130 2 mins 7 yrs

WArmed Forces Day

For many decades, the Labour Party has taken for granted that Scotland will provide it with dozens of MP’s. Currently, this sits at 41. But recent polling suggests a total meltdown as the uberleft SNP experience a massive resurgence in popularity.

Ed Miliband faces humiliation in Scotland after a poll revealed Labour could be left with just three Scottish MPs after next year’s general election. The Scottish National Party is now on course to secure more than 50 seats in May, meaning Alex Salmond could hold the balance of power at Westminster. Such a dramatic collapse in Labour’s support in Scotland could easily offset any gains made in England and Wales and destroy Mr Miliband’s hopes of getting into Downing Street.

The irony here is that the SNP surge may well deny Miliband any chance of a majority at Westminster BUT the SNP could then offer some sort of informal “understanding’ (short of a pact) that would allow Miliband to govern as a minority government.

This might just be what the UK needs to produce a real revolution as it means that the vast majority of ENGLISH voters will be essentially ignored. That cannot pass but it may ensure a massive vote in 2020 that will then restore the greatness of our country and banish the Left. Then again, if UKIP make the inroads I expect (and into LABOUR as well as Conservative heartlands) I suppose a Conservative/UKIP coalition becomes possible. However one looks at it, 2015 is going to see a seismic shift in UK politics and that alone should prove most interesting to watch!

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130 thoughts on “THE DEATH OF LABOUR IN SCOTLAND…

  1. I don’t think There will be a seismic shift in UK politics. There will probably end up being more than one general election (groan) and we will continue to have either a grudging coalition or a weak minority government and loads and loads of grudging middling compromises and little real or meaningful change in how power operates here.

  2. Actually if you look at the recent polls that isn’t the case.

    The most recent GB poll gives the overall levels at:

    LAB: 36%
    CON: 32%
    LD: 6%
    UKIP: 16%
    OTH: 9%

    The Scottish polls are:

    LAB: 26%
    CON: 13%
    LD: 6%
    NAT: 43%
    UKIP: 7%
    OTH: 5%

    The Welsh polls are:

    LAB: 38%
    CON: 23%
    LD: 7%
    NAT: 13%
    UKIP: 14%
    OTH: 5%

    This would mean that, after working out the relevant vote totals and minusing the Scottish and Welsh vote totals from the GB total that the English votes are:

    LAB: 37%
    CON: 34%
    LD: 6%
    UKIP: 17%
    OTH: 6%

    It would mean that Labour would have a plurality with English voters, a majority of English seats, and for what it is worth an overall majority in the House of Commons.

  3. David

    Let’s say at the next general election, Labour wins no seats at all, and that all the seats they hold now are taken by the Conservative candidates and that a Conservative super-majority ruled for the next 20 years.

    What exactly do you think would change?

  4. The vast majority of ENGLISH voters will be essentially ignored.

    Says the man who championed Scotland’s place in the union. Sauce for the goose and all that.

    I have family in Glasgow and my nine cousins, all dyed in the wool staunch Labourites to a man and woman, have said that after the referendum they will never vote Labour again

  5. That this country is now in such fragmented state, is beyond doubt, which rather prevents anyone, or any party from rectifying the numerous managerial and leadership mistakes of the past five or six decades.

    It isn’t merely our physical infrastructures that are so decrepit, our moral, legal, judicial, medical and ethical, structures, whether politically or religiously inspired are likewise in parlous states of neglect and disrepair.

    Euphemistically so many cans have been politically ‘kicked down the street’ that they now present an impassable barrier to any further tinkering and prevent any sustainable or worthwhile progress.

    Given the above, it seems that Farage, far from being an agent for repair and progress will, more than likely be elected more as a ‘historical sacrificial lamb’ than as a latter day ‘Drake’, called to dispense salvation, he will be seen historically as ‘carrying the can’ for his post WWII predecessors

    Sure the electorate have ‘struck the drum’, such a pity that the mess we are in is beyond repair.

