89 23 mins 8 yrs

Every once in awhile the New Yorker Magazine will print something that catches my eye, the following interview did. It’s an interview with the former head of the NSA making his case for data mining. Since this is always a fun topic for every here I give you the article to read and offer an opinion on.

I think he makes some valid points, but it’s a bizarre read… enjoy

“We’re At Greater Risk”: Q. & A. with General Keith Alexander

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89 thoughts on “NSA and the need for data mining.

  1. Since this is always a fun topic for every here I give you the article to read and offer an opinion on.

    This is America and spying we are talking about, your opinion as a civilian doesn’t matter, whatever you say, think or believe, your government will do whatever it wants, when it wants.

  2. yes Harri it will, this however is about the rules of domestic data mining. How it is perceived, the reasoning behind it, and the fact that congress the supposed watchdogs were given all the information on how it works and except for a few never bothered to read it.

    Remember I have no problem with the program. I support it.

  3. Troll

    You also support your Constitution, now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but is there not a part of that Constitution and Bill of Rights which mentions Americans right to privacy?

  4. The word ” privacy ” never appears in the Constitution. Some judges made it up.

    Data mining is a modern method of intel collection. In the Civil War era, and during the world wars, letters were intercepted and at times censored.

    The Patriot Act is entirely consistent with the Constitution, and it is supported by the American people.

    Threats still exist, and this is one of the more harmless and effective ways of countering them.

  5. Harri

    Do you approve of any intelligence gathering, and if so, what are the means and methods that you support?

    Do you think that our countries have face any terrorist threats at all, and if so, what should we do about it?

  6. I read that the Patriot Act (??) was presented to Congress on 24th September, 2001 which is 13 days after 9/11. Given the detail of the PA, one must assume that the Bill was ready for presentation prior to the untimely surprise events of 9/11 and merely required the ‘need’?

  7. Phantom – given your failure to dispute, may I take it that my post at 2.55pm is factually correct?

  8. I read that the Patriot Act (??) was presented to Congress on 24th September, 2001 which is 13 days after 9/11. Given the detail of the PA, one must assume that the Bill was ready for presentation prior to the untimely surprise events of 9/11 and merely required the ‘need’?

    This is now confirmed as true.

    Now, as we know, Troll is a ‘patriot’. Can this or any other patriot confirm that the Patriot Act (for patriots) overrides the Constitution as Harri asks?

  9. Allan

    What level of surveillance of internal and external enemies would you approve of?

    What means and methods?

    Unless you take the position that nations don’t have any enemies anymore.

  10. //Do you approve of any intelligence gathering, and if so, what are the means and methods that you support?//

    I approve of the Chinese data spying on the US, otherwise no.

    I’d say most of the world is behind the Chinks on this one.

  11. Phantom, on May 20th, 2014 at 1:23 PM Said:

    Harri

    Do you approve of any intelligence gathering, and if so, what are the means and methods that you support?

    Do you think that our countries have face any terrorist threats at all, and if so, what should we do about it?

    Stop invading foreign countries for a start

    And stop being so paranoid, there are very bad people everywhere, mostly in government, that big bad boogeyman is everywhere, your guvmint says so.

    Phantom, on May 20th, 2014 at 3:42 PM Said:

    You may kiss my ass in Macy’s front window at 2pm this Friday.

    Allan, I think you can safely take that as a yes then 🙂

  12. Stop invading foreign countries

    That is an important conversation to have, but it actually has little to do with this issue.

    What level of foreign and domestic surveillance would you endorse in the UK? What means and methods should be used?

    If the UK disbanded its military tomorrow morning, do you really believe that it would have no foreign or domestic enemies?

    ( please omit the jive about the government being the only enemy and all that )

  13. ( please omit the jive about the government being the only enemy and all that )

    Phantom, kiss my arse at British Home stores at 5.30pm

    Only joking I leave those cop-outs to you mate 🙂

    The only wars I know of, are the ones America started.

    Levels of spying?apartfrom going back to a pair of dark glasses, and a newspaper with two holes cut out for eyes .. oh and a trilby hat. if it was not for our glorious leaders and the Neo-cons, bankers, etc etc, we would not need to be spied upon at every twist and turn

    Stop being so paranoid, yes I agree probably most of the world despises you, but it’s your own dam fault.

