may be better, more dependable than your own ) there will be a death spiral for wages over time. The Chinese wages will go up a lot ( which is happening – and which they deserve) and our wages will go down.

    This is what happens. This rising tide will see some boats rise, and some go under.

  49. Obama demonstrated he’s an economic dunce. but so is Phantom. nah I take that back, he’s just a NYr living in a delusional bubble

  50. Troll

    You moron, I’m partially taking your side, if you could think for the first time in your life.

    Pete won’t get out of his Austrian textbook and can never concede that there is any downside to free trade. Put him to the side and leave him there. He can never concede even a minor point, he thinks it is all black and white, when few things in life really are.

    Troll

    Tell me exactly what it would take to move the next Ipad factory to central Pennsylvania. The things that if they were done would make it more profitable for Apple / Foxconn to shift the production site to PA. Because until you can clearly show this to be the case, those jobs are staying in China.

  51. Phantom: you talk like a liberal (except for the military stuff). see youtube above to see yourself.

  52. This isn’t a liberal / conservative issue

    You get the same question.

    Apple is a California company.

    What would it take to make California a great place to put the next Ipad factory?

    The Ron Paul guys don’t care about jobs, but I do. How do we best compete for those jobs?

  53. It’s pretty simple stuff, Phantom. Governor Perry travels around California, successfully enticing California employers away from California with his very, very simple message. Can you guess what it it??

  54. “Tell me exactly what it would take to move the next Ipad factory to central Pennsylvania. The things that if they were done would make it more profitable for Apple / Foxconn to shift the production site to PA. Because until you can clearly show this to be the case, those jobs are staying in China.”

    Phantom
    It would take a realisation that farming out the production of the genius of US products to cheap labour sites overseas is NOT in the long term interest of the United States of America…
    All it does is make a relatively few rich people even richer.

  55. Phantom –

    “Pete won’t get out of his Austrian textbook and can never concede that there is any downside to free trade.”

    You’re as dumb as your president. I’ve told you before that in economics there are no choices, only trade offs. Every decision, even if bringing advantages, has a trade off. What do you think this means?

    Yes, Apple could manufacture its products in the US, meaning you’d pay much, much more for them. Meaning you and everyone else would be poorer and would have less money to spend elsewhere, save or invest.

    Good grief, stop discussing economics man!

  56. Phantom,

    “The computer you write on was likely made in China by workers who live in dormitories. They work very hard and they earn a lot less than the average American or British worker.”

    The manufacturing process is a very small part of the value chain of an iPhone. This is evidenced by the gobs of cash Apple is sitting on, unlike its rivals such as Samsung. And that’s aside from Pete’s economic point.

    As for manufacturing jobs they are in decline everywhere, including China. it is not that they are not coming back to the USA, it’s that they’re not coming back, period. Much manufacturing is already done by machines and it’s not inconceivable that one day in the future manufacturing will be about as labour intensive as printing a document. You may as well ask what it would take to get the people out in the fields again now that we have combine harvesters. Should we be looking to get those jobs back too?

    Really jobs are a cost not a benefit – which is certainly true for a company and must be true on some level for a country too. Needless unemployment is one thing, however if one day technology reaches the point where absolutely nobody needed to work at all should we regard that as a problem?

  57. Pete,
    Your refusal to pay your tv licence has addled your brain!
    Follow the logic.
    Designed in the USA
    Manufactured and marketed in the USA
    Result:
    Higher price but,
    More US employment
    More money for US workers to spend in their economy,
    Less civil unrest
    Lest social disintegration
    Reinforcing of worth of American society
    More unity.

  58. Frank,
    that is a story for another day.
    It may well be that if we survive long enough and remain recognisably human, machines will be making everything we need.
    However, never underestimate the ability of humans to screw things up. The nightmare scenario then might not be so much “The Rise of the Machines”, as
    “The Rise of the Amalgamated Machine Workers Union”

    “Sorry Sir, but our members all voted for oil changes and chip upgrades to be carried out from 10 ’til 4pm every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Have a nice day, now..”
    Course, if they were Irish robotic workers, it would probably be even worse..
    In the short to medium term it has to be better for more Americans to be making more things in America.
    Er, isn’t that how it started out?