  6. Paul

    Leaving aside any pro or anti union discussions

    You seem to feel that David wants Scotland to be ignored in the governance of the UK.

  7. I don’t know where you get that idea from Phantom haven’t suggested that all.

    The point is that David was arguing for the retention of Scotland in the union. A clear case of be careful what you wish for?

  8. If the SNP gets a majority of Scottish MPs then independence from London should simply be declared. That is exactly what UKIP would do for the UK wrt the EU.

  9. Wishing for Scotland to stay in does not mean that England should be treated shabbily.

    Allan above is rooting for Scottish politicians to override the rule expressed will of the people as per a very recent referendum.

    Big democracy supporter there.

  10. Wishing for Scotland to stay in does not mean that England should be treated shabbily

    No but if you wish to retain somewhere where arguably 47% of the electorate want independence you then must accept everything that that entails therein

  11. I’m told that parliamentary elections are democracy – and the latest result is what matters.

  12. If SNP overrides the expressed will of the voter in a single matter they may not remain so very popular for long

  13. It could also be speculated that they would become more popular.

    Would you agree with Allan’s point regarding UKIP and would that not also be overriding democracy?

  14. Independence is not the only issue of concern to the voters one might think.

    The Scottish voters have spoken on that one pretty clearly and very recently.

    If SNP wants to thumb its nose at the Scottish voters on this one, they can be my guest.

  15. Independence is not the only issue of concern to the voters one might think

    One might well think that but one might also think that it’s a burning issue for a hell of a lot of them.

    If the SNP finish as Kingmakers in Westminister unionists can hardly complain.

  16. Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 4:28 PM Said:
    If SNP overrides the expressed will of the voter in a single matter they may not remain so very popular for long

    Phnatom – are you aware that the electoral system in the UK ensures that a government is elected on a minority of votes, typically 40% being sufficient to get a one-party victory at the polls through a majority of MPs from that 40%?

  17. If the yeas won the referendum, London would have respected the will of the Scottish voter.

    The Scottish parliament does not have the power to declare any independence, especially if it were to come from a small electoral margin and against the expressed wish of the Scottish voter.

    If the SNP wants to play devious games – are they really talking about doing this or is this another of Allan’s delusions – Scotland will be the loser.

  18. The SNP’s current support tends not to be in areas that voted YES like Glasgow & Dundee but in the north and east of the country where the voters went very strongly for NO. If they were to campaign on a promise of more constitutional upheaval they could well put their existing seats t risk. That could be worth it if they win over Labour’s heartlands but it’s a gamble that could leave them empty handed.

  19. all dyed in the wool staunch Labourites to a man and woman, have said that after the referendum they will never vote Labour again

    I don’t wish to dissuade anyone from voting Labour but why would they (and lots of other voters it seems) be put off the party by the referendum? There was never any question that Labour is a unionist party and given the collapse in the oil price which the YES was banking on to make Scotland viable the warnings about the risks of independence seem to have been vindicated.

  20. Strong point

    Oil in the ground alone is no foundation for a real country’s economy.

    Esp when the recoverable amounts are declining, for resources that are out to sea and expensive to get to.

  21. They said it was the deviousness and dishonesty of the Scots Labour Party i the run up to the referendum made them have a volte face Ross.

    If the SNP wants to play devious games – are they really talking about doing this or is this another of Allan’s delusions – Scotland will be the loser

    Ambiguous nonsense. If the SNP become Westminister King makers they will dictate their price on their terms. That’s democracy.

  22. Should the will of the Scottish voters on matter of independence be respected, or should it not be respected?

    Yes or no will suffice.

  23. Phantom – the will of the Scottish people shall be determined in the forthcoming elections. If the SNP get a majority, one can conclude that the Scottish peopel have changed their minds since the referendum. After all, that result is only valid until superceded by the next.

  24. Has the SNP said that they will move to independence without getting approval from the Scottish voters for such an important issue in an referendum?

    The type of binding referendum that the SNP called for and which London agreed to. Which was held all of three and a half months ago.

    If a referendum was not meant to be a binding thing, why did the SNP push for it so hard before?

