43 2 mins 11 yrs

What could be more normal than for a child to be brought up with two mums or two dads?

Gay couples in NI are denied the chance to adopt children because of outdated legislation, the High Court has heard. The Human Rights Commission oppose a bid to delay a legal challenge with potential significance for unmarried and civil partnership couples. Judicial review proceedings have been brought in an attempt to introduce new laws to bring NI into line with the rest of the UK.The commission claims the current arrangements here are discriminatory. It is backed in its case by a lesbian woman who wants her partner to be allowed to adopt her biological son.

I am not in the LEAST surprised that this challenge is backed by the NI Human Rights Commission. After all, it’s new Chairman, Father Michael O’Flaherty has form on this;

“A vocal advocate of gay rights, Professor O’Flaherty was central to the creation of the ‘Yogyakarta Principles’, a document which sets out sweeping and detailed recommendations about advancing homosexual and transsexual rights. Among its many recommendations is the introduction of gay adoption, the right of prisoners to have “gender-reassignment treatments”, the use of schools to ensure that children are educated to have “understanding of and respect for…diverse sexual orientations and gender identities”, positive discrimination to favour gay individuals and the suggestion that freedom of expression may have to be limited to protect gay rights.”

Got that? With O’Flaherty now in position, we can expect to see the entire Gay Rights agenda remorselessly advanced, care of the taxpayer. The fabric of our society will continue to be warped out of all perpsective – so, no real change then.

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43 thoughts on “GAY ADOPTION…

  1. David,

    Thank Thor for that. I thought you’d been neglecting your close monitoring of the LGBT community 🙂

  2. “Don’t forget Odin.”

    Fat* chance of that. Christmas is on its merry way:

    Odin was recorded as leading a great Yule hunting party through the sky. Two books from Iceland, the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century from earlier sources, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, describe Odin as riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir that could leap great distances, giving rise to comparisons to Santa Claus’s reindeer.

    Further, Odin was referred to by many names in Skaldic poetry, some of which describe his appearance or functions; these include Síðgrani, Síðskeggr, Langbarðr, (all meaning “long beard”) and Jólnir (“Yule figure”).

    According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw, or sugar, near the chimney for Odin’s flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir’s food with gifts or candy.

    This practice, she claims, survived in Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization and can be still seen in the modern practice of the hanging of stockings at the chimney in some homes.

    *The myth of Odin’s obesity is no more than that, a vile rumour concocted by a corpulent and envious troll 🙂

  3. A lot of Thor’tful comments being made. Odin had a ‘Fulla’ figure? That’s ‘Od’.

    We WILL have homosexual parents of both sexes. What it does for the children or the traditional family doesn’t matter.
    Once you make personal freedom of expression an absolute, there is no turning back.

  4. He’s called Woody in Toy Story.

    But re the topic, I personally know at least eight straight couples who are, to a man and woman, shite parents. My heart goes out to their kids.

    So why should LGBT parents be any less capable? To believe they are unsuitable is to be, er, prejudiced.

    BTW has anyone else been following The Impressions Show with the great Jon Culshaw doing Elton John? At one point “David Furnish” complains that the baby needs changing. “Right, let’s go to Milan,” says “Elton” 🙂

  5. Richard,
    “To believe they are unsuitable is to be, er, prejudiced.”

    SO one can’t hold a differing opinion on a politically correct topic; one can only be “prejudiced”??
    That’s a bit Orwellian!

  6. Agit8ed,

    Do please check out the meaning of the word. Hint: “pre” and “judge”. Hence my “er”.

  7. Richard,
    I must be having an alzheimer moment. I am pretty darn sure I know what ‘prejudge’ means, I am not so sure i understand your point – despite Colm’s helpful homily.. 😉

  8. Agit8ed

    Let me be so bold as to try and answer for Richard. If you think same sex couples should not be allowed to adopt purely becasue they are same sex couples, then you are pre-judging them on a single premis rather than investigating their parental abilities as individuals and then post-judging them. Hence the term prejudiced.

  9. I thought that’s what he meant!
    However as you well know, I disagree. The example does not prove the case. He is quite right about there being some lousy parents out there. People who shouldn’t be allowed to have children. BUT for me the biological, evolutionary and religious arguments still stand.
    However, in the interests of ‘Colmic harmony’ I am not going down that well worn route again. Let others take up the cudgels on behalf of us “traditionalists”.

  10. Agit8ed,

    Yes, Colm made the point for me. Thanks, Colm!