  59. Agit8ed –

    Lower US employment.

    Forcing manufacturers to stay in the US (beside being an ultra-fascistic move which would doubtless foster corruption as politically connected firms pay politicians to deliver waivers) would increase costs, increase prices and make everyine in the US poorer.

    This would leave less capital to pay for jobs.

  60. http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-237-max-keiser/

    A headline discussed on Max Keiser (see 16.09 onwards) about 150 Chinese workers who threatened to commit suicide by jumping from the roof of their slave labour camp factory, said factory being run by Foxconn which produces iPhones. Apple has $80 billion cash on its balance sheets so is well able to improve the conditions of its serfs.

  61. Garbage Pete!
    The US did not become the most powerful economy in the world by rushing to farm out industrial innovation overseas as soon as they designed it.
    Economic power resides with the economies who produce the goods, not those who sell them..
    Which is perhaps why China is flexing her economic muscles, Russia never could, and we Brits are feebly waving in the air treaties we’ve signed up to, but have pretty much bugger all to back it up with militarily…

  62. Why Apple makes iPhones in China, and why America is screwed…

    http://read.bi/x8q7mj

    Just one example among many, but one that anyone can understand, of course, whether hey accept it is another matter…

  63. In the long term low skilled manufacturing jobs will drift to poorer countries or be replaced by machines.

    I don’t think anything can be done about it, and there are enormous benefits BUT there is a problem of what to do with people who are left behind. Especially in the transition period where people who have worked in manufacturing all their lives suddenly discover that there are no more jobs in that sector.

    I don’t know what the answer is.

  64. I commented on something similar earlier on David’s –

    “GREED THE CREED THAT CANNOT BE BANNED!” thread.

    Judging by the comments thereon, I suppose it was too long for most tastes, – ho hum!

  65. Great link Ernest, and a great refutation of Pet’s assertion that in the current model everybody wins.
    The fact is that China is a totalitarian regime, different only in name from Mao Tse Tung’s China. They won’t hesitate to use ultimate force to control their own population, deny basic human rights and crush any opposition.

    In the meantime, the West (US in this case) has given away all its industrial innovation, all its socio-economic cohesiveness in the search for ever bigger profits.
    All it has left is a huge military complex and MSM industry with serious limitations.

  66. Ross,
    Ultimately it has to be better to have an economy which produces the goods its society needs and finds markets for export.
    I believe that as animals human beings function best as a unified group with specified roles and responsibilities. Industrialisation has enabled us to sustain bigger populations, but the price has been that globally we are consuming more and more resources and polluting/ increasing pressure on more and more of our life support systems, such as air, water and arable land.

  67. Agit8ed –

    You believe in a fallacy, that being that ‘economies’ are in competition. This is mercanitilist nonsense which was debunked 200 years ago.

    Let me be clear: the US is not in economic competition with China. One reason why governments intervene and distort economies is because it’s a widespread fallacy that ‘their’ economy is in competition with others.

    When you understand the principle of comparative advantage you know that a country that “wins” an advantage in one industry necessarily “loses” an advantage in other industries.

    To understand comparative advantage, therefore, is to understand that economies (unlike firms in the same industry) don’t compete with one another. To understand comparative advantage is also to understand that, with free trade, a comparative disadvantage at producing, say, iPhones is in no way a disadvantage at consuming iPhones. It’s quite the opposite.

  68. Agit8ed –

    And just to be clear on your: “The US did not become the most powerful economy in the world by rushing to farm out industrial innovation overseas as soon as they designed it.”

    That’s quite correct. It became economically powerful by doing what it could best do, whatever that was. There’s nothing else to it.

  69. Ultimately it has to be better to have an economy which produces the goods its society needs and finds markets for export.

    Do you think then that it would better if we communicating via computers produced in the UK costing around £1000 more and using a UK based hosting site that costs £10 a month more etc?

