60 1 min 9 yrs

But what is especially important about this Thursday’s ceremony is the seat in question: the chair of St Augustine is the primatial seat of the Church of England – a primacy in the English church which has lasted since St Augustine came to preach in England at the orders of Pope St Gregory the Great in the 6th century, and has had significance almost from the beginning far beyond the shores of the British Isles.

So now you might understand why we have a bunch of black blokes cavorting up and down in the Cathedral: because they are from beyond the British shores; I think!

 

ajungle

Click to rate this post!
[Total: 0 Average: 0]

60 thoughts on “De Camp town races….Doo, Dah, Dey

  1. Mahons, the best thing to do with Cunningham’s posts is to ignore them.

    Very occasionally, when he writes about his grandchildren, you start to think that maybe there’s a decent human being behind all that bile, but then you think – does he fill those kids’ heads with this shit?

  2. Don’t be too harsh on Mike. He’s just one of those White South Africans who wish for those Halcyon pre-Apartheid days…

  3. A sad old fart still bitter about being on the wrong side of history genial old man?

  4. Mike – what exactly is that? Can you provide a link which can show it as genuine?

  5. Mahons,

    Just where did Mike say that he hated black people?

    Perhaps your presumption is no more than a hasty rush to judgement, and Mike’s criticism was that such displays were better saved for the theatre rather than in a cathedral.

    If you bother to follow the link, – yes, it’s the dreaded Daily mail, – you will see that there are numerous coloured clergy and congregation, – yet Mike made no adverse remarks on their presence.

    To the more traditional churchgoer, the organisers efforts to appear ‘modern’, could well be seen as a step too far.

    If this was a court, I would definitly ask for a retrial, on the grounds that the prosecutor presented false and misleadin evidence… 🙂

    Has your rush to be controversial, led to your knee-jerk comment? – it certainly seems to be so!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2297267/African-dancers-bongo-drums-Punjabi-hymn–oh-modern-arrival-Britains-new-Archbishop.html

  6. //you will see that there are numerous coloured clergy and congregation, – yet Mike made no adverse remarks on their presence.//

    Since he’s been on this site, Mike’s posts have related to blacks and Africans probably a hundred times, and each time he presents them negatively and with contempt.
    We all have our pet likes and dislikes, but Mike’s curiously seem always to be based on colour.

  7. Noel,

    I still think that Mahons was being deliberately presumptuous in the wording of his conclusions re Mike’s post.

    Sure he has a South African background, but even he can have a change of opinion, after all ‘old habits die hard!’, – and who knows his association with all of us ‘free-thinkers’ here on ATW, just may have had some good effect.

    To condemn him out-of-hand does rather show his critics, to be rather narrow-minded and intolerant themselves. Perhaps people in glasshouses really shouldn’t throw stones!.

  8. Ernest, in all Cunningham’s posts where skin colour is mentioned, it is always in a derogatory way.

    Why should anyone, you included, believe that a post which is titled ‘De Camp town races….Doo, Dah, Dey’, believe that this is a Road to Damascus moment, a changing of attitudes, rather than just another weak attempt to mock and belittle Black people?

  9. I have to admit when i saw this on last nights news on television i roared laughing. It’s so unusual to see such displays in any christian church, usually they’re seen in parades like lord mayors shows or even st pats day but this is a first for a christian church. I don’t know if its modernising, maybe inclusive of other cultures would be a better description, but the church keeps telling us how traditional it is, so if theres a place for diverse cultures then why not women priests and a better acceptance of gays? Christian churches have become confused in their christian message, if they want to be all things to all men thats fine, but if it distorts their message and moves away from its roots then its not a traditional christian church but more of a broad church, so why have a need for different strands of christianity. Simply join together, ditch the tradition and go in a more modern way . But it can’t have a foot in both camps.

  10. Ernest – Welcome – Since you are new to the site I suppose you haven’t had the opportunity of reading Mike’s many derogatory complaints about black people over the years. And of course I suppose you would not be acquainted with the title of the post which is from a minstrel song which I am sure had nothing to do with “black blokes” whose presence in a house of worship Mike finds, ahem, uncomfortable.

    Please stay and favor us with your comments, but I warn you there is a regular who goes by the name of Ernest who may not like the idea of someone else using his name.