    I can honestly say that I’m neutral on the issue of same-sex parentage. Reason being that although there are two gay couples and one lesbian couple in my circle of acquaintances, none has children.

    However, I do not understand the “religious arguments”. To me they smack of prejudice and intolerance, pure and simple. If you can point me to an example or two of a same-sex couple being poor parents then I’ll rethink my neutrality.

  11. Richard,
    Colm knows my views on this, but as you are new..
    It isn’t a matter of “show me an example”.
    My wife and I worked with sexually abused children in care for many years. There are some horrible and stoopid people out there, who ‘manufacture’ children for their own vile purposes.
    No argument.
    But that is an issue of morality, of role modelling or ability; not historical or biological reality. In order to thrive children need food, security, nurture – and especially as they reach puberty- they need role models.
    Why? So that they know how to function as a female or male adult. They cannot get that from two mummies or two daddies.

    Historically there was no way two homosexuals or two lesbians could physically have children. And nothing has changed. No matter how lovingly or vigorously a man “makes love”£ to another man, his partner is not going to get pregnant. Likewise two lesbians. It is out of the natural order, and most if not all religions recognise that fact.

    Only “new revised Christianity” has corrupted the basic tenet of Christian “love” to mean “acceptance and inclusivity”.
    You won’t find this in any other major religion.

  12. Agit8ed,

    This thread concerns same-sex adoption not parenting.

    Since you haven’t shown me an example of children being disadvantaged by same-sex adoptive parents, you may wish to check out this article: Phoenix gay dads adopt, raise 12 happy kids.

    And finally, what’s your position on artificial limbs and other body parts? Do they also contravene your “natural order”? In other words would you tell a person who’s born less than complete: “Tough shit. It’s God’s will. Nothing anybody can or should do.”

  13. A child is best served by having a stable and caring father and mother.

    If that option is available, you don’t need to search any further.

  14. Steven and Roger Ham wanted a family. And each of their sons and daughters was desperate for one. But bringing together this family wasn’t easy.

    “We had to fight to get them,” Roger says.

    “We had to fight to get them all,” Steven says.

    Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/azliving/articles/2011/05/02/20110502gay-dads-ham-family-12-adopted-kids.html#ixzz1eGfiQ4r1
    “In Arizona, two men can’t be married, nor adopt children together..

    I read the article. In the organisation we worked for, there were homosexual and lesbian workers who loved kids. No problem with that.
    Regarding this article, you have to bear in mind that children want to be loved and to belong. They don’t tend to be discriminating, their little instincts kick in and they know who cares for them, and who doesn’t.
    What is disingenuous is this bit..

    “..And each of their sons and daughters was desperate for one…”
    When I first read it I thought it was referring to their children from a first heterosexual marriage. Then I realised it meant sons and daughters in the legal/PC sense.
    You see my wife and I have fostered children, and as a heterosexual male without kids, I loved it! But I would never refer to them as my kids. Not even my wife’s children have been allowed to refer to me as Dad or StepDad, or GrandDad. I always tell them they have a Dad, and I have no wish to replace him, and I’ll tell you why Richard.
    Because I recognise that blood ties run as deep if not deeper than nurturing ties. We both saw this amongst the kids we worked with. No matter how awfully their real/biological parents had treated them, the child never lost their love and hope that perhaps one day things might change. Even the slightest kind parental word was enough to set that kid up for the day, and no matter how much the carer loved and provided for that child, it would round on them and say,
    “YOU’RE not my Mum/Dad!”

  15. Agit8ed,

    ““YOU’RE not my Mum/Dad!”

    Tell me about it; that’s exactly what our cats say. I can understand the female, who strayed into our home one day and never left, but we reared the male from the time he was six weeks old 🙁

  16. Boom Boom!!

    ( I poured my heart out over a very vexed, emotional and difficult issue, and you tell me about your cats??)

    Why did I bother.

  17. Agit8ed,

    Eine Katse ist auch ein Mensch!

    But seriously, what can I say that hasn’t been said a million times before and by abler debaters?

    I can only repeat my neutral stance on this. Until somebody shows me otherwise then I’ll go on believing that same-sex adoptive parents can give a child all the love and attention it needs.