    The dream of self sufficiency leads to stagnation fairly promptly in my view.

  70. Ross –

    Indeed.

    The Kims of North Korea have long tried to make North Korea self-sufficient.

    I’m not yet convinced that it’s a superior way.

  71. Oh!
    Oh!Ohh!!
    Where did I ever say I believed economies are in competition?
    Ideologies are in competition,
    Fascist and Communist regimes are in competition.

    Have you read EF Schumaker’s “Small is Beautiful”?
    How do you think countries survived before the present global economic model developed?
    They got by.
    Some got by pretty well, some struggled.
    You can blow the Comparative Advantage principle out your Paramo drip dry trousers!

    Social happiness is dependent on an individual’s sense of worth and place.
    NOT the level of state handouts funded by profits made by the overseas farming out of industry.

  72. Anyway, back to which socialist whore Republican zombies will be duped into backing:

    Riding the momentum of his South Carolina win on Saturday, Newt Gingrich said Sunday he planned a week of big speeches offering “big solutions for a big country.

    Yep, that’s what made America great, big government solutions. They’ll love it it Newt, mak’em as big as you can. The bigger the better. Republicans know that freedom means nothing if it ain’t propelled by big government solutions.

    “I’ll be at the space coast in Florida this week giving a speech — a visionary speech — on the United States going back into space in the John F. Kennedy tradition,” the former House Speaker said on C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal.”

    Visionary! That’s the Victory Express to Washington booked. If anything will have the drones wooping and hollering it’s resurrecting the communist space programmes which helped bankrupt America in the first place.

  73. Pete

    I know that the things would cost more. But the cost of an IPad is not the only thing to think about. A cheap products Walmart model can lead to a world where everything is cheap but few have jobs either. I favor trade, but I realize that cheap stuff is not the only good thing in this world. There are many more social and other factors to consider.

    You need to think outside the box once in a while. We are not economic animals only. The Austrians and the Communists make the same huge error, which is why those systems never work in the real world.

    Ross

    True, but we’d all have been better off if we could make tha transition from manufacturing a slow one, as the Gemans have done. They have been very wise in their policies.

    Troll, Patty

    Cat got your tongue? Tell me what need to be done in order to win an IPad factory for the US? You do a lot of talk about jobs. Well how do we get these jobs? Is it possible?

  74. Pete,
    You truly are an anomaly who begrudges paying his tv licence whilst parading your knowledge and approval of certain economic models which leave out the value and dignity of the individual and instead concentrates on the economies of scale and enhanced profits.
    I’ll ask you again. How was America able to achieve economic dominance and not only come to the rescue of the free world, but to sustain that freedom pretty much single handedly?
    It wasn’t because their warships and aeroplanes were being built under licence abroad, but because they were being built IN the US.
    Same goes incidentally, for their space programme…

    You bring economic production back, employment goes up, prices for some goods go up.
    BUT the trade offs are that you have a motivated, more productive workforce, you diminish social dysfunction, and you unify your nation.
    And it doesn’t have to result in Facism.

  75. “Cat got your tongue? Tell me what need to be done in order to win an IPad factory for the US? You do a lot of talk about jobs. Well how do we get these jobs? Is it possible?”

    You’re way behind Phantom!
    We’re onto Irish girls on YouTube now..

  76. The true believers cannot help with real world solutions

    The Iron Laws of Bullshit must always prevail, even retroactively

  77. Agit8ed –

    “You truly are an anomaly who begrudges paying his tv licence whilst parading your knowledge and approval of certain economic models which leave out the value and dignity of the individual and instead concentrates on the economies of scale and enhanced profits.”

    I don’t advocate any economic ‘models’. They are bunk. There is no value or dignity to account for or leave out. (Real) economics simply describes what will will happen when people make choices. You can wish it is different, but you are wishing against reality.

