58 1 min 14 yrs

myabsolutworld.jpg Now, this is an Absolut ad that I can support. Note the fence photoshopped across the Southern border of the US.

Imagine law abiding individuals respecting the sovereignty of the United States. Imagine a world without out-of-control illegal immigration.




From: Reader Ed at Michelle Malkin

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58 thoughts on “Good Fences Make Good Neighbors

  1. "Note the fence photoshopped..

    Wow, I’d never have spotted it of you hadn’t pointed it out Patty 🙂

  2. Imagine law abiding individuals respecting the sovereignty of the United States.

    Then think of Iraq.

  3. These old sayings are deliberately ambigious. Do the walls in Belfast make good neighbours, the answer is no. One man on Panorama the other night which was about the GFA ten years on, said before the wall went up he had a neighbour out back, now it’s the other side.

    There will always be pro’s and con’s for these old folklore sayings. Their introduction tries to give legitimacy to an argument that it doesn’t basically have.

  4. Cait,

    If you have not read the poem Mending Wall by Robert Frost (no relation), I highly recommend it. He explores the amibiguity, starting with his opening line:

    "Something there is that doesn’t love a wall"

  5. Mexico is a friendly neighbor. Building a fence along the border is an unnecessary insult, a waste of money and an admission of lack of actual ideas.

  6. As respects illegal immigration, Mexico is an irresponsible and unfriendly neighbor. They have never tried to stem the flow of illegals out of their country, though they are quite heavy handed in keeping illegal Central Americans out of their land.

    They’ve tended to treat any concerns of the US as "racist" and they have aided/abetted illegal crossings in various ways.

    I’d prefer that the fence was not necessary, but there is no responsible alternative, as Mexico has taken no action to stem the flow.

    Maybe someday the fence can come down, but that day will come only after Mexico begins to be a responsible neighbor.

    I think the illustration above is out of scale and that it makes Mexico appear larger than it really is.

  7. Mahons: Yes, Mexico is a "friendly" neighbor. And we also get much of our oil from Mexico and enjoy Mexico’s cheap labor pool. However, Mexico is also a corrupt and ineffective country. They have many natural resources and yet the majority of their people live in poverty and are barely literate. A corrupt communist country, the elite and corrupt of Mexico ski in Chile and stash their cash in offshore banks; meanwhile, most Mexicans live in squalor.

    The US provides generous welfare outreach to illegals who flood into LA, and other cities.Indigent illegals enjoy free medical care (clogging up the emergency rooms for flu treatment; hospitals deliver illegal Mexican babies "free" because they have no money meanwhile driving up the cost of others who do pay etc.) Illegals provide the drugs that are a bane in our schools and streets and much of the hardcore gang crime that makes our streets dangerous.

    The Communist Reconquista movement preaches anti-Americanism, and teaches that the poor of Mexico are "owed" something. It encourages immigrant communities where English is not spoken and immigrants do not assimilate and the American work ethic is eschewed.

    Until fairly recently, the Mexican illegal situation was not good but it certainly wasn’t critical. If there are only a few it really doesn’t matter. But when huge numbers of illegals are here it is time to address the problem and control the situation. A fence is the answer.

  8. A fence is part of the answer–it may take more than that.

    Intelligent legislation to discourage the hiring of illegals, such as that enacted by Arizona, should be implemented by the other states and by the rudderless and leaderless national government.

    Patty’s comments on welfare are entirely correct–illegal immigration worsens so many other national problems–schools, health care cost, delivery of medical care, prison overcrowding…it is very hard to quantify, it is that immense.

    More than building barriers, we need to remove most or all "magnets" than attract illegals here–the grant of US citizenship for illegals’ children born here, welfare benefits, subsidized college tuition. Remove all carrots and implement a big stick of employer sanctions.

    I would not mind giving development aid to countries like Mexico if they played ball with such an effort by gaining control of their own northern border.