    (P.S. I find Mike’s non racial whinging posts (which must be about 25% of his output) quite charming and well written).

  11. Seimi,

    You may well be right! – but did you really think that tribal dancing in the nave of Canterbury Cathedral, on such a solemn cultural occasion, was appropriate?

    Kateyo makes the point better than I did. Incidenatally kateyo, the CoE does have both women and gay priests.

    Surely church services are based on tradition, – why else all the fancy robes, and prescibed procedure? – but entertainment has never been a part of that tradition.

    Do you not consider that such a display, on such an occasion might be somewhat derogatory and even offensive and just a weak attempt to belittle White people? – or doesn’t that aspect matter?

  12. “A sad old fart still bitter about being on the wrong side of history ”

    Petr,
    Would I be correct in assuming that older people do not fit into your blanket affirmation and unconditional “support of the masses”?
    See, there are many many many older men and women in all cultures, not just the despicable western world.
    There are also lots of ordinary people who wouldn’t understand any of your fancy intellectual arguments, and they too are found all over amongst the “world’s masses.”

    I hold no brief for Mr Cunningham, but he does write interesting and informative posts, like myself and Ernest, is entitled to his opinions, and (if your philosophy is to retain any shreds of credibility) a certain amount of respect.

    If it helps, just pretend he’s a fourteen year old new immigrant….

  13. Right,
    my own views on the episode.
    We saw it on television last night, but I was only half paying attention. It was only when I saw Justin “Time” Welby that I realised what was going on.

    Now if you can accept that for many people of a certain age this multicultural society is an artificial construction that previous generations stretching all the way back to King Alfred and beyond would not recognise, I/we fail to see the relevance of a group of dancers complete with head dresses banging drums in the aisle..

    It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the England I was born into, and NOTHING to do with the historic rituals of the Church of England.
    It was a pathetic attempt by the establishment to appear inclusive, caring and appreciative of other cultures.
    That none of those guys would be invited to a dinner party or “to one’s club” says everything we need to know about the hypocrisy on display here.

    Now get your teeth into that.

  14. Ernest,

    ‘… but did you really think that tribal dancing in the nave of Canterbury Cathedral, on such a solemn cultural occasion, was appropriate?’

    Why is it inappropriate? Certainly it would be inappropriate had they just burst through the doors, uninvited and started to dance, but, considering the setting, the occasion, the guests etc, I think it’s safe to assume that they didn’t sneak past security, but were, in fact, invited. Which makes it entirely appropriate.

    I attended a couple of masses in Zambia, where during the Offering, locals brought, bread, fruit, meat, Coke, beer and even shampoo to the altar. It was entirely appropriate, as they were offering thanks for all that they had. Those masses were, beyond doubt, the most inspirational services I have had the pleasure to attend.

    ‘Kateyo makes the point better than I did.’

    She did indeed. She also made the point in relation to herself, whereas you appeared to be attributing the point to Cunningham.

    ‘Surely church services are based on tradition, – why else all the fancy robes, and prescibed procedure? – but entertainment has never been a part of that tradition.’

    Again, I think of the masses in Zambia, which were full of music, singing, laughter, bright clothes, swaying, hand-holding and a live band. Entertainment and celebration were central to the service. I saw no problem with this, nor did anyone else in our group, whether Catholic, Protestant or whatever.

    ‘Do you not consider that such a display, on such an occasion might be somewhat derogatory and even offensive and just a weak attempt to belittle White people? – or doesn’t that aspect matter?’

    No, not at all. And the suggestion that a group of dancers, whether tribal or not, having been invited to dance, could then be offensive to those present, is laughable. To further suggest that this invited group of dancers had designed the whole thing as ‘…a weak attempt to belittle White people…’ is so ridiculous that it beggars belief.

    Are you also offended when the All Blacks do the Hakka before their matches?

  15. Seimi
    “I attended a couple of masses in Zambia”
    So that is appropriate. That is their culture. Nothing wrong with it in context.
    But I would not see as appropriate to insert a troupe of Christian Morris Dancers into an African Christian celebration…
    It wouldn’t fit.
    And neither does this.

  16. Those defending the traditional CoE and condemning its modernity here are really confirming what many Catholics have always been saying: The Anglican church is nothing but a state club set up for a certain tribe, nothing to do with religion.