    Again, is the SNP saying that they will do this, or is this barstool Braveheart-ery from Allan and Paul.

  25. Yes or no will suffice

    Actually it won’t as would the election of the SNP as the largest party in Scotland not indicate that the electorate agree with independence?

  26. No. Absolutely not.

    It would be one of a number of issues of concern to be a sane voter in Scotland, including taxes, health care, education policy, etc.

    A sane person is concerned about many issues besides flags and all that.

  27. US commentators are generally pro English pro Scottish and pro British.

    We have no dog in this fight.

    Our only wish generally is that you guys sort it out and that you are fair to one another.

    I think that abrogating a referendum that SNP itself worked so hard to create, and which they would have said was binding had Britain lost it, would be a very dishonest thing to do.

    As well as meaningless – since so long as any of youze are in the EU you are not independent in any event.

  28. A sane person is concerned about many issues besides flags and all that

    You think that’s what it’s all about? You didn’t follow the various debates in the run up to the referendum?

    I think that abrogating a referendum that SNP itself worked so hard to create, and which they would have said was binding had Britain lost it, would be a very dishonest thing to do

    What if they were to push for another referendum?

    As well as meaningless – since so long as any of youze are in the EU you are not independent in any event

    Try telling the UK & Denmark that they don’t have fiscal independence.

  29. Phantom – what do you believe to be the central policy of the Scottish National Party? What do those who vote for the SNP believe it to be?

  30. You guys are provinces and not nations now, esp those who have the euro currency.

    I don’t say that as an insult, I say that as a fact.

    Neither SNP or Sinn Fein have the slightest interest in any independence for anybody over there. Those issues have quietly gone away, so quietly that it has not been noticed.

  31. Those issues have quietly gone away, so quietly that it has not been noticed.

    Surely, that’s why 44.7% voted for Scots independence three months ago.

  32. Do you believe that any European country – say Republic of Ireland or Spain or Austria is independent in any real sense of the word?

    I don’t buy that they are being oppressed – but if you really and truly think that they are independent, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I can sell you for a very good price.

  33. Can a country that has formalized and extensive oversight from abroad really be seen as independent?

    If SNP had its way the final say in very many things would move from Brussels to Brussels.

    There would be a difference but isn’t it really an emotional one rather than a lucid one?

  34. Do you believe that any European country – say Republic of Ireland or Spain or Austria is independent in any real sense of the word?

    That is a red herring Phantom. We’re talking about Scotland here not Ireland Spain or Austria. Each of those countries have mechanisms to succeed from the EU.

    Besides, if independence is such a non starter why do British unionists get their knickers in such a twist over the issue.

  35. They want the union to remain intact – which has been done

    The SNP says that they want Scotland to be independent, but have taken no steps to make it independent. They propose a different level of dependence and oversight. Which may be a fine thing, but they should change their name since there is no independence to be found in any of their platforms.

  36. They want the union to remain intact – which has been done

    But if it’s a none issue as you suggest why is it so contentious?

  37. The comparison between UKIP and the SNP declaring independence is not the same. If UKIP won a majority of seats at Westminster they would have the legal authority to leave the EU by passing an Act of Parliament. Scotland can only leave the UK if Westminster passes a similar Act of Parliament effecting that. The issue of the SNP winning the majority of Scottish seats is irrelevant. They would still be a minority party at the only place that is Sovereign, Westminster.

  38. Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 7:07 PM Said:
    If SNP had its way the final say in very many things would move from Brussels to Brussels.

    Phantom – let me put the rationale for Scottish ‘independence’ from a Unionist Republican – that’s me.

    UKIP is attempting to release the UK from the EU and may succeed in getting a majority of Britons to support its core policy but the Establishment is powerful and would ensure that the UK cannot escape, in all probability. Nonetheless, if the UK cannot get out, then Scotland might. If Scotland gets independence from the UK then it leaves the EU. A referendum would be required to get Scotland back in – I’ll campaign for ‘no’ – and then the members of the EU would have to allow Scotland in, which Spain is already pledged to veto because it doesn’t want to set a precedent for Catalonia.