  78. Phantom,
    I would prefer to see a buoyant US economy where expectations are scaled down, cloth cut according to pockets, and citizens feeling proud and valued, than an integrated economic system which picks and chooses the country they will exploit to make their profits,,,

  79. Tell me exactly what it would take to move the next Ipad factory to central Pennsylvania. The things that if they were done would make it more profitable for Apple / Foxconn to shift the production site to PA. Because until you can clearly show this to be the case, those jobs are staying in China.

    quite simple really, release Pennsylvania from the grip of the Unions (fat chance) zero out both Federal and state corporate taxes (fat chance) and it would be more than profitable.

    Pennsylvania is a textbook case of what happens with unions and over taxation. It was one of the first states destroyed economically by Unions and taxation. Steel was once made here 100s of tons a day. The Unions drove them out of business, that and the high state taxes.

    There is only one koke plant left in Pa, and the EPA has just tried to shut that one down. They placed an air quality meter in the plants parking lot 100ft from the plants exhaust system. This meter reads above safety air quality guide lines and the EPA is trying to shut it down.

    Now mind you meters all over the state even those as close as a mile to the plant show Pa’s air quality to be the best it has ever been since records have been kept, yet due to this strategically placed meter the EPA wants to close the last steel plant in the state.

  80. getting jobs back into the states is quite easy, kill all the lawyers, union members and environmentalists, add to that a nice dash of bureaucrats, and business will boom.

    Now since we can’t kill the majority of the Democrat party we need to do the next best thing. Take away their power.

    There are 200 years worth of oil right now, and that’s without importing a drop, there are 300 years of coal, an 250 of natural gas. That’s how much known supply that exists inside the nation. The U.S. just needs to allow it to be used.

    Toyota makes a tremendous profit off it’s American plants, why? Simple they are all in right to work states.

    Just the opening up of our natural reserves and cutting what is the highest corporate tax rate in the world to the lowest, would cause a hundred years of unemployment at a 4% max, instead of the close to 20 that it is now.

  81. Troll

    You can do all those things and you still won’t get an IPad plant

    Your ( our ) workforce would never agree to live in dormitories and they might want to join unions and in China these issues do not exist.

    And I’d like to see a comparison of the absenteeism rates in the two countries.

    If you an Apple where would you want your next factory to be built?

  82. Very pertinent replies Agi!

    In Pete’s case I see his philosophy as introspective and basically quite selfish, eventually leading to a global govement, but with plenty of poverty and suffering on the way.

    Likewise with Phantom, perhaps a little less selfish – only with America sitting in the Chairman of the Board’s seat. and lots of big bangs on the way! 🙂

  83. Agit8ed –

    Profit is how we measure if capital is being deployed effectively.

    Economics is (morally) value-free. You may as well say that physics must account for the dignity of man. All (real) economics can do, and achieves, is to describe the consequences of our actions. I do not say that we will become poorer if manufacturers relocate back from Asia because I want that to happen, I say that because it will happen.

    Yes, some people find work for a less competitive (say) Apple in California, but there are other consequences: the Chinese who choose to work for Apple will lose their jobs; Apple will become less competitive and will sell fewer products; some current American employees of Apple will lose their jobs; shareholders will lose wealth as a result; Apple will become less innovative, etc etc.

    Real economics does not advocate for any particular policies, it simply describes all of the consequences of such decisions.

  84. There are 200 years worth of oil right now, and that’s without importing a drop

    Rubbish. You are making up facts again. It’s more like 11 years:

    “proven oil reserves were 21 billion barrels (3.3×109 m3) in 2006 according to the Energy Information Administration.[3] This represents a decline of 46%, or 18 billion barrels (2.9×109 m3) from 39 billion barrels (6.2×109 m3) in 1970. U.S. crude production peaked in 1970 at 9.6 million barrels per day (1.53×106 m3/d), after the supergiant Prudhoe Bay field was found in Alaska. It has declined 47% to 5.1 million barrels per day (810×103 m3/d) by 2006.[4] United States crude oil production has been declining since reaching a smaller secondary production peak in 1988 (caused by Alaskan production). Total production of crude oil from 1970 through 2006 was 102 billion barrels (16.2×109 m3), or roughly five and a half times the decline in proved reserves.[5]

    The reserves-to-production ratio (R/P) equaled 11.26 years in 2007. The ratio was 11.08 years in 1970. It hit a trough of 8.49 years in 1986 as oil pumped through the Alaska pipeline began to peak.[5]

  85. Ernest Young –

    Keen minds will notice that I do not advocate for Apple to relocate or stay where it is. I simply describe what will happen if it did close its Asian plants and take them to the US. There is no selfish about it. I’m simply describing what the consequences are.

