255 2 mins 9 yrs

You look at my country and you see nothing but the darkness. You forget who we really are.  We maybe the wretched refuse, our forefathers were either thrown out or escaped from every other nation in the world. We’re proud of that.

You mock us and at times like now with the fools we have in office we deserve to be mocked.

Yet then there is me and my kin. Most of you revile me, so be it. I don’t care if you like me, or the people that I represent. However those people and I.  We are America, we were raised with values that are so alien to you that you laugh due to your misunderstanding.  A simple core belief:  I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.

So mock us, but remember we are the ones that have been setting the world right for over 200 years, and we may be out of sorts at the moment, but we are still the most dangerous breed to set foot on the planet. Love us or hate us, we don’t care. Justice will be served.

Never however underestimate us. These two songs show what shaped me and mine, and we number more than you can imagine. If you don’t respect us, you should really worry about us.  Yeeehhhaaawww

 

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255 thoughts on “We won’t go Silently here at home, let alone amongst you….

  1. We maybe the wretched refuse, our forefathers were either thrown out or escaped from every other nation in the world.

    You’re Australian!?

  2. If you don’t respect us, you should really worry about us.

    We don’t and we do.

    And kateyo complained about my post!?

  3. I didn’t say we were convicts Seimi. The US was founded by those persecuted by the crown. Not convicted and sent to rot.

    Sure some came to form an extension of the empire, but most came to be free of the empire. To form a new world where each man was able to forge his own destiny. Not granted it by patents of nobility.

    EP of course you would call it twaddle. You have no concept of what the US is, was, and will always remain.

    We managed in 200 yrs what none of you could even conceive in 2000.

  4. Yes, we produced Sarah Palin and Anthony Weiner.

    Let’s see you try’n top that you hockey player Comminist

  5. This post is pure politics. You see how little you are able to grasp?

    You listen to people like Mahons and Phantom and the thing in Texas. They are nothing.

    There is an underlying faith in the majority of my country that I represent more than they ever will. Do you really believe the bulk of Americans will allow Washington to dictate how we will live our lives?

    To take God and our Guns from us? To tell us we must let grandma die because it’s not in the Federal budget?

    You have so little understanding of us cousin. We are not like you, nor any others.

    You will witness over the next 3 years the collapse of the Federal Governments Power, and it will not equal chaos. It will equal freedom exerted by the States, by the People. We won’t be told what we can and can not do.

    The politicians of both parties are starting to realize that they have lost control. It won’t be violent, but it won’t be pretty.

    When 40 million people are out of work, cities are declaring bankruptcy, and the answers that are being offered are distractions like a so called national outrage over a man shooting a thug in self defense. You are delusional if you think the majority is buying this crap.

    Make all the jokes and insults you want. However open your eyes and watch as the tide rises.

    Barack Obama was the best thing that could have happened for this nation. The mask of betrayal has been shown by him. We as a people believe in ourselves. Not in government promises.

    The next 3 years are going to be vile, but it takes pain to right the train of destiny. Watch and learn.

    A great man once said the most frightening words an American can hear is we’re from the government and we’re here to help.

  6. Your predictions tend to come always come true, only in reverse.

    There’s talent there.

  7. You listen to people like Mahons and Phantom and the thing in Texas.

    I was going to treat your post seriously, until you posted this. 3 sentences in, and your nastiness came through. You have no idea how to debate a subject, do you? Mr. ‘I don’t attack until I’m attacked’ went straight for ‘the thing in Texas.’ Low. Very low. If anyone here had referred to Monica as ‘the thing in Philly’, how would you feel?

    I know assholes have made despicable comments here before about you and your wife, but does that justify you calling someone ‘the thing’?

    I understand your frustration about the current administration. They weren’t the guys you voted for. I get that. But do you honestly believe your guys would be any better than these guys??

    If so, then please articulate how, without resorting to nasty comments.

    I’m off to bed now. Oíche mhaith.

  8. Troll having another one of his periodic funny turns. Nothing new to see here. Move along now everyone !

  9. ‘We won’t go Silently here at home, let alone amongst you….’

    This sums up American tourists perfectly…

  10. Troll,

    “You listen to people like Mahons and Phantom ‘and the thing in Texas’. They are nothing.” – but yet so much better than yourself!

    You are nothing but a disgusting excuse for a human being! You have no respect for anyone, and yet you beg for respect for yourself.

    You want respect? – you had better learn how to earn it! probably an impossible task in your case, – but at least give it a try!

    p.s. Please no more repeats of that faux CV you post as justification. You have amply proved it to be little more than wishful thinking…

  11. Cue Independence Day and one of the most stirring movie speeches ever.
    (Knocks Humphrey Bogart’s “Casablanca” mumble into a cocked hat..

    America is a great country.
    I like some of them.
    It was the leader and protector of the free world.
    The western world owes its freedom and security to those many decent Yanks who came over and fought alongside us. And FDR regardless of his personal opinions or preferences was a great President.

  12. Petr,
    But we will defend to the death his right to spout nonsense, right?

    After all, there must be Palestinian and Jewish equivalents to the Troll, surely?
    And anyway, I thought you were “too busy” to comment much?
    😉

  13. ” Troll when I look at you I see a fat loud mouthed barely literate moron who knows f@$k all about everything”

    Unfair, unfair!

  14. Agit

    Troll knows nothing about eastern PA, much less the USA, much less the world.

    Doesn’t know his neighbors, doesn’t know the others here.

    He is sui generis, angry and afraid about a world that he has chosen to know nothing about,a goal he has succeeded at quite well.

  15. Phantom,
    the greatest film Bogart did was with Katharine Hepburn in African Queen. That’s where he showed his real acting ability.
    For me he was too weedy to really play the tough guy, but he was indisputably a great actor.
    Bill Pullman did a fine job of delivering that speech in Independence Day, even if the rest of it was hokum. Will Smith was over rated..

    Finally, the Troll.
    I continue to believe that the Troll is at heart a good man. He might say things that would contradict that, but I have yet to be convinced otherwise.

    When I was in the Merchant Marine I had a cabin mate named Roger, who was as thick as two short planks. He really was dim, but he wouldn’t hurt a fly and had a heart of gold. I was his friend and defender.
    I find it strange here on ATW how people who present as being defenders of this group’s rights and that group’s needs nevertheless have no problem getting stuck into
    being rude or disrespectful or downright nasty to a fellow American who loves his country and is prepared to do whatever he can for his wife and family.

    So I say look past all the bombast, the spelling mistakes and the off the wall statements, and realise that it really doesn’t cost much to treat the guy with dignity and humour and kindliness.

  16. If you were to read everything ever said here, and extract the ten most vicious and anti Christian comments made in this space, odds are that all ten would be from him.

    You are what your record says you are, and this is his record.

  17. Phantom,
    It just doesn’t bother me, because what really counts is what people do rather than what people say.
    On occasion I deliberately say stuff just to be provocative, or to puncture what I see as pomposity (which I loathe) or hypocrisy.

    Allan says some really awful stuff in a weird, swivel eyed way, whereas the Troll speaks from the heart, often clumsily sometimes outrageously but I have yet to be convinced, maliciously.
    That’s how I feel about it.

  18. When you say these things, what kind of heart do you have? What you say is very much part of what you do. Its his half formed thoughts

    Allan’s a cartoon Nazi symp / Truther, beyond redemption.

  19. A practitioner of militant ignorance. Who wonders why they lose elections, why others don’t think with him.

  20. ” Allan is disturbed and sinister; a creep. Troll is a buffoon.”

    Petr,
    You like to present yourself as an idealistic caring intellectual type.
    I think you are, but I would add “inclined to naivety” to that description!
    So riddle me this, my fine man.
    How can someone like yourself not see past the things that Troll says, to what he probably means?
    And even if he is petulant or quick to fly off the handle, when you look at his musical tastes does he really strike you as a nasty person?
    He doesn’t me.
    He’s volatile, not gud at spelin or granmar, but like anyone poke him hard enough and he’s going to respond..
    How does your condemnation of him tie in with your blanket support of Palestinians or the rest of the great “Oppressed”, bearing in mind that the great “Oppressed” will contain as many “Troll types” as it does “Petrkin types”?

  21. Allan says some really awful stuff in a weird, swivel eyed way,…

    Show me where anything which I have written has not been backed by reference material and which has been refuted by anybody here? Insults are not points of argument.

  22. Allan,
    You just do. There are as many websites out there supporting your weird views as there are websites supporting “lurve” between adults and children.
    Then there’s your apparent inability to laugh or joke about anything at all..
    If you could I think more people would warm to you, but you are so deadly/incessantly/remorselessly serious all the time, it’s like dealing with Dan Dare’s “The Mekon”

  23. Agit – I’m not interested in people ‘warming’ to me. This is a blog where opinions are put forward as points of debate, and opinions should be backed by source material duly referenced.

    Here’s an opinion: tens of thousands jews served in the Wehrmacht as authorised by Hitler’s own signature.

    Here’s why I have that opinion:
    http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

    “The revelation that Germans of Jewish blood, knowing the Nazi regime for what it was, served Hitler as uniformed members of his armed forces must come as a profound shock. It will surprise even professional historians of the Nazi years.” –John Keegan, author of The Face of Battle and The Second World War

    Without the reference, my opinion would have been unsupported and worth no more than any of Colm’s quips.

    So Agit – show me where I’m wrong, on any matter anywhere, and why.

  24. For Goodness sake Allan,
    how intellectually stupid can you get?

    You think that any man or woman faced with certain death or compliance with the enemy’s demands might not say,
    Hey! I wanna be one of YOUSE Guys, “Heil Hitler!”?

    You don’t think that some of the Jews who were pulling bodies out of gas chambers or shaving hair of corpses weren’t mentally destroyed by that? Even survivors of concentration camps felt guilty for surviving when their mother, father, brothers and sisters had been killed.
    You really really are a prat of the first order Jimmy.
    How can you possibly condemn the whole Jewish people because some of them elected to live whatever the cost?
    What! You think that Scots or English or anybody else would do better?
    Why do you think I keep telling you that the Jews are intrinsically no more superior to any other race of people?
    That their specialness comes from their Covenant relationship with God, not their innate mental, moral or physical superiority.
    It’s not for me or (especially) you to condemn Jews who fought for Germany in WW1 or WW2 . You have to ask YOURSELF if you had been a Jew in those evil days, what would YOU have done?

    You seriously are dopey Allan.

  25. This post is pure politics. You see how little you are able to grasp?

    Except of course that it’s not. No attempt at analysis, no attempt to even cursorily address political issues. All I see is a pseudo historical, bombastic, arrogant, superficial, infantile, pretentious ‘we’re great’ rant. My seventeen year old could have written a more lucidly informed piece.