  39. Colm – it has been done before. Are you going to tell me that a referendum was held in all-Ireland in December 1918? No – Sinn Fein simply declared independence after its electoral victory (in today’s geographical RoI) and formed its own government.

  40. The issue of the SNP winning the majority of Scottish seats is irrelevant. They would still be a minority party at the only place that is Sovereign, Westminster.

    See both my points regarding the SNP being Kingmakers in Westminster and pushing for another referendum above. What you explain is of course correct and shows the democratic anomaly of central gov at Westminster in the sense that it wouldn’t matter if 100% of Scots population wanted independence it would still be dependent on central gov passing an Act to allow it.

    I really don’t see how unionists can complain about this, they got what they wished for.

  41. What would be the point of the referendum if SNP was going to blow it off when its suits them?

    btw why is no one answering the question as to whether SNP was really contemplating this or if this was an example of Haggis Eating Surrender Monkey Deep Theory?

  42. Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 8:20 PM Said:
    What would be the point of the referendum if SNP was going to blow it off when its suits them?

    In order for it to ‘suit them’, there would have to be electoral support in the form of a clear election victory with a majority of MPs using the precedent of Ireland. As I wrote, it has been done before, and without a referendum.

  43. OK, so the referendum can be blown off by a bunch of politicians at will.

    Mike Bloomberg here blew off the term limits bill that the voters here had passed, aided by a conniving City Council.

    So your ideal political leader is Mike Bloomberg now I see.

  44. Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 8:33 PM Said:
    OK, so the referendum can be blown off by a bunch of politicians at will.

    No – it requires electoral support in the form of a clear election victory with a majority of MPs using the precedent of Ireland. As I wrote, it has been done before, and without a referendum.

  45. What would be the point of the referendum if SNP was going to blow it off when its suits them?

    So what would your solution be?

    Why is no one answering the question as to whether SNP was really contemplating this or if this was an example of Haggis Eating Surrender Monkey Deep Theory?

    Because it’s an impossible question to answer?

    For once I agree with Allan; 1918 is a possible precedent for Scotland to follow if it wished.

  46. Ireland did not become an independent state in 1918. What happened then was just an act of political theatre followed by the more serious war of independence. Ireland became an independent state when Westminster passed laws in 1921 to that effect. Of course the SNP could make the same declaration if they wish, but would they and Scotland be prepared to take the necessary action to give fuel to their independence demands that Irish Republicans were prepared to do from 1919-1921. ?

  47. Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 8:45 PM Said:
    The Scottish people gave their answer

    And there is soon to be a different answer, if the Scottish people so decide.

  48. Does anyone feel like answering the question on whether SNP is really believed to be contemplating this strategery, which would be bizarre after they lost the referendum that they had demanded?

  49. Allan

    Yes they would if an IRA style terror campaign started in Scotland. But this is all nonsense really, there is no Rebellious uprising mood in Scotland and the SNP in 2015 is not the same as Sinn Fein in 1915. There will be no UDI in Scotland despite your dreams of it happening Allan.

    In addition it is virtually certain that even if the SNP gain the majority of seats at the General Election the combined number of voters of the other parties (all pro-union) will outnumber them so the vote couldn’t even count as a new pro-independence referendum.

  50. For all intents and purposes (following the promises made by the main Unionist/Westminster parties) the referendum became a choice between independence and devo-max, not independence vs status quo. If the Unionist/Westminster parties renege on their promises and don’t introduce devo-max then the referendum result is irrelevant and so it is acceptable for people to ignore it.

  51. The solution, as per SNP precedent is a referendum. The last referendum took place five minutes ago, and already some are seeking to reverse the result of a vote among Scots.

  52. Seamus

    No, the referendum was purely about independence or union. The Devo Max business was just political spin. There is no assumption that the anti-independence vote wanted Devo max. It is nonsense to claim something that wasn’t on the ballot paper.

  53. Does anyone feel like answering the question on whether SNP is really believed to be contemplating this strategery, which would be bizarre after they lost the referendum that they had demanded?

