139 1 min 4 yrs

The US stock market is heading straight down, a bad trend made much worse by President Trump’s announcement of major tariffs on aluminum and steel imports.

Trump isn’t consistent on many things, but he is on protectionism. I attended a speech that he gave in the nineties, when he bashed the Japanese, then, wanting the US to protect itself against Japanese imports.

Big tariffs can start trade wars, which ultimately aren’t good for anyone. A few of us said this in 2016.

These tariffs will definitely benefit some Americans in the short term. But they’ll also lead to more inflation. And harm US manufacturers and builders. And anyone that owns any stocks.

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139 thoughts on “The Trump Crash?

  1. I recall someone in here defending protectionism. He claimed that America’s economic growth in the 18th-Century was built on tariffs. I wonder who that was ..

  2. I said that the argument for protectionism should not be dismissed out of hand, and that America’s 19th Century growth was built on protectionism [ from European imports ]

    I stand by both comments, the second is entirely true, details upon request.

    And economic conditions are not the same as they were in 1860

  3. Why would this necessarily reduce the trade deficit?

    The US exports lots of manufactured products, and the steel and aluminum cost for those manufacturers just went up.

    This could increase the deficit.

    The US exports $53 billion of cars every year. To Canada, Mexico, lots of other nations too.

    The cost of those cars just went up, thanks to Trump. He has harmed this export trade.

    Car Exports by Country

  4. The president privately told the steel and aluminum executives this morning that he did not want any countries to be exempted from the order, according to an executive in the meeting. Trump said that if one country was exempted, all other countries would be in line to ask for those exemptions, and that that country would be a vehicle for transshipment.

    Things to remember when you’re told this is *really* a trade war with China:

    1) China’s not even a top 10 steel exporter to USA and already faces 160+ “unfair trade” duties here. Canada is #1, followed by Brazil, South Korea, Mexico and Russia.

    2) Most victims will be Americans (employees/consumers/exporters) and US NATO allies (who will likely retaliate)

    It’s a dumb policy move that serves Trump’s sense of demented nostalgia, nothing more. I’m sure MAGA land will rejoice when the cost of guns, ammo and pick-up trucks goes through the roof.

  5. The US and Canadian economies are as you know very tightly linked. We buy a lot of steel and cars from ( Ontario ) Canada, we also export both to them.

    https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/2017/q2/exports-us.pdf ( imports are greater than exports, but we export a lot )

    This sort of thing disrupts a relationship that is hugely beneficial to both nations.

    Trump doesn’t know anything about world trade. This is how trade wars start.

  6. Yep. He’s fatally ignorant on this issue and won’t trust his experts, Phantom. I’ve read Cohn has been pushing against this steel/aluminum idiocy, to no avail apparently.

    Can you believe he’s threatening to destroy NAFTA? We’ve never had someone so clueless in power. He doesn’t have the mental faculty to know what he doesn’t know. The man is all narcissistic ego, not a curious or reflective bent in his obese body.

  7. Looks like beer is going to get more expensive …

    MillerCoors statement: We are disappointed with President Trump’s announcement of a 10% tariff on aluminum. While we won’t know the details for a week, the Department of Defense recently reported that aluminum does not cause any national security issues. (1/3)

    Like most brewers, we are selling an increasing amount of our beers in aluminum cans, and this action will cause aluminum prices to rise. It is likely to lead to job losses across the beer industry. (2/3)

    We buy as much domestic can sheet aluminum as is available, however, there simply isn’t enough supply to satisfy the demands of American beverage makers like us. American workers and American consumers will suffer as a result of this misguided tariff. (3/3)

  8. Coors reference to national security measures is the sole reason Trump could justify these steel/aluminum tariffs – he claimed it was a national security measure, that’s the only way he could get it done.

  9. Worth a read, Phantom.

    “It’s entirely likely that raw materials will react quickly and dramatically. And scrap will probably react even more dramatically because it’s a more liquid market,” he said, noting that this is what happened when former President George W. Bush imposed Section 201 tariffs on imports in 2002 and 2003.

    The Bush administration rolled out its Section 201 safeguard in March 2002 and repealed them in December 2003.

    In the early part of 2002, US hot-rolled coil prices jumped by 62.5% within three months – from $12 per hundredweight ($240 per ton) in the first week of March to $19.50 per cwt by mid-June, according to American Metal Market’s pricing records. On the scrap side, Chicago No. 1 busheling prices jumped 29.6% from $89.50 per gross ton in March to $116 per ton in June.

    The takeaway is that blanket measures such as the Section 201 and Section 232 are effective ways to spur steel prices higher. The problem is that doesn’t translate into improved operating profits, according to Egge. “Prices for raw materials will increase. Prices for steel will increase. But will [mill] financial performance increase? We don’t see it changing dramatically,” he said.

  10. I dunno… I feel that protectionism, in the form of slapping tarrifs on imports, is really a backhanded form of wealth redistribution.
    So, let’s say we have a product, say soap, that the Russians (boo) can manufacture and import so that it costs less in the shops than if manufactured at home. So Trump (boo) slaps a big tarrif on imports so that it’s now more expensive than homegrown soap. (Not that homegrown soap is less expensive than it was before, mind). So now all 370 million consumers are a little bit poorer because they have to buy American soap, but 1000 jobs are saved. But the Russian soap industry will suffer, and their government will retaliate by putting tarrifs on certain USA-manufactured goods, resulting in USA job losses in other industries. Net result, losses on both sides.
    Isn’t it a better idea to allow markets to be as free and open as possible and to let different countries produce what they are best at producing and to trade those goods with those countries that aren’t so good at producing them?