    As to the habit of providing musical accompaniment to reinforce your ‘points’ I’m sure this one will be right up your street.

    *Warning, moderate bad language

  26. Agi, a question on a matter of curiosity in light of your link:

    Do you think a difference could have existed between the standard Wehrmacht soldier and the SS soldier? i.e.would it be possible for the Wehrmacht soldier to fight for Germany yet not be a member of the Nazi Party / in agreement with Nazi beliefs?

    E.g. Rommel was an extremely competent military commander who was immensely respected by his adverseries, but, (insofar as I know and am open to correction), didn’t espouse Nazi Party beliefs.

  27. Rommel did not mistreat POWs, including Jewish POWs.

    Which leads me to agree with your comment.

  28. Agit – when you put forward a link in support of a point then call your opponent “dopey”, remember to read your link.

    Your link has:

    Mischling status greatly restricted upward mobility in German society and in the army.

    followed by a picture of:

    Half –Jew Field Marshall Erhard Milch

    And of course your own little item:

    ….Jews who were ……shaving hair of corpses…..?

    Think Agit – why would the hair be shaven from corpses? The video linkage to David Cole’s demolition of the Auschwitz ‘death’, soap and lampshade camp explains why the hair was shaven from those who arrived – it was to counter the spread of lice (carriers of typhus) and was allied to the fumigation by Zyklon B of clothing.

    So Agit – why would hair be shaven from corpses which are then to be cremated?

  29. From Agit8ed’s link:

    “The Nuremberg Laws, as they became known, did not define a “Jew” as someone with particular religious beliefs. Instead, anyone who had three or four Jewish grandparents was defined as a Jew, regardless of whether that individual identified himself or herself as a Jew or belonged to the Jewish religious community.”

    Sounds eerily familiar, doesn’t it?

  30. “A simple core belief: I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.”

    Brilliant, his paean to Amurika and Amurikans is lit up by a quote from an Englishwoman about a Frenchman.

    It’s fitting really. The Bill of Rights and Constitution are simply the common law rights which the British colonists were asserting, and they’d never have prevailed without French help.

  31. What prompted Troll to write this post ? Does he think anyone (apart from agit8ed) is impressed by this bombastic and very childish nonsense ?

  32. Troll becomes disorientated easily.

    He was brought up to believe his country is called “America f*** yeah” and that everyone, everywhere loves it and wants to live there, and that we’d all be in Siberian salt mines speaking German if it wasn’t for America f*** yeah guaranteeing freedomnliberty.

    Then he comes onto a blog like this, sees people who don’t worship his country and he becomes confused.

  33. It’s weirdly passive aggressive- I AM AMERICA!!! and people on the Internet are mean about me ##sniffle##.

  34. You gotta give Troll some credit though. Even after the spectacular failure of his “I know the American people and they will sweep Obama out in a landslide no doubt about it” totally self-convinced voice of America tirades over many months prior to the election, he still unashamedly comes bouncing back with his “I am America not Mahons not Phantom not Daphne” spiel !

    He has chutzpah 🙂

  35. //What prompted Troll to write this post ? //

    He was probably just watching one of those war films that are his staple political diet, or maybe some John Wayne movie.

  36. “Do you think a difference could have existed between the standard Wehrmacht soldier and the SS soldier?
    E.g. Rommel was an extremely competent military commander who was immensely respected by his adverseries, but, (insofar as I know and am open to correction), didn’t espouse Nazi Party beliefs.”

    Of course, and if you had bothered to read my comments properly in the past, you would know that I have said that umpteen times before. The problem is as I have ALSO said before is, that faced with the threat of death, many decent people have (understandably) caved in to filthy regimes like the Nazis..

  37. Ross

    You mean the same way a little girl runs into the house and shouts to the adults “I’ve just done a poo in my pants and I don’t care ” 😉

  38. Allan,
    for your info..

    “The Nazis didn’t just kill the Jews; they made use of every inch of them. Women’s hair was shaved off and weaved into blankets for Nazi soldiers. Fat from Jews’ bodies was used to make soap. Gold teeth were pulled out to make gold bars for the Reichsbank. 384,000 pairs of men’s shoes were sent to Germany from Auschwitz. 646,000 men’s suits. 184,000 pairs of eyeglasses.[2]”

    The Holocaust: Systematic Sadism


    Just think Mein Fuerher,
    the circuitry in that German enkryption maschin you use for commenting might contain gold from some poor Jewish person..

  39. Agit8ed –

    “The Nazis didn’t just kill the Jews; they made use of every inch of them …”

    What are you complaining about? I thought you were into recycling and minimising waste.

    Anyway, you need to be very careful of stories like that. The old lampshades-made-from-skin story is a proven hoax. Alot of them came from Ilya Ehrenburg, a truly vicious man and a notorious Soviet propagandist.

  40. Of course, and if you had bothered to read my comments properly in the past, you would know that I have said that umpteen times before

    That’s me put in my place for not going through everything you write with a fine tooth comb and remembering every word then.

  41. what a pack of bullshit, from an ignorant group of fools.

    First off Phantom, I know more not only about Pennsylvania, but the entire country than you will ever understand. You spend your days flying around the world dealing with the rich and live in an area where a man that flashes his dick publicly actually has a chance at being Mayor and a man who was a regular patron of prostitutes will probably be comptroller.

    Add to that your irrational fear of firearms and your total misunderstanding of those who own them and carry them. The Federal Bureau of Investigation recorded more than 16.8 million background checks for gun purchases in 2012, yet you call them fringe. That’s legal buyers. Men and Women.

    The median household income in the US is $50,502. for a family of 4 that is not a lot of money. Yet in the past 5 years gas has gone up 200% the price of food 125% there have been more home foreclosures in the past 5 years than during the great depression. The job base has lost 9 Million jobs since Obama has become president. Even with his cheating on the unemployment numbers. If the same amount of jobs that existed when he took office still existed today Unemployment would be 11%.

    I’m glad you people have such a low opinion of me, because I have an even lower opinion of you.

    You view the United States from some made up world of your own and take the opinions of Liberals as gospel.

    You can do that, it is your choice. However the Average American Family is white, has two parents in the house that both work, and have two kids. They own at least one firearm. They go to church and all they want is a better life for their children than they had.

    68% of Americans don’t want socialized medicine, 73% want the mexican border sealed, yet less than 20% want those here already deported, but will never support Amnesty till that Border is sealed.

    69% believe our government both taxes and spends to much.

    I may be rude and blunt, but so is my average fellow citizen. Less than 14% belong to a Union. 80% of those only belong because they can’t work in their job without being forced to join.

    The majority of Americans don’t vote less than 30% and out of that 30% elections are decided by less than a 5% split. Yet you believe these groups represent the bulk of the nation.

    You can draw all the conclusions you want from your fantasy world view, but you neither know us or understand us.

    People like me are the Majority, and we are starting to get pissed. We are the group that both sides fear. We rarely act as one because we are individualists that prefer to be left alone.

    It is reaching a level of anger in my nation that will cause both parties to either shift or perish. When someone making barely enough to provide for his family busts his ass at a job while those that don’t demand and claim that it is their right to be carried on our backs it won’t be tolerated for long.

    So laugh and insult all you want, but as your nations crumble mine will shift and flourish. It is what we do.

  42. a special Note for Seimi, Ernest, Paul and any others.

    Go fu*ck yourselves. I get attacked if attack you personally yet you feel no restraint in personal attacks on me. So Fuc* You.

    Oh and I was actually being kind calling the vile creature in Texas a “thing” she is a fraud and a phoney. I was being kind.

    Now come on take the gloves off and lets really have at it. You got the balls?

  43. Kate if you have nothing to add why comment at all?

    ZZZZZZZZZZZ seems to be the extent of your ability to contribute to anything.

    Your so impressive, I stand in awe.

  44. Colm,
    I never said I was impressed. I was simply saying that I think troll’s okay

  45. Colm,
    I never said I was impressed. I was simply saying that I think troll’s okay

  46. Agit – amongst the soap, lampshades and hair for blankets lies, you forgot this beauty:

    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7829

    From The Daily Herald, 16th December 1942

    “On July 27 all the Jewish inhabitants of a town near Kiev were ordered to the stadium. The women, of whom there were about 500, were instructed to hold their little children in their arms.
    A few minutes after we had all assembled, an eyewitness declares, a group of German soldiers in football attire entered the stadium. They snatched the infants from their mothers’ arms and used them as footballs, bouncing and kicking them around the arena.
    Soon the ground was drenched with blood and the stadium was filled with anguished cries of women driven insane as they saw their children being murdered before their eyes.”

    People in at least 12 European countries can be jailed for questioning the pack of lies reported above.

    But in your link of 5.52pm, the hair for blankets and soap (seriously – would any people or soldiers use either, really?) has been shown to be such a lie that even Israeli sources are ‘denying’ it. Now your link leads to a reference cited as Martin Gilbert’s book, The Holocaust. This favourite ‘historian’ of the Establishment has been shown here as peddling falsehoods.

    And as for my post at 4.31pm where I queried:

    Mischling status greatly restricted upward mobility in German society and in the army.

    followed by a picture of:

    Half –Jew Field Marshall Erhard Milch

    was Erhard Milch held back for promotion above Field-Marshall by Hitler because Milch was a jew?

  47. Troll I attacked your ‘This post is pure politics’ comment and the content of your post not you.

    Glad you got the response you desired though.

  48. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.527623

    “Soaps,” a new film by director Eyal Ballas, searches for the root of the myth that Germans used the bodies of Jews to manufacture soap.

    Contemporary historians think the Nazis did not produce soap on an industrial scale using dead human bodies, a position shared by Yad Vashem. But the myth continues to hold sway with the big segments of the public.

    The movie shows that in many places in Israel and the world, people light memorial candles beside soaps they believe were created from the bodies of Jews. Chemical analyses show they are actually made of vegetable materials.

    Hmmm… “But the myth continues to hold sway with the big segments of the public.”

    That would be Agit of ATW and ‘historian’ Martin Gilbert. Anything on lampshades, Agit?

  49. What you’re demonstrating, Allan, is that unlike Holocaust deniers, honest historians make a point of debunking convenient but erroneous beliefs like the human lampshades.