    The complaint now is that there are other tribes trying to join too.

  17. Agi,

    ‘But I would not see as appropriate to insert a troupe of Christian Morris Dancers into an African Christian celebration…’

    But if the Christian Morris Dancers were invited to dance, why would it be inappropriate?

  18. It is hard to take seriously those Catholics on ATW who so frequently criticize their own Church and its beliefs.
    The Roman Catholic Church is worldwide, and different countries and cultures worship in different ways. But context still matters.
    The Church of England also accepts different ways of worshipping in its various overseas branches. Not a problem.
    Have you ever attended a service in a culture not your own?
    I have been to Greek Pentecostal, Greek Orthodox, Jewish Messianic, Russian Orthodox, Black Pentecostal and Suisse Protestant.
    Not many I agree. But most of them (apart from the songs/hymns of worship) did nothing for me, and some seemed eye-glazingly never ending.

  19. Agit8ed

    Wasn’t this ceremony about his being enthroned as the Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the global Anglican communion NOT just the Church of England ?

  20. Seimi,
    http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/ens/2013/03/21/archbishop-of-canterbury-enthroned-in-ancient-splendor/

    http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acns/news.cfm/2013/3/21/ACNS5368

    Because to me it distracts from the actual point of what is going on.
    Just think, when her majesty the Queen was crowned at Westminster Abbey, we had the Commonwealth, we had Christian churches in most of them, but the ceremony itself followed the pattern of all previous ceremonies and nothing happened that distracted from the solemnity of the occasion.
    Now in this multicultural nation of ours we do not see these things taking place in our churches and by and large we do not see the various groups intermingling. I am not saying we shouldn’t intermingle, but on what basis do we do this? Do we say the UK is now the home of various cultures with differing lifestyles, or do we say it is the host culture that people should adapt to and communicate through?

  21. Colm,
    No, I mean the official occasion was him being inducted as the Archbishop of Canterbury,
    and as I said earlier those guys won’t have a lot in common with those British people and probably won’t be invited to any future knees up or theological discussions.
    It makes for colourful television I grant you, and perhaps gesture politics too.
    Anyway, stop arguing with me and get back to work! 😉

  22. My God – I’ve just seen The Independent of today and that picture is real. I thought that image of those simians cavorting in the Church was a photoshop which is why at 9.31am I asked Mike for a link. So it looks as though the evolution of man can be reversed after all.

    Btw, I see that the Chinese are attempting to isolate the genes for intelligence and are checking the genome of orientals and Europeans. They aren’t checking the genome of the African – surely that’s racist?

    http://explosivereports.com/

    According to Miller the DNA samples were collected mostly from “geniuses” of Chinese and European descent. He also stated outright that the purpose of the entire operation is to use the DNA collected in order to create a new breed of smarter, cognitively enhanced people for the Chinese state. Miller expands by stating that in the Chinese view these sort of state-approved interventions are desirable

  23. “I thought that image of those simians cavorting in the Church was a photoshop which is why at 9.31am I asked Mike for a link.
    Hold your fire lads!

    That’s a Hibernian windup I’m sure.

  24. Then apart from it being a change from your usual target, it is seriously disgusting.

  25. It certainly is – just look at it! How did the Church of England get to such a position where a jew is the Archbishop of Canterbury and an African is the Archbishop of York? Soon, gay ‘marriage’ will be accepted as a matter of equality and the Church of England will have been utterly destroyed from within. If you can show me that this troupe of ‘dancers’ has ever performed in a synagogue, then I will renounce what I have written.

  26. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the England I was born into, and NOTHING to do with the historic rituals of the Church of England

    I thought that Christianity was about the message of Christ who was supposedly sent to save all men?

    Does that include drummers of a darker skin tone?

    As for the title of Mike Cunningham’s blog, I wonder how he came up with such an obscure title to a post connected to race?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5WV-cELBB4

  27. “and an African is the Archbishop of York?”
    He came to live here and he has shown himself to be a good Christian Bishop. I like him. He brings a bit of reality to the Church of England.
    Oh yes, and he is loyal to this country and tries to fit in. Great!