  11. The answer is not easy, especially since governments can subsidize their own industries in order to capture a market, and destroy the business and jobs of competitors.

    And if you want to put the jobs of English or American workers in a free market against Those of Indian or Chinese workers, Apples for apples the Asian worker will be cheaper and all the western jobs will be lost

    The economic purist will think that this is all wonderful, because it’s not his job that will be lost and he thinks that we are only consumers and not anything else in this world

    But in the a highly interrelated We have now, you’d better be damn sophisticated if you’re going to play this game. And there is nothing in the background of Donald Trump that would lead anyone to think that he knows the first thing about international trade. His actions of today will harm American auto workers and those people in many other US industries. He doesn’t know what he’s doing

  12. A trade war is necessary…. for 60yrs we have been gladly getting stomped on trade. We did this as a general policy. The rest of the world could not compete on an equal level.

    A lot has changed over those 60yrs and a lot of our manufacturesers especially of steel were destroyed by this policy and the Unions. These factories and industries can and will comeback…. if the playing field is equal.

    If a nation charges us a 10-30% tarrif which most do that is what we HAVE TO charge them.

    Will this be all peaches and cream… will this be a disaster….

    The answer to both is NO.

    The rest of the world are supposed to be our equals, well they need to step up to the plate.

    Over a Trillion Dollars is already slated by corporations to invest in the US, but they will also have to be able to sell world wide as it stands now with the tariffs other nations put on OUR PRODUCTS prevents those exports from being competitive.

    It is time the playing field was leveled, everyone competing equally. Other nations have no incentive to lower the tariffs they have on us…. this is the first step to changing that.

  13. You never once said this before, and now you say it today as you kowtow before Trump

    Trump can make his meek flock change their position on anything!

    Next one to trade in his principles will be Pete Moore!

  14. really I’ve never said these things before……

    I’ve said them long before the idea of a Trumps Presidency was even a bad joke in 2008….

    I have said on multiple occasions that after WWII the US entered trade deal after trade deal that was detrimental to the US. We did so to support capitalism growth worldwide against the spread of communism. It was the right thing to do…. and guess what it worked. We won.

    Even the Chicoms are no longer communist…. it is time to compete on a level playing field and yes it will be ugly at times getting there, but it must be done.

    You know Phantom you need to get past your TDS not everything everyone on the opposite side of the table from you says what they say because of frigging Trump.

    I have said for almost two decades on this site…. Unions, Taxes, Environmentalists, and UNBALANCED TRADE destroyed our steel mkt. I come from a Steel State. Pittsburgh and Allentown are the two parts of the Buckle of the Rust Belt.

    Fire up the furnaces….

  15. Can you show us some of those “unbalanced trade” comments of yours from a few years ago

    I am sure that we would all love to read them

    I don’t think that they exist

    I think that this is the flip-flop of the ages that we have just seen here

  16. Canada weighs in…

    Canada’s Foreign Affairs Minister: “It is entirely inappropriate to view any trade with Canada as a national security threat… Should restrictions be imposed on Canadian steel and aluminum products, Canada will take responsive measures to defend its trade interests and workers.”

  17. Canada has been a very fair trade and defense partner since forever

    They have long cast their lot with the US, now they are kicked in the balls for it

    Trump doesn’t know what he’s doing


    I actually toured a big steel mill in Hamilton Ontario maybe 10 years ago. All of its operations were linked in two way trade with that company’s United States coal and steel operations

  18. “Import tariffs could boost employment and wages for the roughly 140,000 Americans who work in steel and aluminum production. They include heavy concentrations in the industrial states that tipped the 2016 election to Trump, including Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan. The beneficiaries include significant chunks of Trump’s blue-collar voter base as he struggles with weak approval ratings and daunting mid-term election forecasts.

    But the tariffs risk creating fallout among a Republican-friendly business community and the more affluent, college-educated voters in suburban areas who are likely to decide who controls Congress next year.

    Many more Americans work in industries that use steel as a component — including 1 million in automobile manufacturing alone — rather than in steel production itself. In those sectors, import tariffs will raise costs of production, and therefore the prices that consumers pay.

    Effects on other industries depend on how U.S. trading partners retaliate. Analysts across the spectrum agree there will be retaliation, perhaps directed at politically relevant targets such as bourbon (produced in Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s Kentucky), motorcycles (in House Speaker Paul Ryan’s Wisconsin), and U.S. agricultural products.

    The president’s announcement drew immediate fire from farm-state Republican Ben Sasse, who derided Trump for proposing “a massive tax increase on American families.” The Nebraska Republican added, “You’d expect a policy this bad from a leftist administration, not a supposedly Republican one.”


  19. This won’t fire up the furnaces. Those jobs aren’t coming back, neither are coal jobs. Time to move on, old men.

  20. When I visited that steel mill in Hamilton Ontario, I was astonished at how few workers there were

    Even if all steel production return to the US, only a fraction of the old jobs would come with them

    Trump and his zombie flock simply have no idea how automated a modern factory is; it’s amazing to see

  21. Go back to dreaming the Russians are coming!! The Russians are coming!!! Collusion!!! Where there’s smoke there’s fire!!! Trump colluded!!! lol

    I don’t mean to make fun of your various expertise, but…..POTUS has got this covered. You don’t have to worry about the economy.

  22. no Phantom you find any position that runs contrary to what I am saying…..

    It is you accusing me of lying present your evidence…. I need not prove a negative. If you are going to accuse me of lying it is up to you to prove it….. good luck

  23. frigging lefty wackjob games….. when did you stop beating your wife…..