  50. Ross – this is Agit’s link:

    “The Nazis didn’t just kill the Jews; they made use of every inch of them. Women’s hair was shaved off and weaved into blankets for Nazi soldiers. Fat from Jews’ bodies was used to make soap. Gold teeth were pulled out to make gold bars for the Reichsbank. 384,000 pairs of men’s shoes were sent to Germany from Auschwitz. 646,000 men’s suits. 184,000 pairs of eyeglasses.[2]”

    The Holocaust: Systematic Sadism

    Fat from Jews’ bodies was used to make soap

    [2] Martin Gilbert, The Holocaust, p. 773

    A competent historian would check his facts from source references i.e. from documentary records of the camps, supplies, logistics etc.

    And “fat from jews’ bodies…”, yet I read from the ha’aretz link which I posted that fat is a product from the decomposition of dead bodies. As we have all been told, the jews were gassed then cremated (turned to ash) within an hour so where did the fat come from?

    How about the blankets from hair shaved from corpses, Ross. Do you believe that one?

  51. Paul yours wasn’t really a personal attack, I just lumped you in with the others, because I didn’t want to explain why it was a political post.

    It is a political post because I do represent to a certain degree a huge demographic of the american public. It is a demographic for the most part is not verbal or active as I am, yet they are my demographic in the sense that they get up everyday, go to work, stay married to their wives and struggle to raise their children with simple values. Do good in School, go to church, understand the difference between right and wrong, that there are both consequences and benefits to what we do and how we act.

    What we are being sold is that we are the odd balls. That the way to survive is with our hand out, and that anything bad that happens is the fault of someone else. Not only that but since we don’t have our hand out, and we believe you have to work for what you get we are told it is our responsibility to pay for those who refuse to work, and live their life in a proper moral way.

    Obama has defined that in very plain actions. It does not sit well with majority of the real American family. The next 3 years will just continue to define this further and rub it in more and more that being decent is viewed as odd.

    That is causing a very distinct underlying anger that is building more and more.

    Kate as usual you are wrong. This post was not meant to pick a fight with my fellow commentators. In my post all I did was vent frustration, it was directed at no one.

    My fellow commentators are the ones who decided to rather than disagree with my points of view threw personal insults. I only responded after the fact.

    As for you, you express no opinion other than I bore you. Try engaging once in awhile I might just surprise you with a conversation. Instead you just throw out a trite comment that I’m sure you believe was cute or snarky. It was neither, it was an unimaginative unthoughtful response that if anything revealed that you really either have no honest opinion on what I had to say, or lacked the ability to put one into words.

    You could have lifted the conversation to level that you felt was worthy of discussion, you didn’t or couldn’t.

  52. Troll, if they are not verbal or active what is the barometer you use to suggest that they are a huge demographic?

  53. Fat from Jews’ bodies was used to make soap

    Allan, this is true. What the Haaratz article debunks is the notion that was done on

    an industrial scale

    .

    From Antony Beevor’s “Berlin: The Downfall”:

    In 1943 Professor Spanner and Assistant Professor Volman had begun to experiment. They then built special facilities for production. ‘The examination of the premises of the Anatomical Institute revealed 148 human corpses which were stored for the production of soap, of which 126 were male corpses, eighteen female and four children. Eighty male corpses and two female corpses were without heads. Eighty-Nine human heads were also found.’ All corpses and heads were stored in metal containers in an alcohol-carbolic solution. It appears that most of the corpses came from Stutthof concentration camp, near the city.

    So yes it’s untrue to say that Jews were routinely turned into soap, but there was a facility in Danzig that was experimenting with it.

  54. Allan,
    Whatever anyone, whether Allied forces or historians found showing evidence of Nazi atrocities, you would come up with some “loony toon” evil website that denies it.

    As has been said before in regards to the Holocaust, the issue is not so much the numbers murdered as (to paraphrase a recent comment) the fact that “in a civilised society there should have been no room for a barbarous practice such as the Nazi attempt to wipe out European Jewry”
    Was there an attempt to make soap from Jewish corpses? Yes. Was it industrial in nature? I don’t know. Did they use human hair to make other stuff for the military? Yes. How much? We don’t know, and it’s not important. It is the fact that it was done that us evil.

    That is where you show your sickness Allan. There is no sense of outrage or compassion displayed.

    http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/Tour/Auschwitz1/Auschwitz11.html

  55. Phantom, really he keeps souting that hokey lie about him being part of the majority and the best you can come up with is to question his statement that you fear guns?

    Troll, you arent the moral majority,you are the tea bagger minority. Get ready for another humiliating democratic victory

  56. So yes it’s untrue to say that Jews were routinely turned into soap, but there was a facility in Danzig that was experimenting with it.

    Ross – even ha’aretz admits that no jews were turned into soap. The Stutthof concentration camp where bodies were supposed to have been experimented on for converting human fat to soap was for German prisoners – as is stated clearly in the Ha’aretz article. Do you really believe that Germans would use such products?

    But as usual, it is Agit’s over-wrought emotions (no reasoning present at all) which provides the justification for response.

    Firstly this:

    Whatever anyone, whether Allied forces or historians found showing evidence of Nazi atrocities, you would come up with some “loony toon” evil website that denies it.

    I linked to source reports and references at

    Allan@Aberdeen, on July 27th, 2013 at 3:16 PM Said:

    “The revelation that Germans of Jewish blood, knowing the Nazi regime for what it was, served Hitler as uniformed members of his armed forces must come as a profound shock. It will surprise even professional historians of the Nazi years.” –John Keegan, author of The Face of Battle and The Second World War

    and Allan@Aberdeen, on July 27th, 2013 at 11:29 PM Said

    From The Daily Herald, 16th December 1942

    “On July 27 all the Jewish inhabitants of a town near Kiev were ordered to the stadium. The women, of whom there were about 500, were instructed to hold their little children in their arms.
    A few minutes after we had all assembled, an eyewitness declares, a group of German soldiers in football attire entered the stadium. They snatched the infants from their mothers’ arms and used them as footballs, bouncing and kicking them around the arena.
    Soon the ground was drenched with blood and the stadium was filled with anguished cries of women driven insane as they saw their children being murdered before their eyes.”

    and

    Allan@Aberdeen, on July 27th, 2013 at 11:36 PM Said:

    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.527623

    “Soaps,” a new film by director Eyal Ballas, searches for the root of the myth that Germans used the bodies of Jews to manufacture soap.

    Contemporary historians think the Nazis did not produce soap on an industrial scale using dead human bodies, a position shared by Yad Vashem. But the myth continues to hold sway with the big segments of the public.

    The movie shows that in many places in Israel and the world, people light memorial candles beside soaps they believe were created from the bodies of Jews. Chemical analyses show they are actually made of vegetable materials.

    These links are to a book relating to jews serving in the German Army, to immediate reports in a newspaper of the day, and to Ha’aretz (an Israeli media site) Which of these do you consider to be ‘loony toon’ evil? Do try to be specific as you have a propensity to haver.

    As for the Auschwitz tour, why don’t you check out David Cole’s videos?

  57. Phantom I don’t know if you fear Firearms, I do know you don’t understand their proper use in our society nor can fathom the reason there are so many legal owners.

    Paul I know the Demographic because I live with it, I served with it, I pray with it. Most aren’t people who talk a lot, most rarely vote. They work to try to pay their bills and they raise their families. They are the first to volunteer and the last to ask for anything. You never see these people until they move en mass, then god help you.

  58. Allan take your damn pro-nazi shit somewhere else, Ross stop encouraging him. Like a freakin stuck record I swear.

  59. Yes please ignore Allan, just scroll past.

    I may be rude and blunt, but so is my average fellow citizen.

    Wrong. Your average American is friendly and polite.

  60. ““Soaps,” a new film by director Eyal Ballas, searches for the root of the myth that Germans used the bodies of Jews to manufacture soap.”

    We often come back to Ilya Ehrenburg, a Stalin stooge, the man who drove Red Army troops to rape and murder millions of Germans, a master Soviet propagandist and the creator of many of the myths about WW2 which are stil believed.

  61. //We often come back to Ilya Ehrenburg, //

    Whatever. Forget about soap and lampshades – even if we take a fraction of the Nazi’s real crimes, it’s enough to shame mankind forever.

    //The revelation that Germans of Jewish blood, knowing the Nazi regime for what it was, served Hitler as uniformed members of his armed forces must come as a profound shock//

    Only a profound shock for those who don’t know anything about the period, or of human nature for that matter. The rest of us will be aware that Jews everywhere identify primarily with their home country and are as patriotic as the next. That is as true for the US today as it was for Germany in the 1930’s. Like most Germans at the time, they felt their country had been hard done by in the Versailles Treaty and that that wrong had to be righted. There is no reason why they shouldn’t want to join their army.

    Germany wasn’t “the Nazis”, and besides, that regime’s anti-semitism wasn’t its defining feature at the time, either for its supporters or its enemies. That’s a post-war perspective.

  62. Paul I know the Demographic because I live with it, I served with it, I pray with it. Most aren’t people who talk a lot, most rarely vote.

    So Troll what you have done is used your empirical personal experiences and imposed them on a population of 316,331,000 to claim that your personal experiences and opinions represent a huge demographic of the American public?

    Not very scientifically analytical and not a sound basis for yor claim

    They work to try to pay their bills and they raise their families

    So do most people on the planet, (even ‘terrorist voting commie anarchists’ like me)

  63. Petr go scratch

    Paul look at the percentage of Americans that vote, and read the headlines when those who usually don’t do. Go back to Reagan and then again in 94 and 2012.

    You know maybe, just maybe the fact that I live here might give me a better view than you. Just as you have a better view of why people do what they do in your country than I do, or are you so arrogant that you believe you have a better read on my nation than someone who lives in it?

  64. I like guns.

    I , like most Americans, choose not to own a firearm, because I see no reason to own one. The costs outweigh the benefits. There’s no point, I’m not afraid.

    I support common sense controls that would require a person to demonstrate proficiency in markmansship and safety before they touch a gun ( not the case now ). I think that all buyers should have to undergo a background check ( not the case now ). Stuff like that.

    In responsible hands, guns are fine things.

  65. Paul look at the percentage of Americans that vote, and read the headlines when those who usually don’t do. Go back to Reagan and then again in 94 and 2012.

    So, you’re saying that when Republicans were voted into the Presidency the electoral turnout was bigger, it was ‘people who usually don’t vote’ and as a result a Republican President was elected?

    You know maybe, just maybe the fact that I live here might give me a better view than you. Just as you have a better view of why people do what they do in your country than I do, or are you so arrogant that you believe you have a better read on my nation than someone who lives in it?

    Of course not I’m merely exploring the basis for your claims. I will however remind you of your comments regarding arrogance / better views of nations than the people who actually live there the next time your make some rediculous comment regarding mine.

