23 2 mins 9 yrs

Fox accuses hens of raiding the coop

Federal prosecutors have filed a sealed criminal complaint against Edward Snowden. The United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant. Snowden was charged with espionage, theft and conversion of government property.

The Telegraph reports the possiblility of Hong Kong authorities complying, though I’d have thought that Peking would rather like to keep Snowden on their turf. He knows the extent and methods of US state security organs. You’d think that the Chinese government would like a chat with him at least rather than hand him back.

Michael Rozeff posits an interesting question: how would Americans have regarded the hypothetical whistle-blower Eduard Snowdenski, who might have spilled the beans on te NKVD prior to defecting? Probably a brave hero, I’d say.

What a surprise that GCHQ is chief among the snoopers. According to The Guardian’s latest leaks from Snowden, those parasitic doughnut-munchers have programmes “aimed at scooping up as much online and telephone traffic as possible”, and that “this is all being carried out without any form of public acknowledgement or debate”.

“It’s not just a US problem. The UK has a huge dog in this fight,” Snowden told the Guardian. “They [GCHQ] are worse than the US.”

Did politicians have any idea that GCHQ has been strip mining our private information and handing it all over to their fellow doughnut-munching parasites in the US? Either (as I suspect) they did not, or they did, which suggests they’re complicit in espionage against the British people for and on behalf of a foreign country.

Citizens are reminded that terrorists hate us for our freedoms.

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  1. According to The Guardian’s latest leaks from Snowden, those parasitic doughnut-munchers have programmes “aimed at scooping up as much online and telephone traffic as possible”, and that “this is all being carried out without any form of public acknowledgement or debate”.

    Needless to say, they “have let it be known” that a few paedophiles and a terrorist plot have been nailed from this data. So that’s all right then. Unfortunately there are millions in the UK who think just like this, and they are well-represented among our political class.

  2. Of course the government charges him – he’s exposed them for the control freaks they are.

    Big Gov. is not making us safer – we need to be protected from Big Gov.

    Odd times when Im siding against Bush, Cheney, Troll, Obama, overuse of drones and surveilllance ….and I agree with Bill Ayers.

  3. Patty –

    Odd times indeed, but if you agree with Bill Ayres on something, so be it. We’re seeing that Left vs Right is redundant here.

    It’s authoritarianism and the total surveillance state vs liberty. Now that Edward Snowden has forced the issue, it’s instructive to see who sides with liberty and who sides with government. Remember the names, because some of those who are regimists have spent years talking about liberty and the constitution. Now we can see it was all blarney.

    Talking of which, remember when McCain was banging on about building the ding dang darn fence in Arizona? That was a load of old flannel too, eh?

  4. I’m not sure in 2001 it was all blarney – we did know we had an enemy was at that time and we were devising and searching for a means to fight back against terrorism – home grown and otherwise –

    but it’s 2012 and our government (Bush and Obama) have never called out “Islamic terrorism,” the drone program has been expanded for no apparent reason and no terrorism is being stopped by spying on my phone calls.

    Bush’s foreign policy had major flaws and Obama’s foreign policy is incoherent.

    It is criminal to kill others and to allow others to be killed in the line of duty for no good reason – and yet, this is what the Obama Admin. is now doing.

    Regarding McCain and his approach towards border security – he was never believable on this issue – in California, his nick-name was McAmnesty.

  5. McCain is a wacko, and a traitor.

    The drone program is the only part of Obamas persecution of the war he has gotten right.

    It is NOT criminal to kill the enemy, or spies. Sorry but that’s the way it is. Traitors got their trial and then an execution.

    I don’t have a problem the surveillance, only how it is used.

  6. Here in the UK we’ve had two successive governments that have indirectly imported terrorists through mass immigration.
    Having done that, the government then says it needs to protect us by monitoring our airwaves, which is a bit rich when you think about it.
    But this is the perfect example of Divide and Rule: That is, bring in the enemy then say we have to keep an eye on you for your own protection.

    As I said, divide & rule: the first steps of a totalitarian government.

  7. Troll – it’s like this. Everything you say and do is recorded although you are fully observant of the law. You get into a minor altercation over some idiotic regulation and then, everything you ever said and did is reviewed and distorted until…….there is a criminal case against you for whatever the authorities wish it to be.