    Back it up bubble boy

  24. ” WASHINGTON — Special counsel Robert Mueller is assembling a case for criminal charges against Russians who carried out the hacking and leaking of private information designed to hurt Democrats in the 2016 election, multiple current and former government officials familiar with the matter tell NBC News.

    Much like the indictment Mueller filed last month charging a different group of Russians in a social media trolling and illegal-ad-buying scheme, the possible new charges are expected to rely heavily on secret intelligence gathered by the CIA, the FBI, the National Security Agency (NSA) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), several of the officials say.”


  25. You’re not lying, but you have a horrible memory and you’re very confused

    Before Trump Came along, you were not making comments about any unfair trade deals, I doubt that anybody here would say that you were

    You are deep under the influence of Donald Trump, enjoy the ride

  26. Peter

    Question….. where did Mueller get the evidence of who hacked the DNC?

    The DNC NEVER TURNED THEIR COMPUTERS OVER TO THE FBI….. they sent them to an “independent” firm said they had them checked and then had them wiped before they were returned…

    So where and how did Mueller get any evidence……

    It’s FAKE NEWS…..

  27. Oh I have a horrible memory and I’m very confused…..

    You mean you can’t find anything to back up your false accusation…. put up or admit it is you who is pulling false facts out of thin air…..

  28. btw, NAFTA is coming up for renewal or rejection. Hold onto your MAGA hats!!

    Peter: we already have a trade “war” btw; China’s been dumping steel in the USA for a few years and the US steel mnfg. is hollowed out because of this.

  29. How can I prove that you never wrote anything criticizing trade deals five or 10 years ago?

    The request itself is evidence of a great confusion

  30. you have no problem saying that this has not been my position until the great carny showed up…. the burden is on you skippy, back up your accusation…

    oh wait you just admitted you can’t…. lmao

    My lack of presence on this site has caused your skills to grow dull dealing with the racists and the nazi’s and only one or two others of reasonable talent….

    try harder…..

  31. There is no such thing as “free trade,” Phantom – in the real world, trade is regulated by trade agreements not supply and demand so It’s not “protectionism” – it’s fair trade:

    ““If other countries are dumping their products on U.S. soil because they’re subsidizing them, whether that’s steel or aluminum, or anything else, this president has been very clear: We’re going to have fair trade. It’s not going to be free trade, it’s going to be fair trade,” Lewandowski continued. “We’re going to have a level playing field.”

  32. So all you lot are newly minted Trump protectionists now

    What a bunch of fakes and frauds!

    You guys are the best!

  33. Patty

    Trade is much freer than at any time in our lifetimes, probably freer than at any time in the last 150 years. Even if no Country had any tariffs at all, there would still be a flood of imports into the United States, because Asia Has a lot of very talented and hard-working workers who earn lower salaries than most Americans do

    You and Patrick are now making nearly the same Argument that Allan has made here many times, Usually to be criticized by me.

    Anyone who supports trade war is a complete idiot; I oppose the concept very strongly; once you start down that road there is no end to it. See the Great Depression

    The fakes phonies and frauds Were very recently bragging about how great the stock market was and how great the economy was humming along : Now they say that things are so desperate that a trade war against Canada and Europe is necessary.

    Trump does not know what he is doing yet they still follow him Will follow him down any road

  34. Car parts from Mexico and Canada just got a lot cheaper and american manufactured goods just took a kick in the balls, when it comes time for a new truck I will have to consider its nation of origin more than I ever have before

  35. I don’t like tariffs and think this is bad policy. But if you want to introduce tariffs there are ways to prepare the ground before announcing it. If that were done most of the shock to the financial markets could have been avoided. It seems there was little or no planning on introducing this, Trump just blurted it out against the advice of his key economic advisors. Of course, it is not just the tariffs themselves that worries, it is also the guy who introduced them and the apprehension of what else stupid he will do.

    I hope there is not a trade war. But many important countries see Trump as weak and incompetent and may think it is time to teach him a lesson. Then what will Trump do, bring in more tariffs and we will all be sunk by a major international trade war.

    If the US is getting stomped on trade, why are the profits of US companies that trade internationally so high?

  36. Pave the way…..

    You mean the year on the campaign trail saying it that wasn’t enough…..

    Canceling all the prior trade deals wasn’t enough…..

    1st year already achieving 60% of his campaign promises wasn’t enough….

    How much more warning do you need? The stock market will be fine…

    As for being protectionist… far from it. I’m a capitalist and I know no one can beat us at our own game. Unlike some here who try to spin I never spin. From me you get consistency.

    America first, always.

    If the threaten… attack

    If they kill one….. kill 1000

    Flood the market with cheap oil and collapse their economies.

    Defend Israel.

    and destroy Iran.

    I have been pilloried on these pages for two decades for being an American, for stating the simple truth… We are the best…. We are the favored of God….

    Now give us your hearts and minds,
    or we’ll burn your damn huts to the ground….

  37. US steel imports from China have actually decreased in the last year (down 5%). They get the bulk of their high value steel from Canada and the bulk of their low value steel from Brazil and Mexico. For what it is worth even with tariffs it is unlikely that the US could grow its low value (labour intensive) steel sector as the wages are simply to high. The average manufacturing worker in the US earns $19.50. The average worker in Mexico earns $2.70 an hour. The US cannot replicate that with tariffs. So in reality this isn’t going to cut the supply of cheap steel coming from Mexico or Brazil (or even China – small as their share is). It is going to hit high value steel coming from Canada and Germany.