  66. As nearly all here know, the big majority of Americans aren’t militant supporters of any party, including the Tea Party Confusion.

    They don’t obsess on guns, duh Constitution, Israel, ” excessive ” regulations, any of that. A normal person will might not speak of such things for years.

    They coalesce around the broad middle, and have always done so.

  67. Phantom most Americans own at least one gun, the fact that you refuse to believe that doesn’t make it true. The numbers prove you wrong.

  68. Phantom most Americans own at least one gun, the fact that you refuse to believe that doesn’t make it true.

    Eh?

  69. You’re wildly wrong on this.

    Most households do not have a gun in the house, and the huge majority of adults ( a completely different statistic ) do not own guns.

    This would include the big majority of adults in eastern Pennsylvania.

    You need to get out more. Introduce yourself to your neighbors.

  70. question for you Phantom. Why did not one gun control bill pass during this last session.

    Was it the evil NRA, or the fact that politicians may pay lip service to such ideas but they know that 100s of millions that own guns will vote them out. Except of course in places where they vote for one nanny mayor who surrounds himself with armed guards while crusading to take that protection from others.

    Your smart, but you really don’t know your own country outside your little bubble. What you view as middle of the road views are considered leftist views by the majority.

    You can’t even be honest. You twist a minor amount of transactions of one citizen selling his firearm to another as the norm when it is the exception. That is the only way you can buy a firearm legally without a background check. 99.9% of firearms purchased in the US are done so through FFLs. ALL FFLs have to run a BG check even at gun shows.

    Yes everyone should be trained. I was trained at 8 on a police range both my girls were trained at 10. In the stat of Pa training is not required, yet every Friday we hold a Federally Licensed training class on self defense with a hand gun. There is a 3 month waiting list.

  71. a special Note for Seimi, Ernest, Paul and any others.
    Go fu*ck yourselves. I get attacked if attack you personally yet you feel no restraint in personal attacks on me. So Fuc* You.

    Where was my ‘personal attack’ on you? Please highlight it and show me. Do you mean when I pulled you on referring to another poster as the ‘thing from Texas’? That wasn’t an attack. I asked you how you would feel if someone spoke about your wife like that. I also recognised that some pretty despicable things had been said about you here. That’s not an attack.

  72. You sell guns.

    When a prospective customer wants to buy a gun from you, do you make sure that they know how to use it before you sell it to them?

    If not, why not?

    What is your employer’s policy on this?

  73. no Paul I’m not saying when republicans were voted in turn out was bigger. I’m saying the demographic was different.

    Reagan won with both Democrat and republican votes, clinton lost control of the house and senate because democrats stayed home and republicans voted. Bush won a second term because it was a vote on his conduct of the war. The tea party is neither republican or democrat it has people from both worried about the economy. Phantom thinks it’s just right wing loons it’s not.

    What you can’t grasp from your distance is mood, when the mood shifts one group stays home while another comes out.

    Obama is an anomaly based solely on his color, white guilt and minority support. He can’t and won’t be touched. He can not however run again and the damage his policies have done maybe being ignored by the press and the inside the beltway crowd, but believe me it isn’t being ignored by the people.

    But that’s ok I know I’ll not convince you, I don’t need to. Don’t however act like you understand though cause you don’t.

  74. We follow the Law Phantom. I know that’s a novel concept. We also offer anyone who purchases from us a discount on the training class, and everyone that buys from us it is suggested they go to a range and get a lesson.

    It is not required that they do so, but if your going to buy a tool that’s purpose is to kill you should learn how to use it.

    You really don’t get the concept that the people that buy guns legally are responsible people. The cities with the highest gun violence are the cities where people who are barred by law to own guns use them against each other, and then if they get caught aren’t prosecuted with the gun laws they violated but just the crime they committed.

  75. No Paul I’m not saying when republicans were voted in turn out was bigger. I’m saying the demographic was different

    Please explain in detail this claim.

    Reagan won with both Democrat and republican votes, clinton lost control of the house and senate because democrats stayed home and republicans voted. Bush won a second term because it was a vote on his conduct of the war

    Please explain in detail how you can possibly know that

  76. Ah.

    So you sell guns to people without making sure that they know how to use them first.

    That’s a very irresponsible policy, for both you and your reckless employer.

  77. because the numbers were basically the same yet the power shifted, it really is that simple.

    I know these things because I live here and I am exposed to the details in a much greater depth than you.

    Until the last election I worked for the GOP (only in a minor roll) I have since resigned all positions I held, and am now a registered Independent.

    Do you follow soccer? or any sport? Do you know whats going on with your team?

    I don’t follow sports, I follow politics. I’m whats called a wonk. I’m the type of person that has c-span on the tele all day. I watch these idiots as they work.

    do you?

  78. Overwrought emotions my foot!
    The respected historians, plus Nazi documentation and records, plus eyewitness allied forces accounts on entering concentration camps, plus survivor testimony all point to the truth of the Holocaust ad what Hitler had set out to do.

    Whaddya think the Nuremburg Trials were about mein untermensch,
    badly run holiday camps?
    Whyd’a think the Russians hated the Nazis so much? Because they invaded their country or because they treated the Russians as subhumans?
    Really Allan, you show a sickness that I never thought I would come across here in this country.
    I have always said that it was wrong to condemn ordinary Germans for what the Nazis did, and that quite possibly given the right circumstances, ordinary decent British people could be made to obey a ruthless regime in exactly the same way.
    I just never expected to meet a party member here on ATW.
    Interesting too, that the more people try to reason with you the more you seem to glorify in the whole thing.
    As I said in my ‘overwrought comment’ no expression of outrage or compassion for those murdered by the people he so obviously admires.

  79. no Phantom it’s not.

    The constitution guarantees the right for someone to own and bear arms. Sorry you feel that document to be irresponsible policy.

    Maybe our forefathers had more faith and understanding of the people than you.

  80. The Constitution does not prohibit gun sellers from asking if buyers know which end the bullet comes out of.

    You don’t bother to ask the question, because you would lose some money if you did ask the question.

    Lots of your customers have no training, and you choose to sell them guns..

  81. Troll — Someone who studies a lot would have read a lot, and thus would know how to correctly punctuate a sentence.

  82. because the numbers were basically the same yet the power shifted, it really is that simple

    No they weren’t, there is more than 18,000,000 of a difference in votes cast in the years 1992 – 2004. Did you even bother opening let alone looking at the stats link I provided earlier?

    I know these things because I live here and I am exposed to the details in a much greater depth than you

    Again, I’ll remind you of that quote in your next ill informed rant about my country.

    Don’t however act like you understand though cause you don’t.

    I’m not trying to act like I understand I’m trying to ascertain the veracity of the basis for your claims.

  83. Phantom –

    You expect a gun shop to ensure customers can use a gun properly before selling? And you tell us you work in insurance?

    By your logic a car dealer should put a customer through a driving test before doing a deal.

  84. now your just being stupid.

    It is not required in my state that you have training. Just because you might sell one of your products to someone who doesn’t understand what they are getting don’t assign your lack of scruples to others.

    Phantom you don’t understand guns, you don’t understand the legal process around them, and you definitely don’t understand those who own and carry them legally.

    You are emotional and out of your depth.

    Now I’m off to go put more guns in the hands of good law abiding citizens.

    Have a nice day

    http://graphicnovelreporter.com/sites/default/files/watchmenhappyface.jpg

  85. One would have to travel to the most remote location in Papua New Guinea or perhaps encounter a member of the Mayoruna tribe deep in the jungles of Brazil to encounter a person with less understanding of the United States than Troll. And even then, they could probably spell better.

  86. Agit8ed –

    “Whaddya think the Nuremburg Trials were about mein untermensch”

    Justice in part, but with a large dollop of triumphalism and whitewashing. At least one of the prosecuting nations was at least as bad as the accused were, and in many ways demonstrably worse. The trials worked their overall intended purpose, of planting the thought into minds the world over that only one side was bad.

    “I have always said that … ordinary decent British people could be made to obey a ruthless regime in exactly the same way.”

    They already do. Watch at the next General Election. A tiny number of candidates will promise to uphold the mega-regulatory State which crushes our freedoms and loots more than a half of our income. Millions will then vote for these monsters.

  87. “Justice in part, but with a large dollop of triumphalism and whitewashing. !”

    Well what else would you do Pete, after wrecking a whole continent and killing around 72million human beings world wide?

    Surely the survivors couldn’t wait to indulge in a bit of triumphalism??

    It was probably the first thing on their minds after surveying the craters where their houses used to stand, and identifying bits of Aunt Edie or Mum after the last air raid.
    ” I know what will make us feel better!” they cried.
    “Let’s indulge in a bit of triumphalism and whitewashing! Aunt Edie would have liked that….”

  88. At least one of the prosecuting nations was at least as bad as the accused were, and in many ways demonstrably worse. The trials worked their overall intended purpose, of planting the thought into minds the world over that only one side was bad.

    You’re seriously trying to equate the political murders, forced labour, show trials of that mad bastard meglomaniac Stalin with the genocidal attempted eradication of a people based on religion / ethnicity?

    They already do. Watch at the next General Election. A tiny number of candidates will promise to uphold the mega-regulatory State which crushes our freedoms and loots more than a half of our income. Millions will then vote for these monsters.

    Hyperbole much Pete?

    I’ve heard these facile sounbites from you many times but can’t remember one single instance when you’ve attempted to articulate a credible alternative. Wanna give it a go?

  89. Paul McMahon –

    Yes, and no hyperbole.

    If you go home one day to find I’m holding up your family with a gun so that I can loot more than a half of their income, and that I return to do it every time they get paid, you’d rightly regard me as a monster. This is precisely and exactly what the State does.

    I’ve given many examples of libertarian societies. Don’t pretend you’re Phantom.

  90. If you buy a car, you must show a Drivers License that proves your ability to drive. If you don’t the auto dealer won’t sell itto ou.

    If you rent a chainsaw or a backhoe, they will ask if you know how to use them.

    Troll sells a weapon whose purpose is to kill or to greatly wound someone, and he and his boss couldn’t be bothered to even ask if the prospective owner knows anything about the deadly weapon that they peddle.

  91. Pete

    You have never given any examples.

    In fairness, you couldn’t since there have never been any libertarian societies. The concept is absurd.

  92. I asked you to give credible examples as alternatives Pete.

    I’ll take the above comment as a no.

    Comparing Stalin’s murderous camapaign of anyone who he considered a political threat to his paranoid meglomania and the Nazi’s attempted extermination of a people based on religion / ethnicity is comparing apples with oranges.

