125 2 mins 9 yrs

Nanny may know best but she does NOT want any of your kisses!

“A sex education chief has been criticised over warnings that forcing children to kiss relatives could be harmful and suggesting that encouraging a youngster to high-five or wave instead could help them avoid future sexual exploitation. 

Lucy Emmerson, coordinator of the Sex Education Forum, said that children needed to learn “from age zero” about the importance of consent and that “their bodies are their own”.

She advised parents to stop trying to persuade their offspring to kiss a granny or an elderly aunt as it could blur the boundaries of what is acceptable when it comes to physical contact. However, her controversial comments, in an online sex education resource for teachers, were attacked by family campaigners.”

Now don’t get me wrong, FORCING kids to kiss anyone is not great but it kinda comes with the terrain! It is NOT sexual abuse and that wild claims of this quango queen should be dismissed as such.

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125 thoughts on “DON’T KISS YOUR GRANNY!!!

  1. Depends if your Granny is hotter than your Teacher these days I suppose.

    Since mine wasn’t and I didn’t fancy Mr Stacey either I guess my luck was out or in…:)

  2. I don’t think she is saying that it is sexual abuse. The message is rather that it may make the child more vulnerable to sexual abuse in future. I think she has a point. I think we should be maximising messages to children that they should not succumb to any pressure to demonstrate affection, particularly physically.

    There is a danger that kids get to feel that it is impolite not to kiss anyone that wants to kiss them. Even if they don’t quite know where that felling came from.

  3. I would have thought ‘high fiving’ your granny would be more embarrassing and disturbing for both child and gran than the good old traditional’forced’ kiss.

  4. Aileen

    The ‘felling’ usually comes when people learn how to properly respond to an unwanted kiss 😉

  5. Lucy Emmerson, coordinator of the Sex Education Forum, said that children needed to learn “from age zero” about the importance of consent and that “their bodies are their own”.
    She advised parents to stop trying to persuade their offspring to kiss a granny or an elderly aunt as it could blur the boundaries of what is acceptable when it comes to physical contact.

    Total, naive and brainwashed ballcocks!

    Children need affection from their parents. Mostly all crave physical contact from close family, else when they grow up how will they express love and physical intimacy?

    Here’s one for the “excitable” among you..

    I discovered (by accident) that not only do little’uns enjoy being thrown in the air and being caught
    (squeals of delight!)
    if you lower the child or baby so that their tummy “bounces” on the top of your head, it makes them laugh
    (usually)
    or throw up maybe…. 😉 )

    Has that caused any outraged hysterics anywhere here?

    Lastly it is our consumer society and the increasing influence of pornography and the growth of the “sex industry” which is corrupting our children, not mums, dads or even grannies.

  6. LOL Colm
    but only if the individual knows they can dispose of their kisses (or cheeks) as HE chooses.

  7. Is that just on the first date?

    Utterly insane. Not only the advice itself, but the fact that advice is offered by some bureaucratic imbecile in the conventional psycho-babble of modern times.

  8. This is as when they now counsel ( warn ) kindergarten teachers never to hug their very young students. Which they very often do.

    All the humanity is to be driven out of every situation, since you never know.

  9. This is as when they now counsel ( warn ) kindergarten teachers never to hug their very young students, which school districts very often do.

  10. I would have hoped that not FORCING (which is the issue) hugs or kisses on a child was already standard amongst kindergarten teachers.

    It is an unfortunate state of affairs that well intentioned professionals have to protect themselves from accusations of abuse.

    Good news for the child who doesn’t like the staff. Good news for the child who doesn’t like hugs (maybe autistic spectrum). Bad news for the run of the mill child who is used to giving and receiving unforced affection and professionals who choose the job because they love children and hugging them is second nature.

  11. Item 1

    My six-year-old eldest grandson comes through my front door on his Christmas visit, and immediately throws his arms around his Grandad. He was glad to see me, and I was delighted that he is so happy to see his Grandad as to hug me in an unsophisticated, unspoilt and artless manner.

    Item 2.

    I visited Son #2 yesterday, and ruffled the hair of Grandson #3 as he sat eating, or rather slurping, his berries and bananas; and he rewarded me with his gorgeous smile of innocence.

    Who is this silly, stupid cow to attempt to deny me the true rewards and honours associated with being a Grandfather?

  12. Many people in the UK are now afraid to approach a child obviously in distress for fear of how it may be construed.
    I was in B&Q a couple of months ago and came across a little girl about 6 who had somehow got separated from her mum.
    Naturally I checked first to see if she was carrying any government health warnings..
    Don’t speak to me!
    Don’t touch me!

    then from a safe distance I asked her what the matter was, saw a member of staff nearby, asked the child to stay put (but she insisted on coming with me),
    told the member of staff what had happened, asked the little girl
    “Where did you last see your mother and what was she wearing?”
    Then I said I would go look for her, please stay with the staff member (who announced on the tannoy the
    girl was missing a mummy)

    The little girl insisted on coming with me. We found mummy.
    I felt good, because I hadn’t given in to the thought police and so called experts who actually make a living out of this crap.

  13. Mike

    Who is this silly, stupid cow to attempt to deny me the true rewards and honours associated with being a Grandfather?

    She wasn’t commenting on depriving you of anything mentioned in your comment, which had no mention of either of your grandchildren being FORCED to kiss you.

    I would have thought that the rewards and honours associated with being a grandfather were about the demonstrating reciprocal affection that you were describing as opposed to being in receipt of forced kisses.

  14. Medical professionals today are trained to treat every patient as though they might have AIDS or some other awful disease and to take precautions accordingly ( Really – and not wrong either )

    It appears that others are now trying to make so that every adult in an adult/child interaction is to be treated as a potential molester. This is moving to a society that no one would want to live in.