  86. If Pete’s views were selfish that would be fine. But he is just giving the amoral views of a dispassionate accountant without any loyalties to any person or nation. It’s beyond selfish, it’s disinterested.

    Corporations are often – not always – like that , but those who run our countries should never have such a view. They should have the interest of their citizens in mind. As citizens, and not just in their capacity as ” consumers “.

  87. Phantom I worked for 16yrs in an industry that was destroyed by the Unions. USAIR went out of business because of the unions. It was bought up, and it fired a lot of managers that worked both with and against the Union. In the bankruptcies the Union workers went from 40 an hour down to twenty and had to pay one weeks worth of pay to keep their Cadillac health plan, a cost they never had before.

    I know thousands of workers that would prefer never to pay a single union due, yet if you want a job in Pa. you join the Union or you don’t work.

    Oh and if your an independent carpenter or plumber, they blow up your trucks and equipment.

    The Unions have paid millions of dollars to politicians to keep a right to work vote off the ballot.

    The Philadelphia Convention center has those toilets and Urinals that incinerate the waste yet construction of the building was stopped because of the plumbers union. Now the building has miles of plumbing, non attached to anything but it’s there.

  88. Yes the US unions bear huge blame for the deindustrialization of the country.

    Something that does not get the attention it deserves.

    Bad unions, bad management, bad policies. All are to blame.

  89. Phantom,

    “I know that the things would cost more. But the cost of an IPad is not the only thing to think about. ”

    This really misses the point of what lies behind Apple’s success – until very recently, nobody bought an Apple product because they were cheaper than the competition.

    It’s true that lately nobody can compete with Apple on price either (all of Apple’s competitors struggle to match the ipad’s spec and price point). But that’s not because Apple has its manufacturing in China (so does pretty much everyone else). Among other things it’s because Apple is a monopsonist.

  90. Peter your wrong, and delusional, but we’ve grown used to that. now go down your wiki page and read further.

    Hell The Bakken shale formation in North Dakota alone holds up to 167 billion barrels of oil. China is drilling off the coast of Florida with cuban permits, why? cause nothing is there?

    you want to cherry pick, well here from an unfriendly paper The NY Times

    Up and down the Americas, it is a similar story: a Chinese-built rig is preparing to drill in Cuban waters; a Canadian official has suggested that unemployed Americans could move north to help fill tens of thousands of new jobs in Canada’s expanding oil sands; and one of the hemisphere’s hottest new oil pursuits is actually in the United States, at a shale formation in North Dakota’s prairie that is producing 400,000 barrels of oil a day and is part of a broader shift that could ease American dependence on Middle Eastern oil.

    For the first time in decades, the emerging prize of global energy may be the Americas, where Western oil companies are refocusing their gaze in a rush to explore clusters of coveted oil fields.

    “This is an historic shift that’s occurring, recalling the time before World War II when the U.S. and its neighbors in the hemisphere were the world’s main source of oil,” said Daniel Yergin, an American oil historian. “To some degree, we’re going to see a new rebalancing, with the Western Hemisphere moving back to self-sufficiency.”