    The raison d’etre for the SNP is Scots independence Phantom. I know Scots nationalists who certainly wouldn’t agree that the independence debate is finished.

  54. Except that the only thing that was on the paper was Independence, Yes or No. The tone and tenor of the debate however gave the indication that the pro-union argument was devo-max. Failure to deliver on that would mean that the pro-union campaign deliberately misled the Scottish people.

    In my opinion that would render the result null and void.

    So yes, if there is a failure to follow through with the pro-union promises to the Scottish people there should be another referendum on the issue.

  55. These boys are like the EU.

    The Scots are to keep voting until they get it right or the vote is to be taken out of their hands if they don’t.

  56. Phantom, the campaign was on, for all intents and purposes, A vs B and B won. The government however decided to use that result and give the people C. They have a right in that regard to request and A vs C referendum.

  57. That was the official question on the ballot paper but do you really believe that was what the debate was about?

  58. There clearly will be changes to the powers that the Scottish Parliament has, and the devil in the detail will be negotiated and implemented following discussions between Westminster and the Scottish political parties. This is all separate from the independence referendum which was voted on and concluded. The only thing that will nullify that referendum will be a new referendum. Whatever else happens in the day to day hurly burly of politics does not nullify the result.

  59. The solution, as per SNP precedent is a referendum. The last referendum took place five minutes ago, and already some are seeking to reverse the result of a vote among Scots.

    If there is a referendum on leaving the EU in 2017 and the UK as a whole votes to leave but Scotland votes to stay, then another referendum on independence will be inevitable, and my bet would be for a yes vote. Farage would have achieved his Little England paradise.

  60. The issue was yes or no to independence.

    Three months later, these guys are saying f** that let’s do what we feel like regardless of what the voters said.

  61. //If there is a referendum on leaving the EU in 2017 and the UK as a whole votes to leave but Scotland votes to stay//

    Interesting, Peter.
    What would happen if a sizeable majority in England were to vote to leave and a corresponding majority in Scotland to stay?
    It would be funny if the Scots tip the balance and make a small pro-EU majority in the UK as a whole.

  62. Again irrelevant, if the UK votes to leave the EU in 2017, it will leave the EU. Where the votes geographically come from is immaterial.

  63. Where the votes geographically come from is immaterial.

    In theory. If Scotland had voted to stay in the EU there would be a constitutional crisis. Another independence referendum would be a certainty.

  64. The issue was not just yes or no to independence. The issue, as Colm said, was Independent Scotland vs Scotland within the UK. The debate also focused on the nature of an Independent Scotland as well as the nature of Scotland within the UK. Due to that the actual vote was on the basis of whether people preferred and Independent Scotland or the Scotland within the UK that was promised by the Unionist parties.

    So the Unionist parties have to give one of those two options the people of Scotland or come back to the people of Scotland and ask them another question.

  65. Peter

    There would not be a constitutional crisis. the UK is not a federal state. Results are not dependent on supra-state majorities. The UK is a singular entity. That the vote amongst Scots may have been different to the national outcome is no less material than if the votes in the ‘Home counties’ or London or the Midlands had been different.

  66. Colm,

    Technically that is true. There would not be a constitutional crisis.

    There would certainly be a political crisis. The principle reason for the growth in Scottish Nationalism was the perception that Scotland voted Labour and got Tory. So if Scotland votes No and gets Yes then there would be a crisis.

  67. The UK is a singular entity. That the vote amongst Scots may have been different to the national outcome is no less material than if the votes in the ‘Home counties’ or London or the Midlands had been different.

    See that democratic anomaly I was speaking about earlier.

    Three months later, these guys are saying f** that let’s do what we feel like regardless of what the voters said

    Where are they saying that?

  68. There would not be a constitutional crisis. There would certainly be a political crisis.

    Yes, but the political crisis could only be resolved by another referendum on independence. Given how close it was last time, in those circumstances a yes vote would bee very likely.