  15. This is a mad post followed by a mad thread (with the exception of Aileen).
    Can any of your read?

    The professional merely suggested that it is may not be good to force children to kiss relatives and that children should be allowed, if they preferred, use some other form of greeting they are comfortable with.

    Even apart from the risk of child abuse arising from children thinking they must not say No to advances by some adult they don’t like, the advice makes good sense on its own merits.

  16. Lucy Emmerson, coordinator of the Sex Education Forum, said that

    children needed to learn “from age zero” about the importance of consent and that “their bodies are their own”.

    She advised parents to stop trying to persuade their offspring to kiss a granny or an elderly aunt as it could blur the boundaries of what is acceptable when it comes to physical contact.

    In the CONTEXT she is saying the child needs to learn from age zero that they choose what physical contact is acceptable.
    Do you understand that Noel?
    Is it feasible that parents full of the joys of a new baby are going to turn around to their mother and father and say,

    “Please don’t encourage little Igor to give you a kiss, we want him to understand that kissing /being kissed is HIS choice, not ours or yours..”
    That’s going to go down a bomb ain’t it?
    That it flies in the face of human experience of family bonding is another, and in the face of the increasing sexualisation and exploitation of children, it’s ridiculous.

    If you are still considering standing for Winson Green Birmingham, I have to advise you (with an upright hand palm towards you, and without invading your personal space) that I am withdrawing my support.

  17. Lucy Emmerson did not use the word force here that I can see.

    The newspaper reporter used that word.

  18. //In the CONTEXT she is saying the child needs to learn from age zero that they choose what physical contact is acceptable.
    Do you understand that Noel?//

    I understand it all right, i.e. that you don’t understand what she said.

    “Age zero” was obviously for rhetoric, as no child learns anything on the day it’s born. She meant that from the time a child learns what feels right and what not, it should not be forced to physical contact that it feels no inclination to.

    // that I am withdrawing my support.//

    I don’t know what you’re talking about, but whatever it is it’s, like I suppose for everyone else from whom you have distanced yourself, cause for much relief.

  19. The more I think about this the more important a message I consider it. Thankfully most parents I see nowadays (and for some time), will at most go “kiss for granny?” and if the child doesn’t want to then it’s just “ah well not today” and that’s the end of it. No drama, no persuasion and no forcing.

  20. I think sometimes us little ATW babies should be ‘persuaded’ to kiss and hug each other more often 😉

  21. What next .. banning Granny from sucking eggs 😉

    I shouldn’t be encouraging the totalitarian drones.

  22. // if the child doesn’t want to then it’s just “ah well not today” and that’s the end of it. No drama, no persuasion and no forcing.//

    Exactly.

    The dude who was outraged by the remarks quoted in the article says:

    “Even if the distinction is lost on the Sex Education Forum, children and young people are able to recognise that there is all the difference in the world between self-consciously – and perhaps on occasion reluctantly – kissing an uncle or aunt on the cheek on the one hand, and accepting unwanted sexual advances on the other.”

    That certainly isn’t universally true, and it’s the unusual cases we have to be concerned about. Children will learn whatever distinctions are shown to them, and will not necessarily see a predatory adult as a risk if they have in each case hitherto been told to have physical contact with whatever adult was in front of them.

    One of the strange, and sad, parts of the Fred West story was that his daughter didn’t know that there was anything unusual about the regular rapes by her father. She apparently rebelled only when she learned that all her other friends in school were not also being raped by their fathers.
    Unfortunately it was too late in her case.

  23. Social and Emotional Development Milestones

    By Three Months

    Develops a social smile

    Cries to communicate but then slowly begins to communicate more with face and body (for example, coos, babbles, and smiles)

    Uses sucking to help calm down

    By Eight Months

    Is interested in mirror images

    Will respond to his/her name

    Begins to imitate actions, facial expressions, and sounds

    By 12 Months

    Anxious or shy with strangers

    Has preferences for certain people and toys

    To gain attention, repeats sounds and gestures made by others

    Develops a sense of humor and laughs a lot

    http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/pages/publicationD.jsp?publicationId=1439

    In the first 12 months the child is learning and if surrounded with love and security they will respond in like manner.
    As they grow they may kiss an aunt or whatever to please a parent or because they actually like the aunt, or they may not.

    The point being that Lucy Emmerson says in the article that “from age zero” the child should choose what level of contact is acceptable, and I am saying in the formative months it is learning how to respond to love and affection..
    No one would force a loved child to kiss someone if they didn’t want to, but most parents would encourage them to.

  24. Kids, beware of Grandma and Grandad .. they maybe monsters.

    Less state, far less state, not more.

  25. Harri

    Kids, beware of Grandma and Grandad .. they maybe monsters

    Well they might be but that isn’t the message. The message is that however young you are, it’s your choice as to whether you kiss them.

  26. Should not be too long now, that slippery slope is going to get even more slippery.

    How long before the righteous ‘demand’ a state approved exclusion zone around Granny and Grandad 😉

  27. One of the strange, and sad, parts of the Fred West story was that his daughter didn’t know that there was anything unusual about the regular rapes by her father. She apparently rebelled only when she learned that all her other friends in school were not also being raped by their fathers.
    Unfortunately it was too late in her case.

    I rather think Fred and Rosemary West were an unusual and evil case.
    Children accept their family world as being the norm, even if it makes them unhappy.
    Most people love their kids and as I said earlier healthy love and expressions of affection are the norm.
    It is this insane brainwashing of kids to be aware of their own sexuality and the right to say “No!” when they are still just children which is actually sick and doing more harm than good.

  28. Well they might be but that isn’t the message. The message is that however young you are, it’s your choice as to whether you kiss them.

    Precisely, and the parents ..

    Not the State.