  18. OK Agit8ed,

    I will respond specifically to your ‘blood ties’ argument. I think it is rubbish and reduces intelligent humans to the level of unthinking instinctively operational animals. I love my dad and my late mum not because of some sense that they ‘are my blood’ but because they are the 2 adults who reared me and gave me a family home from the moment I was aware of my own existence . I loves them as I know them , not because they were the providers of my original egg and sperm cell. I really cannot see any reason to change that opinion if I was to discover that technically I wasn’t created by them .

    If I found out tomorrow that I wasn’t actually gestated in my mother’s womb or that it wasn’t my dad’s sperm that created me it would not make the slightest difference to the love I feel for them. They are and will always be my only mum and dad and the only ones I will love. Biological discoveries cannot alter that. If I was told I had different biological parents that I had never know I cannot imagine feeling any desire to discover them and cannot understand anyone else being so desirous to do so either.

  19. Richard,
    I think you are wrong, but as they say,
    “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

    I don’t know what you’ve done in life, but I’ve had a pretty broad brushful of experience. Dragging cats into the discussion is kind of weird. Not to say I can’t be wrong.
    Whatever, Richard.
    Peace, man!
    (kinda groovy ending, doncha think?)

  20. Cosmic Colm,
    Because you and I have often discussed similar issues,and I hold you in relatively high esteem I don’t see any positive reason for going down this route with you.

    I would point out that thousands and thousands of adults adopted as children can’t be wrong, when they still express a curiosity about their birth/biological parents.

    You had parents who loved you. You weren’t given up for adoption or disowned, so you can’t speak for people who have.

    You didn’t have as I did, a mother who admitted she didn’t love her kids or who wished she hadn’t been a mother. I assume you didn’t have a mother who would beat you or hit you with whatever was handy.. I and my brothers and sisters did, and I have the scars to prove it.
    I assume you didn’t live in a household where your parents would physically attack each other, so that one of us had to run to phone box outside the local shop to get the police in…

    So on this aspect of the discussion I can’t go along with what you say Colm.

  21. Agit8ed

    But maybe without realising it, you are actually going along with and supporting my argument. It is experiences and reltaionships that matter, not the act of procreation. I am very sorry that you had the experiences with your parents that you did. I don’t want to give the impression that my upbringing was idyllic, it certainly wasn’t. My parents argued a lot and I always sided mith my mum as my dad was a heavy drinker and the arguments always stemmed from his mood when drinking, but my point was, your parents mean something to you because they are the adults in your life. If they bring you up well and you have a happy home it’s magical, but even if it’s not a happy one you will still love them because they are the parents in your family home not for biological reasons. By the same token if a child is adopted by a loving couple and has a happy secure home with them, THEY are his parents and the ones he should love and cherish, not the ones who just happened to physically produce him. I don’t pretend to speak for anyone else but myself, and for me it is nurture that counts, not nature.

  22. No, Colm.
    Probably as you and your brother have done, we siblings discussed our upbringing and the relationship between mum and dad, and why it was the way it was -probably ad nauseam!
    My young sister used to say she wished our parents had divorced and it would have saved everyone a lot of unhappiness. But old clever clogs here said,
    NO! Even if our parents had divorced there is no evidence that things would have been better for us kids….
    Also we had the sense of belonging through extended family relationships, family history (bloody Irish and Scots in there somewhere..)
    The two eldest were emotionally scarred by their upbringing, the youngest three all went on to marry and except me, had children.
    All it proves is that there are a lot of screwed up heterosexual families out there, but that doesn’t prove the case for gay adoption.
    I am now 65, love my wife, still love being around kids, have a few gay friends who pretend to be shocked at my old fashioned views; still kind to old people and Yanks….. 🙂

  23. Old Chinese saying goes :- ‘Tis a wise man who knows his own Father!’…

    Don’t understand what it means, – but I get on very well with the milkman!…

  24. I know gay couples who are bringing up children…the weans are no worse for the wear. The children may not have been adopted at all (and languished in foster care) but for these truly loving folks. So I have to say I side with Colm on this issue. But I agree with 8 on some level having been raised in a home where abusive behavior abounded. When I left the nest, I LEFT the nest (at a rather young age). And then, as an adult, I discovered my parents had a child I never knew about…she was adopted out (and in my opinion, dodged a bullet). We found each other well into our adult years and it’s been great having a sister who is so like me in many ways. For whatever reasons, she (for obvious reasons) and I don’t a tight attachment with the bio family but do with one another. She grew up in a wealthy family, much smaller than her biological one but far more peaceful and supportive. She didn’t look for her bio family until her parents passed away. Anyway…I wouldn’t mind having same sex parents…Agit8ed and Earnest…ADOPT ME! 😉

  25. Mairin,
    Isn’t that strange.. we had a half sister we never knew! She was given up for adoption. I tried to trace her, but didn’t get very far. She is probably dead by now, but sensitive soul that I am, I often wondered how she must have felt about her origins.