    My goal would be zero illegal immigration in a set time, maybe two years. Would it be hard to do? Not as hard as things will get if we continue down our current path.

  9. Alan F-M: Thanks! Loved reading that again. Like old sayings, the poem is ambiguous, of course.

    "Before I built a wall I’d ask to know

    What I was walling in or walling out,

    And to whom I was like to give offense."

  10. Cait: lol.lol!

    Patty, lol back! Do you have a counter argument?

    My position is that the old saying used is ambigious and doesn’t necessarily fit immigration. Does it make good neighbours to have a high fence, not always.Infact today we have Pat Kenny, fighting with his neighbour over boundaries. Infact I’d guess that boundary fences are one of the main causes of friction between neighbours.

    A fence won’t control your immigration problems, nor Europes either!


  11. Cait

    No it won’t but it can be part of a solution.

    And the absolute calamitous performance of the Mexican government has to be part of this discussion

    Mexico, rich in natural resources and with an extremely hard working population, with a free trade relationship to the US that it is adjacent to, should be a very rich country.

    There is no good reason why its people should be hungry and desperate. Yet they are. Uncontrolled emigration is not the answer to any country’s social problems.

    Mexico has no grounds to criticize the US. Any country has an absolute right to control its border, and it is time that the US acted as a sovereign nation.

  12. Phantom,

    I’m not saying don’t respect borders, it’s the ambiguity in the old folklore that I refer to. I just don’t see why it is appropriate to be used for immigration. It brings a complex debate down to a mere simple soloution, lets erect a fence they won’t get through. They’ll get through, because sure enough somebody will breach it. Plus I don’t like the us and them it creates.

  13. True enough, but the actions of Mexico have made it clear that they do not respect the border.

    And a fence will make it harder for crossings to be made, which will mean fewer illegal crossings.

    Normal relations cannot happen so long as this flood continues. Unusual times call for unusual measures.

    In a very real sense, this wall is being built by Mexico as it is they who have made it necessary.

  14. ‘And a fence will make it harder for crossings to be made,’

    It won’t Phantom, not unless you man it – and doing that could lead to a US version of check point Charlie. Plus we saw reports here of ways under ground, that they were using. Crawling through sewage, so they could get under the wall.

  15. Patty -Are you suggesting that Mexico’s Federal Republic is actually a Communist state? Mexico has serious problems in corruption, poverty and trade, not to mention immigration, but it isn’t a communist country.

    As for the Mexicans being "barely literate", they have a literacy rate of over 90%.

    One can hardly fault Mexico alone for the drug trade, as the demand drives the supply and the demand is here in the USA.

    As for "illegal" Mexican babies being born in the U.S.
    the last time I checked the Constitution a child born in the U.S. is a United States citizen.

    The U.S. is a better and smarter nation than one which builds a fence around itself.

    Oh, by the way, ever since the Wright Brothers flew a plane at Kitty Hawk, the idea of a fence solving illegal immigration problems was rendered moot.

  16. Cait

    We’ll see. My understanding is that the fence near San Diego has led to a good result.

    There’s some silly comment here along the lines of " fences will not stop all illegals". Well, who said it would? It is a part of a multifaceted strategy. Physical barriers will work in some places, "virtual fences", which make it much easier for Border Patrol to catch intruders, will be used in areas with a sparse population.

    What we’ve been doing has clearly not worked.This option now can and must be tried, and yes, only as part of a broader complement of intitiatives.

  17. –the last time I checked the Constitution a child born in the U.S. is a United States citizen.–

    That is my point. Many countries’ laws do not work that way. And this should be re-examined with an eye to a Constitutional amendment that would change requirements for citizenship.

    This is a very strong magnet that serves to attract illegals–have a child while here, which creates "facts on the ground" of a US citizen in the family. Which then means any effort to deport the illegal parent is an effort to "break up families" since no one wants to send the freshly minted "US Citizen" back to Mexico.