  29. We should teach our children about the dangers of State social engineering, and don’t worry too much about their grandparents, they are the least of their little people problems, tha state is far far more dangerous to our kids wellbeing.

  30. Children can be guilted into showing acts of affection when they don’t want to and it is not right. They may do it to avoid embarrassment in a scenario engineered by others. This can set the pattern for tolerating familiarisation in later life that is unwelcome and uncomfortable.

  31. I would much rather my children were surrounded by love, and not surrounded by the State.

  32. Harri

    Should not be too long now, that slippery slope is going to get even more slippery.

    Not a slippery slope at all. In fact stopping the slide into tolerating slippery customers in the future.

    Precisely, and the parents ..

    No not the parents – them and them alone (assuming granny and granddad are willing to be kissed).

  33. Lets be honest here, this ‘Don’t kiss Granny’ advice from yet another useful idiot State drone, it should be dismissed out of hand and treated with the contempt it truly deserves.

    Utter rot.

  34. I mean not the parents choice if they kiss someone. If young then it should be the parents choice if the don’t kiss them.

    i.e. the parents should be able to prevent the child kissing someone but not to persuade them to.

  35. Harri

    Lets be honest here, this ‘Don’t kiss Granny’ advice from yet another useful idiot State drone, it should be dismissed out of hand and treated with the contempt it truly deserves

    No the notion that it is merely a “don’t kiss granny” message should be dismissed out of hand. The advice that children should not be persuaded to should be listened to. Although, I think most good modern parents are already on the page.

  36. My aunt once told me about my father and uncle who used to hide when they saw signs of the imminent departure of an aunt of theirs as they dreaded the compulsory goodbye kiss. That was about 100 years ago. I doubt if my grandparents were that up on child psychology.

  37. Well they might be but that isn’t the message. The message is that however young you are, it’s your choice as to whether you kiss them.

    And my message is, less state, not more.

    The last time I kissed my Gran, she was lying in a coffin 😉

  38. So a little closer look at this Sex Education Forum..
    Under “our advisory group…”

    Chair: Jane Lees, representing NSCoPSE

    Vice-Chair: Alice Hoyle, representing RSE Hub

    Natalie Collyer, representing Brook

    Guy Slade, representing Terrence Higgins Trust

    Joe Hayman, representing PSHE Association

    Rev Jane Fraser, representing BodySense

    Alison Hadley OBE, Life Member

    Sannah Gulamani, representing Deafax

    Now this lady Alison Hadley OBE lists her particular interests.

    “There has been a considerable amount of research into teenage pregnancy and teenage parenthood. The characteristics of young people at risk have been identified and the evidence on what works is well established. I am particularly interested in developing more research into service user involvement and the social context which influences how young people and teenage parents use and benefit from services. Understanding the perceptions and attitudes of both the service user and the practitioners is essential for improving service design and the effectiveness of one to one consultations. Getting services and communication skills right is always important, but even more so when local resources are limited. Building trust in services, particularly among the most vulnerable young people, increases their early uptake of support and saves the costs of later intervention.

    The following areas are examples of current research gaps which I am keen to address.

    How to increase young people’s trust in and use of general practice for contraception and sexual health advice
    Exploring the attitudes of health practitioners to teenage sexual activity, teenage pregnancy and the provision of contraception and sexual health services
    Exploring young people’s knowledge and attitudes to contraception
    How marginalised groups of young people – including looked after children and care leavers – can be supported to access early contraception and sexual health advice.
    How to increase teenage mothers and young fathers’ trust in and use of maternity services and children’s centres
    How young parents can be supported back into education and training”

    I looked at a few of these programmes and organisations.
    All centre around “SRE” (sex and relationships education) for the young in schools young parents etc.

    Have a look at this page..
    http://www.sexeducationforum.org.uk/young-people.aspx

    Are you looking for help and advice about growing up, sex and relationships?

    (This web-site does not give help and advice to children and young people but we recommend these help-lines and web-sites….)

    Brook give confidential advice to young people. You can telephone 0808 802 1234 from 11am – 3pm Monday to Friday. You can text 07717 989 023 (standard SMS rates apply). Or visit the Brook web-site http://www.askbrook.org.uk/

    fpa give advice on sexual health, sex and relationships. On the fpa web-site you can search for a clinic near where you live. You can also send a question on the web-site and you get the answer on the web-site too. fpa help-line in England is 0845 122 8690.

    The Like it is web-site has lots of information about puberty, contraception, periods, sexuality and more.

    Learning Positive Awareness of and attitudes to HIV – Interactive website for young people and teachers

    Teenage Health Freak is a website for all sorts of teenage worries and questions. From sex to smoking there is advice for you.

    The Site – Information about Sex and Relationships, Health and Wellbeing, Drink and Drugs and more.

    Avert – information and advice about HIV and AIDS

    Teen Issues – discussing the problems that teens face

    London Lesbian and Gay Switchboard – helpline for anyone that needs calm words of advice

    Terrence Higgins Trust – HIV and AIDS charity

    Do you want to get involved in improving sex and relationships education?

    The Sex Education Forum wants all children and young people to have good quality sex and relationships education.

    There are lots of ways you can make your views about sex and relationships education known. Visit the youth advocacy section to find out more.

    Now as far as I am aware my generation managed to grow up fall in/out of love and raise families without any of this stuff.

    Another tidbit,

    Why sex education matters
    A year-long campaign is calling for good quality lessons that explain more than just the biology of puberty and reproduction.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/24/why-sex-education-matters

    “Over the years people have argued that sex education must be more than just the biology of puberty and reproduction, and must look at the real life context too – ie relationships. So SEF and others have called for compulsory sex and relationships education (SRE) to be taught to all children and young people from primary schools upwards.”

