124 2 mins 9 yrs

There was a pro-Morsi rally held by Palestinians on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem last Friday. The eagle eyed MSM seems to have missed it but Elder of Ziyon has the goodies and here are some the excerpts from the speeches made;

“Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar.
Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.
Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed.
Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May Britain be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Britain be destroyed.
Palestinian cleric: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.”

Remember, all these people want is piece. A piece of Israel. All of it, in fact.

Meanwhile, Obama is using the EU to browbeat Israel into conceding the demands of these thugs OR facing a nuclear Iran.

Funny old world….

Click to rate this post!
[Total: 0 Average: 0]

124 thoughts on “GIVE THESE PEOPLE A STATE, RIGHT?

  1. And yet and yet..
    According to some websites
    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3847/egypt-punishes-palestinians
    the Egyptians are annoyed with the Palestinians for interfering in their internal affairs.

    And do you remember this chap who said that Palestinians are actually Egyptians and Saudis…?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELpd_hLoUY

    Whatever one believes about the State of Israel vII, it remains the only democratic country in the Middle East, and the only one with its own thriving LGBT association..

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/07/gay-pride-2013-tel-aviv-israel-pictures_n_3402967.html
    Surely a mark of liberal democratic freedom?
    Surely something Goyish Gays all over the world can rejoice in??

  2. Elder of Ziyon
    Original reporting and analysis about Israel and the war against Islamic and Arab terror

    Ah yes, nice impartial, unpartisan blog there. Still, when it comes to the liberal MSM, you just cannot believe them… right?

  3. Paul,
    would one be correct in assuming that any blog that disagrees with your position is biased?

  4. Simon says me followers are all stupid ugly monkeys..alloa rovers! Crowd says me followers are all stupid ugly monkeys alloa rovers! Love it!

  5. Palestinian cleric: “Allah Akbar. May Britain be destroyed”.
    Crowd: “Allah Akbar. The EU’s doing it for us”.

  6. This is good news:

    >>the new European Commission’s new guideline for the alliance to distinguish between the state of Israel and territories outside the 1967 Green Line for the purpose of co-funding projects and grants.

    This guideline is grounded in the EU’s fixed determination that East Jerusalem, Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan were illegally occupied by Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israel war. The “settlements” housing more than a half a million Jews are likewise deemed illegal. Therefore, from Jan. 1, 2014, any Israeli entity seeking European project funding or grants will be obliged to declare it has no connection, direct or indirect, with a “settlement.” <<

  7. Oh right.

    The EU (meaning, European tax-victims) are forced to fund Israeli projects. That keeps a few parasites jetting off for some winter sun.

    Back to work everyone.

  8. “No, one wouldn’t be correct.”

    🙂

    I’ll make an Englishman of you yet, dear boy!

  9. I’ll make an Englishman of you yet, dear boy!

    Good luck with that one old chap. 😉

  10. Any criticism of Israel’s occupation of Jerusalem or anywhere else should only be addressed when liberals and the UN, grow big enough balls to challenge China’s subjugation of Tibet, China’s continued peaceful colonisation of Africa, and assorted Muslim Jihadi attacks on non Islamic (mainly Christian) populations.

  11. “Good luck with that one old chap. ”

    Paul.
    We none of us can determine what we are born into. Some have good fortune, some not.
    I extend my commiserations.
    😉

  12. sorry I have only one comment about our Pallie friends, and it’s the only sane one.

    BOMB THEM, and when the dust settles BOMB THEM AGAIN…… 🙂

  13. Trollio,
    You can’t just go around bombing people.
    I reckon your pate mounted solar panel is affecting your circuits…
    btw,
    WHERE’S my email?

  14. Extend away, I wounldn’t have it any other way.

    Any criticism of Israel’s occupation of Jerusalem or anywhere else should only be addressed when liberals and the UN, grow big enough balls to challenge China’s subjugation of Tibet, China’s continued peaceful colonisation of Africa, and assorted Muslim Jihadi attacks on non Islamic (mainly Christian) populations

    Why should condemnation of injustice be conditional on condemnation of other injustices?

  15. Well for starters, China’s slow extermination of Tibet and Xinjiang involve many more people.

    Consistency is a fine thing.

  16. e-mails coming… I’m a bit behind.

    I don’t want to bomb everyone, just certain groups that have asked for it.

    and the pallies just keep asking

  17. “Why should condemnation of injustice be conditional on condemnation of other injustices?”

    Or,
    conversely,

    Why should a little country like Israel be condemned when a BIG country like China isn’t?

    It’s almost the same as condemning the British for making the IRA inevitable..

  18. “I don’t want to bomb everyone, just certain groups that have asked for it.”

    Oh.
    That’s alright then.
    🙂

  19. Criticizing a small Jewish state takes no courage, especially in the universities and union halls in Europe. In some cases, it rests on the centuries of anti semitism of Europe, from Aberdeen on west.

  20. //Well for starters, China’s slow extermination of Tibet and Xinjiang involve many more people. //

    But did the West and Europe set up China?

    Was China created specifically so people from Europe could live there?

    Did we give it the weapons it needed to invade Tibet and oppress the people there?

    Does the US go to the most insane lengths to give it backing any time it is criticised in the UN?

    Does the US give it USD 4 Billion per annum in military aid alone, to finance its colonising ventures?

  21. You’d think that people could walk and chew gum at the same time.

    That aggression would be bad always.

    We know the talking points.

  22. Assuming that David’s link is accurate in its reporting, one has to question the logic, perhaps even the mental health of the leadership of a people who since 1948 and even earlier have been calling for the death and destruction of another people who have not only resisted combined attempts to destroy them, they have gone on to build a thriving, free and Gay (even Goy Gay) friendly nation in the meantime.

    Now I ask you people,
    WHERE’S the logic? Why go on teaching your children to hate, to become suicide bombers, rocket firers and experts at facial disguise using a tablecloth?

    WHAT is the expected outcome if they succeed?

    Because as far as I understand it ( 🙂 )the only thing “PalestineAsWas” had going for it were a few holy sites, holy towns and nice weather.

    It was so undesirable that no one actually wanted to make it into a nation with an economy an army and a diplomatic corps and friendly relations with the Chinese or the Peoples republic of Liverpool…

    True, or not true?
    That is why the persecuted and unloved Jews were able to buy rubbishy bits of it for their communist zionist communes. Nobody really wanted the place.

    So let’s assume that perhaps the Palestinians (who according to an earlier quoted source) are really Egyptians and Saudis, prevail.
    They overcome Israel. Kill the men, rape the women, sell the kids into slavery and viciously eat the donkeys..
    Then what?

  23. Why should a little country like Israel be condemned when a BIG country like China isn’t?

    China isn’t condemned? Alright then:

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=43399&Cr=China&Cr1#.Uefl2qJFCzM

    But again, why should condemnation of injustice be conditional on condemnation of another?