    Also, using Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962 (which allows the President to import restrictions or tariffs for national security reasons) for what is clearly an economic policy would be a violation of the spirit of the law. Not really legally enforceable but it does allow for action to be taking at the WTO and allow other countries to engage in pretty wanton retaliation. Even the last time America imposed these type of tariffs (2002) there was substantial retaliation and that was when the US introduced their tariffs in a more conventional manner. So now that they are doing so in a practice that would make F Lee Bailey blush is going to spark a huge response from competitors.

    So Americans could be doubly hit by this. Firstly their own industries could suffer due to the lack of available cheap steal and aluminium, thus raising prices for their goods, but also American exporters could also wind up being hit with retaliatory tariffs. And not just from China (who actually won’t be that affected by these polices) but also Canada, the EU etc… who are the actual real sufferers from Trump’s tariffs.

    It is also more likely to hurt jobs in the United States rather than help jobs. More people work in industries buying steel and aluminium than work in the industries selling steel and aluminium. Back when America last tried this nonsense it is estimated to have cost around 200,000 US manufacturing jobs in 2002 when Bush put 30% tariffs on foreign steel.

  38. Emerald Pimpernel, on March 2nd, 2018 at 4:38 AM Said:
    Pat do you need your meds adjusted


  39. dunno which nurery rhyme best decreibes trump and his slavish devotees
    Humpty Dumpty or the Grand ol Duke of York
    it will end in tears, as a house built on sand cannot stand:

    Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
    All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
    Couldn’t put Humpty together again.

    The Grand old Duke of York he had ten thousand men
    He marched them up to the top of the hill
    And he marched them down again.
    When they were up, they were up
    And when they were down, they were down
    And when they were only halfway up
    They were neither up nor down

  40. The trade war Richard Nixon launched in 1971 was neither good nor easy to win. Instead, it brought a decade of stagflation. LIke Trump, Nixon was motivated entirely by winning votes from what Nixon literally called “the constituency of uneducated people.” http://www.theatlantic.com/pol…

    David Frum, Canadian-American small c conservative

  41. Donald J. Trump

    Verified account

    2h2 hours ago
    When a country Taxes our products coming in at, say, 50%, and we Tax the same product coming into our country at ZERO, not fair or smart. We will soon be starting RECIPROCAL TAXES so that we will charge the same thing as they charge us. $800 Billion Trade Deficit-have no choice!

  42. Please verify where Canada or the EU does any such thing.

    Don’t just believe what the Reality TV guy says without questioning anything.

  43. So is it an economic matter or a national security matter? Talking out of both sides of his mouth is Trump. Also what country has a 50% tariff on US steel?

  44. Pat that tweet is a crude way of reducing trade Adam Smith Wealth of Nations
    The reality is we all do things better, some in technology, some in services some sadly are reduced to trading with bananas. what Trump says may sound right, but its not reflective of the complex world we live in .. i’m sure it the word “complex” that is too much for the knuckleheads, who want to reduce everything to a binary.

  45. Pat just worships his hero and believes anything that he says. Patty is the same type of MAGA-head.

    Canada and the EU have fair trade arrangements with the US, so lets stick with them and watch the Trump Munchers squirm in their ignorance.

  46. The fact is that despite all of his bluster, and anti-China rhetoric, the main target of Trump’s economic attacks over the last year have actually been Canada. It has already cost the US a major defense order with Canada (who cancelled an order of 18 F/A-18 Super Hornets in December). The US actually has a trade surplus with Canada so it really doesn’t make any sense for them to be picking a trade fight with them.

  47. Canada is pretty much the best ally partner and neighbor that you could ever hope to have.

    The Trump actions are those of a completely ignorant man who knows nothing about international trade in manufactures.

    He has damaged US manufacturers significantly, damage that is just beginning.

  48. The fact is that if the likes of China or Mexico for example want to subsidise their steel industry then the West should actually welcome it. We already can’t compete with those countries in terms of cheap steel production (low-tech, labour intensive stuff). So the major impact on Western industries of the likes of China or Mexico flooding the market with cheap steel is that other industries and construction sectors get cheap inputs, lowering their overall costs, increasing their profits and growing their businesses. As I said early the average industry wage in the US is seven times that of Mexico. No tariff can make cheap steel competitive in the US.

    The major impact on this is on high value steel. The big thing about that is that it isn’t very labour intensive. So even if the US steel industry increases its profits, and grows its business slightly, by these tariffs, it would be a huge job creator.

    When you factor in the impact on other producers (now denied cheap[er] steel) and the impact on US exporters hit with retaliatory tariffs, and this is most likely going to be a job loser.

  49. The fact is that if the likes of China or Mexico for example want to subsidise their steel industry then the West should actually welcome it

    No that is a Pete Moore type of not real world argument. That type of stuff can’t be tolerated for a number of reasons, including the jobs impact.

    And why would Mexico even need to subsidize their steelmakers? All their costs are less than those of US steelmakers, and their transport costs would not be that great, being right next to Texas.

  50. “No that is a Pete Moore type of not real world argument. That type of stuff can’t be tolerated for a number of reasons, including the jobs impact.”

    There wouldn’t be a jobs impact because the bulk of the stuff they do the US don’t do anyway, and if they are doing it then it would be completely uncompetitive. Even if you balanced out the state subsidies with tariffs the US still can’t compete.

    “And why would Mexico even need to subsidize their steelmakers? All their costs are less than those of US steelmakers, and their transport costs would not be that great, being right next to Texas.”