  28. Pauly.
    I don’t think you read my comments correctly.
    Especially in response to Seimi’s point.

  29. mairin2
    I dipped in briefly, but after Ice Road Truckers I shall give it my full attention 🙂

  30. The article gets off to a slow start admittedly but it gets better…;-) It has big implications for the way we view the world. Went to a ‘lunch and learn’ this afternoon featuring this guy: http://www.michaeljustinlee.com/bio/ who talked about differences between the US and China from a financial literacy basis (well, more than China—Asian countries that developed from Confucius-based societies). It’s all quite fascinating.
    Have a nice weekend, A8! That’s enough learnin’ for me today…let the weekend begin!

  31. Then perhaps you could explain what you¡re on about Agi?

    I’ve re read each of them a few times and still come to the conclusion that you seem to suggest that the tradition of the ceremony seems to be more important that the supposed inclusive message of Christianity.

  32. Pauly,
    Christianity IS inclusive. There will be all colours shapes and sizes and denominations in Heaven, and no one will be forced to be there.

    That’s not the issue. The issue on this thread is appropriateness and context.
    So if I am in someone else’s culture or home I respect it.
    This country has traditions going back a thousand years, and there are some things which are very serious very solemn. I don’t see the point of changing things just to prove our multicultural credentials.
    I also don’t see why it is important that we acknowledge other cultures to the point that we are ashamed of our own Britishness,

  33. So how the message of Christ is celebrated is more important than the celebration itself?

  34. The issue on this thread is Mike doesn’t seem to like black people in his Church, and certainly not black Africans, and more certainly not black Africans in African garb.

    Isn’t this ceremony for the leader of the Worldwide Anglican Church of some 77 million members, which includes Africans (probably a more conservative bunch of Christians than their UK counterparts). So why wouldn’t they participate?

    I don’t profess to know all the articles of the Anglican faith, but I assume they believe Christ didn’t die to merely save White British people?

  35. Years ago, I attended a multicultural / interfaith service at the Cathedral of St John the Divine in New York. The joint service included Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox leaders, a rabbi, Hindu clergy, and the Dalai Lama.

    The service was solemn, simple, in the spirit of prayer, transcendent. I’ll always remember it.

    What I see here looks joyous. I’m not sure that it belongs in a religious service. I’m not sure that it would be in an African religious service.

  36. ‘I also don’t see why it is important that we acknowledge other cultures to the point that we are ashamed of our own Britishness,’

    What a strange thing to say…you feel ashamed of your own Britishness just because some African dancers were invited to a religious ceremony?

    Firstly, would these Africans not make you proud to be British? You conquered most of that continent, didn’t you? And now here they are, entertaining you?

    Ok, that was in jest, however I don’t see how you, Ernest or Mike Cunningham have displayed any Christian values on this thread. There is nothing inclusive about your stance on this subject. You are indeed, like three old men or women complaining about the changing world around them. Also, one of you is a racist. Hence the title of the thread.

    As for – ‘This country has traditions going back a thousand years, and there are some things which are very serious very solemn. I don’t see the point of changing things just to prove our multicultural credentials.’ – if I read this properly –

    ‘ the seat in question: the chair of St Augustine is the primatial seat of the Church of England – a primacy in the English church which has lasted since St Augustine came to preach in England at the orders of Pope St Gregory the Great in the 6th century, and has had significance almost from the beginning far beyond the shores of the British Isles.’

    – then that means that the seat, and indeed the entire church around it and all its flock – were all Catholic, but now they are Protestant. Now there’s a hell of a change in tradition and culture, and one which you have absolutely no problem whatsoever in embracing.

  37. Seimi,
    No I mean that the traditional ceremony can stand alone. It doesn’t need embellishments of this nature.

    “Firstly, would these Africans not make you proud to be British? You conquered most of that continent, didn’t you? And now here they are, entertaining you?”

    What’s entertainment got to do with it? What’s conquering got to do with it? It’s about the appointing of a new Archbishop, not some kind of Variety Show. Grief Seimi, you sound more colonial than the English.. 😉
    I expect them to be proud of their traditions, as I am proud of mine. But I am not some kind of white supremacist!