    So with all of this (mainly) state funded attention, why is the problem getting worse not better?

  39. I read it Noel and she’s bonkers. Course I prefer Penthouse Forum to Sex Education Forum for my sex-related literature, but one can see from their own website that they are a self-justifying ninnies who have a vested interest in advocating more sex education…from them.

    Lucy Emerson is no doctor, doesn’t seem to have an advanced degree in the field other than a Master’s in Development (how much of that is devoted to child development remains a mystery) and seems to have only even worked in the Sex Ed field for four years (her sporadic cv seems to indicate she spent as much time unemployed or as a personal trainer).

    Welcome to modern times where quasi-professionals offer half-baked theories based on highly dubious methodology that witchdoctors and carnival barkers would be too shamed to advance.

  40. I read it Noel and she’s bonkers. Course I prefer Penthouse Forum to Sex Education Forum for my sex-related literature, but one can see from their own website that they are a self-justifying ninnies who have a vested interest in advocating more sex education…from them.

    Lucy Emerson is no doctor, doesn’t seem to have an advanced degree in the field other than a Master’s in Development (how much of that is devoted to child development remains a mystery) and seems to have only even worked in the Sex Ed field for four years (her sporadic cv seems to indicate she spent as much time unemployed or as a personal trainer).

    Welcome to modern times where quasi-professionals offer half-baked theories based on highly dubious methodology that witchdoctors and carnival barkers would be too shamed to advance.

  41. Well goodness me, Mr Mahons!

    A welcome flash of good old common sense.
    Go to the top of the class.

  42. Don’t know who or what Lucy Emerson in and I’m not that interested. The advice about not persuading children to kiss people when or who they don’t want to is sound.

  43. Aileen – are there an inordinate amount of children forced at gunpoint to kiss elderly relatives in the United Kingdom? Are children denied food or shelter by their parents because they would not heed a request to kiss a grandparent?

    Are people in Britain constantly jumping off of bridges and leaving notes that if only they had not been compelled to kiss Aunt Agatha at an early age and could have offered her a high five instead that they would have been able to adjust to life?

    Or, and forgive me if my childhood memory has diminished since the passage of time, do parents encourage such a simple thing on occasion without resorting to violence or threat of violence?

    I am not particularly interested in Ms. Emmerson other in pointing out the lack of merit, qualification and substance to her and her position. Ms. Emmerson is merely the embodiment of a cultural phenomenon that can kiss my ass, though no doubt she would prefer to high five it as well. (perhaps low five would be a more suitable greeting).

  44. //I rather think Fred and Rosemary West were an unusual and evil case.
    Children accept their family world as being the norm, even if it makes them unhappy.//

    Exactly, Agit8ed. I knew you’d get there in the end. One needs only be patient.

    You will now understand that a child will be accustomed to and consider normal even the most “unusual and evil cases” if that is all they have known.
    The point here is that they don’t get accustomed to, and thus not consider normal, unwanted physical contact.

    //are there an inordinate amount of children forced at gunpoint to kiss elderly relatives in the United Kingdom? Are children denied food or shelter by their parents because they w//

    Mahons, I think you don’t understand the debate so far. What Mrs. Whatshername is and what her organisation is and is involved in are irrelevant.

    The point is that it can be dangerous if a child is brought up from an early age to accept unwanted kisses and caresses, as it may cloud its judgement and natural instinct in defending itself later.

    Remember, it is the fringe cases that should concern us, not the normal families where the child is well adjusted and balanced, where the parents are always around etc.
    Some people, you will have noticed, are incredibly naive and emotionally undeveloped in many ways, even if they may make a good impression in other areas. This is to protect them.
    After all, in the cases she was talking about, it’s only a choice of either granddad feeling uncomfortable with his rejected kisses or the child feeling comfortable by having to make them when it doesn’t want to.

    In this case, let the child decide. I know many old people particularly who are extremely selfish in that regard, and ignore a child’s obvious protests to smother it in kisses and hugs just because their own lives are otherwise cold and empty.
    I saw this several times over the past few weeks, when my poor wee lads did everything short of kicking to get away from the desperate arms and lips of their aged and frustrated relatives, until in the end I had to intervene (alas not with my fists)

    Stuff them. Let them get their comfort elsewhere. An involuntary show of affection is no affection.

  45. Aileen – are there an inordinate amount of children forced at gunpoint to kiss elderly relatives in the United Kingdom?

    FGS what an irrelevant question!

    Are children denied food or shelter by their parents because they would not heed a request to kiss a grandparent?

    I would have hoped a father would have understood that children can susceptible to pressure even if it doesn’t include being denied food or shelter or having a gun pointed at them

    Are people in Britain constantly jumping off of bridges and leaving notes that if only they had not been compelled to kiss Aunt Agatha at an early age and could have offered her a high five instead that they would have been able to adjust to life?

    There is suffering or even merely disadvantage beyond leaping off bridges. Food parents wish children to be spared unnecessary discomfort. Children can be at peril (both as children and as adults) if they don’t feel confident about rejecting physical contact they find uncomfortable (with or without sexual connotations)

    Or, and forgive me if my childhood memory has diminished since the passage of time, do parents encourage such a simple thing on occasion without resorting to violence or threat of violence?

    Again your sarcastic tone should be an embarrassment to you on this occasion. There is a difference between encourage and persuade. It is when the encouragement moves into the territory of persuasion that can compromise a child’s sense that it is he shouldn’t give such demonstrations of affection unless he wants to.