  14. And maybe cease the state ‘spying’ and absolute paranoia which borders on North Korea levels which is now bordering on mental-illness

    In the Land of the free and home of the brave *cough, there would be no need to touch up children at airports by the State thugs the TSA, and stop harrasing old age disabled pensioners in wheelchairs at ‘airport security’ 😉

  15. What level of surveillance of internal and external enemies would you approve of?

    It would depend entirely upon who the “enemies” are, so who are they?

    External is probably just about everybody, but internal? Let’s see – NRA members, war veterans, Church-goers, those who grow their own food – in other words, ordinary white Americans.

  16. If the UK disbanded its military tomorrow morning, do you really believe that it would have no foreign or domestic enemies?

    Just for the record, our Illustrious ‘leaders’ are already disbanding the British military 😉 well helloooo Federal EU armed forces.

    Look, in Blighty we have more ‘Muslims’ per sq mile than you could shake a pointy stick at, we have more mosques and muslim ghettos than Pakistan, yet I see no tanks or soldiers on street corners keping us all safe and sound from the big bad muslim boogeyman, I do see on the news on a regular basis Paramilitary police carrying out ‘armed raids’ on houses and other buildings against ‘suspected terrorists’.. which in most if not all cases it has been on ‘intelligence’ from our spy services, which again in most if not all of the cases usually end up with no charges, and the so called ‘muslim terrorists’ being awarded lottery win compensation payouts due to absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Still it keeps the idiot sheep citizens in a constant state of fear.

    As I previously said, the sheep do not require herding anymore, they do that all by themselves.


  17. What level of foreign and domestic surveillance would you endorse in the UK? What means and methods should be used?

    If the UK disbanded its military tomorrow morning, do you really believe that it would have no foreign or domestic enemies?

    ( please omit the jive about the government being the only enemy and all that )

    Phantom, on May 20th, 2014 at 4:51 PM Said:

    Even neutral countries like Finland have a competent internal and external intelligence capability.

    The world still has dangers, you know.

    The NSA gathers more data on American citizens than it does about foreigners, Edward Snowden has said. During an acceptance speech for a “truth-telling” prize, the whistleblower attacked NSA head, James Clapper, for lying about US surveillance.

    “We watch our own people more closely than anyone else in the world,” said Edward Snowden, appearing in a live video link at the 11th annual Ridenhour Prizes ceremony in Washington. He was greeted by a standing ovation from the audience when he received the Ridenhour Award for “Truth-Telling.”

    http://rt.com/news/156088-nsa-spies-americans-russians/

  18. The dystopian fantasies of yesteryear are now a reality. We’ve allowed the coming of an age where the civil liberties our forefathers fought so hard for are being eroded by the day. Freedom of Press, Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly are mere ghostly images of their original intent. We’ve woken up to an Orwellian Society of Fear where anyone is at the mercy of being labeled a terrorist for standing up for rights we took for granted just over a decade ago. Read about how we’re waging war against ourselves at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/09/living-in-society-of-fear-ten

  19. The NRA has membership of 5 million out of a population of 300 million.

    And that’s after a big increase in membership after the Newtown massacre.

  20. States have to protect themselves. There have always been spies, and all this stuff is but the latest manifestation.
    I think one of the problems is that when a big, powerful country manipulates and interferes in the affairs of other states there will always be reaction.
    Another problem is that as a consequence the states who can, invest more in beefing up their security services. This then takes on a life of its own because departments demand bigger budgets, more personnel,newer equipment.
    Government in turn starts to demand more accountability, so more personnel are needed to present the case..
    Add a dash of paranoia into the mix and you then get situations like this.

  21. The Egyptians and other ancient peoples had spies.

    But now these guys are horrified that we have them now.

    And the spies don’t only protect ” states ” – they protect you and me.

  22. Yep, great Data mining there then ..

    Hamza: We made a mistake treating jailed hate cleric as a ‘ranter’ rather than a real threat, admits former chief prosecutor

    The hook-handed cleric is expected to die behind bars
    Federal court in New York found him guilty of aiding the taking of hostages
    Three Britons died in the Yemen attack 16 years ago

    Hamza delivered sermons outside Finsbury Park mosque during the 1990s

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2634198/Hamza-We-mistake-treating-jailed-hate-cleric-ranter-real-threat-admits-former-chief-prosecutor.html#ixzz32HpE4sAt

  23. Phantom – as I asked at 5.05pm, who are the enemies internal and external, and what is the nature of the threat?

  24. The external enemies of the US would be

    Various Islamic groups as respects terrorism

    China ( long term threat to US, near term threat to our Pacific allies )

    Russia

    But you knew that.