    ” You are indeed, like three old men or women complaining about the changing world around them. ”

    Now there I think you have a fair point; but that’s what happens as you get older, you get set in your ways and you cling on to the values and traditions that shaped you. My Dad struggled to understand my generation, just as his Dad probably did in his time.
    But let me tell you something. In my village there lives a Sikh family. I have encouraged the father to stand for our parish council and I invited him to pop in and have tea with us next time he is up our way.
    He told me in all the years he has lived in our village I am the first man to do that.
    So don’t give me your old squit about what I do, or do not show.

    I originally commented because of people’s abusive rudeness towards Mike Cunningham as they have also shown towards Ernest Young.
    I think its a smartarse arrogance to call older people names because either they may have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick, or else people don’t like what they have to say.

    ” then that means that the seat, and indeed the entire church around it and all its flock – were all Catholic, but now they are Protestant. Now there’s a hell of a change in tradition and culture, and one which you have absolutely no problem whatsoever in embracing.”

    Happened a long time ago within the European Christian tradition, and there are plenty of what we would call “High Churches” which are quite close to the Catholic teachings – apart from transubstantiation and purgatory.

    As a Christian I don’t believe in meaningless gestures or being trendy. It ultimately means nothing but it does make for colourful television and blog fodder.

  38. ‘ In my village there lives a Sikh family. I have encouraged the father to stand for our parish council and I invited him to pop in and have tea with us next time he is up our way.
    He told me in all the years he has lived in our village I am the first man to do that.
    So don’t give me your old squit about what I do, or do not show.’

    As my cousin would say – And what do you want? Carried around the room? Does this one example prove that you are a good Christian? Or just a decent person, who sees positive qualities in others? Or did you just do it because he is a Sikh?

    ‘ But I am not some kind of white supremacist!’

    I never said you were.

    ‘I originally commented because of people’s abusive rudeness towards Mike Cunningham as they have also shown towards Ernest Young.’

    I was abusive towards Mike Cunningham, yes, but certainly not Ernest.

    ‘I think its a smartarse arrogance to call older people names because either they may have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick, or else people don’t like what they have to say.’

    I agree. I didn’t do any of that.

    ‘Happened a long time ago within the European Christian tradition…’

    Oh, that’s ok then?

    ‘As a Christian I don’t believe in meaningless gestures or being trendy.’

    As someone with plenty of doubts and questions about organised religion, I think that all you believe in is meaningless gestures 🙂

  39. Why can’t people be abusive to Mike or Ernest when they put out racist claptrap or an apology for it? Are they immune to criticism because they are old farts as opposed to me a middle aged fart?

    Mike’s post was a juvenile piece of racist bile. Don’t like me calling him out on it, too bad.

  40. mairin2,
    I went back and read your link
    http://www.psmag.com/magazines/pacific-standard-cover-story/joe-henrich-weird-ultimatum-game-shaking-up-psychology-economics-53135/

    It is much more detailed than I am used to, but very very interesting imo.

    It explains the differences between say tribal peoples in simple unified societies, and people in more advanced complex societies where personal freedom of expression is valued more highly than community.

    My own experience of group and community living are mainly positive and certainly I try to promote that deeper social intercourse in church. Yet at the same time I too am constantly aware of the dangers of social conformity, because it can prevent a more objective analytical viewpoint. It seems to me that in societies where conformity to the social norms is desirable, then research and evaluation are seen as a threat to the stability of that group.

    In any event the article does seem to be saying that people’s perception of reality is shaped by their religion, or at least the religious assumptions that permeate their culture.
    So it is indeed naive of people to believe that people all want the same thing and that there can be a kind of cultural free for all in which people must be free to do their own thing. Reality doesn’t work like that.