  69. Seamus

    Whenever any party wins an election their will be regions that voted the opposite. That is true in all elections and in all countries. That has always been the case and always will be . Southern England will have voted Tory during periods of Labour govt. and the same is true in many other different circumstances. Why should Scotland be singled out for cries of ‘unfairness’ ?

  70. Paul, it isn’t a democratic anomaly at all. It’s just an argument of where singular sovereignty should take precedence against local devolution and everyone has their own versions of where the limits/boundaries should apply.

  71. Because the relationship between Scotland and England is different from the relationship between the south of England and the North of England. They are two different countries, with while sharing a general identity have two very different, almost competing, national identities.

    You can complain all you want about it the fact is that the Scots do tend to favour independence more when they feel they are being dictated to by England.

  72. Peter

    Yes it is. All elections are ‘just elections’. They do what they say on the tin. If there is a single UK wide referendum then the result will and should be singulary applied. After all if the result was a narrow no vote but technically England voted yes to leave, what do you think would or should happen then ?

  73. // the UK is not a federal state. Results are not dependent on supra-state majorities. The UK is a singular entity. //

    Not necessarily, Colm. The fact that a referendum was allowed for a particular entity within the UK shows that that entity has a status different from that of, say, the Home Counties.
    And of course it has its own laws and courts and, now, government. And football team.

    Getting back to my scenario: If a majority in England voted to leave the EU but the majority in Scotland voting to stay in was large enough to create a UK-wide majority overall, why would England not be entitled to hold a referendum to leave the UK with Scotland, and thus exit the EU ?? If the Parliament can grant S – and accd. to the GFA also Northern Ireland – a referendum to leave, it can also grant the same to England. May sound mad now, but if UKIP become a partner in govt this year, it is not impossible.

  74. Paul, it isn’t a democratic anomaly at all.

    Of course it is. It’s almost the West Lothian Question in reverse.

  75. Seamus

    The Scots are not dictated to by England. Every Scottish vote is as equal as every English vote , and Scots will serve in governing cabinets and on opposing benches just as much as MPs from ever other region. It is not as if English Nationalist parties win elections and exclude Scottish politicians and people from power. To say Scotland is ‘dictated to’ by England is as daft and wrong as saying Yorkshire people are dictated to by the rest of the country.

  76. And if Scotland says No and England says Yes and the overall result is Yes then frankly England has dictated to the Scots.

  77. Noel

    Yes I know the political culture has allowed for regional anomalies and referendums to be applied but doesn’t that just prove the very reverse of the false claim that Scotland is ‘dictated to’. If anything else it is the opposite. The Scottish electorate probably has a more diverse range of real electoral power than the rest of the UK given the existence of a separate Scottish Parliament while also being full members of the UK.

  78. Was this the exact wording of the referendum. I do believe that it was.

    “Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes/No”

  79. Seamus

    No dictat at all. The United Kingdom has said Yes. That is the electorate, that is the democratic sovereign vote. Regional variations are as irrelevant as the votes in different cities or counties.

  80. California is much more dictated to by the other states of the US than Scotland is dictated to by England. As long as S has the option to leave (which the US states don’t), it is as free as any political entity, but chooses to remain in the UK while knowing that some decisions in London may not be to its benefit.

    I think the differences in this thread are that Seamus and Paul see S as a distinct nation and Colm doesn’t.

  81. Phantom it was.

    Was that what the debate was about? Are you suggesting there was no mention what so ever about the new powers Scotland would have if it voted No?

    Colm,

    Except that Scotland is not a region of the UK. It is a country of the UK.

  82. Seamus

    That is purely a descriptive albeit historical term. As I have mentioned before, the UK is not a federal state. It has a single sovereign parliament made up of constituency MPs . There is no geographical division of powers constitutionally, only regional devolved power in N.I. Wales and Scotland as approved by Westminster. Westminster alone can also remove all devolution. It is not the same situation as for example the political division of power in the US.

  83. “Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes/No”

    That question was put on 18th September 2014. The result has no duration and can be overturned by parliamentary election in 2015, and it may well be the case if sufficient numbers vote to do so.