    Don’t side with Colm – he has enough supporters on this site as it is.
    (Actually he is one of my favourites..)

    Sadly I don’t think Ernest and I would work as adoptive parents. We would never agree about who was going to play ‘Dad’! And anyway, Ernest is far too grumpy. I am incredibly good natured, handsome and still have all my own teeth and hair.

    Ernest by contrast, has very few original features left, falls asleep at the drop of a hat and can be cantankerous. He is however very rich -so I would hedge your bets if I was you!

  26. You’re too funny, Agit8ed. You always make me smile. There’s something important “about being Earnest” too. (oh oh…Oscar Wilde reference…yikes!) If what you allege is true, then somehow he hasn’t been able to hide all his badness. His goodness shines through. And yeah, Colm is the probably one of the nicest people I’ve Never met. He’s always so logical when he argues/discusses things…dammit!

  27. Oh and try again to find your half-sister. The first time my sister found me, I sort of blew her off, but she persisted in a gentle sort of way. I’m sure she’ll think you’re gr8…;-)

  28. When I first frequented ATW Colm would be the one with the double entendres and the silly jokes, – and I frequently had to chide him for it. His ability to completely destroy the theme of a thread was awesome, I used to liken him to the ‘court Jester,

    However, after much tutelage under the watchful eye of several of the ‘grown ups’ here, and no doubt experiencing some of life’s ups and downs for himself, he has matured into an often very readable commentator.

    As for this fellow Agit8ed, – never heard of him, who he? since he has appeared he has caused all sorts of trouble, even going so far as to upset Troll, Phantom and P.Moore. I have several times been tempted to drop the Proprietor a line re his disruptive behaviour, he quite spoils the otherwise tranqil ambience of ATW… 🙂

  29. I see this is turning into an appreciation of Colm thread, albeit with some barbed praise from Ernest. It is all much appreciated. Surely the important thing is that we don’t, indeed we shouldn’t all have the same approach to commenting, and should happily appreciate each persons differnt styles as well as opinions. Yes, I hold a reputation here for being a court jester and often the first to throw in a silly joke or smutty line, but it’s not as if that’s ALL I do here. Some commenters choose never to attempt any levity because it doesn’t suit them and they aren’t interested in that sort of commentary but surely that mix of the petty and the profound, along with detailed political debate rubbing alongside strings of personal banter as we get to know each others’ online personalities is what makes ATW so rewarding. Not every thread has to be deep debating serious issues only, and every well rounded Court has Jesters as well as Sages 😉

  30. Colm,

    All you have to do now is to learn how to accept an honest compliment gracefully!

    Or perhaps you prefer flattey?

  31. Colm!
    I agree with your comments. I like the fact that there is room for (handsome and dashing)old fools like me, smart people and professionals, and people from other cultures too.
    It all helps to provide a cross section of society, the more international the better. The American aspect is particularly valuable because it is still the leading Western nation, with enough H bombs to go round for all of us to hang one or two of our festive Christmas trees. 🙂
    Those with academic backgrounds provide a certain gravitas to proceedings, but it is the pompous or humourless souls who unwittingly set themselves up for a ribbing -or worse.
    Allan of Aberdeen is the only one in a category all to himself.. 😉

  32. Colm,

    No, – it was the three pointed hat with bells on, – it really didn’t go with the red patent stilettoes!…

  33. mairin2,
    Thank’ee kindly for your flattering words.
    My wife says that what with,
    My garden shed rented out to illegal migrants,
    A back garden overrun with the goats left behind as rent by some Somalian,
    ..and polishing my new solar panels,
    …and finishing my part built 300′ wind turbine kit from B&Q, (it’s the marvel of our neighbourhood! (People often send me comments wrapped around bricks… I keep all the windows open now, it don’t half get cold!!)

    …I wouldn’t have any time left for looking after some dewy eyed “Jezebel” I found on the internet…. 😉

  34. How dare you characterize me as a dewey-eyed Jezebel…my eyes aren’t dewey…maybe a little crossed, bloodshot, and twitchy, but I assure you, this Jezebel’s eyes aren’t dewey at all! And Earnest, can I borrow the shoes?! I like shiny pretty things…;-)

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