    It’s almost the same as condemning the British for making the IRA inevitable..

    Well there you go again, YOU bringing the Irish element into to it again. But as you brought the subject up let me sak this question:

    Do you think the IRA would’ve existed if it hadn’t been for the British?

  24. Paul,
    I will always bring the Irish element in. I have this problem you see. Most of the Irish I have ever met and interacted with have been good people.
    Until you get round to politics and history.
    They then become irrational.

    May I remind you that it was non conformist English people who set up the colonies in the New World, not dissident Irish Catholics.
    The religiously persecuted (Huegenots etc.) who came over from Europe, settled for the most part in England, not Ireland.

    China is not seriously condemned in the moral talking shops of the world, because China like the former USSR is BIG and POWERFUL.
    Ain’t no one in the Western world going to call for an economic boycott of China like they so virtuously did
    of South Africa, because were all buying Chinese mountain bikes, electronic goods and lanterns…
    It’s easy to understand Paul.
    If you’re honest.

    Re the IRA:
    Most ordinary British people at the time had no power and no influence over what was done in their name when Ireland was invaded, colonised and to a degree messed up by our Government.
    We didn’t even have the vote Paul.

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
    Eamonn Andrews, RiverDance, Jimmy Cricket, Val Doonican, BOD and the GREAT Peter Stringer 🙂
    plus any number of ordinary Irish people are known, loved, respected and admired here on the Mainland by my people.

  25. //But again, why should condemnation of injustice be conditional on condemnation of another?//

    I think it’ll take them a while, Paul, but they’ll get there yet. 🙂

  26. S’funny.
    I thought my 1:55pm would have had the liberals baying for my blood…

  27. I don’t think it is a news flash that there are many Palestinians who engage in over the top moronic hatred of all things Israel. It is no news flash that there are many Israelis who engage in over the top moronic hatred of all things Palestinian. One can find examples all day long.

    The key to any peace there will be to get past those people, and that key involves the clear necessity of a Palestinian State. Like all good compromises, everyone will be unhappy to some degree with the result.

  28. Noel – It don’t think one should be conditioned on the other, but selective criticism can be pointed out.

  29. //Noel – It don’t think one should be conditioned on the other, but selective criticism can be pointed out.//

    But that will be relevant only if the two situations are comparable, and I think I’ve shown above that they certainly are not.

    Recogntion of the sins of the West, especially when they are being paid for by someone else, is very much part of the mainstream criticism of Israel, as far as I’m concerned. There are of course also people who just hate Israelis and Jews, but I think they can be easily recognised.

    Besides, I have a feeling the peace activists who protest against the occupation of Palestine are more or less the same people, or are very close to, those who protest against the colonisation of Tibet.

    Who would you say is more likely to go out and protest against Chinese oppression : someone like Rachael Corrie or someone like David, for whom Israel is little more than a whip for beating Muslims?

  30. China is not seriously condemned in the moral talking shops of the world

    Well actually it is perhaps it’s just not condemned to your liking?

    Re the IRA:
    Most ordinary British people at the time had no power and no influence over what was done in their name when Ireland was invaded, colonised and to a degree messed up by our Government.
    We didn’t even have the vote Paul.
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
    Eamonn Andrews, RiverDance, Jimmy Cricket, Val Doonican, BOD and the GREAT Peter Stringer
    plus any number of ordinary Irish people are known, loved, respected and admired here on the Mainland by my people.

    That was a fairly long winded amount of nothing.

    Maybe you didn’t understand the question so I’ll ask again:

    Do you think the IRA would’ve existed if it hadn’t been for the British?

  31. “Maybe you didn’t understand the question so I’ll ask again:
    Do you think the IRA would’ve existed if it hadn’t been for the British?”

    Paul,
    If I thought that the world functioned in simplistic terms of black and white, I might consider your question.
    You seriously want to tell me that the (boring and never ending rehash of the) situation in Northern Ireland is all black and white???

    You only have to read some of the longwinded threads here on ATW to realise that can’t possibly be true.
    Far more honest to say that the ONLY thing that unites many Republican/Catholic/ Sinn Fein supporters is that it’s all the fault of Great Britain, especially the English!

    Crap my boy. Pure crap.

  32. You seriously want to tell me that the (boring and never ending rehash of the) situation in Northern Ireland is all black and white???

    No, what I’d like you to tell me is if, in your opinion, the IRA would’ve existed if it hadn’t been for the British / British policy in Ireland?

    It’s a simple enough question.

  33. It’s a rubbish question Paul.
    It might make it easier for you to decide on
    “Who’s the Bogey Man?” but the reality is that life just isn’t that simple.
    That’s why on another (boring) thread people were discussing the OO and how you might kicked out for attending a Catholic funeral.
    If a man is your friend, he’s your friend. Regardless of the community he belongs to.

  34. It’s a rubbish question Paul

    Why? It seems perfectly logical to me?

    If a man is your friend, he’s your friend. Regardless of the community he belongs to

    We’re not talking about the OO, communities or friends, again,

    Do you think the IRA would’ve existed if it hadn’t been for the British?

  35. Noel – A valid point in that for some Israel is merely a whip to be used against Muslims.

    A less valid point in neglecting to recognize the elevation of Israel’s failings above all others that is pervasive among many in Europe, and not just among the traditional anti-semites. To me it is identical in error to those here in the US (and elsewhere) who fail to recognize any error of Israel.

    As for the sins of the West, I’ll take them over the sins of the East, North and South.

  36. “Why? It seems perfectly logical to me?”

    That’s because when it comes to Ireland/Northern Ireland/Sinn Fein and your community it is much easier to look for the Bogey Man, the cause of all Ireland’s ills.

    But you’re wrong.
    You have argued on other threads for the rights of the child (male female circumcision) the rights of other people to settle in ‘Auld Ireland’ the ins and outs of Republican politics, the evils of past events, etc.. That we should consider and understand the reasons why individuals make the decisions that they do.

    As I said what unites you guys is a bottom line:
    “It’s all the fault of the English!”

    It’s garbage Paul.
    I have nothing against you
    Except your logic.

  37. We’re not talking about male circumcision, ‘my community’ or what makes individuals do what they do.

    I’m simply asking your opinion on a question that was formulated in response to one of your comments;

    Do you think the IRA would’ve existed if it hadn’t been for the British?

  38. Paul.
    And it’s still a rubbish question.

    Why not have a crack at my 1:55pm instead?

  39. //A less valid point in neglecting to recognize the elevation of Israel’s failings above all others that is pervasive among many in Europe//

    As I said, one central reason is that Israel was created by Europeans for Europeans, as well as the other things I listed above that give us a responsibility for its actions that just doesn’t arise in the case of China etc.

    I honestly don’t know if people simply can’t recognise this or whether they are desperately trying to avoid it, and instead advance some much more implausible reasons that they are more comfortable with.