    Because they aren’t competing against the United States. They are competing against China and Brazil.

  51. Wall Street decoupled itself from Main Street a long time ago, and the left/right Establishment is wedded to Wall Street. So what is good for Wall Street is bad for middle-America which is a place that most here were unaware of – until it voted for Trump. Trump is now delivering on the measures which shall bring back jobs to the heartland. What unemployed American worker needs a cheap TV from China when he can get back his job and recover his dignity and self-esteem from simply being in productive work?

  52. Allan, the average Mexican steelworker makes about 1/7th what the average American steelworker makes. How the hell are 25% tariffs going to help get a guy in Michigan his job back? Even with a 25% tariff it will still be a fuck load cheaper to make this stuff in Mexico than in America.

  53. Seamus – this isn’t just about one tariff. Once this one is imposed, the others will follow because it’s a necessary program. The 1/7th is what you are asking American steelworkers to drop their wages to so as to ‘compete’ in a fake market set up to benefit the very rich.

  54. I’m not asking American steelworkers to drop their wages. But paying them the same wage for a lower value product would be devastating to the US economy. The key to modern developed economies is increasing productivity (the amount of wealth created for every hour worked). It boosts the economy, it boosts jobs and it boosts wages.

    Going after low productivity jobs (labour intensive, low value industry jobs for example) will only be possible with a substantial drop in US wages, something that won’t benefit anyone.

  55. Pete

    We know that the EU can impose tariffs that are high

    My point is that they have been fair in their trade dealings with United States

    And even you can’t dispute that

  56. Seamus –

    The key to modern developed economies is increasing productivity (the amount of wealth created for every hour worked). It boosts the economy, it boosts jobs and it boosts wages.

    Interesting. You appear to be arguing against mass immigration by the low skilled.

    Going after low productivity jobs (labour intensive, low value industry jobs for example) will only be possible with a substantial drop in US wages, something that won’t benefit anyone.

    Oh yes, you’re definitely arguing against mass immigration, which lowers productivity and wages.

  57. Phantom –

    You and other anti-Trumpeteers complained about divvy Donald Trump, who knows nothing, raising import tariffs on steel, Chinese steel included. It’s as if he’s an outlier.

    I’m simply drawing your attention to the EU’s recently-imposed and sky-high tariffs.

  58. Pat you are right about laughing at yourself, most people take themselves entirely too seriously

  59. Trump is primarily attacking our friends here.

    He doesn’t know what he is doing.

  60. “because Asia Has a lot of very talented and hard-working workers who earn lower salaries than most Americans do”

    you mean: children working in substandard conditions for bare rations. I thought we outlawed this.

  61. “Oh yes, you’re definitely arguing against mass immigration, which lowers productivity and wages.”

    Actually most evidence suggests that an increase in immigration in the UK increases labour productivity ie (generate more value for the same money that a British worker would get). In addition those areas of the UK which have seen the largest numbers of immigrants did not see a decline in wages or employment.

    Migrants tend to (despite the popular image of them chasing benefits) move to the country where they will get the best for their skill set.

    Trying to map out the impact of low skilled immigration is hard to do in the UK as, overwhelmingly, migrants tend to be higher skilled than their UK counterparts.

  62. Even though I don’t think the EU tariffs on China will be particularly helpful (for the same reason that I don’t think Trump’s will be – and also why Obama’s 200% tariff on Chinese steel did piss all squared to help the US Steel industry) I think most people can tell the difference between a tariff on the predatory practices of one country and a universal tariff on all imports.

  63. The brain-deads, including the one in the White House, now think that the entire world is an unfair trader.

    Except for the USA, who is always fair.

  64. Really, Phantom? you are able to ignore child labor exploitation in Asia? weird set of morals you have there.

  65. So 25% tariffs on German steel will end the sex trade in Southeast Asia?

    Can I please have some of whatever the hell you are on?

  66. and also why Obama’s 200% tariff on Chinese steel did piss all squared to help the US Steel industry

    Sorry, what tariff did Obama slap on Chinese steel? I thought I heard someone say “200%”, but I must be mistaken.

    The media would have gone mental if he’d done that, right?

  67. Phantom, on March 2nd, 2018 at 3:49 PM Said:
    Pat just worships his hero and believes anything that he says. Patty is the same type of MAGA-head.

    The comment of a weak mind unable to formulate a good argument.

    I agree with a lot the man is doing so in Phantoms mind that makes me a worshipper….

    Yet god forbid you say he worshipped Obama even though he never found anything he did wrong, and if anything went wrong even after 8 years it was Ws fault.

  68. I voted against Obama, twice.

    But he wasn’t a complete idiot and undignified scatter-brained buffoon as we have now.

  69. New York billionaire Carl Icahn, a longtime ally of President Trump who briefly served in the administration, sold $31 million in stock in a company that depends on steel just weeks before the president announced steep tariffs on imported steel, a new report said Friday.

    In a filing submitted to the Securities and Exchange Commission on Feb. 22, Icahn revealed that he had dumped nearly a million shares of Manitowoc Company Inc., according to ThinkProgress, a left-leaning public policy Web site.

    The company was described as a top global manufacturer of cranes and other heavy equipment that relied heavily on steel for its products.


    Did anyone really believe that this crook would drain any swamp?

  70. When a country Taxes our products coming in at, say, 50%, and we Tax the same product coming into our country at ZERO, not fair or smart. We will soon be starting RECIPROCAL TAXES so that we will charge the same thing as they charge us. $800 Billion Trade Deficit-have no choice!