  93. ” If you go home one day to find I’m holding up your family with a gun so that I can loot more than a half of their income, and that I return to do it every time they get paid, you’d rightly regard me as a monster. This is precisely and exactly what the State does.”

    Pete your loyalty to an unworkable idealistic system is admirable, but you need to consider the fact that whilst most of us agree the State has become too big and unaccountable, we still accept the need for government. And in order for it to work, we have to give up some of our cash for the general good, maintenance and continuity of society. Within reason it’s a price well worth paying.

    On kibbutz for example, we volunteers would receive food,clothing,housing and health care plus an allowance of around £5 a week to spend in the kibbutz “col bo” or communal shop, in return for about 40 hours a week work.
    What more does a healthy idealistic young man need in such a society?

  94. There’s nothing better than source material to make a point, and my point is that the mass murders of millions in the former Soviet Union were the result of moral values propounded 2,000 years earlier by the great Jewish prophets. Mass murder, destruction, moral perversion:

    http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blogspot.co.uk/?zx=aaed15ec085c2713

    Professor Henry Srebrnik, a Canadian-Jewish scholar, writes of a meeting called by the United Jewish Committee at Grosvenor House in London on November 5, 1942, the eve of the 25th anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution:
    “at which Chief Rabbi Hertz fulsomely praised the Soviet Union for outlawing anti-Semitism; Hertz reminded his audience that ‘the lives of millions of our Jewish brethren depend on a Russian victory’. Another speaker, Mrs Israel M. Sieff, wife of one of the directors of Marks & Spencer Ltd., asserted that the polity of the Soviet Union was based upon moral values propounded 2,000 years earlier by the great Jewish prophets.”

    Solzhenitsyn called it correctly when he wrote that those in charge of the Russian Revolution were not Russian, but they led the most despicable regime in history and that the reason why none of their atrocities are ever the subject of film and documentary is that the same people who ordered the mass murder of millions of Ukrainians, Balts, Russians and anybody who came under their thrall are the same people who control mass media.
    today

  95. Agit

    When did you last live in Israel?

    Do you keep in touch with any kibbutzniks?

    What an interesting experience you’ve had.

  96. There’s nothing better than source material to make a point,

    You mean credible source material? You seem to be incapable of making that vital distinction, possibly because you lack the experience to be able to identify serious scholarship and research from blather on websites.

  97. Paul McMahon –

    I didn’t answer because Phantom has asked me that so many times it’s boring. How many times does someone have to answer the same damned question? Look, let me dust off a famous quote by AJP Taylor:

    Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. He could exchange his money for any other currency without restriction or limit. He could buy goods from any country in the world on the same terms as he bought goods at home. For that matter, a foreigner could spend his life in this country without permit and without informing the police. Unlike the countries of the European continent, the state did not require its citizens to perform military service. An Englishman could enlist, if he chose, in the regular army, the navy, or the territorials. He could also ignore, if he chose, the demands of national defence. Substantial householders were occasionally called on for jury service. Otherwise, only those helped the state who wished to do so. The Englishman paid taxes on a modest scale: nearly £200 million in 1913-14, or rather less than 8 per cent.

    That is society incomparably more libertarian than today, and it was more Statist than had existed for a century. Phantom’s own country was libertarian until Lincoln centralised power under the central state.

    Your country of birth was stunningly libertarian for centuries, along with Iceland. Many European states and statelets and principalities and city-states have been libertarian. If you’re asking why there are none today, you’re asking why the Power Elites who control every facet of life, to their great enrichment, don’t give it all up. To ask the question is to get the answer.

    Conservatives might have noticed Taylor check 1914 above. This is significant. Two of the three great social revolutions that have happened in Britain in the 20th Century came about by great wars. All three dissolved liberties and have proved very painful.

    One day conservatives might wake up their sleepy heads and realise that war is always bad for our freedoms and only strengthens the State.

  98. Agit8ed –

    ” .. but you need to consider the fact that whilst most of us agree the State has become too big and unaccountable, we still accept the need for government.”

    Only because your head is so full of court propaganda you’ve lost the ability to think critically.

    Really, it’s funny to see you and others, day after day, repeat every fallacy and myth you’ve ever been told, without the slightest original thought. That you cannot even conceive of a society ordered in any way except the ones of you’ve demonstrates how little thinking you can do.

    There is not one thing, not a single thing, which you can identify to me, that can be done better and more efficiently by the State rather than by free people in free markets.

  99. But of course all the examples that you supply still had a government which provided services to society in exchange for taxes. And, of course you ommit a relevant event from 1914 – 1918 which would change Europe and to a lesser degree the world (and all the things you state above) irrevocably.

    I’ve given many examples of libertarian societies. Don’t pretend you’re Phantom

    Maybe so Pete but you’re an intelligent man and you know that libertarian societies aren’t in the business of running countries.

  100. Paul McMahon –

    I cited the relevent event by drawing attention to the date and talking of great wars.

  101. England / Britain was never a libertarian society.

    You always had tax. The Royal Navy didm’t get its ships for free at Tesco’s.

    There has been a significant government role at all times, as all here know.

  102. Good, so you’ll know that wars and rebuilding nations in the wake of wars cost money.

    Now, would you care to give me credible examples to taxes and governments?

  103. Phantom,
    My first time in Israel was 1970 -’72. On kibbutz, learning the language.
    Came back in 1978-9 leading a group of (Christian) volunteers on a year’s voluntary programme.
    Back again in 1981, my first wife and I were living/working in Eilat on the Red Sea when the Egyptian-Israeli peace accord was signed, and later on when the settlement of Yamit was levelled. A group of us used to fish from the beaches in Sinai using plastic refuse sacks and baited hooks. Heaven! I still have photo slides of those days.

    http://articles.philly.com/2004-10-17/news/25388701_1_peace-treaty-palestinian-partner-yonatan-bassi

    Then in 1982 we were in the north and got caught in Kiryat Shmone (District 8) when the PLO were firing katushya rockets into Israel from Lebanon. We were stuck in an underground shelter while the rockets came down. I have to admit to being quite excited at the time, but that was probably due to stupidity.

    We left Israel 1983 and I have only been back three times. 1986, 2000 and 2009.

    I owe Israel and Israelis a great deal. The country because it let me live asthma free, and the people for opening my eyes to other life styles and great kindnesses.

  104. More on the ‘magic number’ with German plans to kill 6,000,000 jews cited in the Contemporary Jewish Record (the Chicago Sentinel) of 12th October 1939

    http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/1939-plan-to-kill-6000000-jews.html

    “Scarcely two months before Hitler ‘s aggression against Poland, Hans Ziegler, a ranking official in the Propaganda Ministry, emphasized, according to a dispatch by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, in his book entitled “Juden and der Weltkrieg,” that one of the worth-while results of the coming world war would be the annihilation of the six million Jews in East and Central Europe. Other warnings of the same dire character have been uttered by Nazi officials and publications for the past several years.”

    See that, Petr – that’s a photostat of the original publication. That’s ‘source reference’, no blather, no under-graduate sociology BS – just source reference.

    That 6 million number has been doing the rounds since 1905.

  105. ” Only because your head is so full of court propaganda you’ve lost the ability to think critically.”

    Congratulations Pete
    That is both funny and insulting in the one sentence!

  106. We were stuck in an underground shelter while the rockets came down. I have to admit to being quite excited at the time, but that was probably due to stupidity.

    I’ve experienced similar feelings in similat circumstances. It’s the rush of adrenelin through the body that’s exiting. It is indeed stupid to feel such a feeling in such a dangerous situation but it’s the body’s natural feeling of becoming alert when danger is imminent.

  107. Paul,
    I think it’s a man thing. My first wife was terrified, I felt only a sense of exhilaration and a desire to go up and actually watch. but that was probably because I had never experienced real battle. I think (most) women are instinctively looking to preserve life, and (most)men like the combat/danger element. it’s a kind of madness.

  108. I think that it’s the body natural ultra alertness defence against danger that heightens the senses and gives that sense of exhilaration.

  109. ” I think that it’s the body natural ultra alertness defence against danger that heightens the senses and gives that sense of exhilaration.”
    I think you’re right and there are times when I so wish I was a young man again. I have many happy and (to me) memorable and exciting experiences to look back on.
    If I don’t do some or all of the Camino d’Compostella walk, my next big adventure will be dying…
    🙂

  110. ” Until August 1914 a sensible, law-abiding Englishman could pass through life and hardly notice the existence of the state, beyond the post office and the policeman. He could live where he liked and as he liked. He had no official number or identity card. He could travel abroad or leave his country for ever without a passport or any sort of official permission. ”

    Pete, this just such nonsense!
    It might have been true for ” a sensible, law-abiding Englishman” of independent means, but not true for your ordinary Joe who was too busy keeping body and soul together.

    Have a look at all these photos of (not) sensible English folk living in workhouses..

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=life+in+a+workhouse&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NmD1UaT3HsWJ0AWVw4DQAw&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1525&bih=668
    What would you say to them Pete?

  111. I forgot to ask you where you had your experiences?

    C’mon Agi, I grew up in Belfast in the seventies and eighties 😉

    I’ve been caught up in countless bomb scares / evacuations but have only been in two situations where bombs have actually exploded.

    One was in my early teens when when the bomb exploded after we had been evacuated to a safe distance and the second was at the funeral of my friend Seán Savage, who was killed in Gibraltar along with two other IRA members in 1988, when the funeral was attacked with grenades.

  112. You were in Milltown Cemetery when Michael Stone started lobbing grenades??

  113. Mm.
    1988 i was just going through a divorce and had moved from the Midlands to Berkshire.
    I don’t even remember reading this at the time, I had to look it up.

  114. Paul,

    who was killed in Gibraltar along with two other IRA members in 1988,”

    Don’t you mean terrorists? – let’s not be squeamish about it, after all they were looking to plant a bomb to explode during a public gathering, which had nothing to do with ‘the Troubles’. I can understand your sensitivity on the matter, but trying to deliberately kill inocent folk is an act of terrorism in anyone’s language. I, and my family were very near the garage where they were shot, and I have no difficulty in calling them for what they were, the two men and the woman – terrorists!

  115. Ernest

    Paul wasn’t making a political point in mentioning this story. He didn’t even mention who killed them. He was just describing for agit8ed the circumstances by which he came to be involved in a violent incident.

  116. //trying to deliberately kill inocent folk //

    They weren’t trying to kill innocent people; they were trying to kill soldiers and probably didn’t care much about any civilians who were also killed.

    Paul, what do you think of the story that the planned attack in Gibraltar was disclosed to British intelligence by IRA man Brendan Davison?

  117. Noel Cunningham –

    Why aren’t soldiers innocent people? What are the principles involved?