  25. Phantom – you are reminding of Mad Ralph from ‘Wait till your father gets home’.

    Exactly how is Russia a ‘threat’. There are no Russian troops in Mexico or even in your hemisphere, likewise for China. You are concerned that the Russians or Chinese are a threat to US military bases – close them down. Get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, leave Iran alone, stop meddling in Syria and Ukraine. The Russians and Chinese are a threat to your allies? As I see it, every country around China’s Pacific waters has been bought by Wall Street’s corporates (yes – even Vietnam), and the US real government is just waiting to use Taiwan to set things off.

    Get your troops and mercenaries out of other people’s countries and secure your borders.

  26. I won’t spend much time on it, Agit.

    Putin has taken it upon himself to be an enemy of the US, which is unfortunate but true.

    Their military is a bit hollowed out, and their economy is a lot hollowed out, but any country that large commanded by an enemy is a concern.

    The Chinese are a threat to our friends in Asia. That problem may blow up sooner than we think. Watch the South China Sea very carefully.

  27. Japan, Korea, Singapore and the Philippines may not love one another all the time, but they are all strong military allies with the US. We will defend them if we must.

    Vietnam, astonishingly, has become a de facto military ally of the US. This is largely due to the historic friendship between our peoples, which outlived the Vietnam War, but it is also due to the fear that the Vietnamese have for the vast, rich, increasingly predatory historic enemy to their north.

    Every move that China has made in recent years has driven these countries closer to the US.

    We have friendships in the Pacific region, the blundering Chinese really don’t. They’re making enemies.

  28. Putin has taken it upon himself to be an enemy of the US, which is unfortunate but true.

    yes – and this was the speech which confirmed it:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/28/whos-godless-now-russia-says-its-us/?page=all

    “Many Euro-Atlantic countries have moved away from their roots, including Christian values,” Russian President Vladimir Putin said in a recent keynote speech. “Policies are being pursued that place on the same level a multi-child family and a same-sex partnership, a faith in God and a belief in Satan. This is the path to degradation.”

    In his state of the nation address in mid-December, Mr. Putin also portrayed Russia as a staunch defender of “traditional values” against what he depicted as the morally bankrupt West. Social and religious conservatism, the former KGB officer insisted, is the only way to prevent the world from slipping into “chaotic darkness.”

    As part of this defense of “Christian values,” Russia has adopted a law banning “homosexual propaganda” and another that makes it a criminal offense to “insult” the religious sensibilities of believers.

    The law on religious sensibilities was adopted in the wake of a protest in Moscow’s largest cathedral by a female punk rock group against the Orthodox Church’s support of Mr. Putin. Kremlin-run television said the group’s “demonic” protest was funded by “some Americans.”

  29. As China makes unnecessary enemies in the Pacific, Putin makes unnecessary enemies in Europe.

    Don’t bet that either one has got it right just yet.

    Cheers.

  30. As always, follow the money and one sees the ‘threat’:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/vladimir-putin-and-the-de-dollarization-of-russia-china-trade-mutual-payments-in-rubles-and-renminbi/5383064

    PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA VLADIMIR PUTIN:

    “President Xi Jinping, ladies and gentlemen, friends,

    Cooperation between banks is also growing, and we will continue developing the financial infrastructure. Work is underway to increase the amount of mutual payments in national currencies, and we intend to consider new financial instruments…”

    That’s the threat – and it’s a threat to Wall Street and the dollar.

  31. “As China makes unnecessary enemies in the Pacific, Putin makes unnecessary enemies in Europe.

    Don’t bet that either one has got it right just yet.”

    Phantom, the only silver lining on the Russian cloud is that their demographics will do for them in the long term before they can ever rebuild themselves to a serious threat.
    The same, unfortunately, doesn’t apply to the great festering human antkill/hive, also known as China.

  32. the world is full of evil bloody bastards and everyone knows it. The United States has the technology to listen to every conversation, every phone call, every e-mail, every mouse fart anywhere on the globe.

    No matter what we say, or what we sign, or pledge we are going to listen to and analyze everyone, and everything. There is nothing anyone can do about it, and we ain’t gonna stop.

    The only concern is that no American citizen unless engaged in terrorism ever has this data used against him. That’s the only factor that needs to monitored and protected against.

    no one else counts

  33. Originalpatriot

    I want the Russian people to thrive.

