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Then throw away your iPhone….

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60 thoughts on “WANT TO BOYCOTT ISRAEL?

  1. You make me want to buy an Iphone to go along with my Ipad and Macbook now.

    Apple is a money machine whose stock has been doing well.( just went over $100 today ) It must be a conspiracy.

  2. Some of the Boycotts’R’Us crowd in Europe have engaged in vandalism of stores, which should be illegal.

    I don’t think that this will go over too well in an Apple Store, where the high value product is locked up or is otherwise protected.

    If there are ” secondary boycotts ” those would be illegal in the US but in Europe there seems to be no law at all, so maybe anything goes there.

  3. Sounds great. The IPhone is a brutal product, for people who can’t use real technology. I wouldn’t take one off your hands if you gave it to me for free.

  4. “If you call for an illegal boycott of Israel..”

    I don’t think anyone has called for an illegal boycott of Israel, so these guys have nothing to worry about.

    BTW, Phantom, did you see Google stock – 1500 pc over the past 10 years Not bad, eh?
    Have you any tips BTW?

    You never know who to believe with these things. Soros said a year or two ago that the safest bet is agricultural products, and since then harvest yields have rocketed and prices have plummeted.

  5. Google was a perfect concept at the right time, perfectly executed. I remember that people thought that stock was expensive when they did the IPO. Now look at it.

    I’m not qualified to give much advice – the market may be near a peak but who knows – I bought some AAPL stock in May 2013 and I wish I’d bought twice as much. Up 60% while paying a decent dividend. I won’t sell it, it is a long term hold.

    You want to find an investment opportunity where there can be nice capital appreciation possibility, and if possible without that much price competition. Apple fits that bill, most companies do not.

  6. In the US some types of boycott are illegal

    Including corporate boycotts of Israel- and ” secondary boycotts ” by unions

    http://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/enforcement/oac

    Conduct that may be penalized under the TRA and/or prohibited under the EAR includes:

    Agreements to refuse or actual refusal to do business with or in Israel or with blacklisted companies.
    Agreements to discriminate or actual discrimination against other persons based on race, religion, sex, national origin or nationality.
    Agreements to furnish or actual furnishing of information about business relationships with or in Israel or with blacklisted companies.
    Agreements to furnish or actual furnishing of information about the race, religion, sex, or national origin of another person.
    Implementing letters of credit containing prohibited boycott terms or conditions.

    The TRA does not “prohibit” conduct, but denies tax benefits (“penalizes”) for certain types of boycott-related agreements.

  7. //Agreements to refuse or actual refusal to do business with or in Israel//

    Don’t tell me the law specifies Israel as a country that must be exempt from boycotts.

    Are boycotts of Iran illegal too?

  8. The main impact of the anti boycott law AFAIK is to make it illegal for a business to refuse an order for goods from an Israeli potential customer.

    Imdividual consumers and investors can boycott alll day long.

    But the wording of the law seems to make abuse possible. It looks as though a chain of international stores that chose not to have a location in Tel Aviv could be charged by someone with ” redusing to do business there ”

    I don’t see that happening but the words tell me that the law could be abused in bad hands.

  9. Those who support the US anti Israel boycott law would see it as something similar to laws that outlaw discrimination by businesses on the basis of race or national origin.

    But of course ” discriminating ” against bad countries like Iran is quite encouraged.

  10. Pat Buchanan had a good quip that the US Congress was Israeli Occupied Territory. He later walked off of the sanity reservation but he had a good point there.

  11. That’s true.

    Congress is bought and paid for by a series of one issue lobby groups such as AIPAC
    http://www.aipac.org/

    and the NRA

    and the Farm Lobby.

    Everyone’s for sale and corruption is legal, so step right up and make your bid.

  12. If there are ” secondary boycotts ” those would be illegal in the US but in Europe there seems to be no law at all, so maybe anything goes there

    Primary or secondary boycotts, absolutely bizarre. Are you telling me that in America, the land of the free, the government dictates who the individual does or doesn’t do business transactions with?