  118. Aren’t they donut munchers living on looted funds, like the evil cops and firemen and teachers?

  119. The IRA were private actors fighting heavily armed jack booted government funded thugs.

    I think that half of ATW should praise them, since govt is always bad and private is always good.

    Think of them as a Troll Militia using Second Amendment principles in order to create a Libertarian Nirvana

  120. //Why aren’t soldiers innocent people? //

    Sorry. In this case of course they were.

    I understood Ernest’s “innocent folk” to mean civilians in Gibraltar. If by “innocent folk” he meant soldiers, then I shouldn’t have corrected him.

  121. Jesus God I love using people’s own words against them. In this place, it is too easy.

    Tim Russett, wherever you are, I tip my hat to you.

  122. The IRA were private actors fighting heavily armed jack booted government funded thugs.

    Yes indeed.

  123. Warms the heart to see my name repeatedly mentioned on a thread I’ve neglected to grace with my wit and wisdom.

    Troll, your never-ending obsession of all things Daphne gives me a great amount of pleasure. Considering I rarely comment on atw these days, it’s quite telling how much I’ve gotten under your thin layer of skin.

  124. It is astonishing, pathetic to see.

    Esp. as Daphne as far as I’ve ever seen, never attacked Troll ( or anyone else) in any nasty or vicious way. Such actions would be entirely outside her moral code.

    They’re not outside everyone’s code.

  125. Then your blind as well as dense Phantom where Daphne is concerned.

    Also connecting my name to anything to do with the IRA is silly even for you. I understand you get emotional, but now your going to accuse me of being anti-government?

    I may believe in a smaller government, but never have I advocated no government or violence as a use as a political tactic.

    There are somethings you and I agree on, a lot of things we disagree on. Stop letting your emotions run away with you and try to keep them straight.

    Daphne your a vile duplicitous fraud. I mentioned you in passing, sorry I did. Your absence from these pages has been quit welcome, don’t come back on my account. You have driven more people from here than most.

  126. Ernest, No I don’t mean terrorists. I was explaining to Agi the experiences he asked me about and referred to Seán Savage in the first instance of him being my friend and in the second instance of him being an IRA member.

    You suggest that they were “looking to plant a bomb to explode during a public gathering, which had nothing to do with ‘the Troubles” and “deliberately kill inocent folk”.

    It’s my understanding that they were attempting to attack the 1st Battalion Royal Anglian Regiment, who had recently arrived in Gibraltar after a tour of duty in Northern Ireland. Wether the attempted bomb would have had a warning or not is complete specualtion. “Deliberately kill inocent folk” is also open to speculation (see part regarding warning above) as a car bomb is ultimately no different to a pilot dropping a bomb from 20,000 feet in the air, there is a high possibility / probability of civilian causualties. Suffice to say that the Seán Savage I knew was not in the business of ‘killing innocent civilians’.

    I’ve no wish to turn this into a debate regarding the definition of a terrorist Ernest as it’s a cyclical argument and ultimately your, mine, or anyone else’s opinion will not be changed I just felt I had to comment on a comment directly addressed to me.

    Paul, what do you think of the story that the planned attack in Gibraltar was disclosed to British intelligence by IRA man Brendan Davison?

    I’d met Brendan Davison a few times after he was released in 1987 Noel. I first became aware of the informer accusation after reading Dillon’s ‘Dirty War’ book and was immediately struck that it was only in the wake of Brendan Davison’s murder that the informer alleagations were levelled against him. Did he let the spooks know about Gibraltar?, I don’t know, I’ve heard much speculation of many, including Adams / McGuinness, informing on Gibraltar.

    It was a dirty, squalid war that the IRA and the British intelligence services fought. My own opinion on Brendan Davison, having only met him a few times, was that he was an extremely committed Republican but as I said it was an odious business where things seldom seemed as they were so I suppose people will never know.

  127. Troll

    You have in the past spoken of ” legitimate militias ” in the present day US, that could take up arms against a tyrannical government should it arise.

    There were a certain number of persons in Ireland who thought of the UK in Ireland as just that – a tyranny, and they saw the IRA as an entity that could ” legitimately ” attack that tyrannical government.

    You oppose terrorism against civilians, sometimes, but if you accept the premise of militias that can oppose government tyrannies, then you unknowingly have legitimized the IRA’s right to attack British soldiers and other government officials, the servants of a tyranny in their eyes.

    The same way that you gave a pass to what the Irgun did to British soldiers ( and police – donut munchers- ) in Palestine.

    Pete has said that it would be good if British police and civilians ” marched on Westminster “, presumably to do violence to a Parliament elected by the British people. He has spoken of hanging people he doesn’t like from the lampposts. There’s been much talk like this over the years.

    You both do oppose the IRA, and no one challenges that fact, but both of your mindsets are not as far from the IRA as you would care to believe. You both glorify the gun, and you both have praised the gun as a means of getting your way if this government or some future American or British government doesn’t dance to your tune.

  128. Paul,

    Ah! you seem to be a devotee of ‘BBC speak’, where the definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant.

    As we say “One man’s terrorist is another man’s hero”.

  129. At risk of repeating myself Ernest:

    I’ve no wish to turn this into a debate regarding the definition of a terrorist Ernest as it’s a cyclical argument and ultimately your, mine, or anyone else’s opinion will not be changed I just felt I had to comment on a comment directly addressed to me.

    However your the definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant is interesting in the wake of the Thatcher government’s association and support of Agosto Pinochet and the Khmer Rouge.

  130. Thatcher supported the Khmer Rouge? Huh?

    Pinochet was a saint a democrat and a benefactor when compared with Castro or Che. Yet no dreamy T shirts of Pinichet.

  131. ‘BBC speak’, where the definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant.

    That isn’t BBC speak – it’s universal.

  132. Pinochet was a saint a democrat and a benefactor when compared with Castro or Che.

    Maybe you should ask the thousands murdered, disappeared and raped in Chile if that’s true Phantom, however we are speaking about a western government’s support of murderpos dictators and its

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/jan/09/cambodia definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant not Castro or Che.

    Thatcher supported the Khmer Rouge? Huh?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/jan/09/cambodia

  133. Thatcher was no friend of the Khmer Rouge or was she a fan of anything that they stood for. You correctly state that she gave aid / training to them at a time when that they were fighting the Vietnamese, who were seen as a primary error. The Vietnamese, wrongly, were seen as the greater threat.

    Castro killed very many too, and he never walked away from power. He created the conditions for enduring poverty, which that sad island still endures.

    Pinochet walked away from power and allowed for a transition to democracy. He created the conditions for prosperity in that country. Chile is rich by regional standards now while the Cubans don’t have toilet paper.

    Of the two, Pinochet was the better leader and the better man.

  134. Pinochet was was a fascist who ‘disappeared’ many thousands of people. Wash your mouth out with soap, Phantom.

  135. I said that the Thatcher admin supported the Khmer Rouge – They did. Wether she was no friend of the Khmer Rouge or was she a fan of anything that they stood for is immaterial to the fact that her gov gave them support.

    Pinochet walked away from power and allowed for a transition to democracy. He created the conditions for prosperity in that country. Chile is rich by regional standards now while the Cubans don’t have toilet paper

    Once again this is not about a comparison of Chile & Cuba, it’s about a western government it’s about a western government whose figureghead was a hero to many on ATW giving succor help and aid to murderous dictatorships.

  136. it’s about a western government whose figureghead was a hero to many on ATW giving succor help and aid to murderous dictatorships.

    At least it’s all behind us. Obama, for example, would never provide funding and support to the Bahraini or Saudi dictatorships.

  137. Petr

    Why was it OK if Che and Castro killed people they didn’t like, but its not OK when Pinochet did it?

    At best, aren’t they moral equals, except that Pinochet had the vastly superior economic result for his people?

  138. No. Che and Castro were emancipators, great great men, and socialist revolutionaries to their toes. Pinochet was a fascist dictatorial thug much loved by the only slightly less putrid Maggie.

  139. Why was it OK if Che and Castro killed people they didn’t like, but its not OK when Pinochet did it?

    I can’t speak for Petr Phantom but I will give my two cents worth. It’s not okay but the difference is that Casto’s ‘revolution’ was incredibely popular amongst Cubans whereas Pinochet led a military coup to overthrow a democratically elected government.

    But, as I said before, this isn’t about a comparison of Chile & Cuba so could you please go back to Ernest’s

    The definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant.

    And how the Thatcher admin chose to turn a blind eye to the atrocities of Pinochet & the Khmer Rouge in it’s support for them?

  140. Every single time the Pinochet is mentioned Castro must be mentioned.

    Castro promised to be a democrat and then the minute he had all the reins of power he reneged on the promise.

    Which is why a huge number of Cubans opted to leave the country when they had any chance to do so.

    Che was a foreign adventurer. I went past his house in Buenos Aires.

  141. Paul – The popularity of Castro’s revolution and subsequent dictatorship was a tad less among the thousands he imprisoned or killed, and of course the hundreds of thousands who have fled his dictatorship.

    His popularity is far greater among the far left outside of Cuba(see for example Petr) than among everyday Cubans.

    That is not to say that Pinochet wasn’t also vile, he was.

  142. Every single time the Pinochet is mentioned Castro must be mentioned

    Bollocks he must. When did Thatcher support Castro in the face of an international arrest warrant and attempted extradition by a third country to face accusations of murder of it’s citizens?

  143. Castro ordered the execution of many who had fought with him, for democracy, against Batista.

    A fact that those wearing dreamy Che shirts are blissfully unaware of

  144. The popularity of Castro’s revolution and subsequent dictatorship was a tad less among the thousands he imprisoned or killed, and of course the hundreds of thousands who have fled his dictatorship.

    I agree Mahons.

    Once again this is not about a comparison of Chile & Cuba.

  145. Castro’s regime executed almost 10 times as many people as Pinochet’s despite Cuba have a much smaller population.

    If you condemn Pinochet for killing people but support Castro, then it isn’t Pinochet’s killings that you object to.

    The chief executioner for Castro was Che Guevara who appears to have been a sadist cut from the same cloth as Beria or Mengele:

    The one job Guevara excelled at was when he was commander of La Cabana prison, Havana’s equivalent of Moscow’s notorious Lubyanka. He liked overseeing executions and personally administering the coup de grace. Pierre San Martin, an inmate of La Cabana who made it out alive, gave the tenor of Guevara’s administration in an article published in El Nuevo Herald from December 28, 1997.