    It’s definitely obvious enough, and is also perfectly in line with a whole lot of other criticisms of the West’s many other babies in foreign climes.

    I mean, it’s acknowledged soon enough when Lefties complain(ed) about Marcus of the Philippines, the Shah, Mubarak etc. Then all you hear is “self-hating”, “white-guilt”, etc.

    //As for the sins of the West, I’ll take them over the sins of the East, North and South.//

    Oh, I don’t know about that. The Vikings, Australian Aboriginals and various Asians were bad enough – but they haven’t yet quite outdone the Holocaust IMO.

  40. Agi.

    I think that after your attempted obfuscation in trying to dodge the question by bringing in everything from Eamonn Andrews to male circumcision, to the OO and then trying to rubbish the logic of a question,(which was aked in response to your own comment), it’s quite obvious to anyone reading this thread what the answer you don’t want to give to a simple direct question is.

    However, it gives me no pleasure to see you squirm so you’re off the hook. This will be my last comment on that particular issue.

  41. As I said, one central reason is that Israel was created by Europeans for Europeans, as well as the other things I listed above that give us a responsibility for its actions that just doesn’t arise in the case of China etc.

    That’s a very well made point Noel.

  42. I told you the joke about the two Irish building workers who saw there was a vacancy for a foreman?

    Seamus said to Patrick,
    Im going to apply.

    Good on yez ! says Seamus.

    Patrick goes up to the boss and has an interview.
    Ten minutes later he’s back looking downcast and holding a badly swollen hand.

    Did ye get the job? asks Seamus.

    No, says Patrick. He said it requires a fair bit of commonsense and to be able to make quick snap decisions. He said Look, I’ll show you what I mean.

    He held up his hand by the wall, and says to me.
    Hit my hand Patrick!

    Well, I took a swing and he moved his hand and I punched the bloody wall.

    I don’t get it, says Seamus

    What does that have to do with common sense and snap decisions?

    Patrick sighs and says
    Okay I’ll demonstrate>
    He holds his good hand up in front of his face, and says
    Hit my hand Seamus!

    Hit me again Paul.

  43. Why do we have to have Ireland brought into every ruddy thread where it has no relevance?

  44. Noel – Well I am not sure you can blame the Holocaust on the West (unless you simply use the term as a geographical reference as opposed to a political one).

    And there are plenty of European bad actors within Europe whose transgressions do not receive the level of European Left protest that Israel does.

  45. “Why do we have to have Ireland brought into every ruddy thread where it has no relevance?”
    It’s called freedom of speech.
    You have the exclusive right not to read it.

  46. Hilairious Agi (sarcasm off)

    This Irishman goes to a building site in London looking for a job. The English foreman warns him that he can have a job if he answers some very difficult questions.

    “‘That’s OK,’ says the Irishman

    ‘You’re absolutely sure?, theyre quite difficult’ asks the foreman.

    “‘Absolutely,’ says the Irishman.

    “‘Right,’ says the foreman. ‘What’s the difference between a joist and a girder. Think carefully.’

    “Ah fer Jauzuz sake that’s an easy one” says the Irishman “Sure doesen’t everyone know that Joyce wrote Ulysses and Goethe wrote Faust?'”

  47. Why do we have to have Ireland brought into every ruddy thread where it has no relevance?

    Ask Agi.

  48. There’s still the points I raised at 1:55 to be repudiated/scorned or translated into contemporary Northern Irish politics…
    C’mon,
    I know it’s a dirty job but someone’s gotta do it.

  49. Paul,
    Never heard that one before, but I just love a good joke.

    And now for the naive or simple minded:
    The reason I often bring Irish stuff into this blog
    is because
    rightly or wrongly
    I see a certain correlation or sympathy between Northern Ireland (Peace be upon you all) and the Palestinian situation.
    In which
    Israel equates to Imperialist Britain
    and the
    poor oppressed
    and very
    misunderstood Palestinians
    equate to the Catholic/Republican/Sinn Fein Northern Irish.

    That and the fact that some people are easier to get a rise out of than others.

  50. Paul,
    no they’re not supposition.
    I think I have agreed in the past that it is understandable as to why Palestinians can feel hard done by over the jews as intruders who went on to build a State.
    I do understand that.
    Especially as for a few thousand years Jews were non citizens in Islamic countries and feared and despised as ‘Christ killers’ in European ones.

    So no one here is refuting the fact that Israel is a democratic State, that Israel has almost as many political parties as she has citizens, that Israel is the ONLY Middle Eastern State in which Gays and Lesbians are free to be
    Gays and Lesbians.
    (Something you liberal kids here say you’re all in favour of.)

    What is supposition about that Paul?

  51. Paul you’re busy demolishing my statement, here’s another joke for you.
    But don’t worry it’s a clean one..

    A Belfast man was ashamed of his accent, and decided to go to elocution lessons in London.
    Three years later he was speaking perfect BBC English, and he decided to return home and celebrate with a drink.
    He caught the Shuttle to Belfast, got a taxi into the city and walked into the first establishment he came to.
    ‘I say, old chap,’ he said to the proprietor, ‘perhaps you could furnish me with a large gin and tonic and one of your finest Havana cigars.’
    ‘You’re from around these parts, aren’t you?’ said the proprietor.
    ‘Good grief,’ said the stunned Belfast man. ‘How did you know that?’
    ‘Well, you see,’ said the proprietor, ‘this is a butcher’s.’

  52. A people who since 1948 and even earlier have been calling for the death and destruction of another people who have not only resisted combined attempts to destroy them

    Rubbish, some have called for the destruction of the state others have called for a less extreme solution. I seriously doubt ‘they’ collectively have called for the death and destruction of another people. Although I have heard some individual people call for the death and destruction of ‘they’

    Now I ask you people,
    WHERE’S the logic? Why go on teaching your children to hate, to become suicide bombers, rocket firers and experts at facial disguise using a tablecloth?

    You really believe that all Palestinians teach that to there children. Could the hate possibly come from the way they are treated in Gaza / the occupied territories etc?

    Because as far as I understand it ( )the only thing “PalestineAsWas” had going for it were a few holy sites, holy towns and nice weather.
    It was so undesirable that no one actually wanted to make it into a nation with an economy an army and a diplomatic corps and friendly relations with the Chinese or the Peoples republic of Liverpool…

    You really think that attachment to the land is based on a countries infrastructre? The Romans were much more advanced than the Britons do you agree that they should have continued occupying Britain? How do you know what Palestine would have developed into? It have just come out of the Ottoman Empire into the British Mandate and then to Zionism. It had no chance to possibly develop.

    That is why the persecuted and unloved Jews were able to buy rubbishy bits of it for their communist zionist communes. Nobody really wanted the place

    Yeah? go and read ‘Pity the Nation, the Lebanon at War’ and read about the Palestinians who still have the deeds to their peoperty after they were forcibly displaced by Zionists.