    Alright so make the argument of why the US should have to pay outrageous tariffs, but we can’t do the same in reverse?

    Part of the reason we lost so much manufacturing was due to those tariffs placed on us.

    Yet oh god forbid we start playing hardball back the American citizen is going to suffer… no you have this all wrong.

  71. If they can prove Icahn did that with foreknowledge I believe it’s called insider trading and is a Crime…..

  72. Phantom, on March 2nd, 2018 at 6:26 PM Said:
    I voted against Obama, twice.

    But he wasn’t a complete idiot and undignified scatter-brained buffoon as we have now.

    Barrack Obama was the biggest disgrace to ever serve. His administration is going to be remembered as the worst in American history.

    He used the IRS, FBI, NSA, EPA, DOJ and FISA against American citizens for Political gain.

    I’ll take a complete idiot and undignified scatter-brained buffoon over that anyday.

  73. What unfair tariffs does Canada or the EU levy on the US?

    Insider trading is very hard to prove. But Icahn is very tight with Trump, and Trump can’t keep his mouth shut on anything.

  74. He mentioned 50% tariffs on a product, and 0% tariffs on the same product in the US. He mentions this while imposing a 25% tariff on steel. He is certainly implying that the US faces 50% tariffs on Steel. Where do they do face this?

  75. Trump doesn’t know what he is doing.

    His flock knows much less, esp on this complex issue

  76. Sweden’s Electrolux, Europe’s largest home appliance maker, said on Friday it would delay a planned $250 million investment in Tennessee, after President Trump announced tariffs on imported aluminum and steel.


    “We are putting it on hold. We believe that tariffs could cause a pretty significant increase in the price of steel on the US market,” Electrolux spokesman Daniel Frykholm said.

    Electrolux buys all the steel it uses in its US products domestically.

    “So this is not the possibility of tariffs directly impacting our costs, but rather the impact it could have on the market and that it could damage the overall competitiveness of our operations in the US,” Frykholm said.


  77. TOKYO, March 2 (Reuters) – Toyota Motor Corp said on Friday U.S. tariffs on imported steel and aluminum would substantially raise costs and therefore prices of cars and trucks sold in America.

    “The (U.S.) Administration’s decision to impose substantial steel and aluminum tariffs will adversely impact automakers, the automotive supplier community and consumers,” the automaker told Reuters.

    Toyota added that more than 90 percent of the steel and aluminum purchased for cars built in the United States is sourced from the country.

    What does Toyota know about cars?


  78. If you are going to take him literally he’s going to aggravate you even more.

    Whatever a nation pealizes us that’s what they will be penalized in return…. that is supposed to be the plan.

    Now we shall see what actually gets written in the trade deals.

  79. The unilateral tariffs are not trade deals

    This inept move will make renegotiation of deals harder, not easier.

    The president is used to swindling and pushing around those with much less power.

    But the US does not hold all the cards in this situation, not even close.

  80. This is a ridiculas argument… it’s the exact same argument as taxes….

    The US makes Trillions so it should Pay More in tariffs

    A billionaire makes more so he should Pay More in taxes

    Both trains of thought are stupid and punitive.

    Flat Rates across the board are both fair and good business. Just because our GDP is so high is no reason for us to pay more in tarrifs and a person who earns more should not pay a Higher percentage of Taxes.

    You people endorse COMMUNIST DOCTRINE and thinking.

    It’s time to put policies that punish us for our wealth aside and each nation must compete fairly.

  81. and it will make negotiating trade deals better… not worse.

    Why should it be okay to screw us Phantom.

  82. We do hold all the cards….. our economy can take the fluctuations. Most others can’t.

  83. How does Canada or the EU screw the US in matters of trade?

    Be as specific as you like.

  84. No Phantom you be specific about how they don’t….

    My argument is simple what tariff do they place on our goods?

    Are you saying the EU and Canada place no more tax/tariffs on our goods than we do on theirs?

  85. You have no idea how they’re being unfair, yet you say that they’re screwing us and that the tariffs are good.


  86. Daphne, Phantom, Peter, jude (and other communists)


    Yawn. I’m not a communist and I’m both anti-EU and pro-Leave.

    But of course you knew that.

  87. Phantom no you debate like a jackass…. anything anyone says that you disagree with your Trump Derangement Syndrome kicks in MAGA….All Hail Trump… it makes you look like a total idiot.

    If you think it’s fair that the US should pay a higher tax rate on goods exchanged between to countries make your argument as to why….

    Each time you say MAGA or tie me in anyway as to just being a trump drone I will respond in kind with your label….. ASSHOLE ASSHOLE ASSHOLE.

    Now you can make your case as to why the US should pay more or just be an ASSHOLE.

  88. Nice to see you flip out, but you still haven’t given any detail on why you think that the evil Canada or evil ” EUSSR ” are playing unfair as respects trade with the USA.

    You give no detail because you know no detail, and you know no detail because you haven’t studied the issue at all.

    Off with you now.

    More reading, before you start with the writing.


  89. From the Wall Street Journal:

    “Donald Trump made the biggest policy blunder of his Presidency Thursday by announcing that next week he’ll impose tariffs of 25% on imported steel and 10% on aluminum. This tax increase will punish American workers, invite retaliation that will harm U.S. exports, divide his political coalition at home, anger allies abroad, and undermine his tax and regulatory reforms. The Dow Jones Industrial Average fell 1.7% on the news, as investors absorbed the self-inflicted folly.”