    A 14-year-old boy, badly beat up, was brought to the prison. When those in his cell asked why he was there, he explained that he had tried to protect his father, who was being taken to the firing squad. Che’s guards soon returned and led the boy from the cell. “Then we spotted him, strutting around the blood-drenched execution yard with his hands on his waist and barking orders – Che Guevara himself,” Mr. San Martin recalled.

    “‘Kneel down!’ Che barked at the boy.

    “‘Assassins!’ we screamed from our window.

    “‘I said: KNEEL DOWN!’ Che barked again.

    “The boy stared Che resolutely in the face. ‘If you’re going to kill me,’ he yelled, ‘you’ll have to do it while I’m standing! Men die standing!’

    “Then we saw Che unholstering his pistol. He put the barrel to the back of the boy’s neck and blasted. The shot almost decapitated the young boy.”

  146. It’s about Ernest’s

    The definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant

    And how the Thatcher adinistration seemed to have no problems with the violent atrocities carried out by The Pinochet & Khmer Rouge dictatorships when it chos to support them.
    Phantom however seems to have successfully turned it into a Castro v Pinochet competition.

  147. Paul – So if I follow you criticism of Thatcher’s degree of support for Pinochet or Khmer Rouge is relevant, but sympathy for miscreants other than Pinochet or the Khmer gang is not? Wouldn’t that in and of itself establish Ernest’s point.

  148. Conversations meander, Paul.

    On this very thread, we have open support for those who betrayed the Cuban revolution and created a catastrophe for human rights.

    Pinochet is universally trashed, while a much greater villain is thought as some kind of flawed fighter for dignity. Which he most cetainly was not.

  149. But sympathy for miscreants other than Pinochet or the Khmer gang is not? Wouldn’t that in and of itself establish Ernest’s point.

    No one is aruing that Ernest’s point is untrue what I’m trying to demonstrate is that it applies to many.

    On this very thread, we have open support for those who betrayed the Cuban revolution and created a catastrophe for human rights

    By who? Petr?

    Pinochet is universally trashed

    Not by the heroine of some on this blog and her cronies he wasn’t.

  150. Paul

    Yes, Petr

    Petr Tarasov, on July 29th, 2013 at 5:37 PM Said:
    No. Che and Castro were emancipators, great great men, and socialist revolutionaries to their toes. Pinochet was a fascist dictatorial thug much loved by the only slightly less putrid Maggie.

  151. Paul
    Yes, Petr

    I’ve never known a singular individual bar Troll to generate such commentary.

    Anyhow, I’ve made my point regarding the Heroine’s support and association with dictatorial murderous regimes so I’ll wait for other to comment on that point.

  152. ” it’s about a western government whose figureghead was a hero to many on ATW giving succor help and aid to murderous dictatorships.”

    I don’t think you’re correct here Petr.
    For a kick off the British people have never been keen on despots or dictators.
    Whatever Margaret Thatcher’s reasons for helping Pinochet, it does not follow that she would have actively supported him oppress anyone.
    Secondly democratic countries have always differentiated between allies and “countries we may not approve of but for either economic or political reasons we have to deal with.”

  153. We are going around in circles. Suffice to say and I think we can all agree that there are many people across the political spectrum right and left who are guilty of Ernest’s maxim – it isn’t just ‘BBC speak’

  154. It’s about a western government whose figureghead was a hero to many on ATW giving succor help and aid to murderous dictatorships.”
    I don’t think you’re correct here Petr.

    I think that you’re incorrect as it was me who wrote the comment you attribut to Petr

    Whatever Margaret Thatcher’s reasons for helping Pinochet, it does not follow that she would have actively supported him oppress anyone

    Then why did she send the SAS to train the Khmer Rouge?

    We are going around in circles. Suffice to say and I think we can all agree that there are many people across the political spectrum right and left who are guilty of Ernest’s maxim

    Precisely the point I’m trying to make Colm. All that stuff about taking the beam from your own eye above applies here.

  155. The UK and US aided the USSR.

    Does this mean that we supported that regime?

    We did support that awful govt, but only as a necessary means of self sefense.

    Words have multiple meanings, and we shouldn’t play the fiddle with them

    Any training given to Cambodian communists was part of an effort to check an expansionist Vietnam at the time.

    Assisting one awful bloc of communists against another, as a tactic.

  156. Any training given to Cambodian communists was part of an effort to check an expansionist Vietnam at the time.
    Assisting one awful bloc of communists against another, as a tactic

    Okay then let’s have none of these moralistic high horse sentiments about ‘the definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant’ and supporting murderous dictatorships then.

    The UK and US aided the USSR.
    Does this mean that we supported that regime?
    We did support that awful govt, but only as a necessary means of self sefense.

    You’d better not let Troll or Pete Moore catch you saying that the UK and US bowed to Soviet intimidation.

  157. Perhaps even Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams have their regrets?

    Perhaps they do?

  158. It is more accurate to say ” aid ( or training ) was given to xxx ”

    It is misleading to say that Mrs Thatcher ” supported ” the Khmer Rouge government. I well imagine that she detested that regime.

    By the way Petr, my next door neighbors are ethnic Chinese who escaped the Communist Khmer Rouge government, a Communist govt that murdered many of their family and neighbors. They don’t speak very highly of Communism. Are they mistaken?

  159. Petr – A distinction without a difference in practice I am afraid given the experience in places (China, Russia) where it had taken hold.

  160. They sure called themselves communists.

    How come every communist country ends up in gulag and poverty?

  161. It is misleading to say that Mrs Thatcher ” supported ” the Khmer Rouge government. I well imagine that she detested that regime

    I didn’t say that, I said that she supported the Khmer Rouge and she did. She supported the Khmer Rouge militarily by sending the SAS to train them and suggestint that

    “The more reasonable ones in the Khmer Rouge, (whatever that means), will have to play some part in a future government”

    suggests political support.

    Her support for sheltering Pinochet in the wake of an international arrest warrant being issued by a third country to face allegations of murder of its citiizens is (in)famous.

    So please, let’s have no more semantics about support of regimes etc. If she was disgusted by the actions of such regimes her disgust wasn’t strong enough to prevent her helping them.

  162. It is thee who is playing the semantics here.

    I wouldn’t have turned Pinochet over to a Spanish Kangaroo Court either. Justice was the last thing he had in mind,vengeance the first thing he wanted.

  163. I wouldn’t have turned Pinochet over

    Phantom. I hope you don’t mean that. It is nothing less than an evil sentiment. The man literally killed thousands.

  164. It is thee who is playing the semantics here

    Where Phantom? Please direct. I’m not making a distinction of support for a Khmer Rouge government and support of the Khmer Rouge which you seem to be attempting to do. I’m merely domenstrating how Margaret Thatcher’s government did support the Khmer Rouge and how this compares with Ernest’s

    ‘The definition used to describe an act of violence is chosen by one’s degree of sympathy for the miscreant’

    I wouldn’t have turned Pinochet over to a Spanish Kangaroo Court either

    Interesting how you describe a legally constituted court of law in a democratic country as ‘a Kangaroo Court’ yet describe a military dictator who overthrew a democtatically elected government as creating ‘the conditions for prosperity in that country’ above.

  165. The clear way to say it is that ” she gave support to XXX ” Saying that she supported Pol Pot’s regime leads one to believe that she thought that the regime was desirable and had good policies. She would have thought nothing of the sort.

    The Spanish judge was a mischief maker. Pinochet’s crimes – and they were that – were all committed in Chile. He didn’t do anything in Spain. The Spanish court lacked any proper jurisdiction.

    Why don’t you support the extradition and conviction of Castro? You don’t think that he killed lots of foreigners? You don’t think that he killed any Spanish citizens? Oh, I forgot you think he’s a freedom fighter, so its ok then. Lets give the murderer a medal.

    It is impossible to discuss Pinochet without discussing Castro. The opposition to Pinochet when it comes from the Left ( the real Left, not the left of the ATW moronosphere ) is entirely tactical.

    It may be an uncomfortable fact, but Chile is rich today, and it is a democracy, and it is Pinochet who created the foundation for wealth, and stood out of the way when democracy was restored.

  166. Interesting how you describe a legally constituted court of law in a democratic country as ‘a Kangaroo Court’ yet describe a military dictator who overthrew a democtatically elected government as creating ‘the conditions for prosperity in that country’ above.

    Mind-boggling. Phantom you speak disapprovingly of vengeance but the other day you said you thought screws who beat up a suspect in the Woolwhich case should be promoted.

  167. Yes him, why was vengeance to be applauded in that case, but it was wrong against Pinochet who cleaved thousands?

  168. Petr – I ma afraid that your support of Castro as an Emancipator hardly qualifies you to opine on what is mind-boggling.

    I agree that Pinochet was vile and should have been tried. The Spanish Court however was not the place.

    Tout Le Monde – Thatcher (and other non-Soviet bloc ) support regarding the KR has to be seen in light of the global picture, even if that support was wrong or misguided. Without being seen in context the charge loses a lot of its validity.

  169. He faced allegations of killing Spanish citizens. A bit like the Lockerbie bombers.

    Why don’t you support the extradition and conviction of Castro? You don’t think that he killed lots of foreigners? You don’t think that he killed any Spanish citizens. Oh, I forgot you think he’s a freedom fighter,

    I wasn’t aware of anyone seeking his arrest. If and when it happens I’ll reserve my judgement untill I see the allegations levelled against him. I think he was a freedom fighter. He is now ameglomaniacal benign dictator.

    It is impossible to discuss Pinochet without discussing Castro

    But what we were discussing was Margaret Thatcher’s drawing a veil over the tyrannical murderous actions of Pinochet & the Khmer Rouge and supporting them.

    It may be an uncomfortable fact, but Chile is rich today, and it is a democracy

    Yep, it was also a democracy in 1973. Who know’s what would have happened had the Democratically elected Allende administration not been overthrown by Pinochet’s military dictatorship?

    But again, this is not a Castro – Pinochet contest.

  170. The only forum for a Pinochet trial was Chile.

    The Spanish publicity seeking judge ( who went on trial himself later on ) had no say on what happened in distant lands of which he knew nothing.

    This guy wanted to extradite other foreigners at various points. His megalomania got the best of him

  171. Paul – Thatcher didn’t support the efforts of Pol Pot and his Killing Fields, and she didn’t draw a veil over their murderous actions.

  172. The Lockerbie plane blew up over Scotland, Paul. That’s where the crime happened.

    The crimes of Pinochet took place in Chile. Which is not in Spain.

  173. Without being seen in context the charge loses a lot of its validity.

    I’m sure the Cambodians who lived, died, worked and were tortured under the KR would agree.