    So let’s assume that perhaps the Palestinians (who according to an earlier quoted source) are really Egyptians and Saudis, prevail.
    They overcome Israel. Kill the men, rape the women, sell the kids into slavery and viciously eat the donkeys..
    Then what?

    No, let’s not assme that let’s instead presume that you are talking hpperbolic bollocks.

    That’s why it’s full of supposition.

  53. You HAVE been working hard Paul!
    Why is it I have the (cyber) impression that you and I would get on very well despite the obvious imbalance in terms of origins, good looks and intellectual inability?

    Give me some time and I will work through your points above.
    And let me tell you,
    I wouldn’t do that for just anybody.
    😉

  54. What a sick mindset that uses a situation associated with such suffering purely as a means to get a rise out of people.

  55. While you’re waiting.

    This Irishman sittiing fishing in the Trafalger Sq fountain, two London Bobbies walk past.

    Bobby 1 to Bobby 2 “Look at that stupid Irishman fishing in a fountain that has no fish”

    Bobby 2 to Irishman “Hey Mick, have you caught many?”

    Irishman to both Bobbies “Well, including you two that makes seven today”

  56. “What a sick mindset that uses a situation associated with such suffering purely as a means to get a rise out of people.”

    😉

    I can be sicker.
    But my faith and sense of proportion prevents me.

  57. //there are plenty of European bad actors within Europe whose transgressions do not receive the level of European Left protest that Israel does.//

    I’m not sure what you mean here. There are no Europeans within the EU whose transgressions are anything as bad as Israel’s – occupying another country, ethnic cleansing of the people there, sectarian laws, constant wars, masss punishments of civilians etc etc.

    In geographical Europe of course we have Serbia, whose crimes were much worse. But that dump certainly gets no mercy from this member of the “Europpean Left”

    But there is light : Just saw this on CNN

    “An Israeli official quoted by Reuters news service said Israel agreed to a plan for peace talks based on pre-1967 borders and agreed-upon land swaps. The story also quotes the official as saying that Kerry would announce the initiative if the Palestinians were to accept it.”

  58. Paul,
    Would you believe it?
    Here I were sitting in front of the computer listening to D’Oyly Carte’s HMS Pinafore, composing a reply to your first point and off goes the broadband…

    So I will try and remember what I wrote.
    I think my first thought was that in Islam submission to the will of Allah as revealed to the Prophet Mohammed sets the scene for man’s responsibility to God.
    There is no equality of other religions. In other words, “All religions do NOT lead to God.”
    Only Islam.
    And that is why Jews and Christians living in Muslim countries were never regarded as equals or as citizens. They were tolerated, they were taxed, but they had no rights.

    Loved the joke.

  59. You’re right, Noel, but not about the last bit. There’s no ‘light’ at all. Peres make is crystal clear in his memoir that the Oslo process was never about Palestinian autonomy, and that Israel were never going to let that happen. He was the central figure in that process and is now the Israeli president. Well, he’s as good as his word.

    Just heard that Israel envoy on RTE radio, the despicable thug Boaz Modai – a guy who was caught harassing a female member of staff with creepy phone calls when he was in the Israeli Dept. of Foreign Affairs. These are the kinds of fine men they send to our shores.

  60. Second point:

    ” You really believe that all Palestinians teach that to there children. Could the hate possibly come from the way they are treated in Gaza / the occupied territories etc?”

    Well,
    Lets come at it obliquely.
    Like you when you’ve drunk too much Spanish wine…)

    In pre 1939 Germany those people who opposed Hitler on political, moral and religious grounds realised that to VOICE that opinion was to invite imprisonment or worse.
    True or not true?
    So in those days free thinking Germans had the same problem free thinking Palestinians today have, but with one major exception:

    Whereas true Christianity does not give believers the right to enslave others, deny their democratic rights or to regard them as inferior,
    Islam does.
    True or not true?
    Take your time. There are no tricks in my question. 🙂

  61. I think my first thought was that in Islam submission to the will of Allah as revealed to the Prophet Mohammed sets the scene for man’s responsibility to God.
    There is no equality of other religions. In other words, “All religions do NOT lead to God.”
    Only Islam.
    And that is why Jews and Christians living in Muslim countries were never regarded as equals or as citizens. They were tolerated, they were taxed, but they had no rights

    Words, just words.

    I have a Croat friend who moved to Tuzla, a predominately Moslem town in Bosnia. It broke her heart when she was forced by other ‘Christians’ to leave her Moslem neighbours. Aileen Quinliven also occasionally speaks about her Moslem neighbours whose children affectionately call her ‘Auntie Eileen’

    Yeah, Christians never regarded as equals.

    Come to think of it, I suggest most Moslems adhere to this edict as much as most Christians adhere to ‘thy shalt not kill’ ‘love thy neighbour’ ‘turn the othercheek’ etc.

  62. Petr, I suspected the Israelis were up to their usual procrastinating tricks when I read the “if the Palestinians were to accept it”

    //In other words, “All religions do NOT lead to God.”
    Only Islam.//

    Yeah, as if the New Testament isn’t full of declarations that only the Christian way will get you to heaven.
    It’s typical of the lunacy of Bible thumpers that even right-wing Christian groups that support Israel believe this nonsense, which excludes Jews.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html

    And as far as I know, traditional Judaism for its part holds that Christians are idolaters.

    Lunatics seldom agree.

  63. ‘In pre 1939 Germany those people who opposed Hitler on political, moral and religious grounds realised that to VOICE that opinion was to invite imprisonment or worse.
    True or not true?’

    Admittedly it took you longer than I thought but yes, the old chestnut was finally introduced.

  64. Whereas true Christianity does not give believers the right to enslave others, deny their democratic rights or to regard them as inferior,
    Islam does.
    True or not true?

    I’ll answer that if I may – it’s true.

    So too does judaism: true or not?

    Agit – There are no tricks to this question.

  65. It’s not an old chestnut Paul.

    The dilemmas facing us humans don’t change that much through history.

    It was that moral dilemma that brought me to faith as a Christian,
    and those Germans, Palestinians, Catholics, Tibetans etc etc etc who have faced the same problem had to face up to,

    “Shall I stand for the truth and die, or
    Deny the truth and live?”

  66. “Shall I stand for the truth and die, or
    Deny the truth and live?”

    Cryptic rubbish which has no bearing on the subject content of the conversation.

  67. ” I’ll answer that if I may – it’s true.
    So too does judaism: true or not?
    Agit – There are no tricks to this question. ”

    Well Hello there, my old porridge miner..

    I had this awful feeling you had finally been banned for inciting hatred and sniffing illegal substances found only in the entrails of Haggis.