  18. Cait: "Patty, lol back! Do you have a counter argument?"

    To your comment? No! LOL!

    Mahons: Yes, I am suggesting the Mexico is communist.The losing candidate in the last election was running on the Communist Party platform. I suppose you could make the argument that Mexico is communist-lite, or a sort of corrupt hybrid of capitalism/communism but that is an analysis I’ll leave for you.

  19. Why does the US government not eforce its own laws? There are over 11 million undocumented illegals in the US which is more than twice the population of Scotland. All that is needed are severe sanctions against would-be employers.

  20. Mahons: "As for the Mexicans being "barely literate", they have a literacy rate of over 90%"

    Well, I suppose it depends on your definition of "literacy." Illegal Mexican immigrant education is minimal; they work as minimum wage day laborers for a reason.

    One of the problems in the LA public schools is that illegal Mexican immigrant parents have minimal education, and minimal interest in education, their children do not have good school work habits. Broadly speaking, they don’t read books at home; they don’t turn in homework assignments; they don’t seek outside tutoring etc.

    I’m sorry if thie isn’t a "nice" thing to say but if you compare any of the recent Asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Viet Namese) immigrants in LA public school — who also arrive with nothing — the difference is striking and I believe the value the Asians place on education has alot to do with their success.


  21. –One of the problems in the LA public schools is that illegal Mexican immigrant parents have minimal education,–

    True. The ones I see in work environments ( food markets etc ) have great trouble making change, etc. Because they were never educated in Mexico.

    They appear to have a good aptitude to learn what they need for work –and a killer work ethic — but the people who tend to come illegally to the US — including those of Mexican Indian ancestry–tend to be from rural areas, where they’ve been to little or no school, ever.

  22. Allan@Aberdeen,

    All that is needed are severe sanctions against would-be employers.

    I knew that if I kept reading your comments, I would eventually find an issue on which we agree.

    All US administrations have been very lax in enforcing the labor laws against employers, and those who hire illegals know this. Cut off the supply and the demand will disappear.


    You have Mexicans in Brooklyn? That must be relatively new. When I lived there, there were many more Puerto Ricans and Dominicans than Mexicans. Are they lured by a specific trade, e.g., landscaping or construction?

  23. Alan

    Yes sir. Arizona has led the way, with a law that supposedly has already led to an outflux back across the border to Mexico.

    Their new law I believe does the following

    1) Identity fraud, including for employment purposes, is a felony.

    2) Beginning January 1, 2008, every employer must verify eligibility of all newly hired employees through the federal Basic Pilot Program.

    3) Anyone can file a complaint against an employer hiring illegal aliens. The Attorney General or County Attorney must investigate every complaint. It is a misdemeanor to frivolous complaint against an employer.

    4) Assuming the complaint is legitimate, Attorney General or County Attorney must:
    a. Notify federal immigration, customs and local law enforcement agencies.
    b. File a lawsuit against the employer. (Courts are required to expedite the lawsuit.)

    5) For a first offense of “knowingly” hiring an illegal worker:
    a. The employer must terminate the illegal workers.
    b. The employer will serve three years probation during which the employer must file quarterly reports documenting all new hires where the illegal workers were employed.
    c. All employer licenses (uncluding business license) will be suspended unless within three days after the court order, the employer signs an affidavit stating that it has released all illegal workers and will not knowingly or intentionally hire illegal workers. If a second violation, all licenses are permanently revoked.

    6) For a first offense of "intentionally" hiring an illegal worker:
    a. Same as "a" above.
    b. The employer will serve a five year probation and file quarterly reports documenting all new hires.
    c. Same as "c" above except licenses will be suspended for a minimum of ten days. A second violation also gets all licenses permanently revoked.

    7) "knowingly" hiring means that at some point from initial hiring process to later on, the employer knew about it and hired the illegal worker, or kept them on, anyway. "Intentionally" refers to making a concerted effort to employ illegal workers.