    I take no joy in any social or other problems in their society

    They can do well in a world where the US and western Europe also do well

  34. Allan

    You and the gentleman from Essex are way way way too obsessed with money and finance.

    Write something that isn’t about money, race , or Jews, if you can possibly do it.

  35. Harri

    The only wars I know of, are the ones America started.

    Levels of spying?apartfrom going back to a pair of dark glasses, and a newspaper with two holes cut out for eyes .. oh and a trilby hat. if it was not for our glorious leaders and the Neo-cons, bankers, etc etc, we would not need to be spied upon at every twist and turn

    Stop being so paranoid, yes I agree probably most of the world despises you, but it’s your own dam fault.

    What a revealing depth of hate and ignorance you display.

  36. no your Anti-American. Your blinded by the hate you feel for my nation that you display on these pages daily. And don’t say I don’t hate America I hate it’s government. It’s such a bullshit copout.

    You revile our system, and you revile us.

  37. The only wars I know of, are the ones America started

    Then you don’t know very much, and have admitted it.

    Perhaps you may wish to retreat from blogging for a bit and study some history books.

    You presumably have access to a public library. You are invited to begin your studies here

    Thank me very much.

  38. Phantom – Churchill wrote his book on WW2, De Gaulle wrote his – but isn’t there some ‘detail’ which both of them inexplicably omitted?

  39. Allan@Aberdeen, on May 21st, 2014 at 2:57 PM Said:

    Phantom – Churchill wrote his book on WW2, De Gaulle wrote his – but isn’t there some ‘detail’ which both of them inexplicably omitted?

    Yep, Phantom will thankyou later Allan.

  40. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/churchill_holocaust_01.shtml

    On April 18 1945 General Eisenhower telephoned Churchill about the entry of his troops into a number of concentration camps in Western and Central Germany. That afternoon Churchill told the House of Commons of the ‘horror’ felt by the government at “the proofs of these frightful crimes now coming into view”, and he added:

    ‘The matter is of urgency, as of course, it is not possible to arrest the processes of decay in many cases. In view of this urgency, I have come to the conclusion that eight members of this House and two members of the House of Lords should form a Parliamentary Delegation and should travel out at once to the Supreme Headquarters, where General Eisenhower will make all necessary arrangements for their inspection of the scenes, whether in American or British sectors.’

  41. Harri – I’m sure that Phantom would appreciate the history lesson 🙂

    More seriously, the history which we were indoctrinated with taught is effectively a tissue of lies. We are told that events happened but we are not told why they happened. In order to find out why something happened, one is obliged to do one’s own research, and that requires mental faculties beyond the level of the ‘coincidence theorists’ who form the great majority at ATW as in wider society generally. As an example, one sees Phantom who not only rejects any findings contrary to what he was told at school/college etc but who actually derides anybody who wishes to check the background. The mantra is ‘I don’t want to know, and I don’t want you to know’.

  42. Troll writes:

    Remember I have no problem with the program. I support it.

    The only concern is that no American citizen unless engaged in terrorism ever has this data used against him. That’s the only factor that needs to monitored and protected against.

    no one else counts

    The problem is not simply the technology but the individuals and organisations tasked with consuming all that data. They may be looking for tell-tale signs of terrorist activity as you would interpret it, but you have no idea how they interpret that catch-all term. Do they mean Left Wing Activist? Environmental Activist? Occupy Activist? The answer of course is a resounding yes, because these people have been targets since before Hoover joined the FBI and long before the National Security Act of 1947.

    Lay on top of that the evidence that neo-liberal economics as a dominant state philosophy tends severely towards autocracy as the state become less legitimate for the majority of its inhabitants.

    Phantom writes:

    spies don’t only protect ” states ” – they protect you and me.

    Again, whose interpretation of a ‘state’ do you mean? The type of people who lie, to the very people they are “protecting”, about their own activities? But hey, what can go wrong with allowing an institution full access to our communication content and activity.

  43. An attempted diversion from the evader, but no mention in Churchill’s book (nor in De gaulle’s) of The Holocaust™

    That afternoon Churchill told the House of Commons of the ‘horror’ felt by the government at “the proofs of these frightful crimes now coming into view”

    Dresden? Hamburg? Cologne?