    The capacity to record EVERYTHING is now in place – or is that just a conspiracy theory?


    As privacy advocates and security experts debate the validity of the National Security Agency’s massive data gathering operations, the agency is putting the finishing touches on its biggest data farm yet.

    The gargantuan $1.2 billion complex at a National Guard base 26 miles south of Salt Lake City features 1.5 million square feet of top secret space. High-performance NSA computers alone will fill up 100,000 square feet.

    The Utah Data Center is a data farm that will begin harvesting emails, phone records, text messages and other electronic data in September.

    The NSA’s Utah Data Center will be able to handle and process five zettabytes of data, according to William Binney, a former NSA technical director turned whistleblower. Binney’s calculation is an estimate. An NSA spokeswoman says the actual data capacity of the center is classified.

    “They would have plenty of space with five zettabytes to store at least something on the order of 100 years worth of the worldwide communications, phones and emails and stuff like that,” Binney asserts, “and then have plenty of space left over to do any kind of parallel processing to try to break codes.”

    It looks like a conspiracy reality.

  8. Allan every piece of electronic information has been monitored since the early 50s. None of this is new.

    The only reason anyone is suddenly concerned is because of scandals like the current IRS scandal.

    Obama has shown that he and his people have and will do exactly what you state. Use the collected information as a tool for blackmail NOT security.

  9. Troll – everything is being recorded. There has never been the capacity to record everything until now. Given the malice at the centre of government and the creation of ‘thought crimes’, there will be no way that anybody could escape a criminal case being contrived from all communications made. Just take the example of me – if ‘holocaust denial’ (let’s put aside the debate) were to be made illegal in the UK and enforced retrospectively then I’m jailed, but that’s just an example. It could be arguments which you have made here or something you said on a mobile phone call – anything goes, and they’ll do it.

    Indeed the only person on here who thinks he would escape such contrived crime would be Phantom, because he favours the big state security apparatus.

  10. Allan

    The CIA, FBI, NSA and the US Military are very much the good guys in my book. I got their back and they have mine.

    Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

    Let there be no misunderstanding.

  11. “…every piece of electronic information has been monitored since the early 50s.”

    There were internet providers, google, skype, twitter, AT&T – centralizing data base in the cloud – in the 1950’s??

    My God! I didn’t know that!!!

  12. I guess Snowden isn’t telling us anything everybody doesn’t already know if it’s been going on since the 1950’s. I guess it’s no big deal, then, and he doesn’t have to be assassinated as a spy, Troll.

    lol. wait… is that a tiny spy camera drone? or a mosquito? …outside my window.

    ..or is it a 1950’s Chevrolet, perhaps?

  13. This whole Snowden topic doesn’t interest me much.

    Anybody paying scant attention knew invasive security measures had become common practice after 9/11, the current sound and fury strikes me as whiny, hypocritical, partisan nonsense.

    If it didn’t bother you under Bush, it shouldn’t bother you under Obama. If it bothered you under Bush, but not so much now, then shame on you for giving Obama a pass.

    The American people, by and large, don’t really care if the government is watching their every keystroke.

    Although that passive state of mind could turn on a dime if they ever found themselves in a state of constant fear and stagnant poverty.

  14. “If it didn’t bother you under Bush, it shouldn’t bother you under Obama.”


  15. “The American people, by and large, don’t really care if the government is watching their every keystroke.”

    double nonsense.

  16. Patty
    since the early 50s the NSA has been monitoring every form of communication. No there was no google etc, but there was Ma Bell and radio. You remember those things don’t you?

    The worlds telecommunication systems have always since the end of WWII been monitored in the 50s a huge complex was built in Virginia to monitor all communications domestic and foreign. As the technology got better so did the surveillance.

    It was how we were able to reduce our spy networks from agents to machines. With the advent of satellite communication our ability to intercept and monitor communications got even better and after the Church Committee hearings in 75 over 90% of our intelligence was gathered by the machines.

    You never heard anyone say that if you said certain words over the phone like Bomb, President etc in the same call that it would be flagged? If you have then what did you think they were talking about? and if you haven’t well then you haven’t been paying attention very long.

    With the further advancement of the everyday electronics that we and the rest of the world use that monitoring increased and got better.