    Christianity is the FULFILMENT of Judaism.
    There would be no historical, philosphical grounds for Christianity without the bedrock of Judaism.
    Judaism records the creation of mankind
    (Liberals, Atheists and assorted others can turn off and hug each other)
    Wrong choices made, and God’s premeditated solution to the problem which would involve a holy, compassionate God taking on human form, showing Adam how it should have been done and then allowing Himself to be crucified so tat we might “get out of jail free” if we observe the terms and conditions.
    Cue:
    Christianity
    as being the record of said second Adam, how He validated Himself, chose a ragbag collection of Jewish peasants (probably one or two of Irish extraction) and changed the world.
    Phewwwwwww!

  68. “Cryptic rubbish which has no bearing on the subject content of the conversation.”

    Would you say the same to Bobby Sands?

  69. You asked me
    “You really believe that all Palestinians teach that to there children. Could the hate possibly come from the way they are treated in Gaza / the occupied territories etc?”

    I tried to explain why people who didn’t accept the views of the men with guns might be faced with a dilemma.

    Accept the violence backed view or choose imprisonment or death.
    What is cryptic about that?

  70. Agit – your response of 6.18pm to my question of 6.00pm is the kind of evasive BS in which mahons takes pride. I’ll put the question in another form:

    Do jews consider themselves to be ‘chosen’ by god? Y/N

    If Y, then is their perception of those not chosen by god somewhat skewed/warped by their perception of themselves as having been chosen by god?

    Being ‘chosen’ by god is not a minor matter.

  71. Let me pose another question.
    What made you choose to go and live in a European country (Spain) as opposed to an Islamic country such as Jordan or Saudi Arabia or even Lebanon.
    Forget that your wife is Spanish, pretend you are being ethical.

  72. I tried to explain why people who didn’t accept the views of the men with guns might be faced with a dilemma.
    Accept the violence backed view or choose imprisonment or death

    You see because you want us to believe your prepositin that there is violence in Palestine because Palestinians teach their children to hate and if they don’t they will be killed by ‘men with guns’

    You refuse to even contemplate that the bitterness & resentment felt by Palestinians could be caused by the way they’ve been treated by Israel?

    What made you choose to go and live in a European country (Spain) as opposed to an Islamic country such as Jordan or Saudi Arabia or even Lebanon.
    Forget that your wife is Spanish, pretend you are being ethical

    What a ridiculous question, you know perfectly well why I came to live here however to respond to your hypothetical if i hadn’t met my wife I would most likely still be living in Ireland.

  73. Allan.
    Religious Jews unaffected by the horrors of Christian European persecution culminating in the Holocaust, might say
    Yes.
    I would say that, although I haven’t experienced the reality of persecution.

    We must examine another foundational discussion.
    Does one believe that everything we know about is the result of a happenstance or by design.
    Does Man have significance or is he an aberration of “cosmic collisions of airy -fairy star stuff'”?

    Obviously I don’t believe that.
    What do you believe?

  74. “You see because you want us to believe your preposition that there is violence in Palestine because Palestinians teach their children to hate and if they don’t they will be killed by ‘men with guns’”

    Not that at all Pauly,
    Never mentioned it.
    You might have wished I mentioned it, but go back to my 1:55 and read it again.

  75. “And BTW, I’ve been to Lebanon.”
    And so have I.
    For why and how long did you stay?

  76. Accept the violence backed view or choose imprisonment or death

    Sounds like it to me

    Beruit for nine days in 2008. Because I’d heard so much about it’s beauty.

  77. “Accept the violence backed view or choose imprisonment or death”

    You’ve misunderstood my argument.
    I was saying that all people have had to choose between standing for the truth as they see it, or going along with the prevailing view imposed by their leaders with guns and death.
    That is what I said in my 1:55. I said leadership not ordinary folk.
    So dissenting Palestinians who don’t want their kids to hate Israelis haven’t got much of a chance of getting their views heard.
    Or have you read different?

  78. Petr Tarasov –

    “Just heard that Israel envoy on RTE radio, the despicable thug Boaz Modai – a guy who was caught harassing a female member of staff with creepy phone calls when he was in the Israeli Dept. of Foreign Affairs. These are the kinds of fine men they send to our shores.”

    You don’t like “these kinds” of people being in your country?

  79. So dissenting Palestinians who don’t want their kids to hate Israelis haven’t got much of a chance of getting their views heard

    Dissenting Palestinians? Dissenting from what?

    Are you prepared to admit that that the bitterness & resentment felt by Palestinians could be caused by the way they’ve been treated by Israel?

  80. Agit – I’m going to attempt to cut through the smoke which you always throw up when you defend the indefensible i.e. the jewish belief in their own superiority. Here it is again:

    Whereas true Christianity does not give believers the right to enslave others, deny their democratic rights or to regard them as inferior,
    judaism does.
    True or not true?

  81. ” You don’t like “these kinds” of people being in your country?”

    That’s because they don’t want or need Petr to “champion” them…. 😉

  82. Paul,
    you seem to be hop, skipping and jumping here.

    The original question you posed and I answered was…..

    ” You really believe that all Palestinians teach that to there children. Could the hate possibly come from the way they are treated in Gaza / the occupied territories etc?”

    The hate from the way they are treated and the teaching of hate do not necessarily follow each other.

    I answered the first part of your statement by saying that any dissenting Palestinians who didn’t want their kids to grow up hating Israelis would probably face the wrath of the leadership.
    I gave historical examples for why that would be so.

    Secondly
    IF hateful treatment resulted in teaching hatred, then what makes Palestinians and their rights any different to the American Redskins and their rights, or the Aborigines and their rights, or so on?

    In other words, the American Indians and Aborigines could also be expected to and excused for importing Grad rockets, AK47s and encouraging young impressionable people to be suicide bombers against Americans and Aussies.

    What’s the difference?
    And anyway, in my 1:55 I quoted Egyptian anger and retaliation towards the Palestinians in Gaza because of their interference in Egyptian internal affairs.

    You have yet to really evidence the hateful treatment of Palestinians by Israelis or to show that Israelis have systematically set about practicing genocide on Palestinians using concentration camps, extermination techniques etc.
    All you have shown is Israel defending itself and dealing with terrorists and suicide bombers in the way that any other country would do.
    It is sheer naivety.
    You have nothing to say about the way Libyans killed and mutilated each other, Iraqis, Iranians, Libyans and Syrians.
    That’s what they do to each other Paul.
    The Palestinians have never made any secret of what they would do to Israelis if they defeated them.
    Your and others here problem is that you make a leap of faith into believing that because these people have failed (at least twice) to establish their own State, they are therefore oppressed and share the same values and concepts of freedom as you do.
    The evidence across the Middle Eastern Islamic world simply does not bear that out.