    I say he to be grammatically correct but I think the problem is potentially worse with girls. Boys tend to be excused these demonstrations (grandma possibly excluded) as they get older. Some old man, friend of the family hugs the girl. She doesn’t like it but knows that it is expected she tolerate it as not to would be considered unfriendly and cause embarrassment. That wanting to avoid embarrassment and being considered unreasonable/unfriendly and the pattern of suppressing her discomfort can replay itself when some spotty Herbert is chancing his arm later on. Or indeed some old goat chancing his arm.
    The right thing to do is to Instill in a child of either sex, the idea they don’t kiss people they don’t want to and that pressure or persuasion to do so, is wrong.

    I am not particularly interested in Ms. Emmerson other in pointing out the lack of merit, qualification and substance to her and her position. Ms. Emmerson is merely the embodiment of a cultural phenomenon that can kiss my ass, though no doubt she would prefer to high five it as well. (perhaps low five would be a more suitable greeting).

    Fine but it does not invalidate the principle.

  46. Noel – Gosh please explain it to me since I am incapable of reading. Oh wait, now I remember, I do know how to read.

    I am far more interested in who is giving the advice, why they think they are qualified to do so, why people feel they have to pay attention to them (or not), and if the advice has merit or not. I am also interested in the idea that some organization thinks based on its survey or poll that it has a firmer grip on what people should or should not do. I find the language employed by these groups to be hilarious (not that they intend it to be hilarious).

    I’ve never known any old folks who didn’t know kids can be shy when they choose and who took offense at some kid heading for the hills or squirming away. I don’t think the request to kiss or hug a grandparent is any more odious than a request to stop running indoors (unheeded in my house) or to sit up straight.

  47. Aileen – It is a comic goldmine when these para-academic organizations use the language of a real problem (sex and consent for example) and mix it up with an invented one (the dire consequence of asking junior to give grams a kiss or hug).

    Good God she probably got a government grant for this nonsense.

  48. //That wanting to avoid embarrassment and being considered unreasonable/unfriendly and the pattern of suppressing her discomfort can replay itself when some spotty Herbert is chancing his arm later on. Or indeed some old goat chancing his arm.//

    Well said.

    There was a moment this Christmas, as I watched my boys being smothered with all this unwelcome sloppiness, that I had a – seasonal, if a bit early – epiphany: these same oldies had probably gone all their lives without voluntary physical contact, where just the routine mechanics of the act were all that were offered and expected.
    They make do with the show because they’ve long since given up on substance. A sort of “making love”, in the truest sense.

  49. Exactly, Agit8ed. I knew you’d get there in the end. One needs only be patient.

    We are talking -no the article is talking about ordinary family relationships with ordinary children.
    But the people behind this advice are not ordinary. They have an agenda and that’s why I quoted extensively from it..
    They are into “non judgmental” advice for young kids on all sorts of sex related issues including young unplanned parenthood and all sorts of other things.
    This is a “we know best” approach from people who have no real time for traditional families, and personally I wouldn’t trust them to give SRE to my damn cat.
    It’s both smug, superior and controlling and it uses our money to do it on.
    No wonder you support it.

  50. // I am also interested in the idea that some organization thinks based on its survey or poll that it has a firmer grip on what people should or should not do.//

    Then you’re in the right place. Agit8ed, Mike, Pete, etc. are also interested in those things it seems.

    // I don’t think the request to kiss or hug a grandparent is any more odious than a request to stop running indoors//

    If you mean a child feels is as comfortable with an order to kiss some old person he doesn’t feel like kissing as with one to stop running indoors, you are very different to all the kids, and indeed adults, I know.

  51. //But the people behind this advice are not ordinary. They have an agenda and that’s why I //

    Agit8ed, please continue your discussion with mahons.

  52. Mahons, I think you don’t understand the debate so far. What Mrs. Whatshername is and what her organisation is and is involved in are irrelevant.

    I would say he understands it very well, as do most of the others who have already commented.
    You on the other hand, are part of the new, smirky and condescending expert politically correct thought police, funded by the tax monies of the people you scorn and want to change.

    Of course it is relevant what these organisations believe and what their goals are.

  53. Mahons

    Aileen – It is a comic goldmine when these para-academic organizations use the language of a real problem (sex and consent for example) and mix it up with an invented one (the dire consequence of asking junior to give grams a kiss or hug).
    Good God she probably got a government grant for this nonsense.

    I don’t doubt that there are many organisations who get money for old rope.
    That isn’t anything to do with what I am talking about. I am purely interested in the potential damage done to young people. I am horrified by the snide dismissal of this as “dire consequences” when you clearly don’t get the damage done by giving kids the idea that it is ok for them to be manoeuvred into persuaded into giving or accepting physical demonstrations of affection.

  54. Aileen – It. Is. Not. Just. About. What. You. Are. Talking. About.

    I have a different take on the message and the messenger. I am not limiting myself to your take on it. This isn’t about telling children that they have to accept all physical demonstrations of affection (perhaps the West Virginia Sex Education Forum is different).

  55. Aileen

    Please don’t take any offence, but have you ever done anything, you know, on the spur of the moment, off cuff, or just been spontanious, just lived life as it comes .. or do you carry out a psychoanalytic theory test on everyone and every situation first 😉

  56. Mahons

    What I am talking about is the specific point about children not having to make physical demonstrations of affection that they don’t want to.
    I am not asking you to limit yourself but your responses were to me and comments about the organisation don’t IN ANY WAY support your dismissal of the specific point about not persuading children to kiss people they don’t want to. You were belittling this issue with talk of depriving children of food and shelter etc.

  57. Harri

    Aileen
    Please don’t take any offence, but have you ever done anything, you know, on the spur of the moment, off cuff, or just been spontanious, just lived life as it comes .. or do you carry out a psychoanalytic theory test on everyone and every situation first

    Not a psychoanalytic analysis but I generally put things through a morality algorithm before acting. It’s what stopped me becoming a terrorist!

  58. Aileen – I am belittling the organization, its specious idea and those who are overwrought about it. Other than that, I am in full sympathy.