    Remove the magnet that attracts, and the problem solves itself.

  24. Patty – We’ve been down this road before. The statistic (I know how you hate facts but read on anyway) was from the Central Intelligence Agency. Do you have an issue with their definition of literacy?

    All the claims against the Mexicans have been made against other immigrant groups over the decades, there is nothing really new here.

    We can work to control illegal immigration without resorting to bumper sticker logic.

  25. Mahons

    I speak anecdotally, but again the illegals I see appear to have minimal literacy and numeracy. Does not make them bad guys–and it is very likely that the desperate people who come here are from the 10% who cannot properly read.

    I think Patty is fundamentally correct in her assessments..it is not the intelligentsia or the middle class of Mexico City who come here to work in the fruit market.

  26. Phantom – I was never under the impression that our intelligentsia worked in our fruit markets (although perhaps they should).

  27. "We’ve been down this road before…. Do you have an issue with their definition of literacy? "

    Ah I knew that I was feeling deja vu. I’ll say what I said last time on the subject, the CIA factbook figure is for basic literacy, ie being able to read short and simple sentences and writing your name.

    Functional literacy is the ability to use reading and writing in day to day life when it comes to things like filling in forms or understanding instructions.

    I can’t find a figure for Mexico’s functional literacy rate but given that under 80% of the populations of the UK, the USA and Ireland are functionally literate and Mexico’s education system is ranked well below those countries then it seems highly probable that the proportion of Mexicans who are functionally illiterate is very high.

  28. This is not a bashing of Mexicans –but should be a kick to their government–

    many, many Mexicans never attend school at all…for
    many reasons Expecially in the rural and Indian areas.

  29. What was the literarcy rate of Irish Immigrants, German and Italian when they represnted the largest waves of immigrants. What language and overcrowding and birth rate claims were made against them?

  30. I don’t see anyone here making claims against these people.

    I see frank discussion about a Mexican government that chooses not to educate some of its population, and who then essentially expels them northward across a border that they don’t respect.

    And the Irish and other European citizens you speak of were in the main all here legally.

    It is a legitimate issue to raise. One that has less than nothing to do with the old nativist stuff.

  31. Phantom: I am sure you don’t, but surely not all opposition to Mexican immigration is pure. As for the preceeding generations, the same prohibitions were not necessarily in place.

    Illegal Immigration is a problem, a serious one. A fence is not a serious solution

  32. I like immigration, and I have no problem with immigration from Mexico. Again, the ones I see are very hard working, an attitude we need more of.

    But immigration must be controlled, and we should be the only party who sets those controls. That’s what sovereignty is all about.

    Ten trillion dollars for border control, and not one cent for aid to illegals. Or something like that.

  33. Ten Trillion Dollars? That is a long weekend at Scores for former Governor Spitzer.

  34. Why not invite Mexico to join the US . At a stroke you will have solved your illegal immigration problem 😉

  35. We took Texas and California and other places off their hands. And all they do is complain!

  36. Mahons: "not all opposition to Mexican immigration is pure."

    Are you trying to suggest racism?

    You are such a Democrat! If someone doesn’t agree, you yell "racism!" Why not consider the merits of the argument instead?

  37. Patty

    Did Mahons say ALL opposition to Mexican immigration must be racist, or are you saying that there is absolutely no racism involved at all in anyone’s attitudes ?

  38. Phantom

    You’ll have to run that past Charles and Daphne first. Somehow methinks they won’t be too happy about the exchange

  39. A modest proposal

    We give Mexico Texas back in exchange for no illegal immigration

    Sounds like a win-win to me.

  40. Phantom, Your modest proposal has much to be modest about!

    I no wanna be mexican! ;0

  41. Patty: Why not consider the lilies of the field? Some of the opposition to immigrants from Mexico is simply prejuediced, or don’t you think there is an element of that in some folks? And some doesn’t mean all.