  83. ” Agit – I’m going to attempt to cut through the smoke which you always throw up when you defend the indefensible i.e. the jewish belief in their own superiority. Here it is again:”
    And I’m going to cut through your crap of quoting me as saying the Jews believe they are superior.
    I have never said that the Jews are superior.
    I have gone out of my way to explain that they are NOT superior, simply that God CHOSE them.
    I have also said that God told the Jews that if they obeyed the laws He gave them He would bless them.
    So cut the crap Allan and admit that you not only don’t like Jews you actively malign them.

  84. Now then,
    the time here is 9:11 and at 1:55 I posted this…

    ” Assuming that David’s link is accurate in its reporting, one has to question the logic, perhaps even the mental health of the leadership of a people who since 1948 and even earlier have been calling for the death and destruction of another people who have not only resisted combined attempts to destroy them, they have gone on to build a thriving, free and Gay (even Goy Gay) friendly nation in the meantime.

    Now I ask you people,
    WHERE’S the logic? Why go on teaching your children to hate, to become suicide bombers, rocket firers and experts at facial disguise using a tablecloth?

    WHAT is the expected outcome if they succeed?

    Because as far as I understand it ( 🙂 )the only thing “PalestineAsWas” had going for it were a few holy sites, holy towns and nice weather.

    It was so undesirable that no one actually wanted to make it into a nation with an economy an army and a diplomatic corps and friendly relations with the Chinese or the Peoples republic of Liverpool…

    True, or not true?
    That is why the persecuted and unloved Jews were able to buy rubbishy bits of it for their communist zionist communes. Nobody really wanted the place.

    So let’s assume that perhaps the Palestinians (who according to an earlier quoted source) are really Egyptians and Saudis, prevail.
    They overcome Israel. Kill the men, rape the women, sell the kids into slavery and viciously eat the donkeys..
    Then what?

    And apart from some light verbal sparring between Paul McMahons and myself, no one has been been willing to speculate what might be the outcome and future for a victorious and liberated Palestinian State…

  85. Paul,
    I just found this from your 5:10pm.

    ” You really think that attachment to the land is based on a countries infrastructre? The Romans were much more advanced than the Britons do you agree that they should have continued occupying Britain? How do you know what Palestine would have developed into? It have just come out of the Ottoman Empire into the British Mandate and then to Zionism. It had no chance to possibly develop.”

    The historical reality is that the Jews in Palestine and the Egyptian/Saudi Palestinians were both offered not just recognition that they actually lived there, but the opportunity to become internationally recognised countries.
    The Palestinians refused the offer twice.
    The Jews accepted once.

  86. I have never said that the Jews are superior.

    Agit – you have written that jews have contributed more to humanity than the British which, at best, is utterly preposterous and at worst is simply betrayal – the craven grovelling before those who consider themselves ‘chosen’.

    Anyway, I found your post of 9.35pm to be so bad that it’s almost unwittingly funny, coming from a man who should have acquired some wisdom in his twilight years but clearly has not. When you wrote that “the historical reality is that the Jews in Palestine and the Egyptian/Saudi Palestinians were both offered not just recognition that they actually lived there, but the opportunity to become internationally recognised countries” you seem to have omitted one vital fact and one vital question.

    It is a fact that arabs lived in trans-Jordan in large numbers and greatly outnumbered any indigenous jews – that’s a fact. The question omitted is this: under whose authority was the offer of arab land made to Zionism? The indigenous people were not consulted so they were murdered and expelled.

  87. That’s unusual. A comment from Allan about Jews. The heatwave must have struck Aberdeen 😉

  88. There is no heatwave. All the people in the papers looking hot are actually actors placed there by wind farm corporations.

  89. Ross

    Sloppy
    There is no heatwave. All the people in the papers looking hot are actually actors placed there by Jewish wind farm corporations

  90. Colm – no less strange than a comment from Agit about jews and how wonderful they are. Then again, given the subject of the thread, is it so strange to have posts about Israel and jews?

    Anyway, the Shabbat goy wrote:

    Jews unaffected by the horrors of Christian European persecution….

    said persecution, when examined, turns out to be the usual pack of lies and gross exaggerations. Oy vey, da sufferink!

    http://pauleisen.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/myth-and-russian-pogroms-part-2.html

    (British Consul-General in Russia) Stanley reiterated the fact that his intensive investigations, which he carried out at great personal cost with a serious leg injury, illustrated that “The Times’ accounts of what took place at each of those places contains the greatest exaggerations, and that the account of what took place at some of those places is absolutely untrue.”[43] He related the fact that a Rabbi in Odessa had “not heard of any outrages on women there,” and that the object of almost every pogrom he had investigated was simple “plunder.”[44] Enraged by the lies circulating in Britain and America, Stanley “went right to the top,” interviewing state rabbis and asking for evidence and touring pogrom sites. In Odessa, where a wealth of atrocity stories had originated, he was able to confirm “one death, but no looting of synagogues or victims set alight.” There was no evidence that a single rape had taken place. One state Rabbi admitted that he had not heard of any outrages of women in Berezovka and further assured Stanley that he “could with a clear conscience positively deny that any deaths or any violations had occurred there during the disturbances of last year.”[45] He again sent this report to his superior in London, with a note saying “This is in accordance with all the information I have received and forwarded to your Lordship, and which I think more credible than anonymous letters in The Times.”[46]

  91. Allan – Are you seriously saying that there is little evidence of Jews ever having been persecuted in Europe ?. I know you think the Holocaust was a much exaggerated misdemeanour but honestly, no mistreatment of Jews in European history at all ??

    Not even you could claim that with a straight face.

  92. Allan – Are you seriously saying that there is little evidence of Jews ever having been persecuted in Europe?

    ‘Saying’? No – I’m providing evidence with references to the effect that jewish persecution is exaggerated.

    Read what I wrote which is “said persecution, when examined, turns out to be the usual pack of lies and gross exaggerations”. The link shows this to be the case.

    As for your attempt to attribute “no mistreatment of Jews in European history at all ??” to me, if I meant that, I would have written it. After all, when one is a holocaust denier, silly nuances go out the window. So yes, there had been persecutions of jews. Maybe if read a bit more than what is permissible, you would find out why.

    Don’t forget that jews never did anything wrong, ever. Not even in all of the times when they were expelled from the cities and states in Europe, they did nothing wrong, ever. Now you don’t believe that, do you?

  93. ” Agit – you have written that jews have contributed more to humanity than the British which, at best, is utterly preposterous and at worst is simply betrayal – the craven grovelling before those who consider themselves ‘chosen’.

    Allan,
    I believe that in a moral sense they have.
    In fact, they have been both the source of Western absolute morality and the prime victim of that same morality when things have gone wrong Oy Veh!

    So we owe them a great debt of gratitude for giving us both our moral law and the local “whipping boy” for Western societies at all times and in most places. 🙂

    Then of course all that rejection and persecution (and being sent to the Nazi version of “Billy Butlins” when they really really didn’t want to go!) has shaped in them a desire to excel in the arts and sciences, and prosper financially -even if they often had to give it all away in exchange for their lives…

    So I at least can unashamedly say I owe the Jewish people a great debt.