  59. Not a psychoanalytic analysis but I generally put things through a morality algorithm before acting. It’s what stopped me becoming a terrorist!

    So, you work for the NSA then 😉

  60. Lucy Emerson is not in any gainful or worthwhile public employment, and wastes time, money and otherwise perfectly good oxygen heading up some utterly pointless government Quango which should be disbanded with immediate effect.

  61. Sex and relationship education is compulsory in maintained secondary schools.

    But the Sex Education Forum’s co-ordinator, Lucy Emmerson, says the findings suggest lessons in schools are failing to build necessary life skills.

    “Teaching is often too theoretical,” she says. “It fails to deal with the real-life practicalities of getting help, or building the skills for pleasurable, equal and safe relationships.”

    She is calling for every school to have a planned programme which teaches pupils about “bodily boundaries, caring for one another, feelings and emotions”.

    A Department for Education spokeswoman said it had given £100,000 to the Personal Social Health Education (PSHE) Association to help schools improve staff training and promote the teaching of consent.

    “Schools must teach pupils about how the law applies to sexual relationships so that they understand concepts such as sexual consent,” she said, adding that the department recently consulted on a guide for teachers on the concept of consent.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25637566

    Mark Halstead and Sue Waite
    ‘Love and Trust’: Making
    Space for Feelings in Sex
    Education

    “In the second of two reports on the sexual
    attitudes and values of 9 and 10 year-olds, the
    connections between spiritual, emotional and
    sexual development are explored…”

    http://sheu.org.uk/sites/sheu.org.uk/files/imagepicker/1/eh212mh.pdf

    Now is that actually education or indoctrination?

  62. Mahons

    Not sure what you mean by that as the specific idea that they/she/I am advocating is not specious but actually very profound.

    BTW I was emphasising the bounds of what I was talking about so as to be clear that it was not the set up organisation or any other message it may have.

    A stopped watch tells the right time at least once a day. (In fact more often than many working watches).

  63. I haven’t read all the comments but based on a quick skim, I agree with Aileen. Requiring a child to kiss/hug someone can be detrimental and lead to a child not trusting their own instincts…which, in turn, could lead to submissive behavior and then sexual abuse. This is nothing new.

  64. Blimey, 70+ comments on “to kiss or not to kiss”.

    Kiss ’em I say, and if they don’t like it, smack ’em.

  65. A stopped watch tells the right time at least once a day.

    I no longer work 😀 😀 😀

    You must be right at once a day then… 🙂

    I’ll get me coat.

  66. Well what a heated debate this has been over what is essentially making a mountain out of a molehill. I’m with Mahons on this one. It is ridiculous to compare “Give granny a kiss” with “Let that dirty old man grope you” and it is deeply patronising nonsense to believe that children will not know the difference. There are much more relevant and necessary areas of sex education and responsibility that can be taught to children without making a potential sex problem out of a phenomenon that isn’t remotely connected with sexual violence.

  67. Is this such a problem in real life?

    If so, does it require government involvement?

    If it does require government involvement in its solution, what qualifies Lucy Emmerson to be part of that process?

  68. Colm,
    In a way all the important stuff was said much earlier. It wasn’t until I actually looked into what the SEF stood for, I realised that there is an agenda behind all of this, and it isn’t so much about happy well adjusted children and their close relatives as it is about non judgmental help for children who may be embarking on sexual relationships.
    How else can we explain the last quote from Mark Halstead,

    Mark Halstead and Sue Waite
    ‘Love and Trust’: Making
    Space for Feelings in Sex
    Education

    “In the second of two reports on the sexual
    attitudes and values of 9 and 10 year-olds, the
    connections between spiritual, emotional and
    sexual development are explored…”

    http://sheu.org.uk/sites/sheu.org.uk/files/imagepicker/1/eh212mh.pdf

  69. Then the child is sentenced to read the Sex Ed Forum’s newsletter which is a grave punishment.

    And who speaks for the elderly? Arthritic Pensioners forced to high-five rambunctious five year olds who insist on high-fiving their frail hands? How can one make light of this profound problem?

  70. mairin

    It’s a matter of common sense and degree. There can hardly be a child anywhere on earth who hasn’t awkwardly kissed or hugged a relative at the instigation of parental encouragement to demonstrate a sign of affection/love/gratitude and nothing malicious or sexual or nasty is meant by it. It has always occurred and it isn’t a problem or an issue. It’s just a part of the nature of how children are with parents, grandparents and other relatives. Of course if a parent becomes seriously forceful and angry and punishing towards the reluctant child then that is wrong, but that then becomes a different problem of real abuse and parent bullying and is far removed from the everyday annoying but well meant gentle pressure that mums and dads put on reluctant kids when older relatives are visiting.

    I think this woman has put a spotlight on something harmless that simply detracts from many many other areas of real abuse and problems that children and adults should be learning to deal with.

  71. Very important lesson to learn during the developmental stages: A child’s body is their own to be respected and protected.

  72. Agit8ed

    I don’t share your “sinister conspiracy” theory about sex education and in fact I much prefer the open and honest and liberal attitude to sex rather than the historic and deeply hypocritical “sweep it under the carpet and pretend it’s not happening” conservative attitude to such things, but I do think this woman has made a ‘problem’ out of an innocent part of generational relationships.

  73. If there is no crisis, one must be invented.

    Bring Mike Nifong up from North Carolina and have him open an investigation against all grandparents. They are guilty until proven innocent.

  74. Maybe a lot of people here don’t have young children? I remember discussing this in the 80s…then again I’ve been involved with survivors of child sex abuse for a very long time.

  75. “Walter, this isn’t the guy who built the railroads man”, sorry a Big Lebowski quote needed here.