    The hemisphere’s oil boom is all the more remarkable given that two of its traditional energy powerhouses, Venezuela and Mexico, have largely been left out, held in check by entrenched resource nationalism. Venezuela is now considered to have bigger oil reserves than Saudi Arabia, putting it at the top of OPEC’s rankings. If it opened up more to foreign investment, it could tip the scales further in the hemisphere’s direction.

    then there is Rio Blanco

    in the small world of geologists, though, the region is well-known. In fact, you might even say it’s the single most important patch of undeveloped, unloved, and desolate looking land in America. But you’d never guess this particular corner of the Great American Desert may play an integral role in America’s strategic future just by looking at it. You’d never guess that the whole stretch of brown, red, and orange land contains enough recoverable oil and gas to make you forget about the Middle East for the rest of time.

    Estimated U.S. oil shale reserves total an astonishing 1.5 trillion barrels of oil – or more than five times the stated reserves of Saudi Arabia. This energy bounty is simply too large to ignore any longer, assuming that the reserves are economically viable.

    The Green River basin holds 1.3-2.00 Trillion barrels, 80% of the green river basin is federal land barred from development.

    No Peter your a wacko, not only do we have enough for us we have enough to export all the oil the EU needs. Did you know that last year the number one export Item from the U.S. was Oil.

    Stop sending green peace your money and give it your local animal shelter

  91. Troll

    Your comment above is unusual because it contains some information. But of couurse it is all about shale oil on which there is very little solid information about reserves, never mind the cost of getting the oil out. It used to be that it cost one barrel to get ten, now it’s up to about four to ten, and with shale it could be eight or even nine. Never mind the environmental cost which I know that you as a truer blowhard Limbaa fan reject totally.

    Others here have commented on your inability to debate without name-calling and personal abuse. So anyway, get stuffed you ignorant jerk.

  92. Zombies –

    Pete Moore
    My offer is still on the table.

    Fifty of your degrading Federal Reserve Notes says that if a non-Ron Paul Republican becomes the next Goldman Sachs man in the White House president, taxes will rise, annual deficits will rise and the structural debt will rise.

    Who is willing to put their money where their mouth is?

    Of course taxes have to rise only an idiot would not understand that! The Republicans artificially suppressed the revenues of the government while increasing outlays resulting in huge deficits and then to add injury to insult they cut the american economy off at the knees.

    As a close and keen observer I can tell you the signs of an improving economy are there even if the statistics aren’t

    I may be the only person in the world who believes what the world really needs is a vast andd over reaching world war 3 to sort out the economic and over population problems. I just pray when it comes it doesn’t go nuclear.

  93. EP

    My corporate clients are cautious but optimistic. The darkest hour just before the dawn, etc.

    I’ll pass on the World War, if you don’t mind.

  94. Why it’s happening

    Because the emergency measures enacted in the light of the credit freeze and the housing and financial institution collapse, including TARP and the other interventions, did a whole lot more good than they did harm.

    I’m sure that we’ll all agree on that.

  95. Phantom

    My corporate clients are cautious but optimistic. The darkest hour just before the dawn, etc.

    I’ll pass on the World War, if you don’t mind

    I will pass on the world war as well as I am way too old and fat to have to go fight in it and that would just make me a chicken hawk like most republicans

    I just think the world is badly in need of a population re-alignment like Europe in the middle ages with “the Black Death”, it is widely argued that the Renaisance would not have been possible with out the mass die off of humans as a result of plague

    Economically, if done right war can be quite good for the world. Bush fucked up by not getting the population financially invested in the war and leaving them to sit and watch like ghoulish spectators.

  96. well as an ignorant jerk I do know that shale oil was not worth producing in the 70s at a cost of $45 a barrel, I also know that with todays new technology that cost per barrel is still $45, less than half the cost of what we are paying for imports.

    You are right though not only do I believe, but I know for a fact that the drilling is environmentally sound, we have proven it.

    The EPA has lost every case on the environmental impact studies, with vertical drilling, fracking, and the cooking process to extract the oil from the sands. The only thing the governmental enviro wackos can do is prevent permitting, and prevent ground usage, by dragging it out to a ten year process, and then delaying the permits for “an updated enviro study”

    we can be not only oil independent within 3 years, in 5 we could be exporting more than Saudi Arabia… all we have to do is drill

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