    BUT:
    The Jews are not superior.
    Like the English, Scots and Welsh they have their fair share of “not nice” people, crooks and shysters.
    Some of them like the English, may consider themselves superior.
    But God Himself is NOT Jewish.
    He simply chose the Jewish people to reveal Himself to the world…

  94. I had to go out yesterday evening so I’ll pick up where I left off.

    The original question you posed and I answered was…..
    ” You really believe that all Palestinians teach that to there children. Could the hate possibly come from the way they are treated in Gaza / the occupied territories etc?”

    Can you direct me to where you answered the question? I must have missed it.

    I answered the first part of your statement(sic) by saying that any dissenting Palestinians who didn’t want their kids to grow up hating Israelis would probably face the wrath of the leadership

    Would that be those ‘men with guns’ that you denied suggesting earlier?

    You have yet to really evidence the hateful treatment of Palestinians by Israelis or to show that Israelis have systematically set about practicing genocide on Palestinians using concentration camps, extermination techniques etc

    Perhaps that’s because I’ve never suggested that Israel ‘has never set about practicing genocide on Palestinians using concentration camps, extermination techniques etc ?’

    You have nothing to say about the way Libyans killed and mutilated each other, Iraqis, Iranians, Libyans and Syrians.
    That’s what they do to each other Paul

    Because that’s an entirely different subject to the Israel / Palestine debate akin to blaming the Greeks for the horrific atrocities committed during the ’90’s Balkans wars.

    The time here is 9:11 and at 1:55 I posted this…

    And I explained why it’s full of supposition by fisking it at 5.10. Reposting it diesn’t give it any more credibility.

  95. Paul
    Damn!

    I thought you were asleep.

    I ain’t going through it all again.
    I did answer your question re-
    “Do all Palestinians teach their children to hate Israelis.
    I did point out that however many there are, they dare not speak out publicly. I am not aware of any existing “Let’s make peace with Israel, they ain’t monsters!” groups.
    Are you?
    Just as I am not aware of any thriving Palestinian Gay and Lesbian Groups.
    Are you?

    Also when I mentioned Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Lebanon and even Egypt; I did so because they all share one thing in common.
    Any ideas as to what that might be Paul?

    The Palestinians never had a State, a sovereign nation. That’s a fact.
    They were ruled by various Muslim powers, including the Turks the Egyptians and the Syrians. Either they never had Palestinian national aspirations or the Islamic powers that ruled over them never allowed it.
    They had two opportunities to have their own State alongside Israel, but they declined because essentially they did not want a Jewish State.
    And my original post posed the rhetorical question,
    “What do people think would happen if the Palestinians finally realised their ambition of overthrowing the Jewish State, killing the men, raping the women, selling the children into slavery and violently eating their donkeys.”

    What happens next Peeps?
    Does world peace break out?

  96. “Don’t forget that jews never did anything wrong, ever. Not even in all of the times when they were expelled from the cities and states in Europe, they did nothing wrong, ever. Now you don’t believe that, do you?”

    Allan – I don’t think in those terms. Individuals do wrong things, and groups of people join together to intentionally choose to do wrong things. It is acceptable only to punish or deliver appropriate levels of justice to those individuals.

    If you can find an example in history of a location where all the Jewish people from babies to grannies in one area chose to do bad things, then and only then can an expulsion based on race/religion be justified.

  97. I did answer your question re-
    “Do all Palestinians teach their children to hate Israelis

    ‘Pointing out’ ‘They dare not speak out publicly. I am not aware of any existing “Let’s make peace with Israel, they ain’t monsters!” groups’

    Is not answering the question. It’s perfectly legitimate for a Palestinian to detest the state of Israel and not detest Israelis akin to ‘love the sinner hate the sin?’

    Just as I am not aware of any thriving Palestinian Gay and Lesbian Groups.
    Are you?

    I wasn’t before but a quick visit to Google changed that:

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/though-small-palestines-queer-movement-has-big-vision/12607

    However gay & lesbian rights are a total irrelevance to the subjuct at hand so please stop fishing for red herrings

    The Palestinians never had a State, a sovereign nation. That’s a fact

    Well, they never had a soverign nation but so what? the state of Northern Ireland didn’t exist until 1922, the Israelis themselves never had a state until 1947, the various Balkan countries didn’t exist until the break up of Yugoslavia in the nineties likewise with the nations of Lithuania, Latvia & Georgia.

    States are created all the time. What’s your point?

    “What do people think would happen if the Palestinians finally realised their ambition of overthrowing the Jewish State, killing the men, raping the women, selling the children into slavery and violently eating their donkeys.”

    Rhetorical is correct so you’ll understand that neither you, I or anyone else can answer such a hypothetical rhetorical device.

    Agi, if you continuouslly refuse to answer direct questions and attempt to shift the focus of the conversation this debate will go nowhere.

  98. //where all the Jewish people from babies to grannies in one area chose to do bad things, then and only then can an expulsion based on race/religion be justified//

    No, it would be a justification only if all Jews EVERYWHERE misbehaved.

  99. Noel

    Good point. Clumsily worded by me. I should have written “.. then and only then would the expulsion of all those people in that area be justified”. It still of course would not justify punishing people according to race/religion.

  100. These endless Israel discussions shed no light, and no one’s mind is changed on any aspect of it, however small.

  101. Colm,
    the fear of the stranger or the strange is common in all cultures, but providing the “host” culture remains the overwhelming majority and their laws and values stay unchallenged then strangers can be (begrudgingly) accommodated and perhaps overtime recognised.

    Allan however is a bigot of the first order. He would have fitted right in with the Nazis and he remains curiously indifferent to the personal, human suffering of Jewish people who were rejected and persecuted simply for being different.
    It has to be made clear that in all their long history in Europe and the rest of the world (the Diaspora), they were never allowed their own militia, or to defend themselves by force of arms.
    The Jews therefore survived by performing useful services like money lending, peddling or acting as the scapegoat for the ills and vagaries of social and economic misfortunes.
    Allan is quite unaffected by this and cannot understand anyone who sees the human tragedy.

  102. ” These endless Israel discussions shed no light, and no one’s mind is changed on any aspect of it, however small.”

    I agree Phantom, but in the light of persecution culminating in the Holocaust the kind of slurs and attacks made by some on Israel and the Jews cannot go unchallenged.

    Humans have very short attention spans and even shorter memories.
    That’s why we keep committing the same mistakes.

  103. In the light of persecution culminating in the Holocaust

    And there we have it, at last. The emotional justification for all Zionist actions.

  104. ” And there we have it, at last. The emotional justification for all Zionist actions.”

    And there we see it at last.
    Paul has completely lost the plot.