    No one is suggesting children perform sex acts on their aged relations or that they shouldn’t know what their personal space is. This dingbat is taking a serious problem and applying the illogic of pseudo-science for the benefit of mouth-breathing mongoloids.

  76. I’ve often found the sure sign of a good idea is the lengths people go to misinterpret and misunderstand it.

    Here we have David suggesting the Ms. E is making kissing a grannie equivalent to sexual abuse,
    Mike say she is trying to prevent him kissing his grandchildren,
    Phantom thinks she’s suggesting that “every adult in an adult/child interaction is to be treated as a potential molester”,
    Colm thinks it that there’s something “malicious or sexual or nasty” about kissing granddad,
    someone else thinks she’s saying children should not kiss their grandparents,
    God knows what Agit8ed thinks…

    Whereas she neither said nor suggested anything of the kind. Her message was, I thought, quite straightforward.

  77. Colm

    Well what a heated debate this has been over what is essentially making a mountain out of a molehill. I’m with Mahons on this one. It is ridiculous to compare “Give granny a kiss” with “Let that dirty old man grope you and it is deeply patronising nonsense to believe that children will not know the difference.

    That is not the point. The point is setting a pattern of suppressing their discomfort to avoid censure embarrassment.

    There are much more relevant and necessary areas of sex education and responsibility that can be taught to children without making a potential sex problem out of a phenomenon that isn’t remotely connected with sexual violence.

    Lowering an individual’s defences against unwanted physical contact can lead to problems later on.
    I don’t know how widespread an issue this is for men but the pressure to suppress your instincts re physical contact can be a major one for women.

    It’s a matter of common sense and degree. There can hardly be a child anywhere on earth who hasn’t awkwardly kissed or hugged a relative at the instigation of parental encouragement to demonstrate a sign of affection/love/gratitude and nothing malicious or sexual or nasty is meant by it.

    Again there is a difference between encouragement and persuasion although the can overlap. Encouragement as long as it is no more than suggestion is fine, Persuasion isn’t and that is regardless of there being nothing malicious or sexual intended.

    It has always occurred and it isn’t a problem or an issue.

    It can often be if it is persuasion

    It’s just a part of the nature of how children are with parents, grandparents and other relatives. Of course if a parent becomes seriously forceful and angry and punishing towards the reluctant child then that is wrong, but that then becomes a different problem of real abuse and parent bullying and is far removed from the everyday annoying but well meant gentle pressure that mums and dads put on reluctant kids when older relatives are visiting.

    It can be harmful.

  78. Phantom, on January 8th, 2014 at 10:27 PM Said:

    If there is no crisis, one must be invented.

    Precisely.

    State interference and control, from cradle to grave.

  79. No I’m not Colm. What an asinine accusation. I’m talking about talking about teaching children their bodies are their own.

  80. Colm

    Then you are trivialising child sex abuse if you compare it to this.

    She isn’t she is pointing out that this can deminish the child’s defences against abuse in the future.

    That is the extreme end of the spectrum. Along the way are those who find it difficult to be assertive about unwanted contact.

  81. Noel – Ms Emmerson can be hung with the simple reading of her own words. It is you who is not understanding them.

  82. I wonder how many responses survey said I had to kiss grandma which is why I have allowed strangers to sexually assault me. If only I had high-fived her instead, I would be well adjusted enough to run a Sex Ed Forum.

  83. /Ms Emmerson can be hung with the simple reading of her own words. It is you who is not understanding them.//

    Mahons, every one of the bits and commenters I quoted is a misunderstanding of what she said.

    I can explain each to you if you like.

    They can argue with what she really said if they want (or can they?). There should be no need for this army of straw men.

  84. There isn’t an army of straw men, what Emmerson advocated is ridiculous and was correctly pointed out as so by me and others. But if you don’t see it I doubt I can explain it to you.

  85. Mahons

    I wonder how many responses survey said I had to kiss grandma which is why I have allowed strangers to sexually assault me. If only I had high-fived her instead, I would be well adjusted enough to run a Sex Ed Forum.

    I really hope that you don’t actually expect that every (or even most) victim of sexual abuse knows of every factor that undermined his ability to be assertive with an abuser.

  86. mairin/aileen

    Of course children should be taught their bodies are their own and they should made confident and unembarrassed to confront or speak to someone who will confront unwanted sexual and physical contact. However to put in the mind of a child the idea that an embarrassing kiss from granny or being asked to give an Aunt/Uncle a fairwell hug is anywhere on the same level as sex abuse is much more damaging to a child’s view of the world and the adults in it.

    For a child to think that rejecting Granny’s kisses is part of the same level of personal sexual protection as shouting out about a flasher or groper is a sad and I think harmful and wrongfull way of educating young children about the relationships and interractions they should be having with the adults in their lives. Such attitudes will make children believe that there is a predatory sexual nature to every adult’s behaviour towards them and that is not psychologically healthy or an accurate way of giving children a balanced safe but trusting and happy upbringing.

  87. Colm

    However to put in the mind of a child the idea that an embarrassing kiss from granny or being asked to give an Aunt/Uncle a fairwell hug is anywhere on the same level as sex abuse is much more damaging to a child’s view of the world and the adults in it.

    and who is advocating putting this in the child’s mind?

  88. //There isn’t an army of straw men, //

    Well, how many did I list? 6, or 7? (note, I didn’t include you)

    Each one of them is a misrepresentation of what she said.

    Again, take one or some or all that you think is right and I’ll explain how it isn’t.
    (and it won’t take me long)

    I also don’t like her words; I think the idea is right, for reasons explained above. Others don’t – fair enough, but the lengths people went to misinterpret what she said, apart from the times when they attack her and her organisation, show they have very little to offer by way of argument.