    Perhaps he means Dachau where prisoners starved as a result of Allied bombing or died of typhus owing to unavailability of necessary fumigants of lice. Here is Dachau as filmed on a tour of the ‘death camp’:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BywkrWVlVOs

    Hidden away in a locked room in Dachau’s “New Crematorium” is the pre-2003-ish museum sign which states that the gas chamber at Dachau was never used but was disguised as a working shower. One must therefore conclude that it really was a shower.

  44. Allan

    You love your wee youtubes.

    DT

    What type of internal and external surveillance do you think is appropriate?

    Our Dynamic Duo has evaded the question.

  45. Phantom – the videos direct from source bypass the opinion-formers leaving the facts sitting there to be seen for what they are. That’s why the internet is ‘dangerous’.

  46. Yes, and they save you the trouble of writing and thinking.

    You just cut and paste and badda boom, all done.

  47. What type of internal and external surveillance do you think is appropriate?

    Our Dynamic Duo has evaded the question.

    Selective memory man (it must be the state stooge training kicking in) I did try yesterday, nothing but nothing but total capitulation to the state will be good enough for you .. anyway to the question in another form

    How much state surveillance can democracy take?

    Phantom

    I asked you yesterday, ‘Do you believe that your beloved masters in the form of the state have a ‘cut-off’ point or a level of surveillance that would be deemed acceptable, or is there no end to it and the snooping into our private lives will merely escalate ?

    Here is that slippery slope again.

    European Union plans to fit all cars in the UK with tracker chips

    Published: May 12, 2014

    Starting next year every new car sold in in the United Kingdom will have a ‘black box’ device to track drivers’ movements. This is the new plan being imposed by the European Union.

    http://telematicswire.net/?p=18528

  48. The day has long passed when you thought you had nothing to fear, because you believed you had nothing to hide.

    That is not your decision any longer.

  49. No answering a question with a question.

    I will answer your black box question when you tell me what the proper level of surveillance the UK government should do, internally and externally.

    Should internet traffic be mined at all? All of it? Only some of it ( ie special attention to say traffic to and from Chechnya and Pakistan.? )

    What about monitoring of radical / terrorist symp groups? Or of air travel to say Syria and Iran- is there any legitimate interest in your spooks knowing about these?

    Should a judge’s order be needed, for monitoring only in cases of probable cause, in specific cases?

  50. It’s inevitable given technological advances and continuing threats to our wellbeing.

    How would you handle these problems Harri?

  51. If Pakistani nationals ( with no criminal record, legally in the country ) residing in say Bradford England send lots of email to Karachi and Yemen and the conversations include a lot of references to Zionism, radical preachers, jihad, along with information about the London Underground and flights into Heathrow- does your intel services have any legitimate interest in keeping an eye on such conversations?

  52. Phantom, on May 21st, 2014 at 4:04 PM Said:
    Yes, and they save you the trouble of writing and thinking.

    The thinking is already completed and all that need be put in place is the evidence in support of the thinking. As one sees from the post of 3.28pm, the thinking is done, the supporting evidence is linked, and the disputes on the thinking and evidence are……….non-existent.

    Harri – as we know, the problem with surveillance for our ‘protection’ is that when something bad happens, the surveillance fails by sheer chance – the Pentagon on 9/11, the most heavily scrutinised square mile in the US – cameras fail or have data confiscated; the airports where the supposed hijackers boarded their planes – cameras failed; 7/7 in the UK, cameras all failed on the destroyed bus and on the underground trains.

  53. Allan, you continue to fail to answer the question of the day.

    What is the acceptable level of internal and external surveillance that the UK government should engage in? What methods should be used?

    No more soft shoe please.

  54. Agit8ed, on May 21st, 2014 at 5:44 PM Said:

    It’s inevitable given technological advances and continuing threats to our wellbeing.

    ‘Continuing threats’ from whom, and from where exactly?

  55. Phantom, on May 21st, 2014 at 5:42 PM Said:

    No answering a question with a question.

    I will answer your black box question when you tell me what the proper level of surveillance the UK government should do, internally and externally.

    Should internet traffic be mined at all? All of it? Only some of it ( ie special attention to say traffic to and from Chechnya and Pakistan.? )

    What about monitoring of radical / terrorist symp groups? Or of air travel to say Syria and Iran- is there any legitimate interest in your spooks knowing about these?

    Should a judge’s order be needed, for monitoring only in cases of probable cause, in specific cases?

    Yes to all, profiling is not racist.

  56. Very good, Harri.

    Every good cop profiles.

    And so does everyone else on the planet.