  13. You can boycott – but you can’t legally boycott someone who isn’t properly involved in the dispute in the first place.

    The concept of secondary boycott is used in the context of labor disputes. If secondary boycotts were permitted, then unions basically have 100% of the power. No one should have 100% of the power.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/secondary_boycott

    And if it’s illegal for a business to boycott ( not sell to ) members of a racial group, then why should it be legal for it to boycott ( not sell to ) a nation or nationality? It is the exact same principle when you look at it.

  14. //it’s illegal for a business to boycott ( not sell to ) members of a racial group, then why should it be legal for it to boycott ( not sell to ) a nation or nationality? It is the exact same principle when you look at it.//

    One difference is that all individuals have the same legal status and are entitled by law to enter into any transaction on offer within that market. Countries, on the other hand, are each legally separate markets, subject to different laws, e.g. import/export regulations.
    But a more fundamental difference is that “races” are not units and don’t act as one, whereas countries are. Thus, a business is entitled to refuse to serve a particular individual based on his conduct, and similarly should be able to refuse to sell to a particular country.
    But you make a good point; the differences are not that great. I’d imagine anyone would be drowned in litigation is he decided not to sell to, for example, sub-saharan Africa for whatever reason.

    Whatever, a law that specifically sanctions a refusal to do business with a particular country, inevitably Israel, is so absurd it could come out of Allan’s bottomless box of conspiracies.

  15. And if it’s illegal for a business to boycott ( not sell to ) members of a racial group, then why should it be legal for it to boycott ( not sell to ) a nation or nationality? It is the exact same principle when you look at it

    Except that it’s used all the time by nations against other nations. t’s called economic sanctions.

  16. That is correct, and the US / EU and even the phony baloney UN is in on it.

    But back to the point.

    If its illegal for Joe the Grocer to sell a five pound bag of potatoes to an Arab customer, should it be legal for a British potato exporter to refuse to sell a container load of potatoes to a customer in Israel?

    The principle is identical.

  17. BTW I oppose most sanctions, including the US embargo against Cuba.

    I think they do more harm than good.

  18. The principle is identical

    I disagree Phantom. One refusal to do business based on racial / ethnic grounds does not hold the same weight of refusing to do business on disagreement of government or national policy.

    IMO it would be morally wrong for someone to refuse to do business with a Korean based on ethnicity but perfectly acceptable to boycott North Korea or refusing to do business with Cubans because you agree with the US embargo on Cuba.

  19. But if you’re selling to a chain of supermarkets in Tel Aviv you are not dealing with the Israeli government.

  20. Even though in principle the Cuban situation is not the same as their supermarkets ( and their empty shelves ) are owned by the government, not by individuals or corporations.

  21. But it is the same principle used?

    Except that it’s used all the time by nations against other nations. t’s called economic sanctions.

  22. I keep saying this – I oppose most of those economic sanctions.

    As a general principle, free people should boycott boycotts. Or at least not comply with any heavy handed ones, where people try to compel others to boycott just because a few shoplifters in Belfast don’t like Israel, or whatever.

  23. Even though in principle the Cuban situation is not the same as their supermarkets ( and their empty shelves ) are owned by the government

    I’m not sure if that’s strictly the cas but okay, there are private tourist enterprises in Cuba, should they be boycotted?

  24. Shouldn’t you also, to be consistent, boycott all those vast and numerous scientific and medical breakthroughs and augments, that Israel has given the world.

  25. //But if you’re selling to a chain of supermarkets in Tel Aviv//

    Obviously refusing to sell to a particular chain or a customer, but not to others, in some country is wrong.
    But by refusing to do business with some partcular country, i.e. with all institutions, business and individuals in that country, you are targeting the country for something you consider wrong, and with the hope that the people denied your supplies will apply pressure to get their country to change.

    Refusing to sell to all members of a certain “race” is different. Such a group is not a legal entity, has no central authority and therefore cannot be sanctioned as a unit.

    I explained the legal difference above.