  105. Paul has completely lost the plot

    Perhaps you’d like to elaborate on that Agi? Just saying it diesn’t make it correct you know it’s still only a glib, throwaway comment

  106. Paul,
    I like arguing with you and I have no wish to fall out with you over this.
    But what you just said at 2:43 compares with your never ending rehashes of injustices committed against Republicans/Sinn Feiners/Catholics over the years.
    No matter how many years ago it happened Paul, you are always ready to drag it up, re-examine it and point a finger at the guilty party as you see it.

    I think you really believe that all Ireland’s problems were caused by the English.
    You don’t say that, because you know some good decent English people (rather like me) who are willing to acknowledge that bad things were deliberately done to the Irish by the English, as well as bad mistakes made. The difference is though, I and most other people (including Irish people) have let it go and moved on.
    You and some others here on ATW can’t or won’t.

    So it seems to me that according to your way of thinking, people like me who support the Jews and the State of Israel, do so because the Holocaust and Jewish persecution justifies the Israelis doing whatever they do.

    Yet I have never argued that as a justification, only as an explanation. Much the same as you might do about matters Irish.

  107. Wwhat you just said at 2:43 compares with your never ending rehashes of injustices committed against Republicans/Sinn Feiners/Catholics over the years.
    No matter how many years ago it happened Paul, you are always ready to drag it up, re-examine it and point a finger at the guilty party as you see it.

    Absolutely Agi, I will always cite injustices because they are injustices. The difference is that I don’t use it as a justification for further violence
    the way that some use the holocausr as a means of justification for all Zionist actions.

    Two wrongs do definitely not make a right

    I think you really believe that all Ireland’s problems were caused by the English

    Then you are very very much mistaken.

    The difference is though, I and most other people (including Irish people) have let it go and moved on.
    You and some others here on ATW can’t or won’t.

    Is it moving on for you to bring the Irish element into a conversation about Israel as you did earlier in this thread? Let me point something out Agi: The conflict in Ireland had a very personal affect on me every day throught all of my childhood, teens, and early adult life. If people are going to blog about it I’m going to talk about it. You’ve ‘moved on?’ – good for you now maybe you could stop the sanctimonious preaching and leave those of us who want to talk about it to talk about it?

    Yet I have never argued that as a justification, only as an explanation

    A distinction so thing that you could barely get a cigarette paper between them.

    I like arguing with you and I have no wish to fall out with you over this

    Why should we fall out?

  108. If it’s sanctimonious preaching when I do it, what is it when you do it?

    Whatever you would call it it’s probably a distinction so thin, you could barely get a cigarette paper between them.

    So if the problems in Northern Ireland aren’t England’s fault would you list those you do regard as responsible?

  109. If it’s sanctimonious preaching when I do it, what is it when you do it?

    Examples please.

    You don’t say that, because you know some good decent English people (rather like me) who are willing to acknowledge that bad things were deliberately done to the Irish by the English, as well as bad mistakes made. The difference is though, I and most other people (including Irish people) have let it go and moved on.
    You and some others here on ATW can’t or won’t

    Sounds pretty sanctimonious to me.

    So if the problems in Northern Ireland aren’t England’s fault would you list those you do regard as responsible?

    The Catholic & Protestant churches, absentee andlords, Scots planters, Free Staters amongst others

  110. ” Examples please.”
    I already gave them here

    “But what you just said at 2:43 compares with your never ending rehashes of injustices committed against Republicans/Sinn Feiners/Catholics over the years.
    No matter how many years ago it happened Paul, you are always ready to drag it up, re-examine it and point a finger at the guilty party as you see it.”

    and here,

    “So it seems to me that according to your way of thinking, people like me who support the Jews and the State of Israel, do so because the Holocaust and Jewish persecution justifies the Israelis doing whatever they do.
    Yet I have never argued that as a justification, only as an explanation. Much the same as you might do about matters Irish.”

    And then there was your blanket condemnation of Jewish male circumcision some months back,
    then more recently your examples of Israeli atrocities involving children,

    Then there was your big thing about the Jewish Quarter in Venice, complete with Hebrew signage pizzarias etc.

    Neglecting of course to mention that actually they were originally kept separate from Christian Venetians locked up into a ghetto and guarded at Jewish expense…

    “Sounds pretty sanctimonious to me.”

    Sounds pretty tongue in cheek to me.

    Or did I need to include 😉 so that you understood I was being funny?

  111. Think that you’ll find they’re examples of you speaking and not me old chap.

    All the other ‘examples’ are not sanctomonious, please explain how they are.

    Sounds pretty tongue in cheek to me.
    Or did I need to include so that you understood I was being funny?

    Re – read your 3.48, Really tongue in cheek.

    So, has the discussion re Israel finished then?

  112. “Think that you’ll find they’re examples of you speaking and not me old chap.”

    Nope, them’s my ANSWERS to your request for examples, Paul.

    And these are my examples of your attitude towards Israel..

    “And then there was your blanket condemnation of Jewish male circumcision some months back,
    then more recently your examples of Israeli atrocities involving children,
    Then there was your big thing about the Jewish Quarter in Venice, complete with Hebrew signage pizzarias etc.
    Neglecting of course to mention that actually they were originally kept separate from Christian Venetians locked up into a ghetto and guarded at Jewish expense…”

    and the sanctimonious bit YOU brought up here,

    “good for you now maybe you could stop the sanctimonious preaching and leave those of us who want to talk about it to talk about it?”

    And all the while there are misinformed and malignant attitudes towards Israel the discussion will never be finished.

    “Wherever there is injustice….”

    http://www.moviesoundclips.net/sound.php?id=198

  113. If it’s sanctimonious preaching when I do it, what is it when you do it?
    Examples please

    I wanted examples of my supposed sanctimonious comments Agi not rehashes of yours.

    And these are my examples of your attitude towards Israel..
    “And then there was your blanket condemnation of Jewish male circumcision some months back,
    then more recently your examples of Israeli atrocities involving children,
    Then there was your big thing about the Jewish Quarter in Venice, complete with Hebrew signage pizzarias etc.
    Neglecting of course to mention that actually they were originally kept separate from Christian Venetians locked up into a ghetto and guarded at Jewish expense…”

    Attitude towards Israel? The only point you raise is my supposed examples of Israeli atrocities involving children

    Surely you’re not trying to pull my views regarding Zionism, and equate the religious mutilation of male babies and the historical persecution of people of the Jewish faith into some kind of all round Semitism on my behalf Agi?

    Sanctimonious? Try telling someone that’s actually lived with conflict for a coniderable part of there lives to be quiet whenever that conflict issue is raised and ‘move on’ (as you obviously have)and you may see what sanctimonious is?

    “Wherever there is injustice….”

    Indeed, the old Mark Twain ‘Darkly in a mirror’ quote springs to mind.

Comments are closed.