  84. And Colm that is all constitutional theory, in the same way that the Crown is still a major force in British politics.

  85. So why was a referendum the way to go in September but it is not the right way to go three months later

    You are like the EU. You propose to get what you want by any means necessary.

  86. That question was put on 18th September 2014. The result has no duration and can be overturned by parliamentary election in 2015, and it may well be the case if sufficient numbers vote to do so.

    Only if the majority of all the seats at Westminster go to the SNP and even you Allan must admit that no matter how wildly succesfull Nicola’s gang may be, they aren’t going to achieve that !

  87. I’m not saying that Phantom. A new referendum would be the correct measure (if Westminster fails to deliver on its promises).

  88. No, I mean Allan said that

    Allan@Aberdeen, on December 29th, 2014 at 4:00 PM Said:

    If the SNP gets a majority of Scottish MPs then independence from London should simply be declared. That is exactly what UKIP would do for the UK wrt the EU.

  89. Seamus

    A new referendum would only be required if politicians failed to implement the wishes expressed in the original referendum. The result of that one was the desire to stay in the union. As far as I know Westminster has maintained the wishes of the Scottish electorate… 🙂

  90. Except you and I and anyone else who has any minor understanding of the situation know that is not what the Scottish people voted for.

  91. I don’t pretend to know what they thought they were getting.

    The only Scot here is Allan and I’m not sure that he is speaking straight. He claims to be British but here is proposing to dismantle the joint.

  92. Originally it was as you and Colm were saying. A simple debate on the nature of Scottish Independence and whether the Scots wanted it or not. A few weeks before the referendum the Yes campaign started to register a lead in the polls and every single one of the Unionist parties in response to this offered the Scottish people a new deal if they voted No.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29443603

    That was what the No campaign had on offer. That is what a No vote meant.

  93. Seamus

    Fine, I bow to your wisdom that the Scottish people did not vote to stay in the Union despite the result that was universally announced 😉

  94. They did vote to stay in the Union but they voted to stay in a very different Union than the one that currently exists.

  95. You guys have the attention span of an unededucated gnat on this

    This vote was just held five minutes ago.

    Why are you hitting the panic button today?

    Wait a year or two until you can begin to see if London is doing what it said it would do.

    And they say that Americans are too impatient and short term?

  96. Have they brought forward any real plans to introduce them?

    Phantom,

    The deal was these new powers would be brought in before the 2015 General Election.

  97. The question was whether Scotland should be independent.

    If the Scots don’t like the entire picture, they should do another vote in ten years or so. You do not have votes like this every day, and you do not disenfranchise the voters the way Allan wants to do.

  98. Seamus

    NEWSFLASH! The general election is 5 months away. The Westminster parties have all made proposals and are still working out a package that parliament will accept. You are claiming a ‘dawn betrayal’ before the night is even over !

  99. They shouldn’t have one all the time. However if the Unionist parties offer a deal to win the referendum and then renege on that deal then the referendum is void in my opinion and a new one is needed.

  100. Colm,

    Parliament will be dissolved on the 30th of March (at the very latest). The House is in recess until the 5th of January and then goes into recess again for two weeks on the 12th of February. That is 43 parliamentary days to get the thing finished. This is a bill that hasn’t even been written yet. The time to pass Bills is normally measured in months and years not days.

  101. Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 10:43 PM Said:
    I don’t pretend to know what they thought they were getting.

    The only Scot here is Allan and I’m not sure that he is speaking straight. He claims to be British but here is proposing to dismantle the joint.

    Phantom – do you see my post at 7.55pm? Please read it.

  102. I read it.

    You lost.

    Wait a few more months before you decide to overrule the voters by means of trickery.

  103. Wait a few more months before you decide to overrule the voters by means of trickery

    First of all, it’s the voters who are being asked to overrule their previous decision – you do know that voters are being asked to vote, yes? Secondly, there is no binding duration on the result of the referendum. If there is, I’m sure that you could show it to me.

  104. No they are not.

    Independence ( which here is anything but ) is only one of a number of issues that an MP will campaign on.