  41. Thanks for reading, A8, especially since it was a fairly long article. The article also counters those who say things like blacks are inherently less intelligent e.g. I love the new brain development studies…
    I also ‘get’ those who want to keep things like church services traditional and not have ‘shows’ during services or mass. As a side note…for St Patrick’s Day, I attended a lecture/discussion/performance that was mostly about the minsteral shows and featured songs like Camp Town Races and dances of the time (a combination of African and Irish dance). Minstrel shows also popularized the banjo (an African instrument). The Irish/their descendants were the main players in the shows. The Irish and blacks were viewed as simians (and were also enslaved — not just indentured) by the English and it was a way for the Irish to distinguish themselves from blacks to please the theatre-going (WASP) crowds. Funny enough, the most successful black-face performer was a black man himself. Class, race, hierarchy, etc. were the name of the game in those times. The guy who wrote this song actually wasn’t a racist…there are secret hints in these songs that show his love and respect for blacks (as far as one could during the times and he did express regret that his songs were used for such greatly exaggerated purposes. I hope Len Sloan and Mick Maloney take their African Mornings Irish Afternoon show on the road so people would have a better understanding of these things…redemption is in order when we perpetuate hurtful sterotypes (though honestly Camp Town Races doesn’t really count wholly as racist and it’s made its way into American folk music — it was more the way the song was performed that was racist).
    When I was a kid, we had a South African ship captain stay with us one Christmas holiday…he taught us (about 20 cousins under the age of 12) what he told us were Zulu songs and dances…I still remember the made-up words…much to the laughter of the adults…I realize now he had us putting on his own version of a minstrel show and none of the adults so it as wrong. Anyway…I’m rambling…this post really dovetailed with many things I have been reading and experiencing of late but I think it’s time to say good night…;-) before I bring the Chinese into it. G’night.

  42. “Why can’t people be abusive to Mike or Ernest when they put out racist claptrap or an apology for it? Are they immune to criticism because they are old farts as opposed to me a middle aged fart?* ”

    I couldn’t possibly argue with your last confession* Mahons, and I admire your honesty.
    The point is this.
    Suppose your father or any of our fathers (or mothers) were to comment here on ATW from time to time. Sure, we might find it a bit embarrassing, but would we be happy for OUR parents to be abused simply because they hold outdated views, shaped by a worldview now gone?
    I don’t think so. I certainly wouldn’t. I think it shows a certain degradation in civilised behaviour to abuse someone just because their views are no longer in vogue.
    I believe in respecting our elders even when we disagree with them.

  43. Why does anyone have to be ‘abusive’? State your objections. Offer an alternative point of view. But abuse? Shouldn’t have to be. And to try and rally people to abuse…something is wrong with that picture. I also see no point in adults trying to shame one another. Hell, I see no point in trying to shame anyone into choanging their POV…not even children. It’s an immature way to deal with issues. With that said, if a someone wants others to discuss the content of the post and not himself, than he should take care to present it the story in a manner that focuses on the issue at hand otherwise people could get sidetracked and perhaps take it is an invitation to abuse the author.

  44. I think it shows a certain degradation in civilised behaviour to abuse someone just because their views are no longer in vogue.

    Thinking that someone is inferior because they have a different skin tone is an even bigger degradation in civilised behaviour.

  45. Agit8ed – Save the baloney for someone else, Mike’s racial views were outdated in his day and deserve no more respect then that they do now.

    He isn’t offering an opinion but expressing a prejudice. There are not and have not been two meritorious sides deserving equal respect to simple bigotry.

  46. “Agit8ed – Save the baloney for someone else”

    No no Mahons! I think you are a worthy recipient. After all, anyone who can admit to being a middle aged fart can handle a bit of baloney..
    Anyway, I disagree about Mike’s views being outdated in his time. I think many people held similar views.
    Now I have never been to South Africa. I wouldn’t want to go. I certainly wouldn’t want to go to Liberia either.
    But many white South Africans are leaving their homeland now and moving to western nations. We have a lot here in Britain, and they are doing pretty well for themselves.
    And even if his views are bigotry, they can be countered without people being agist and abusive.
    Funny that Peter Tasarov can write “A sad old fart still bitter about being on the wrong side of history genial old man?” and “Decent? No no. He’s a nasty piece of work who’s best ignored.”
    yet has nothing to say about the horrific stuff that has gone on in Liberia. Now THAT’S nasty, but Petr cannot bring himself to acknowledge it.
    I have posted it three times now, just to see if he could be even handed in his condemnation of violence and oppression…

  47. ‘Thinking that someone is inferior because they have a different skin tone is an even bigger degradation in civilised behaviour.’

    Racist or ageist, – just two strokes with the same brush. Nothing anyone can do to alter either condition. All it does is highlight the writers hypocrisy.

    Now lack of tolerance, that is something we can all do, and need to do something about.

Comments are closed.