  90. Things were going swimmingly well on Wall Street before the announcement.

  91. Yes Charles. Trump has been the most pro-Wall Street president ever. Until he started a trade war.

  92. i believe everything should be shared apart from my wife’s fatty ass, that’s just fer me

  93. I didn’t know about the Electrolux and Toyota statements. And where are their factories? In the heart of Trump voting areas. Yet those people still cannot understand they were taken in by a conman. Maybe Trump should have the next one of his rallies in Tennessee and tell the people why an Electrolux plant would not be good for them.

  94. Toyota trucks are built in the Dallas-fort Worth area of Texas. The area as well is the host to the Toyota National HQ which is moving from California.

  95. Just a wee bit of confusion…. how is it OK for the EU imposes a 78% tariff on Chinese Steel but it’s horrendous if the US imposes 25% ?

  96. Just a wee bit of confusion…. how is it OK for the EU imposes a 78% tariff on Chinese Steel but it’s horrendous if the US imposes 25% ?

    Because the Brussels empire have six Presidents, (yes, SIX) – and America only has the one.


  97. Well Pat since logic seems to have a hard time penetrating, the Europeans but a targeted tariff against a single entity in an attempt to stop dumping. Trump seemingly wants to impose a 25% tariff against every body and that will actually hurt the american economy most of all

    It won’t make steel more expensive in the rest of the world just in the US so your manufactured goods just became more expensive. American cars are not better than foreign cars, american heavy equipment is no longer better than foreign heavy equipment and people will not pay a premium to get it

  98. One area where Trump has disappointed is his failure to pursue Hillary who is a criminal waiting indictment. Perhaps the murder of Seth Rich is what will get her in the dock?


    The facts that we know of in the murder of the DNC staffer, Seth Rich, was that he was gunned down blocks from his home on July 10, 2016. Washington Metro police detectives claim that Mr. Rich was a robbery victim, which is strange since after being shot twice in the back, he was still wearing a $2,000 gold necklace and watch. He still had his wallet, key and phone. Clearly, he was not a victim of robbery.

    Another aspect that needs to be uncovered is the FBI’s “denial” that its cyber experts who share space with the D.C. Metro police department at Cleveland Avenue in the District, assisted in accessing data on Mr. Rich’s laptop. Not likely. Data on the laptop revealed that Mr. Rich downloaded thousands of DNC emails and was in touch with Wikileaks. The file with evidence of what was on Mr. Rich’s laptop sits with the FBI in a co-shared space with the D.C. police department. According to Ed Butowsky, an acquaintance of the family, in his discussions with Joel and Mary Rich, they confirmed that their son transmitted the DNC emails to Wikileaks.

    The FBI opened an investigation into the theft of the DNC emails in July 2016. However, the FBI has not inspected the DNC server because the DNC won’t give permission. Is the FBI an extension of the DNC? That’s why we have subpoenas. Instead, the FBI relied on an assessment by a cyber security firm, Crowd Strike, hired by the Hillary Clinton campaign and DNC’s law firm Perkins Coie as proof that Russia was the hacker. Incompetence is an understatement. Corruption at the highest levels of the DOJ/FBI is clear.

    The Trump administration must take charge and get a competent attorney general to pursue these crimes.

    • James A. Lyons, Jr., a retired U.S. Navy admiral, was commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet and senior U.S. military representative to the United Nations.

    Noteworthy is……..

    You have brought up a glaring omission in Mr. Lyon’s analysis. I wonder if that was intentional on his part or he like many others do not know that Seth Rich was not killed on the street. He was taken alive to the hospital. His wounds were not life threatening, so he wasn’t going into surgery until the day shift got there, according to an ER doc who put his/her life on the line letting people know that fact.

    and this was also mentioned and I’ve just confirmed that it is real……


    On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 6:12 PM, John Podesta wrote: > Agree. Happy to talk to the David’s. Call me crazy, but I think if we can > survive the next month, it will be possible, maybe even straightforward to > get our arms around this once there is an actual campaign. I’m definitely > for making an example of a suspected leaker whether or not we have any real > basis for it.

  99. Trump seemingly wants to impose a 25% tariff against every body and that will actually hurt the american economy most of all

    It won’t make steel more expensive in the rest of the world just in the US so your manufactured goods just became more expensive. American cars are not better than foreign cars, american heavy equipment is no longer better than foreign heavy equipment and people will not pay a premium to get it

    It won’t do any of that….. you guys don’t get this tactic of his yet.

    Trump just threw a grenade into the room, but it was a flashbang…. not a deadly grenade it’s one meant to stun and shock….. it’s had the effect don’t you agree?

    The US is in the beginning processes of rewriting trade deals with every country in the world. For decades we have been willingly raped in order to spread capitalism and fight communism.

    Capitalism WON and we are not the largest economy in the world with the largess to allow ourselves to be the tool for every other nation to prop up their finances on.

    The world dynamics financially are not what they were 60yrs ago which is what our negotiating WERE based on.

    Trump’s Tariff Grenade tells all those negotiating teams from the rest of the world what kind of environment they are walking into. This Tariff announcement served the purpose it was designed for. It shocked the shit out of every country we trade with, got World Wide coverage, and changed the negotiating dynamics before they truly begin.

  100. I believe you could possibly be right there Patrick.

    President Trump could have just played a blinder.

    And as a bonus, President Trump has just riled up the supreme leaders of the Brussels empire, so what’s not to like.