    You know to think this began in 2001 is naive. What the Patriot Act did was to try to put the information that we were already gathering into a set of rules that could be used in a court. The ability and the act of getting that information had already existed for a long time.

    You snarky quips only show how little you have really paid attention. You only insult yourself with them, not me. I like you and respect you, but there are areas you really need to grow up about.

  17. you see you really need to educate yourself in this area. This just HISTORY repeating itself. Here is a little bit of what was discussed in the Church Committee hearing in the early 70s

    A series of troubling revelations started to appear in the press concerning intelligence activities. First came the revelations of Christopher Pyle in January 1970 of the U.S. Army’s spying on the civilian population[1][2] and Sam Ervin’s Senate investigations produced more revelations.[3] Then on December 22, 1974, The New York Times published a lengthy article by Seymour Hersh detailing operations engaged in by the CIA over the years that had been dubbed the “family jewels”. Covert action programs involving assassination attempts against foreign leaders and covert attempts to subvert foreign governments were reported for the first time. In addition, the article discussed efforts by intelligence agencies to collect information on the political activities of US citizens.[4]

    These revelations convinced many Senators and Representatives that the Congress itself had been too lax, trusting, and naive in carrying out its oversight responsibilities.

    All this has happened before.

    here is a speach given by Pyle back in 2004 that puts some perspective on where things are now, he gave it in 2004, but he first testified about these things in 1970. There is a lot I disagree with his views, but I use this to point out that it’s nothing new


    remember or learn that The National Security Agency took over responsibility for all U.S. Government encryption systems when it was formed in 1952

  18. Troll – given that Phantom and I recently established that the kill ratio between automobiles and domestic terrorism in the US is about 2000:1 (that’s two thousand to one), would you not say that the vast expense of the security state apparatus is money spent in the wrong area if saving lives is the motivation?

  19. Troll: You insult all of us by claiming that stalin-like tactics are justified and that since the 1950s electronic surveillance has been pervasive.

    1. Its not the 1950s and while human nature hasn’t changed, electronics sure have. What happened in the 1950s electronically is largely irrelevant now.

    2. The O Admin. – in Congress, in March – denied under oath this type of surveillance. “Everyone” didn’t know the extent of wiretapping etc. even though Daphne claims so.

    3. The Obama Admin. doesn’t know who are enemy is…is it the Tea Party? and yet you declare that the CIA should run around and kill “spies.”

    You seek to provoke when you claim in a macho fashion that the US has a right to kill without trial non citizen spies. You shouldn’t be surprised that you provoked me.

  20. Allan

    Muslim terrorists wish to murder many more than they have.

    Were it not for US and intenational intel gathering and sharing ( incl Russian and Chinese ) the body count would be exponentially higher than it has been.

  21. Phantom – I’ve said here for some time now that the muslim ‘terrorist’ is over-rated, and somebody agrees. :


    Before studying bankers I spent many years researching Islam and Muslims. I set out with images in my mind of angry bearded men burning American flags, but as the years went by I became more and more optimistic: beyond the frightening rhetoric and sensationalist television footage, ordinary Muslim people go about their day like all other human beings. The problem of radical Islam is smaller and more containable than Islamophobes believe.

    With bankers I have experienced an opposite trajectory. I started with the reassuring images in my mind of well-dressed bankers and their lobbyists; surely at some basic level these people knew what they were doing? But after two years I feel myself becoming deeply pessimistic and genuinely terrified. This system is highly dysfunctional, deeply entrenched, and enormously abusive, both to its own workers and the society it operates in. The problem really is exactly as bad as the “banker bashers” believe.

  22. Patty it has nothing to do with macho anything. and I insult no one by speaking the truth. If your insulted ask yourself why.

    The problem is not the intelligence gathering, it’s those that use it for the wrong purposes.

    Our votes have consequences. We as a people have an obligation to elect men and woman of good character to ward the levers and tools of power. All in all it is we the people that have done a poor job.

    You can’t roll back technology, and the only real job of our government is to protect the people so that we can live our lives. If we do not hold people who misuse those tools and power accountable then we have no one to blame but ourselves.

    The world is a nasty place, we have created great tools and weapons to protect us, we need those tools, and we need to be vigilant that those that have access to those tools use them properly.

    I’m sorry if the idea that spies get killed bothers you, maybe we should give them a hug.

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