    I’m against all boycotts as long as you are aware that there are people in the country in question critical of their government for the same reasons as you are. That’s definitely the case in Israel, so no boycotts of Israel for me.

    There is, however, a difference between Israel and the West Bank. The WB is illegally occupied according to international law and the settlements are in breach of the UN Charter, which all our countries signed. People living in the settlements are also each making themselves an instrument of that occupation and dispossession, a deliberate policy to create an artificial ethnic presence in order to create a territorial claim.
    In the EU, products must be specially labelled if they come from WB settlements. I support that policy.

  26. As a general principle, free people should boycott boycotts. Or at least not comply with any heavy handed ones

    As a general principle free people should do whatever their conscience dictates no?

    What I find bizarre is that the same country that makes it illegal to do business with Cuba also make it illegal not to do business with Israel.

  27. As a general principle free people should do whatever their conscience dictates no?

    I’m generally all for that, but the anti Israel protesters are seeking to force supermarkets into going against their own conscience, seeking to compel them into falling into line with the shoplifting protesters. Such actions, as well as the proclamations of Israel free zones in British cities, also seek to intimidate others, not to convince them.

    The Cuban regime stole ( nationalized ) US assets. There is more reason for the US embargo than there is for any other type of boycott.

  28. I’m generally all for that, but the anti Israel protesters are seeking to force supermarkets into going against their own conscience, seeking to compel them into falling into line with the shoplifting protesters

    Well Phantom I don’t think they are. I think it’s all about making a political point and they’re not ‘shoplifiting’ anything. Shoplifiting is intentionally stealing from a shop.

    Having said that I don’t agree with their form of protest. I think a dignified picket at a supermarket entrance giving out information as to why the picket is taking place is much more effective.

    The Cuban regime stole ( nationalized ) US assets. There is more reason for the US embargo than there is for any other type of boycott

    Jesus Phantom, bearig in mind the comparisons in this conversation, you’re really going to bring theft of other nation’s / people’s assets into it?

  29. If you mention the Cuba embargo, I will mention a major reason for that embargo.

    A bad government stole things. What should the consequences have been?

  30. A bad government stole things. What should the consequences have been?

    It’s not for me to say what the consequences should have been but should the consequences of land theft and dispossession of people twelve years earlier not been similar?

  31. Well since none of the trendies and hipsters who boycott Israel are the type of people who want to boycott Cuba, then if they’re to be consistent they should boycott both or not boycott both equally.

    There were an awful lot of dispossessed Cubans, which may be news to some.

  32. Well since none of the trendies and hipsters who boycott Israel are the type of people who want to boycott Cuba, then if they’re to be consistent they should boycott both or not boycott both equally

    Did we not establish that free people are free to act on their own conscience? I thought that the debate had shifted to the inconsistencies of government boycotts/ embargos?

    There were an awful lot of dispossessed Cubans, which may be news to some

    I don’t think anyone would argue against that although I wonder how many left of their own accord for activities under the Batista regime rather than being forcibly dispossessed?

    However, regardless of the comparison of dispossession, shouldn’t the reaction have been similar in both respects?

  33. Castro dispossesed a lot of people for the ” crime ” of owning an apartment building, etc.

    And a good number of those who got a bullet or who were dispossessed were those who fought with him and who believed him when he claimed to be a democrat who would have elections.

  34. You cannot be for democracy and human rights and rule of law and also be an admirer of the Castro junta.

  35. //There were an awful lot of dispossessed Cubans//

    Were they dispossed simply because of who they were, of the wrong ethnic background or religion, or spoke the wrong language?

  36. If you steal my house, I won’t particularly care what the stated reason is.

    It’s cool to steal property if it is not do to ethnicity?

    Well all righty then, open those prison doors wide.

    And by the way, I’d like the keys to the Cunningham Estate if you would.

  37. //If you steal my house, I won’t particularly care what the stated reason is.//

    For someone who’s consistently sniffing around these parts for some scent of anti-semitism, it’s strange that you now suddently don’t think attacks on people because of their religion isn’t particularly bad after all.