  174. Paul – I don’t think you can make an adult argument that whatever British support there was caused those deaths. And failing to recall the far vaster numbers who died under Soviet and Chinese rule in the same Century under Communist systems ignores the context akin to standing on a beach and ignoring the Ocean.

  175. The Lockerbie plane blew up over Scotland, Paul. That’s where the crime happened.

    I’m well aware of that, I’m also well aware that the American Government insisted that the trial should take place in Scotland or the US.

  176. Paul – I don’t think you can make an adult argument that whatever British support there was caused those deaths

    And no one’s arguing that they were what we are are speaking about is support for ‘terrorists’ as per Ernest’d original point.

    Do you agree the the KR terrorised Cambodia?

    And failing to recall the far vaster numbers who died under Soviet and Chinese rule in the same Century under Communist systems ignores the context

    The deaths under the Soviet and Chinese Communist systems were also appalling. Do you think that I would support such atrocities?

    However, Communists and the resultant deaths of Communism have had many words of condemnation here on ATW let’s see where all the moral uprights are when it comes to their heroine supporting the murderers of thousands and millions respectively.

  177. Where would you have wanted the Lockerbie trial to be held?

    International Criminal Court?

  178. The crime took place over Scotland. There was no need to move to another place unless a trial in Scotland was impossible to convene.

  179. Paul – Do I agree that the KR terrorized Cambodia – of course, I don’t think there could be disagreement on that issue.

    I don’t think you support Soviet and Chinese atrocities, but I think you leave them out of the equation in discussing the whys of the Thatcher support in Cambodia.

    And you’ll have to point to where she actually supported the murders of thousands and millions as opposed to military aid which was not directed in support of those murders.

  180. Then why did your gov want it tried in Scotland or the US Phantom?

    I don’t as i don’t claim she supported the murders of thousands and millions. I claimed that she supported the murderers of thousands and millions with those thousands and millions of murders obviously not bothering her too much when she did.

    What phrase did Ernest use? One (wo)man’s terrorist is another (wo)man’s freedom fighter?

  181. It was a US aircraft destroyed in midair on the way to the US so you can make the case for that.

    I’m not sure what the point of this is

  182. Phantom your understanding of militias is equal to your understanding of Americans that own guns.

    In other words nonexistent.

    Please peruse the archives and find ANYWHERE that I said anything about Militias taking up arms against government.

    I have said that the militias spoken of in the second amendment and the right to bear arms not being fringed upon was so to guarantee that militias could be formed by US citizens to over throw our own government if necessary. So did Madison in the Federalist. That is the sole purpose of our right to bear arms. A guarantee of protection against tyranny.

    Your wish to equate this fundamental aspect of our nations founding documents to the IRA only shows how truly stupid or dishonest you are in your position.

    I have never called for armed insurrection, and if I was to ever call for such. Unlike the fucking scum IRA TERRORISTS that you equate now with our founding fathers, the targets would NOT be Civilians as the IRA targeted. They would be those committing the acts of Tyranny, not civilians, not their families.

    Your comparison of our right to bear arms to that of the actions of the IRA puts you in the same mental capacity as Allan.

    How dare you, you pathetic ignorant loadstain.

  183. //you’ll have to point to where she actually supported the murders of thousands and millions as opposed to military aid which was not directed in support of those murders//

    Hardly a strong point. Supporting a murderous regime is bad, even if you don’t directly support its murders, which I think was Paul’s point. All kinds of support – in weapons, training, even political support – facilitates mass murder no matter what you think of the result.

    Surely training the SS would be bad enough. I can hardly hear someone arguing: Ah, but you see, I didn’t give them the Zyklon B.

  184. Noel — When it’s the benign West *cough* doing it it can be explained away each and every time.

  185. The point of it is that it was Spanish citizens that he was accused of murdering .Having said that the point regarding the trial is of minor significance what was important was that he should have faced an impartial fair hearing into the allegations not where the trial would be held.

  186. Noel – it is actually a very strong point, both the type of support and when it was given. She hardly supported them in the context of what was done in the Killing Fields. The limited support was in relation to the then regime in Cambodia fighting the Vietnamese. It was done in the context of the global war against communism.

    The US supported the Soviets in WWII, a necessary evil to defeat a more threatening one. I don’t think people would suggest that support included support for Stalin’s crimes.

  187. The IRA ( citizens ) sought to overthrow the government because they thought it was necessary.

    In your own post above you say things that they could use to justify what they did.

    They were big Second Amendment guys, trying to overthrow the tyranny.

    Like Mao and the Montana Militia and the NRA, they saw guns as the final answer if things did not go their way.

  188. Petr – In a global struggle over the course of decades against the actual evil that was communism, not only did the West make mistakes at times, it backed at times the wrong regimes and committed at times not only negligent errors but at times actual crimes. It was a struggle that was quite often made by the sacrifice of only a few nations while others sat on the sidelines and did little more than criticize those who led the way. Thankfully, you too can enjoy the benefits of it without having to acknowledge that reality.

  189. Nice regurgitation of the most crude bourgeois propaganda imaginable.

    I am not grateful for Western imperialism. I despise it.

  190. t is actually a very strong point, both the type of support and when it was given.

    It’s not when taken in context with the ‘One (wo)man’s terrorist quote.

    She didn’t seem to have problems with the murders of thousands and millions of innocents when political expediency suited so we’ll have no more faux moralism from Thatcherits on ATW about support for terrorism

  191. Petr – So much that you refuse to live in the West and instead make your abode in one of the Workers’ Paradises. Or not.

  192. Paul – I am not a Thatcherite. But is she walked on water you would insist she couldn’t swim.

  193. //It was done in the context of the global war against communism//

    Eh?, but she supported the Khmer Rouge, the ultra communists.

    And that’s also why it hardly bears comparison with the Churchill-Stalin pact: Vietnam wasn’t in any way a threat to Britain or its interests, and – as far as I know – was the lesser of the two evils.

    But I must admit I’d never heard about this Thatcher-Pol Pot pact until this thread, so I’ll say no more. At any rate, what with her buddy Reagan supporting the Contras and practically every genocidal maniac as long as he was of the right colour, this conduct of the blue-rinse warrior shouldn’t surprise anyone.

  194. Paul – I am not a Thatcherite. But is she walked on water you would insist she couldn’t swim.

    I didn’t suggest you were, tou know perfecly well I wasn’t referring to you. The second clause is to facile to warrant serious comment.

  195. But I must admit I’d never heard about this Thatcher-Pol Pot pact until this thread

    I’d say that probably most weren’t Noel and if they were it was a dirty little secret.

    That’s why there’s a diplomatic silence from some of our commentators?

  196. This isn’t the time or place, Paul, but I just wanted to say I found very interesting what you wrote today about Savage and Davison. I’m sure you’ll know how difficult it is for those of us on the outside to imagine what it’s like when friends become political in such a radical way, and are then killed.

    I do know a women who used to visit various INLA characters in Belfast, like Noel Lyttle and Ronnie Bunting. But she was an outsider and only visiting. I think when you see them growing up you understand better what made them become what they did, and their deaths will be all the more poignant.
    I hope you write more about this sometime.

  197. Margaret Thatcher did not support “the Khmer Rouge” and there was no Thatcher/Pol Pot pact.

    The KR split into two factions after it was chased out of Cambodia by the Vietnamese. The less nutty faction, which sat in the UN as the Cambodian representatives, was Democratic Kampuchea. Pol Pot was their enemy and it was this faction which was helped by Britain, the US and others. It was not communist but had good relations with China and was anti-Russia.

    To say that “Margaret Thatcher supported the Khmer Rouge” is way off.

  198. The west didn’t “support Pol Pot”.

    Support was given to the coalition of three factions opposed to the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia. The Khmer Rouge was part of that coalition, but so were two groups made up of people who had opposed the Khmer Rouge.

  199. Except of course Ross they were spooks weren’t SAS

    A court heard that Geidt and another former army officer, Anthony de Normann, had wrongly been accused by Pilger’s documentary of being SAS officers who trained the Khmer Rouge to lay mines

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/may/31/royal-aide-sued-journalist-press-charter

    Whereas Chris Ryan, who was in the SAS has no qualms about admitting that Pilger rattled them:

    In 1984 when I was in the SAS. The worst time was when John Pilger, the foreign correspondent, discovered we were training the Khmer Rouge in the Far East

  200. Petr

    These are Communist countries.

    Would you have any other communist countries to recommend to us?

    Or will the communist utopia, like the other utopia spoken of in these pages, only come about ” in the distant future”?

  201. What’s your opinion of Tito’s brand of Communism which kept Yugoslavia together for fifty years Phantom?

  202. Oh by the way Mahons good to see you on.

    No Phantom your basic grasp is flawed. The IRA were not a militia of ordinary citizens formed to fight tyranny, I don’t believe they ever even claimed such nonsense.

    And comparing the NRA with Mao and a wacko group like the Montana Militia. I am not a member of the NRA never have been never will be, but you fall into this liberal crazy wacko world when it comes to guns.

    The NRA has never promoted violence, the NRA was formed as an advocacy to protect the rights of American citizens to maintain the most valued freedom besides speech and religion that our founders of this nation held. They understood that you can not oppress a people that are well armed.

    One of the very first things the NRA did was to ensure that Blacks in the South were armed and trained how to use those arms to protect themselves against the KKK. Still to this day they are the number one organization recognized in the training of the safe and proper use of firearms.

    You can not get a firearms trainers license without first being certified by the NRA. Cops even have their trainers certified first by the NRA.

    You say you don’t hate or fear guns, that may be true what you are though is worse. You have decided that you don’t need or want a gun, so therefore no one else should need or want one.

    Who the hell are you to decide that one of the founding freedoms of our nation is unnecessary ?

    The gun violence in our nation is committed by criminals, people who should not own firearms because of the actions they have done in their lives. Yet look at the Democrat bastions in our nation where they have made it near impossible for honest legal citizens to own firearms. Have those cities become nirvana’s of peace and nonviolence ? No they have become the killing fields of the violently evil where they know their victims being law abiding citizens are easy pray because they are unarmed.

    If you were open minded you would read John Lotts first book. He believed as you that more guns meant more crime. He was a professor that held strong anti-gun beliefs and set out to prove that theory. Accept when he did his study he found that just the opposite was true. The more guns were made available to the Law Abiding citizens the less gun violence there was.

    Unlike you he was able to step back from his emotions and view the facts. The facts proved his beliefs, your beliefs were false. He has since become one of the strongest advocates for the right to carry.

    Instead of maligning those that choose to exercise their second amendment right why don’t you expand your view and grow. You might just find that the problem is in coddling criminals Not disarming the Law Abiding.

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