    Nothing wrong with it.

  57. Phantom, on May 21st, 2014 at 7:26 PM Said:

    Very good, Harri.

    Every good cop profiles.

    And so does everyone else on the planet.

    Nothing wrong with it.

    I thought there were screams of ‘Wayyycist’ when profilling is mentioned.

    Why do the TSA not work to the same rule?

  58. Europe Develops RFID License Plate Tracking
    European Union spends $10 million to develop advanced system to track motorists and issue tickets for minor infractions.

    The European Union is spending 8.1 million Euros (US $10.3 million) on wireless tracking systems designed to allow authorities to issue automated tickets for increasingly minor traffic infractions. Pilot projects underway in Finland, France and Germany use systems designed by the VTT Technical Research Center of Finland as part of a project called ASSET-Road. Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) is a key component in achieving the goal described as “traffic violations detected in a flash.” Many of the ideas have already made their way to the United States.

    http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2620.asp

  59. To some extent, I bet that they do.

    But does the TSA search old ladies and young children? Yes – and they should – for reasons stated on these pages a million times.

  60. What about the other ‘World Leaders’ across the EU ‘Angela Merkel’ being one of them .. don’t the NSA trust them either?

  61. I was not happy with the bugging of Angela Merkel and other allies.

    I am sure that this type of thing has happened before, but I don’t like it.

  62. What is the acceptable level of internal and external surveillance that the UK government should engage in? What methods should be used?

    It’s not possible to answer that and I’ll explain why. As in the US, certain sectors of government or shadow-government are the facilitators and enablers of those who do harm to the wider public. These ‘sectors’ are able to shut down surveillance at key moments (7/7), are able to eliminate any rogue elements (Dr David Kelly), are able to place their own agents into positions where they appear opposed to the Establishment (Choudhary) but are actually working for it. The purpose is to create the danger against which their other hands will protect us – by removing our freedoms and ancient liberties ‘for our own good’. That’s why the ‘danger’ is allowed into our countries. No internal muslims: no internal muslim threat: no need for ‘surveillance’ and loss of liberties.

  63. That’s why the ‘danger’ is allowed into our countries. No internal muslims: no internal muslim threat: no need for ‘surveillance’ and loss of liberties.

    The Hegelian Dialectic, or otherwise known as ‘Problem solving reaction’ .. all totalitarian governments use it against there own people.

    The sheep now herd themselves.

  64. What type of internal and external surveillance do you think is appropriate?

    Its not an easy question to answer. Because the reason it exists is fundemental to the paradigm in which it exists. Maybe you can explain why the self proclaimed leader of free people everywhere wants to capture every living persons communications, because im at a complete loss.

    Why does the free world need an intel data centre the size of a town (in the middle of the country), when the alleged threat is relatively minute and located on the other side of the planet and utilising communications that are penetrated locally, and arguably much more simply (one key fibre optic trunk serves most of the ME)?

    When surveillance becomes that absolute there is only one word that fits the description. Totalitarian.

    And it should be plain to see, if you are honest enough to look further into snowdens revelations, that this surveillance has nothing to do with Islamist threats. It is, as i said on this very site many many years ago, that you and I are the real targets of interest as we pose the greater threat to the neo liberal utopia (feudalism). If too many people wake up and realise theyve been robbed, THEY need to know about it straight away. Political activism can be extinguished long before its given air and light. Old methods of brute force are no longer valid.

    So if you want my honest answer to your question then i say none at all and i will accept the alleged risk posed by the non existent al queda.

  65. allan you won’t appreciate this but I thinks it’s funny. Whenever I read your tripe this scene comes to mind.

    I think of you as the guy on the Bridge and I’m Jake and Phantom is Elwood….

    ya gotta watch the whole thing… 😉

    I know two minutes is a bit long for you…. but try it’s worth it.

  66. Daytripper

    the answer to your question of why is very simple. The world is a dangerous place.

    If you read how the data is supposed to be used you would understand the use of it. The question is how to make sure it is used in that way.

  67. The world is a dangerous place.

    To quote the Texas messiah, “Yeah because of you, you focker.”

    And again, I argue who’s interpretation of danger counts? When institutional budgets are determined by the levels of danger you can be sure that they will find you the danger you need to secure their budget.

    If you read how the data is supposed to be used you would understand the use of it. The question is how to make sure it is used in that way.