  101. The US is in the beginning processes of rewriting trade deals with every country in the world.

    Indeed it is Patrick. Which makes the cliff-edge Brexiters hereabouts look even more foolish, because they seem to believe that the UK can crash out of the EU on WTO terms and then get a decent trade deal with Trump’s USA. The reason that Trump has expressed enthusiasm for this is that the UK runs a trade surplus with the USA and Trumpo is keen to reverse that. But even if he wasn’t such an unapologetic protectionist, just think about how much bargaining power the UK would have in April 2019 after WTO tariffs have been erected between it and its largest trade partner (40% of exports).

  102. The stink surrounding Jared Kushner gets stronger by the week. Nothing to see here, please move along:

    “Jared Kushner had a very bad week. So bad in fact, it was hard to keep track of how many bad stories there were. The most publicized event, the White House senior adviser and presidential son-in-law losing his security clearance, was the least surprising. The more shocking—and potentially important—revelations are two stories about massive loans he’s sought and their links to Qatar and a third story about how special counsel Robert Mueller is now investigating those links. While no crimes have been proven, the stories of Kushner’s loans line up remarkably well with one of the Steele dossier’s core allegations of Russian bribery. According to a report by NBC News on Friday, these dealings are also now a key line of inquiry for Mueller’s probe into Russia’s interference in our presidential election.

    Kushner is currently facing potentially massive ramifications for a disastrous $1.8 billion real estate deal he struck a decade ago. The slew of new stories suggest that he may have orchestrated a foreign policy crisis to pressure Qatar to bail him out. Months later, a firm linked to Qatar gave him a staggeringly large loan. All of these events suggest how Russia might have delivered a possible quid—a potential payment from a huge oil sale through back channels—in return for a Trump administration quo—a reported promise of reduced sanctions. ”


  103. Selecting an empty suit like Jared Kushner for a senior position is further proof that Trump is grossly unqualified for the office that he holds

    Kushner couldn’t be any more unimpressive

  104. He does not have the slightest idea what he is doing

    I still haven’t heard the Trump Cult here tell me what Canada or the European Union are doing wrong in terms with the trade with the US

  105. Selecting an empty suit like Jared Kushner for a senior position is further proof that Trump is grossly unqualified for the office that he holds


    If only Kushner was just an empty suit. It appears that he has loads of baggage connected to his property empire, just like you know who. With all property empires, it pays to see who the lenders are and what their motives for lending might be.

  106. But Trump put him in charge of some incredibly massive issues, such as a ) negotiating Middle East peace and b) Addressing the nations opioid crisis

    Kushner is not remotely qualified To address either issue, or any of the other matters that were given to him

    I think that we all know that Trump is a thief, and it’s pretty easy to determine that Kushner is a thief, And that his father was a thief as well. I could almost accept Him continuing to rob and steal and insider- deal, since that’s what all Kushners and Trumps do, but why in the name of God give him such important responsibilities? That’s the real scandal

  107. Yes Phantom, Trump has to be the least qualified POTUS since Warren Harding, in terms of personal character and fitness for office. The man is a narcissist, a sociopath and a pathological liar. And then there are the women issues.

    And his cheer-leaders hereabouts know all this, but still they cheer.

  108. America imposes a 2.5% tariff on vehicles from Europe.

    Brussels imposes a 25% tariff on vehicles from America.

    Go figure.

  109. But then again..

    Have you seen the shear size of Junckers drinks cabinet?.

    Not to mention the seriously deep troughs at the palaces of Brussels.

  110. harri

    Where did you get those numbers from. They look fishy.

    I’ve asked the usual suspects for justification on the anti Canada / anti EU tariffs for a few days now, with no real response.

  111. CNN says that the EU assesses a 10% tariff on US cars, not 25%

    That is a massive difference.

  112. Very good.

    The US is no innocent victim in this game, we have unfair tariffs on sugar and other things that Trump won’t be talking about

  113. Big Oil sung the Trump administration’s praises when the U.S. president slashed corporate taxes at the end of last year. Now, with trade wars looming, senior oil executives aren’t quite so supportive.

    Steel tariffs and a reduction in free trade are a major risk to oil and gas demand and economic growth, the chief executive officers of Exxon Mobil Corp. and Chevron Corp. said at the World Gas Conference in Washington D.C. Tuesday. Their comments followed by a day remarks from Total SA CEO Patrick Pouyanne who worried the trade stance could curtail U.S. natural gas exports.

    “The risk of trade skirmishes or trade wars starts to weigh on people’s perceptions of economic growth in the future,” Chevron CEO Mike Wirth said in a panel discussion with Exxon chief Darren Woods. “From a demand standpoint I think that’s a risk.”


    Remember a few days ago when I said that business didn’t like what Trump’s shenanigans? And some doubted me?

    You haven’t seen anything yet. Trump knows nothing about the complexities of international trade, and, except for isolated examples, business absolutely hates all of this.

  114. The Mid-Continent Nail Corporation in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, said this week that it had recently laid off 60 of its 500 workers because of the hefty 25 percent tariff that the administration has slapped on steel imports from Mexico and Canada.

    Mid-Continent, described as the largest nail manufacturer in the United States, had been importing Mexican steel to turn into nails state-side. The company, which was started in 1987 by two local brothers, said sales plummeted by 50 percent in just two weeks after it raised prices to cope with the elevated steel costs.

    Mid-Continent spokesman James Glassman told CNN that the company is now “on the brink of extinction” unless the Commerce Department grants its request for a tariff exclusion.

    Before long, expect significant opposition to the tariffs from Trump’s blue collar base, and from some of their unions. The tariffs help some workers, and are really harmful to many more. They’ll be particularly harmful to export manufacturers who use a lot of steel ( Harley-Davidson, Toyota, other US and foreign label automakers who have big export operations from their USA factories. )


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