  38. To say nothing about your sudden anger at people stealing other’s property for whatever reason.

  39. I am not angry. There are others here who do ” angry ” much better than I do.

    Who here have I accused of anti semitism? When?

    I state the obvious, though that Europe, as aided by your wonderful new imports, has become a bastion of anti semitism, and that its a subtext to a lot of the Israel protests.

  40. As I said before Phantom;

    However, regardless of the comparison of dispossession, shouldn’t the reaction have been similar in both respects?

  41. //Who here have I accused of anti semitism?//

    Oh, come now – you regularly make dark references to “covert anti-semitism” here of the kind Poosh just made.

    // though that Europe, as aided by your wonderful new imports, has become a bastion of anti semitism, and that its a subtext to a lot of the Israel protests.//

    It’s true that Europe slavishly follows US policy on Israel/Palestine and – for different reasons – doesn’t have the courage to take the only measures that can lead to peace, and maybe that’s what you mean by calling the continent “a bastion of anti-semitism”.
    But it’s also true – as you say – that there is a rise in anti-semitism in Europe. I’d also say it comes mainly from Arabs and Muslims living here, and that’s probably going to increase as their relative numbers grow.

    I also think there is a common American/Israeli misconception that the mood in Europe against Israel’s dealings with its Arab neighbours is a left wing/university/coffee house (insert favourite prejudice) thing.

    In fact, the situation in Europe (as common sense should tell anyone) is complex in each country and different from country to country. In some cases even, countries with strong anti-semitism would also be strong in supporting Israel – the two are by no means mutually exclusive.
    Also: there were large anti-Israel and pro-Israel demonstrations in Berlin over the past month. One notable thing was the number of left-wing university types supporting Israel. In one case even a prominent member of the Green Party, which generally has left-wing policies by German standards, was injured when he was attacked while holding an Israeli flag.

    Phantom, it’s maybe time you revised some of your prejudices.

  42. Yes it should.

    I have never said that the Palestinians do not have a case. They most certainly do have a case.

    It is hard to get heard when the larger groups on this site are waving ” Israel always right ” or ” Israel always wrong ” pom poms with minds closed shut 25 years ago.

  43. There is covert ( or overt ) anti semitism that runs all through the anti Israel movement. Should we go through some of the incidents in western Europe? Or just overlook them?

  44. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the Israel-Palestine situation I don’t like the idea that the quality of what they make has any bearing on the issue.

    The case for or against boycotting Israel is the same as it would be if their principle export was turnips rather than technology.

  45. //There is covert ( or overt ) anti semitism that runs all through the anti Israel movement.//

    There are definitely some anti-semites in the pro-Palestinian movemnet, there’s no doubt about that.
    But if that’s all you’re saying here, you’re saying very little, as there are probably some anti-semites in every movement, in every country and following every ideology (except Zionism perhaps 🙂

  46. Very interesting story, Petr. (also that “The Ultra poster is anti-Castro” !!)

    Israel will no doubt get into that game more seriously now, but probably still won’t get very far. It’s killing urges immediately wipe away any gains it may make in the propaganda war.

  47. I hope you’re right Noel. It would seem that Israel is increasingly becoming a pariah state.

  48. Israel either better strike a deal with the Palestinians now or suffer a worse deal in the future. The demographics are against it. World opinion is increasingly aware of the injustice suffered by the Palestinians, no matter what any “Hasbara” can do; the tide is going to turn in Europe and in the US sooner than people think. The media never before showed the human face of suffering in Gaza as much as in this most recent conflict.

  49. Petr,

    Will you now disclose a few of your pseudonyms?

    I have heard of folk with a split personality, and can appreciate the opportunity that social networking offers to sufferers. I have, on occasion wondered if we don’t have a few on ATW.

  50. There will never be normalized relations with Cuba until the Castro brothers are dead.

  51. Ernest — I’ve heard that the elderly bewildered have wild imaginations. You can confirm same?

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