  42. Charles

    Look at the bright side

    Your dollar will go further

    You can legally buy land in the rest of your new country

    Excellent opportunity to learn Spanish

    You can legally travel to Cuba

    All the excellent benefits await you!

  43. Phantom: The down side is of course –
    1. George Bush could then run for President of Mexico.

  44. Mahons and Colm: Racism is not even a side issue with the problem of illegal immigrants. I believe that Mahons brings racism up to muddy the discussion waters.

    Please forgive me if I’m wrong, but why else would you slyly try to sneak it in there? It’s a debate tactic.

  45. Well he speaks Spanish as well as he speaks English so I am sure that he will be very popular there.

  46. If Bush can be el presidente again I’ll consider it!

    Then again, he probably have trouble pronouncing "bomba atomica", and invade Guatemala.

  47. I think Patty is substantially correct in this matter – racism is not a fundamental part of this discussion at all. There are some racists on the anti immigrant side, and there are plenty of racists ( see the La Raza organization if you want to be literal ) on the other side, but its a diversion to bring that issue here.

    Fundamentally, this is not a racial issue–its a sovereignty issue with many levels of public and private economics issues attached to it.

  48. Patty: Stop sniffing glue during the day! I raise racism as it is clearly an issue for many folks who simply don’t like Mexicans. There are of course many legimate reasons to be concerned about illegal immigration.

    Phantom -it is no diversion, it is a simple fact of life.

  49. Phantom: "its a sovereignty issue with many levels of public and private economics issues attached to it."

    exactly. well stated.

  50. — it is a simple fact of life.–

    If some people are racist, then they can go to hell. But this discussion will fare better if that issue is left to the side.

    No one needs to forget anything – but this issue needs to be discussed seriously, and it can’t be if there is a introduction of "racism" out of context.

    Its not racist to oppose illegal immigration…nor is it racist to speak frankly about the unique situation that exists on the Mexican border, or of the social issues that exist within Mexico and are transplanted here when illegals come across.

  51. mahons: I live in LA. I don’t know of any anti-Mexican sentiment here. (except some gang related shootings, which is a separate subject)

    In fact, we spend much of our time cooking Mexican food, driving to Mexico to surf, drinking Marqgueritas, seeking out good mariachi bands for parties etc. Mexico is everywhere. Housework,yardwork, office work, apparel, any service business, any grocery store regardless of the neighborhood. Serve on a jury and at least 1/3 of the jurors are probably Mexican heritage. Our oldest landmark is OLvera St. which was a pueblo. The history of LA is Mexican (and Japanese) Our mayor is Mexican heritage.

    Racism is not an issue. Being overrun by ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants is the issue.

  52. Patty -you’ve never heard of any anti-Mexican sentiment in Los Angeles? Interesting. I’ll have to bookmark this with gaskin’s claim that SF had no relationship with the IRA.

  53. Mahons: No anti-Mexican sentiment in my circle. I grew up here quite liking Mexicans. I’m not an exception. Everyone learned a little Spanish (or a lot if you wanted to) in elementary school. We really are neighbors and share culture etc.

    There is a pending case where a black boy was killed by an illegal Mexican right after the illegal was released from jail. There is a new law being proposed which would deport arrested illegals, not re-release them back into the community. BUt the discussion is about ILLEGALS, not Mexicans, per se. I honestly don’t think anti-Mexican is the issue. It’s anti-ILLEGAL.

    Although recently the La Raza and the Reconquista movement have vocally supported open borders, and this kind of anti-AMerican anti-sovereignity push probably will turn some people into blanket anti-Mexicans.

  54. Colm: If the government closes and properly monitors the border, the amnesty package on the table will pass. No one wants to deport ordinary people who are already here and who have made their lifes here. (criminals are a separate matter) What I don’t want is an OPEN border, whereby Americans have no control or say over who enters. And an open ended promise to provide free social services to anyone who can make it to the city.

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