    It’s a bad state if even Colm misses the point, but just above, for example, he’s arguing that someone “put in the mind of a child the idea that an embarrassing kiss from granny or being asked to give an Aunt/Uncle a fairwell hug is anywhere on the same level as sex abuse”.

    NOBODY EVER SAID THAT!
    Nobody ever remotely suggested that a kiss from grannie is like sex abuse, and certainly not that you should tell your child that it is!
    This is pure madness (if fun to watch)

  89. Aileen

    No it isn’t a straw man argument. This woman is saying that the issue of awkward ‘granny kissing’ is something that parents should stop and children should be taught the ‘right’ to refuse as part of the whole procedure of sex protection education and I am saying that in my view this is tainting and making a potential sex protection problem out of a wholly innocent phenomenon that is nothing to do with the real issue of child sex exploitation and abuse of power. You may disagree with me but it is what I believe and I am not seeking to make ‘straw man’ or ‘trolling’ arguments about this.

  90. //That is such a major straw man and you don’t normally go in for that.//

    Exactly. This is getting real interesting all of a sudden.
    How come otherwise rational and sensible people are now suddenly with this topic unable to understand the simplest of sentence?

    VERY suspicious….. 🙂

  91. Noel

    If nobody ever remotely suggested that the issue of AWKWARD granny kissing (different to a kiss from granny) is connected to sex abuse then why is this woman mentioning it in the context of sexual exploitation education ? Why did she even feel the need to mention it ?

  92. Perhaps Noel (and Aileen and Mairin) you just don’t seem able to understand the point I am making.

  93. Colm

    No it isn’t a straw man argument. This woman is saying that the issue of awkward ‘granny kissing’ is something that parents should stop and children should be taught the ‘right’ to refuse as part of the whole procedure of sex protection education

    Right taking that as true that she said that. (I haven’t checked as it doesn’t interest me). Where in THIS is there anything about TELLING THE CHILD that not being made to kiss granny is anything to do with sex (protection or anything else)?

    I am not for one moment suggesting that you would deliberately create a straw man but you don’t usually create them unintentionally either.

    .

  94. //Why did she even feel the need to mention it ?//

    Look, she said and meant:

    It is wrong to force a child (or for a child to feel obliged) to kiss and be kissed with a relative when he doesn’t want to.

    but WHY, you will ask?

    Because (she also explained this) a child may become accustomed to putting aside his feelings and instinct regarding physical contact in kissing, touching etc. He may learn that when an adult wants to hug and kiss him, he should oblige because it’s the right thing to do.

    Note: there is no need to paint some scenario of child abuse for your child. Merely letting him follow his instince in these situations is enough.

    It’s quite simple, and it’s a very long way from (i) putting in the mind of a child (ii) the idea that an embarrassing kiss from granny or being asked to give an Aunt/Uncle a fairwell hug is anywhere on the same level as sex abuse.

    Neither of which she remotely suggested.

  95. I’m going to have to participate sparingly; I had surgery this morning and was knocked out for a few hours so I’m still feeling a little groggy and have to keep comments short but I believe she’s referring to a pattern of behavior and not a one-off during a child’s formative years. She’s talking about kids learning life-long and life saving boundaries.

  96. Colm

    If nobody ever remotely suggested that the issue of AWKWARD granny kissing (different to a kiss from granny) is connected to sex abuse then why is this woman mentioning it in the context of sexual exploitation education ? Why did she even feel the need to mention it ?

    Because giving a child any message that they should tolerate unwanted physical contact to, say, please an adult, be considered a good boy/girl and.or that pressure to do this is acceptable, can be counter productive in getting that child to be assertive about what they tolerate in future.

  97. Thanks, Aileen. It was just arthroscopic knee surgery; nothing like what happened to me in October…thank God!

  98. This post should perhaps have been titled:

    Oh Ye Cannie Shove Yer Grannie Off Yer Knee

    Goodnight all.

  99. Its too late for me to explain fully, but in a nutshell I think the well intentioned and entirely lovingly innocent habit of granny kissing Johnnie even as he squirms is a healthy part of good loving intergenerational relationships and children who have that in their lives are lucky. It is the children in cold dysfunctional unloving family situations who are more at risk in many ways and this woman has made this a problem where I don’t believe it is at all.

    PS – Hope you’re knee gets better soon mairin. It might help if granny kisses it 😉

    Good night all 🙂

  100. It is wrong to force a child (or for a child to feel obliged) to kiss and be kissed with a relative when he doesn’t want to.

    But where did they get the evidence that this is what happens to such an extent that it requires a piece of advice from the Sex Education Forum?
    This is the sort of thing that might come up in a woman’s own or family magazine…

    “My little Kyle (aged 3) doesn’t like kissing his auntie Mary goodbye after a visit. Auntie Mary is quite upset.
    Should I be concerned?
    Maureen of Watford.
    ps Kyle says her breath smells…

  101. No I’m not Colm. What an asinine accusation. I’m talking about talking about teaching children their bodies are their own.

    mairin2
    Who do you think should teach that though?
    In ages past there was acute embarrassment about sex, but people still managed to have and raise children.
    I had about a five minute talk with my Dad about sex (and I initiated it!) He was quite uncomfortable talking about it, but he had five children and had spent years and years at sea..
    How DID we all survive?
    I worked with sexually abused children too, They are the ones work needs to be done with. By churning out all this SEF stuff
    (on good salaries too!)
    it simply creates more problems by awakening and alarming children who were in blissful ignorance until the thought police marched in..
    So it becomes a vicious circle that only they profit from
    Perpetual Employment!

  102. I thought this kissing wrinklies thread had died. Time to put randy granny back to bed 😉

  103. Colm,
    it ain’t over ’til the fat lady swings.. 🙂
    and anyway, no one has convinced me I’m wrong yet.

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