    Only single issue automotons will base their vote solely on one issue to the exclusion of bread and butter and other issues.

  105. As before, the central policy of the Scottish National Party is known to voters and especially to those who shall vote for the SNP. If the SNP gets a majority of MPs, then declaration of independence is possible using Ireland as a precedent, as shown on previous links.

  106. As you sow, so shall you reap.

    Labour thought that when they set up their little Scottish Socialist Utopia, that the Conservatives and the SNP would never see power and that the Scots would keep them in power forever ! They even rigged the voting system for the Scottish Parliament so that the Nats would be hamstrung.

    How things have changed.

    The problem for the Socialists everywhere was, and is, is that when the Berlin wall came down, it marked the end of their vile little ideology. These people have been living in denial ever since.

  107. Allan

    According to your ‘SNP Majority’ justification The SNP are already the biggest party and are in power in the Scottish Parliament and have been since 2011. What is to stop them already declaring independence ?

    In addition, as I have explained before, the other 3 main parties are all pro-Union. They will almost certainly win more votes than the SNP even if the SNP win the majority of seats, so are you saying Scotland should declare independence on the basis of a minority of voters favouring the only independence party ?

  108. Colm – I assume that you are aware that the other parties in Parliament always get more votes than the party which forms government from its greater number of MPs. If it’s good enough for Lib/Lab/Con then it’s good enough for the SNP whose intention is in the name.

    As for the ‘Scottish parliament’, it doesn’t have sovereignty over Scotland. What remains of sovereignty resides in London and increasingly in Brussels so declaring independence from London in the manner of the RoI gets Scotland out of both London and Brussels thus returning sovereignty to Scotland. The SNP will then want to hand all of it to Brussels and that’s where we part company.

    As is the case with allthreads where Phantom takes a hammering, he resorts to ‘humour’ to cover his defeat:

    Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 8:49 PM Said:
    Does anyone feel like answering the question on whether SNP is really believed to be contemplating this strategery, which would be bizarre after they lost the referendum that they had demanded?

    Allan@Aberdeen, on December 29th, 2014 at 8:52 PM Said:
    Phantom – I don’t know. But it’s probable:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2764114/Salmond-lashes-totally-shameless-Westminster-leaders-tricking-Scottish-voters-rejecting-independence.html

    Defeated SNP leader Alex Salmond this morning accused Westminster of ‘tricking’ Scottish voters into rejecting separation – and suggested the country could declare independence without a referendum.

    Phantom, on December 29th, 2014 at 8:54 PM Said:
    Oh. A conspiracy.

    My.

    And then:

    Allan@Aberdeen, on December 30th, 2014 at 12:15 AM Said:
    As before, the central policy of the Scottish National Party is known to voters and especially to those who shall vote for the SNP. If the SNP gets a majority of MPs, then declaration of independence is possible using Ireland as a precedent, as shown on previous links.

    Phantom, on December 30th, 2014 at 10:18 AM Said:
    All hail, Allan the Brave, the newly minted king of Scottish nationalists

    It’s nostalgic as it reminds me of when I was at school – primary school, for 5 – 11 years-olds.

  109. Phantom – you see the post at 11.49pm which asks you to read the post at 7.55pm. Here it is for your benefit:

    UKIP is attempting to release the UK from the EU and may succeed in getting a majority of Britons to support its core policy but the Establishment is powerful and would ensure that the UK cannot escape, in all probability. Nonetheless, if the UK cannot get out, then Scotland might. If Scotland gets independence from the UK then it leaves the EU. A referendum would be required to get Scotland back in – I’ll campaign for ‘no’ – and then the members of the EU would have to allow Scotland in, which Spain is already pledged to veto because it doesn’t want to set a precedent for Catalonia.

    I’d reckon that everybody at ATW would understand that, though not necessarily agree with it. You can’t agree nor disagree because you don’t understand it.

  110. And if I hit Mega Millions on the same day that mahons buys a free round at Jeremy’s Ale House, we’ll all be pleased as punch.

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