    As I originally argued, that is irrelevant. You may think they are reading the data with respect to some dodgy arabs or persians, but i would contest that middle class white left-wing activist is getting the same treatment via the same justifications. And I honestly dont think you particularly care about that either. See Pastor Niemoller.

    Also, the law catches up to the practices, not the other way round. Plus you have to account for the future. A bit like the recent precedents of state assassination of US citizens.

    A future leader with less scruples has all the tools to spy on and eliminate anyone he chooses. And all within a legitimate framework of laws.

  68. Fair points from daytripper, though I have no idea what anyone means when talk of neoliberalism.

  69. daytripper, on May 22nd, 2014 at 4:44 PM Said:

    The world is a dangerous place.

    To quote the Texas messiah, “Yeah because of you, you focker.”

    Precisely the point I have been trying (in vain) to make.

  70. If you made a better argument, it might not be in vain.

    Evil and internal / external threats have existed for a long time, even before the days of GW Bush and Dick Cheney.

    Which is why the earliest Kings of England would have had intelligence services of some kind, as did the ancient Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese, etc

    Of course they didn’t data mine the internet then, so I guess that’s some sort of a point.

  71. Of course they didn’t data mine the internet then, so I guess that’s some sort of a point.

    Or constantly carry out false-flag attacks.

  72. allan you won’t appreciate this but I thinks it’s funny. Whenever I read your tripe this scene comes to mind.

    I think of you as the guy on the Bridge and I’m Jake and Phantom is Elwood….

    Ah – the Blues Brothers, and in Illinois too. What’s below is the reality of Illinois. What would Jake and Elwood do? Probably nothing, because the ‘groid responsible for the murders described below is ‘a victim of racism and white oppression’ as I’m sure that you would agree – “drugs and poverty” etc:

    http://www.kfvs12.com/story/25530951/cairo-pd-search-for-armed-dangerous-suspect-after-bank-robbery

    James Nathaniel Watts appeared in federal court for a detention hearing on Tuesday afternoon in Benton, Illinois.

    Watts was arrested as a suspect in connection with an armed robbery at the First National Bank in Cairo that left two people dead, according to Illinois State Police.

    Anita J. Grace, 52, of Olive Branch, Ill., and Nita J. Smith, 52, of Wickliffe, Ky. were killed after they were stabbed.

    A 23-year-old employee was also stabbed. She was in critical condition. As of late Sunday afternoon, she was released from the hospital. Her identity has not been released.

    Watts just got out of prison less than a month ago. He was released on April 29 from an Illinois correctional facility, according to Vinelink.

    Watts has also been convicted of forgery in Illinois and served time for that conviction.

    Watt is a registered sex offender in Illinois. According to the sex offender registry, at the time of the crime Watts was 22 and the victim 11 years old.
    Folks in Cairo are shocked by the violence in their hometown.

    Troll – whenever I read your tripe, this scene comes to mind.

  73. Pete, neo liberalism is merely my catch all term for financial liberalisation. The liberty of financial institutions to create and move capital is all that really matters, and there is little else that is liberal in the system. Which is why the paradigm seeks to systemically protect itself from its main threats. Mostly the labour forces or as i like to call them, people. In Asia or LatAm violence can still be effective, but in post industrial West that wont work, so more sophisticated methods are required, part of which i would argue PRISM etc are.

    Phantom

    Evil and internal / external threats have existed for a long time, even before the days of GW Bush and Dick Cheney.

    And they can be tackled through civilised means.

    As for Cheney etc, some of us understood the goings on of these same vulcans the first time round. Their deep state criminal activities had been well documented long before 911. Most of bushes whitehouse should have been in jail, not government office.

    Which is why the earliest Kings of England would have had intelligence services of some kind, as did the ancient Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese, etc

    Well thats ssort of the point. The paranoid activities of despots is no benchmark to target. And nobody is arguing against having inteligence systems in place. But when u simply dragnet an entire planet you have gone beyond any boundaries of normality and expose your motives as almost entirely false. Unfortunately most people still dont get it, nor what is truely at stake. The next two generations wont thank us, thats for sure.

  74. constantly carry out false-flag attacks.

    Dude, Roman emporers made their bones by fabricating wars with distant tribes and then romping off to anihilate them.

  75. daytripper, on May 22nd, 2014 at 10:18 PM Said:

    constantly carry out false-flag attacks.

    Dude, Roman emporers made their bones by fabricating wars with distant tribes and then romping off to anihilate them.

    Nothing has changed much then.

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